TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Galadriel55]

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

[Rikae]

Pitch, just because Legate said it first does not make it an insincere suspicion on my part. If it seems "easy", that's because there is fairly little to examine at this point (note, though, his response to me where he assumes I agreed with him - apparently he didn't read my post very thoroughly but rather jumped to self-defense right away).
I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Galadriel, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can be insensitive at times. However, if you'll look again at my post, it implies just as much about Lottie and her consistency as it does about you, and as for

If you don't like the way I post, say so.

... I did.

[A Little Green]

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone.

I'm starting to notice a rather odd pattern concerning people's attitudes towards the back-and-forth between Legate and Zil. Looking at eg. the following quotes:

Originally Posted by Gal

So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

Originally Posted by Boro

Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role.

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list).

Originally Posted by Pitch, underlining mine

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.

I have a cheesecake and a birthday present to finish, but before I move on to either of those - Gal: a hug. That is all.


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, nice enough time for me to actually start getting impressions about people, which is especially welcome because I often have problems with Day 1s (well, who doesn't). This far however, many of them are impressions that have nothing to do with the actual suspicion of some person: some of them are more like questions about something which I do not understand about the person and it does not have to be evil or good, only strange - and therefore I would like to see it explained.

People who seem genuine to me this far ("genuine" does not necessarily equal "innocent", but at least this far I have no reason to suspect those people):

Rikae - looks straightforward, I can follow her line of thoughts, no problem, does not seem to be manipulative in any way etc.

Nog - looks like his classic self, this far same as above. Although I would like to read more from him in the future, but I am sure there will be something, so I don't worry about that.

Eruhen - not very much, but just from the small post of hers, the feeling is okay. Of course, that might completely turn around once she posts something of substance. This is more like the first impression (and therefore I am not putting that much weight onto it, but if e.g. there were no more posts from her today, this is where I am).

Btw: I haven't been playing for a while, but - I assume we don't have any complete newbies in this game? At least I assume it would be seen on the admin thread...

G55 - I am not saying she could not be questioned, however, from the general behavior I tend to see her as not pretending anything, e.g. her first post just being that of a person who would like to contribute but honestly cannot think of anything clever (compare with: Inzil, below).

Eönwë - seems also more or less genuine to me this far. Will wait for further posting, but up to this point, no problem, nothing suspicious or awkward.

And here we are sliding a bit among the "decision still has to be made..." kind of people...

Lommy - well, to be honest, she could be fake. However, I can relate to what she says - the only question is whether it isn't calculated; but I hope to see more from her.

Boro, Pitch - well, they don't look any suspicious this far, but there is still a lot to determine. I will wait. The more, hmm, complicated players, the more time the analysis requires

Somewhat fishy:

(Originally, I had Greenie here, because her post initially left me with the impression that she seemed to "accuse" or try to "draw accusation" from what I said about Zil and her remark about G55. However, on second reading - sort of "reading it in different tone" in different situation, it looks absolutely normal. So basically, I wait to read more from her.)

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.

Lottie - This is also more like the above case. In fact, it is only the sort of a bit "accusatory behavior" she has which makes me raise eyebrows (but nothing more) and then I don't completely understand the "saying random votes are bad is useless" - I mean, why not? I think it's more substantial than Acolyte speculation, after all; and no, of course nobody expects people to start defending random votes, however, there are people among us who CAN very well cast random votes, and the point of this (at least from my part, but I am rather certain it was also Lommy's and Nog's intention, since that seems obvious) was to warn those people and to prevent random votes from actually happening. But yeah, whatever.

I think I left out somebody - I think Bom also posted - but I got absolutely nothing from that post, so waiting for something more. Please, more posts!

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie

[Galadriel55]

@Legate: no, there are no complete newbies this time.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

And this:

I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question.

"If you suspect her, than say so," but honestly, you're just using the semantics over question-phrasing to defend your reaction as perhaps over-the-top, but an un-wolvish one. So, I'll say it. Looks suspicious.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.

It's truly not WW until there's at least one Agan-Boro dance, right?

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

And I was fine with the discussion at first, but what I didn't want was for people to keep speculating about the Acolyte indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

Indeed...

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

Since it's already going on, I see no need to spell it out.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

See above. Once people left off guessing about the Acolyte, the alternative began to come to the forefront. I may seem cryptic, but it really is pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

x/d with G55 and Boro

[Eruhen]

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eruhen

for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...

