"The Hobbit: There And Back Again" To be Renamed "The Battle of the Five Armies"

[Kuruharan]

...here it is.

From the "I knew those rumors were so ridiculous they had to be true" front - I see a dwarf-bearing chariot drawn by rams...which might not have been quite so bad if I wasn't instantly reminded of the silly barrel-riding sequence and at 1:22 I see what can only be an army of dwarves charging in on what can only be a horde of similar rams.

*sigh*

From the "Oh my gosh, how lazy can you get" front - I see orcs that look like they could have come straight from Isengard from The Two Towers (I guess they wanted to reuse the armor to hold down costs) and a song from the previous trilogy.

To say they appear to be phoning it in is an insult to the comparatively high standards of actual phoning it in.

And then we have the end of the trailer. I'm sure New Zealand is a lovely country...but seriously, does the entire economy of the country revolve around these movies now?

[Zigûr]

Beaten me to the punch, Kuru, I was about to post this.

Gut-punch more like.

Dwarves riding rams. For goodness' sake.

"It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing."

[alatar]

Can't wait to get into the heated discussion of which is faster: Radagast's bunny sled or this Dwarven chariot.

[Aganzir]

I'm unimpressed. The amount of recycling old imagery in these films hurts as it is, and now we're even getting Galadriel's feet.

Peter Jackson shows he hasn't improved as a director one bit in these 15 years. Most of the youtube comments seemed doubtful too.

Some scenes did look visually better than the first two films in general, though. And mind you I'm not talking about the CGI and the unrealistic fighting choreographies here.

[Inziladun]

"I will have war!"

Give me a break.

It all seems very much darker than the book. They're trying to build it up to a climax rivaling the big showdown at the Morannon in ROTK. "Recycled" is the best word I can think to describe it. And why does PJ have only two modes with these films: goofy slapstick and overblown dramatics?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And why does PJ have only two modes with these films: goofy slapstick and overblown dramatics?

That's the only two modes I've ever seen in PJ's films anyway. Perhaps he's like that in real life too. Now that I think of it, those modes would make for an entertaining family comedy.

If they wanted a bigger climax they should have done the War of Wrath, not the prequel to the climax of the Third Age.

[Kuruharan]

Another point that adds to the silliness of the rams; the dwarves were shown in the first movie riding large ponies. What is the need to have them riding rams?

Obviously, they do have to ride. They can't just march into battle like they did in the book. That would be silly.

We have to recreate the charge of Rohirrim from ROTK after all.

[Morthoron]

"Peter Jackson has got your goat!"
I snicker with a sheepish grin:
First coneys and sleds to rabbit on,
And just as the plot wore thin,
This new haresy to aggravate ewe --
A film-induced coma
From the barnyard aroma
Wafting above the din.

But Pete shall ram his petty view --
This parody, this jest, this mock --
Down the collective throats of those
Like lambs who wait patiently in the dock,
And blindly submit
While they sit through the sh*t
This fleecing of the flock.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And why does PJ have only two modes with these films: goofy slapstick and overblown dramatics?

I feel like that is something which has become true of all kinds of adventure and capital-r Romance media in general (which we might otherwise clinically term 'speculative fiction'). It all feels like 'soap operas and sit coms but with dragons and robots' to me these days, nothing with that "applicability" which was so valuable to Professor Tolkien.

In my opinion the modern, mainstream Western 'culture industry' may currently be at one of its lowest points in terms of anti-intellectualism and fatuousness (yes I know 'fatuous' is one of my favourite words), turning everything into this sort of homogenous cultural gruel of adaptations, reboots and revivals of older texts and properties which are chewed up and regurgitated as identical, generic slop. As a wise man once said, "I guess if you feed humanity flavourless wallpaper paste for decades then you shouldn't be surprised if that's all they want to eat now." But it's a chicken-and-egg problem really, the industry feeding the consumers and vice-versa. That being said, I think a lot of blame lies with the current intensity of the corporatocratic grip on our politics and economics: lazy, stock storytelling feeds the bottom line a lot more readily than, I don't know, dignity or meaning.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In my opinion the modern, mainstream Western 'culture industry' may currently be at one of its lowest points in terms of anti-intellectualism and fatuousness (yes I know 'fatuous' is one of my favourite words), turning everything into this sort of homogenous cultural gruel of adaptations, reboots and revivals of older texts and properties which are chewed up and regurgitated as identical, generic slop. As a wise man once said, "I guess if you feed humanity flavourless wallpaper paste for decades then you shouldn't be surprised if that's all they want to eat now." But it's a chicken-and-egg problem really, the industry feeding the consumers and vice-versa. That being said, I think a lot of blame lies with the current intensity of the corporatocratic grip on our politics and economics: lazy, stock storytelling feeds the bottom line a lot more readily than, I don't know, dignity or meaning.

