Middle Earth as a Parallel Universe

[Olorin]

One little stupid correction that if I don't make will eat me up inside: light is made of photons not electrons. I'm a fan of physics and I find your post quite compelling, Mr. Angmar.

*DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATIONS, DON'T ATTACK ME FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU*

If all the physicists are correct, and there is an INFINITE number of universes, then it would not only be possible for there to be a ME: it would be fact. Think about it, EVERY SINGLE possible universe would be real; hence ME WOULD HAVE TO exist.

Anyway, ME as a parallel universe... Peculiar thought. I usually think about physics and stuff like that, and never once have I thought of ME as a parallel universe. I think it would be pretty cool. Just think about it, people would be living in ME right now, right at the very moment you're reading this.

To make my post even more convoluted, there wouldn't only be one ME, there would be an infinite amount of MEs, one for each possible variable. This leads me to think about alternative ending to the saga. In the infinite amount of universes, an infinite amount of MEs would be different then the one we all know. In an infinite number of universes, Sauron would be in power. In another, Frodo could be dead. Sam could be crowned the new king of Lothlorien. The possibilities are endless... literally.

Oh and to clear up the matter of infinity, for all you people who haven't taken physics or advanced math: infinity is like 0. It can be divided into itself and made no less; hence there is an infinite amount of infinities within an infinity. Just like you can divide 0 by itself as many times as you like with out lessening it.

It's late and it's been a long day... so I hope this makes sense to everyone. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

While this is just pure speculation, if Middle Earth exists as a literary universe, then it must mean other, almost as well developed literary universes exist; the Discworld etc.

So, if Middle Earth is a physical universe as well, would not other literary universes exist in the physical sense as well?

Sure, this may be a bit of topic, but it's just pure speculation.

Now, when Tuor was mentioned in this thread, it got me thinking. How can a four-dimentional human being, even if sundered from the fate of Man, be able to live in a more spiritual universe. Would the Valar be able to keep him alive even when all the reality is stripped off? If it is stripped off.

Valinor is a bit like heaven in a way, possibly not as physical and real as our world. But Tuor was alive in his carnate form. Ok, this is a bit off topic...

Could there even be an Arda universe where the world wasn't broken? What about the laws of physics there? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I hope I haven't written total nonsense and maybe someone will be able to understand what I'm saying [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-Aredhel

[Aethelwine]

Hello everybody!

I've been away for some time, so I didn't look at this topic in a while. But now, after reading all this again, I have a question: Why would these people from another universe, if they exist, have no free will?
Doesn't that sound a bit strange? They don't have a free will. Why not? Because we have it? Again, isn't that a bit egocentric?
Amarie, can you explain to me why they wouldn't have a free will? I really like to know.

Yes, it's like thinking that the earth is the center of the universe, or that there is no other life in the universe.

Precisely! That's just what I meant, Elennar!

Well, I'm hopefully awaiting your replies.

Aethelwine.

[Lush]

Yes, it's like thinking that the earth is the center of the universe, or that there is no other life in the universe.

[sneering voice] I also happen to believe the earth is flat, so wot's yer point?[/sneering voice]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Ok, joking aside, I believe that the notion of parallel universes goes against the notion of free will because the former is a challenge to the notion of the importance of the individual.

In my mind, it's like this: if a (the existence of parallel universes) = b (infinite number of different versions of me in an infinite number of the parallel universes), then a cannot equal c (the notion of free will), because then my entire life should be charted just according to variants and not logic or reason.

Sure, it's interesting, to think about how my life would have turned out had I requested a different dorm last year, to give a standard example, but I do not actually believe that there is another version of me out there, who did choose a differen dorm and who is leading a different life.

If you think there is a step missing from my little equalities set, I'd be more than happy to read about it.

Having written all that, I'd also like to point out that despite me personal aversion of the parallel universe theory, I am do, in part, subscribe to the view of the mystic Emmanuel Swedenborg, whose visions of the universe involved different dimensions, and situations akin to that of the Undying Lands (you can't see something because it's out of your dimensional reach).

Therefore to me, the view of Tolkien's structure of Aman is something that is, in fact, tied closely to my own religious beliefs.

Which is why I like to think I've an open mind on the matter.

[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Aredhel wrote:

How can a four-dimentional human being, even if sundered from the fate of Man, be able to live in a more spiritual universe. Would the Valar be able to keep him alive even when all the reality is stripped off?

In this case I think that the Valar (acting according to the will of Eru) must have been able to keep him alive when Aman was separated from our universe.
And they must have done something similar to keep Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and Sam alive when they went to Aman. How did they mananged to do it? Of course, I don't know. Eru and the Ainur are able to break physical laws when required.

Aethelwine, I think that Lush has explained very weel why free will is impossible in parallel universes. I only wanted to add that in this theory you never chose one possibility. You do all of them, each one in each of the different universes. The basis of free will is that you chose one option (and that you have only one soul or fëa, by the way). That is why parallel universes and free will are not compatible.

In another thread I have found an article of HCIsland, very well written, that I think that explains much better than what I did the idea of Aman being 'hidden in other dimension':

The article is in this thread:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=003122

And this is the link to the article: http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/stringtolkien.htm

I think it is worth reading it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Garulf]

I read somewhere that in an infinite universe anything that can happen will happen. This means that anything is popssible even if there aren't parallel universes

[ September 18, 2003: Message edited by: Garulf ]

[Lathriel]

As a child I loved fantasy so much that I often liked to think that the fantasy world actually existed somewhere out there in the universe. Now this dream has become a small belief. Almost. This idea just makes life more interesting.

I also think most people underestimate the power of the brain.It can probably do much more than we think it can.

[HerenIstarion]

Withholding my own opinion, I do update the thread with regards to 'Shop on the Borders of FairyLand'

[Encaitare]

Yet another thought-provoking revival by Heren! I'm no physicist (I opted to take forensics and astronomy rather than physics like nearly everyone else ) so I'm not going to try and make any sort of brilliant hypothesis. Just one thing I'd like to propose:

Gwaihir offered the quotation,

I think, therefore I am.

And so I suggest: If I think and therefore I am, am I just a thought?

[Lord of Angmar]

Thanks, HI, for bringing this thread back to my attention. In retrospect, my initial 'theory' made no sense, unless one subscribes to a most abstract philosophy of mind-space relations. I still think it would be neat, though, if one's mind could make something physically manifest in another dimension.

[Essex]

Of course there are trillions of parallel worlds/universes out there.

And of course they're all held together by a tower and a rose.......................