Am I right in assuming that Eruhen is playing her/his first game here? If that is the case, I will not wish to vote for her/him toDay, but I would like to give her/him an advice: even if the way you post isn't more suspicious than not, it is deeply annoying and doesn't help a bit. And even if laying low behind the "talkers" is generally more safe for a wolf than being the talk of the town, it can backfire as a plan as well. And we rest would very much like to hear what you think (or what you would wish us to think that you think) and not just nod for "yes, s/he's paying attention, great!".

Happily most of the people have been playing differently from Eruhen, and as someone already noted, this looks like one of the most reasonable D1's in a long time. I'll try to come up with a list of thoughts in the coming few hours (Champion's League football match between Napoli and Chelsea starts in a moment and will take part of my attention to be sure). And I should have ample time after that...

Just a few short comments on recent debates and posts,

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

Lottie may be trying to do her best to find something (anything) suspicious in which case she should be honoured for what she does, but then again I'm not too comfortable with the way she has acted thus far (I'll read her more closely later to try and see whether my spine-reaction has any merit or not).

I think Greenie might be up to something with her suspicion on the behaviour of some with the Legate - Zil -discussion.

Something bothers me with Pitch. There was something early on and now this latest discussion Greenie pointed out... I hope I can say something about what it is when I'm back.



This must be a record game in what comes to people playing against what they themselves declare is reasonable ... and being conscious of that so far as to admit it!


EDIT: Okay, Eruhen is no first-timer then = X'd from that post onwards.

EDIT2: And Eruhen is a he. Thanks.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55.

We've been wolves together in Foley's game. I don't think we were together in other games.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's truly not WW until there's at least one Agan-Boro dance, right?

A Dance With Lions.




Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

Edit: xed since Zil

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitch

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

Well, just I managed to come up with some stuff I hope the wolves didn't/wouldn't come up with, so I don't want to post everything I was thinking about. We don't want to give the wolves ideas how to abuse the Acolyte role, or construct a basis they can later build on to make their own moves, do we? That's the only thing I was after - if you have something to say that is more good for village than for the wolves, do say it. I haven't thought this out 100%, I'm just being cautious about what I say aloud (having once or twice been a sort of Captain Obvious and helped wolves that way).

The random-vote crusade confuses me. I started about them just to say something, kind of as a banter or, like I said back then, to avoid talking about it for the rest of the game. I know Legate and Nogrod are strongly against random votes too, but it surprises me it became such an issue without any random votes (or any votes at all) being cast yet. I would like to make something out of this (just to be sharp and draw conclusions), but it might be just their wordy selves wanting to rant about something.

Speaking of which...

Originally Posted by Lottie

I think Lommy's post is understandable - it was at the very beginning of the Day and it was more useful than banter, which was the other option at that point.

Well to be honest, it was as much banter as useful, I was kind of parodising the habit of saying pseudo useful stuff in the beginning of Day1 and acting as Captain Obvious.

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

Next: seeing who I xed with and a summary of sorts...


edit: xed with everyone after Boro

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone.

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent.

That's not what I was saying though. I was saying that their discussion is important because of its effects, namely the bandwaggoning others.


Are all of these really necessary? (Note: all underlining mine)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).

Originally Posted by Loslote

The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there.

On the other hand, considering that all of these except for Lottie's were posted before Inzil's:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

They don't look as bad as they could. But still, there's definitely overworking of the same point over and over again. Basically, Legate had already said it all in his first post on the matter, but because Inzil still argued back, I suppose they were justified in it, just not to that extent. So I rescind some of my suspicion. And I'm wondering what Inzil thought Legate was getting at before that post if not the same point everyone was belabouring to such an extent until then.


And this still means that Lottie looks bandwaggony, and without a good excuse, since it was definitely and definitively resolved by that point, considering that everyone present except Pitchwife and Boro (on which note, Boro has actually said very little of actual substance so far) had voiced their opinion that any discussion was better than no discussion.

Though the way G55 and Bom phrase their point, i.e. "it's basically pointless, but..." don't seem that great either.


edit: x-ed since Legate's list.

[Rikae]

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!

[satansaloser2005]

What is this madness?!