And this is precisely the reason I have so little use for the vast majority of films released in the last 15 years or so. I'm only hoping a reboot won't be in the cards for LOTR ever. Noting the trend of such movies, I have no illusion it would be any sort of improvement over PJ, but I fear would instead be an even worse example of hack-and-slash Michael Beyism.

[Smug the Fabulous]

So...the mind of Peter Jackson:
"Pfft! Horses are overrated! A white horse for Radagast like in the books? Nope! Let's have him on a sled drawn by bunnies...Rhosgobel Rabbits, shall we say, eh, loyal book fans?" (wink wink) "And let's have Thranduil riding an elk, cause he's from the woods and who has ever heard of horses in a wood, am I right? And let's now give the dwarves a chariot drawn by rams...oh, Jackson, you've done it again, you masterful storyteller, you!" (Reclines on a chair and looks at the comment section on his Facebook page).

But in all seriousness, the computer effects looked...well, terrible and...
The. Attempts. At. Being. DRAMATIC!

...are still cringey. I have yet to come up with the amount of jokes I had with The Desolation of Smaug trailer. I have a feeling this might be the worst film of them all (though I've only watched An Unexpected Journey and felt like watching DOS for the sake of it, but the fan comments on Peter Jackson's Facebook seriously put me off with the whole "But books and films are different mediums" and the usual nonsense).

Sorry to suddenly barge in on the conversation. This is my first time posting on the site but I just watched this teaser and felt I really needed to say something about it.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Smug the Fabulous

Sorry to suddenly barge in on the conversation. This is my first time posting on the site but I just watched this teaser and felt I really needed to say something about it.

No need to apologise, this is what discussion forums are for!

DoS is ten times worse than AUJ. You've missed nothing not seeing it.

I shouldn't check this thread at work though, remembering all these horrors makes me cringe and sooner or later coworkers will start asking about the funny face.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

DoS is ten times worse than AUJ. You've missed nothing not seeing it.

For me it's a dilemma. I think both films are incredibly flawed but for different reasons.

A lot of commentators online seem to be arguing that three films were necessary for the plot to make sense and so on. I think that would be more true if the screenplays trusted the source material more. One thing I will say for these films is that although both of the ones which have come out so far are about 45 minutes to an hour too long, I don't necessarily object to the different 'episodes' of the original text being given room to breathe.

If I'm to be perfectly honest I'm actually not averse to the current 'trilogy' structure as such, but for it to work it would have to hew more closely to the source material and focus more on characterisation and atmosphere than additional action. If there is one thing these films seem to get praised for with zero substantiation it's the idea of characterisation, since in my view it's either totally generic characterisation (Bilbo and Thorin) or there is no characterisation where there could be (most of the other Dwarves).

We've still got the books, though, haven't we? Books with big pictures of Martin Freeman on the cover.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Books with big pictures of Martin Freeman on the cover.

Galling, isn't it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Galling, isn't it.

Martin Freeman is in The Hobbit? What character does he play? I always thought he'd make an excellent Bilbo Baggins.

[Kuruharan]

What's galling is that many books now have movie imagery plastered all over them.

In my opinion he hasn't made a particularly great Bilbo Baggins.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Yeah, to be honest, Freeman's performance as Bilbo is a bit too deadpan. It's kind of difficult to imagine that this hobbit would one day be Ian Holm's Bilbo.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

I can't even judge Freeman's performances in the context of the horrible screenplays. The worst I can say for sure is that he's drowned out, where perhaps a greater actor could manage to steal or subvert the show, while the rest goes to hell in a handbasket.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Peter Jackson has got your goat!"
I snicker with a sheepish grin:
First coneys and sleds to rabbit on,
And just as the plot wore thin,
This new haresy to aggravate ewe --
A film-induced coma
From the barnyard aroma
Wafting above the din.

But Pete shall ram his petty view --
This parody, this jest, this mock --
Down the collective throats of those
Like lambs who wait patiently in the dock,
And blindly submit
While they sit through the sh*t
This fleecing of the flock.

That's good.

[Mister Underhill]

Well I've been putting it off, but seeing the discussion here I finally watched it.

...

...

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Peter Jackson shows he hasn't improved as a director one bit in these 15 years.

I guess I must be some kind of optimist at heart. When the Hobbit movies finally moved out of legal limbo and into production, I hoped that Peter Jackson had matured as a filmmaker in the intervening years. Unfortunately, it seems he has only come to fully embrace all of his worst instincts, while discarding his few directorial virtues (filming on location, practical effects when possible).

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

In my opinion [Freeman] hasn't made a particularly great Bilbo Baggins.

Again, I was cautiously optimistic when Freeman was cast, but now it's quite clear to me that he is wrong for the role. He has one schtick -- bumfuzzled everyman. God bless him he's working it as hard as he can and presumably socking away a nice retirement nest egg. But Bilbo ain't "everyman".

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Again, I was cautiously optimistic when Freeman was cast, but now it's quite clear to me that he is wrong for the role. He has one schtick -- bumfuzzled everyman. God bless him he's working it as hard as he can and presumably socking away a nice retirement nest egg. But Bilbo ain't "everyman".

He really lost me during the inside the mountain sequence of DoS.

I realize it was not entirely his fault, but everything about his performance was just bad. The Gollum sequence in UJ was pretty good(ish), but the Smaug sequence was just bad.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He really lost me during the inside the mountain sequence of DoS.

I realize it was not entirely his fault, but everything about his performance was just bad. The Gollum sequence in UJ was pretty good(ish), but the Smaug sequence was just bad.

I wouldn't says he's actually bad, it's more that he sort of overplays underplaying it (if that makes any sense).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by tom the eldest
I wonder what the reaction of tolkien community when the movie is released......

I gave up on PJ movies after the first Hobbit movie atrocity (although the Long
expected Party beginning was acceptable).

PJ has shown a long decline from the pretty good FoTR, thru worsening TTT and
RoTK. But afteer the first Hobbit absurdities (including making Goblin Town a laughably improbable scene---in the book the size of goblins, escape from them, etc, are believable in Tolkien's subcreation. PJ just has become more and more cartoonish. Exactly what Tolkien feared of "Hollywoodism".

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I wouldn't says he's actually bad, it's more that he sort of overplays underplaying it (if that makes any sense).

Knocking on a pillar in a diffident attempt to determine if Smaug is still home seems pretty bad to me.

[FerniesApple]

couldnt they at least find some nice stunt feet for Galadriel? those great flapping feet were a real turn off, no wonder Gandalf fainted.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

couldnt they at least find some nice stunt feet for Galadriel? those great flapping feet were a real turn off, no wonder Gandalf fainted.

She's thousands of years old, what do you expect?

In any case, I don't think they made that scene with the intention of turning you on.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

She's thousands of years old, what do you expect?

In any case, I don't think they made that scene with the intention of turning you on.

I dont think they made that scene with the intention of making me imagine Gollum in a long White lacy dress tho.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

In any case, I don't think they made that scene with the intention of turning you on.

With this crew, how can you be sure?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

With this crew, how can you be sure?

*cough* Legolas.

[FerniesApple]

Not to mention whats down Kilis pants

thanks for lowering the tone Jackson.

[Smug the Fabulous]

That's one of the things I read about The Desolation of Smaug that really put me off seeing it...the "what's in my trousers" thing. One of the things I liked about the book was there was a gentle humour, which I saw in An Unexpected Journey had given way to burp and snot jokes. And then we have some penis jokes.
All very subtle...like a herd of charging oliphaunts.

[Belegorn]

From Aristophanes to Peter Jackson, penis jokes never get old.