No, seriously, I need to read this all on my laptop so I can make more sense of all the ranting and such. I will be here more (read, at all) toDay, but I'm still at work and I have a busy evening, so please bear (or bare, if you really must) with me. I'll be back later, but I hate being resounding silence, even if I don't presently have anything to say. That will change this evening.

Or, as they say in Limerick....

Miss Sally was checking the thread
And on it nothing she said
For she had no time
To argue or rhyme
Lest Sally end up truly dead

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

Pardon? I don't think I mentioned that bit from Pitch at all.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Hmm. Both Rikae and G55 look innocent to me. 'course, G55 always looks innocent to me (I don't really know why . . .).

The (apparently - I frequently forget to look at names and end up with a sense of what a controversy is about, but not who ) Legate-Inzil thing is a bit more interesting. I need to reread the whole discussion, but don't really have the time at the moment. *sigh*

[Thinlómien]

Boromir88 - I've been a bit more careful about judging him recently because I don't think I'm as good at reading him as I used to be (or then he's got better at lying ), but this far nothing neither alarming nor especially trust-inspiring.

Sally - we needs one to banter around, methinks. (Not that I generally want banter, but Sally-banter is an essential part of the ww experince and I haven't played in a while.)

Galadriel55 - seems honest enough, but her points are a little weird. Merits watching, I guess.

Shasta - no data yet.

Steve - is under my radar.

Pomegranate - no data yet.

A Little Green - this far seems pretty innocent. Sharp as usual. (Hihi, reminds me of good ol' times when she wasn't a 'downer yet and Nog kept telling me she'd make a brilliant ww player because she's so smart. Awww.)

Rikae - pokes at people, makes points... seems innocent enough right now, but I don't want to judge her yet.

Eruhen - under the radar with Steve.

Pitchwife - makes some weird points and generally isn't especially honest-seeming, but then again I'm kind of sympathetic towards him after that really weird attack from Lottie and Zil's direction.

Lottie - seems maybe the worst this far (I KNOW, Lottie and Day1 suspicion, it's quite lame, but...), her points funnily resemble clutching at straws. Also, she merits people with stuff quite easily and weirdly (like me for contributing in my early posts).

Bom Tombadillo - under the radar with Steve and Eruhen.

Inziladun - his way of creating divisions and opposites, over-usage of italics to emphasise his points, his contradictory actions and willigness to stop talking about the acolyte when a majority of the villagers haven't even appeared - all I can call it is weird. It doesn't really look like a wolf, it doesn't look like a nervous gifted, mostly it looks like a cobbler, but we don't have one unless the acolyte is the acolyte of wolves ie a cobbler (which doesn't make sense given the narrations and the game balance).

Lommy! – I like the exclamation mark, that's all.

Nogrod - seems like typical innocent Nogrod, almost too much so with the patronising rant to Eruhen and all. Ah great.

Legate of Amon Lanc - can't judge him yet, really. Doesn't have the false friendliness of a Legatewolf, but could be he just learnt from always making the same mistake...


edit: xed with all

[Thinlómien]

*waves happily at Sally* Long time no see!

Zil - if your post

Originally Posted by #26

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

doesn't refer to Lottie's previous post some ten minutes earlier:

Originally Posted by #25

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?

then what does it refer to?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

*waves happily at Sally* Long time no see!

Zil - if your post


doesn't refer to Lottie's previous post some ten minutes earlier:



then what does it refer to?

The back-and-forth between Legate and me.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The back-and-forth between Legate and me.

In that case, please ignore what I said about you, Lottie and Pitch... (Although what I said about Lottie is still valid. Now that I reread it it might be she was just poking fun at him, but to me it looked more like a playful accusation.)

[Rikae]

So...

did Inzil really join Lottie's "suspicion" (which I took as a joke) of Pitch for his "manage to", or no? I don't see where he did. Where is this coming from, otherwise?

Also, I'd like to point out that if Nogrod is innocent he will decide that I'm guilty at some point and that I have some complicated scheme up my sleeve that only Nogrod could invent.
If he fails to do so, I'll suspect him.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and Lommy.

[A Little Green]

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Yes, because overlong rants about random votes when none have been cast are not really related to the current game, whereas remarks on those overlong rants are.