[Smug the Fabulous]

That is true. My personal favourite example would be "The Penis Song" from "Monty Python's Meaning of Life". But if there's a time when they're really out of place and inappropriate for the material being dealt with, it's a Tolkien adaptation (even if it's being directed by Peter Jackson). Well, that and children's programmes.

[FerniesApple]

I also disliked the 'fleeting nudity' scene in Rivendell. the Dwarves looked like they were cgi generated (could be wrong) but it made me cringe. I HATED all those scenes with the Dwarves in Rivendell, they were crude, rude and totally unfunny. I hated the pained look on Elronds face, Rivendell shouldnt be besmirched by cheap humour. it cheapens the beauty of Rivendell in LOTR in a weird way. imho.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I also disliked the 'fleeting nudity' scene in Rivendell. the Dwarves looked like they were cgi generated (could be wrong) but it made me cringe. I HATED all those scenes with the Dwarves in Rivendell, they were crude, rude and totally unfunny. I hated the pained look on Elronds face, Rivendell shouldnt be besmirched by cheap humour. it cheapens the beauty of Rivendell in LOTR in a weird way. imho.

Then again, everything in the movie looked computer generated. Nothing felt believable in The Hobbit. Every place they were in, there was a sense they were either on a set or performing in front of a green screen, or both...(well, apart from some of the mountains and the place where the wargs were chasing Radagast). There's no sense that what you're seeing is there. You're just seeing some actors in heavy makeup kicking the @#$% out of a bunch of CGI goblins.
Not the most original criticism I put here, because from the reviews I have read, everyone's pretty much said it, including Viggo Mortensen. Just letting out the bitter disappointment I felt when I first watched this.

[FerniesApple]

Yeah me too. but I cant be bothered with anger any more, gone past that into weary indifference.
I would like to see those 'Hunt for Gollum' people have a go at The Hobbit. Low tech seems so refreshing after all this plastic Las Vagas style ME. Give me good old fashioned tramping round real forests in coloured hoods anyday. Even Martin Freeman with a good script and a chance to show what a great actor he is. He is forced to gurn his way through the movies because he doesnt have anything to say and is mostly in the background looking bewildered.

[Smug the Fabulous]

So a better title for this trilogy wouldn't be The Hobbit because the hobbit is more or less in the background, but instead would be:
The Grim and Serious Dwarf trying to claim back his homeland while trying to do an Impression of Viggo Mortensen at some times, but other times he's doing an impression of Sean Bean...: An Unexpected Journey
But then considering the other things going on:
The Series of Various Events which some way tie in with the events of The Lord of the Rings: An Unexpected Journey
Or...
The Hobbit...is somewhere in this film but look at all these cool action scenes: An Unexpected Journey

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And this is precisely the reason I have so little use for the vast majority of films released in the last 15 years or so. I'm only hoping a reboot won't be in the cards for LOTR ever. Noting the trend of such movies, I have no illusion it would be any sort of improvement over PJ, but I fear would instead be an even worse example of hack-and-slash Michael Beyism.

I'm using the excuse that Michael Bey has already been referenced in this thread as an excuse to share this.

On a serious note, this satire does show much of what is wrong with contemporary movie making.

We now return to the regularly scheduled thread.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm using the excuse that Michael Bey has already been referenced in this thread as an excuse to share this.

On a serious note, this satire does show much of what is wrong with contemporary movie making.

We now return to the regularly scheduled thread.

hmm looks like Bay has already made The Hobbit

[Kuruharan]

Just think of what would happen if J.J. Abrams is tapped to do the remake of LOTR and add another notch in his belt of destroying franchises...

Although admittedly, there isn't much left of the pop culture LOTR that wasn't destroyed already.

[Kuruharan]

I'm picking up that bats are important.

We get to have a big showdown in Dol Guldur...

Lots of cheezy one-liners...

Continued march of the Arkenring through Thorin's personality...

Fili (possibly dying) gives his silly rock to elf lady (or maybe it is Kili, even I can't keep them straight)...

Bilbo attempts to recreate Aragorn's (over-rated in my opinion) inspirational speech from RotK...

Orcs somehow look worse and more cgi than ever (one of them even seemed to bend in un-natural and physically impossible ways like a stretchyorc).

Did anybody see anything that surprised them?