Eonwe looks sharp (me likey) and Boro slightly fishy. The latter is part gut-feeling (he seems too laid-back and nice, somehow - I mean, he's always nice, but this time it seems more conscious, sort of) and part because of the way he reacted to my previous post. He neatly downplays his own part in the pattern I wrote about by calling the whole thing shrewd observation and saying he won't vote me today. That was a really sketchy way to explain it, but I'm dead on my feet and need a bed.

Which reminds me - I'm sorry for my lousy contribution toDay, guys, but I must get to sleep, like, now.

[A Little Green]

Agh. Going with the only feeble lead I have -

++ Boro

I'd love to stay and read and discuss and most of all think, and do something a bit smarter than this, but unfortunately I've got to go. I'll be more active toMorrow, I promise. Good Night!

[Bom Tombadillo]

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Yes, because ranting about random votes is just space-filler, but talking about posting and commenting about the posts being space-fillers can lead to getting a better idea of how the ranters (and commenters, for that matter) are playing (which can help lead to suspicion or lack thereof).

[QUOTE=Thinlómien;667405][Pitchwife - makes some weird points and generally isn't especially honest-seeming, but then again I'm kind of sympathetic towards him after that really weird attack from Lottie and Zil's direction.[/QUOTE[

That wasn't an attack by any means. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'. This seems to me like a Lommy-wolf overreacting to what she perceives as suspicion on her packmate, and responding by agreeing that he's suspicious but also throwing the 'attack' into poor light. I'd like to, first of all, keep a closer look at their interactions, but also note that Lommy is now one of my top suspicions.

Lottie - seems maybe the worst this far (I KNOW, Lottie and Day1 suspicion, it's quite lame, but...), her points funnily resemble clutching at straws. Also, she merits people with stuff quite easily and weirdly (like me for contributing in my early posts).

It's Day One. There are no suspicions that won't seem like grasping at straws. If I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water, but as it happens, I've been playfully poking and examining a group of people who posted eerily similar and abnormal rants. I didn't say you contributed, or anything nearly so concrete. I said your post made sense because of when it was posted, and that, looking at the context, was even one of the more substantial posts - one of the more, not actually substantial.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.

This.

[Thinlómien]

Uggh, I should wake up in less than 8h, so better quit ww now. I don't really have much to add - maybe just that I still think Lottie's comment about Pitch sounded like a "lookee, lookee, he made a slip!" and if someone agreed she'd be ready to go "exactly, that's what I said!" but if someone questioned her reasoning she'd be saying "I was just making fun of him". I'll be back well before the DL and vote then based on all the evidence that has piled up while I've been sleeping and attending my morning lecture...


edit: xed with Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A few small updates.

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

Apart from what I said about Lommy now, Greenie's vote made me look again at Boro. I must say there is something which I also find unsettling about him, but it is something different - mainly his sort of, hmm, apologetic tone in regards to other players. Like this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point )

Also, a bit from the same post:

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

That's also somewhat similar - the last sentence, I mean - he did that before toDay, of course yes, you can rule out people you don't want to lynch, but somehow this can have two edges... you can rule out people, but you can also be nicey-goodey to people... which somehow does not fit with Boro for me. Not this kind of behavior.

Originally Posted by Eruhen

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.

Okay, my apologies, shall bear that in mind.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

EDIT: x-ed after Bom

[Galadriel55]

A leeeetle short update:

I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd. I'll try to be very careful and objective here, because looking at my slight apprehension from the side it could be an effect of some wolves muttering "Lottie is bad, go lynch her". And from what I know about WW games this isn't the first occurance of this either. I'm going to do my best to keep my ground and separate my own thoughts from the others' about Lottie.



Everyone else either said too little or the impression didn't stand out (you're all sensible and have some good points and no good/bad vibe that stands out, I won't list you all individually and repeat this).

[Nogrod]

Okay. I'm really confused with Inzil and I need to think and probably rethink before I write anything on him. But if you Inzil would like to explain, it would be fine.


But two short ones first.

I said earlier that Pitch was bothering me in the early game and I went back to have a look. And I think I know what it was, even if I'm a bit less sure of it's merit.

He opened with bantering in IC

you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord.

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through... coupled with the odd way of saying that we "manage to kill our seer" in the same post.

Well after a check I realised that his character is from Umbar so north from Harad and the IC is correct. And reading Lommy point out the sarcasm in his point about us managing to kill our seer opened my eyes to that too, and I find it hard to read it otherwise anymore.

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case. And this actually bothers me still.

So part of my initial bad feelings about Pitch were clearly unfounded, but part I think still call for attention and I need to think about it more before the Day ends.



What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well.

[Rikae]

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.

EDIT: X'd with a Nog.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Apart from all that, I think Lommy's suspicion of Lottie based on her comments about Pitch is a reach.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

I think there are better ones to suspect than you. Steve comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

It's no defense, but Bom, evil or good, pretty much does this every time. It's gotten him lynched many a time.

x/d with Rikae

[Eönwë]

Ok, I'm going to sleep now, and should be back in about 7/8 hours to vote.

I'm too tired to make a proper list, but here are some final thoughts:

Legate looks good to me now. He speaks sense and I agree with most of what he says.

I'm still confused about Inzil. Hopefully he'll explain what he was thinking earlier by the time I come back.

Nogrod makes me uncertain. I seem to remember his innocent self being more controversial and and attacking on Day 1, but maybe things have changed since I've been gone.

Greenie seems innocent enough. She makes good points and seems like she's trying to work for the innocents, so I'll trust her for now.

Lommy worries me a bit. I can never get a good read on her, but something in her posts makes me uneasy.

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.

Bom is far under the radar.

G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

Pitch seems a bit self-conscious. Don't know whether this makes him look good or bad.

Rikae seems to be adopting her regular tone, and so far she seems clear and honest, so I'm liking her at the moment.

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

Sally has said far too little for me to say anything about her.

I've never played with Eru, so, at least for today, I'm willing to give his "I'll just watch" the benefit of the doubt, even though it seems pretty bad.



Ok, so I was wrong. It has basically become a list.


edit: x-ed with Nog's last post and fixed spellings

[Nogrod]

Lottie then. (I'm checking people that I've had some bad feelings about one by one - if my method of picking just a few people at the time does seem a bit odd)

She admits her "manage to kill the seer" -note was semi-banter, but the way she phrases it looks interesting.

It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'

So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it? Okay. This might be a linguistic issue (non-native speaker here) and you should correct me if I'm wrong, but to me that phrasing looks pretty odd.

Her rant against random-vote talk and the implication that the ones doing it are just filling space with nothing to say while trying to look helpful is clearly misguided for two reasons (read these Lottie)
1) That talk needs to be made in every game so that random votes don't happen. And it needs to be stated in no unplain terms. After it is done and the general mood is outspoken, no wolf wishes to dare a random vote. It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).
2) Of all people you say that Legate and I are the ones who try to hunker down and stay ambivalent and just fill space with saying nothing! Really?
Really?

And well, like Eönwë pointed out, it seems pretty funny she is unhappy with people filling space with "self-evidencies" and does it herself adding the N'th explanation why the Acolyte discussion is okay... But well, most of us are guilty of that this Day. (It's been a weird Day in that. )

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

Does anyone get what I mean?

Also, I think she is over-reacting to Lommy's suspicions, to put it mildly

If I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water

But like Inzil, I find her first and foremost acting strangely. In Lottie's case that would mean being very jumpy at times and at the other time poking here and there...


I see Inzil has posted... enough right now, back soon.

[Pitchwife]

So I fell asleep after dinner and wake up when it's nearing bedtime. Good it's not DL yet.

Lommy, which of my points seem "weird" to you?

G55's outburst against Rikae feels pretty genuine to me, and I don't quite get what Boro thinks was so over-the-top about it - I mean, if she had the impression that Rikae was trying to suggest Lottie suspect her, being outraged is an understandable reaction; and as Rikae's post looks just like that on the surface, who's to blame her. (Only, knowing Rikae a bit, that would have been remarkably unsubtle.)

Originally Posted by G55 about Zil

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

That's actually a good point. Wolves usually love discussing rules and technicalities rather than discussing people, they're great for talking a lot without saying much.

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes?

Originally Posted by Nog

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through...

You want to read up on the Corsairs of Umbar. We're the only pure Gondorians left - that rabble up north are just mudbloods.

Originally Posted by Nog

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case.

Isn't it?

Originally Posted by Rikae #27

I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation [...] In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts

Originally Posted by Eönwë #31

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion.

How would you describe what's going on here?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Yeah, not exactly happy that acknowledging a person's good observation makes you too nice to not be evil, but it doesn't look like a bad/wolfy vote.

Originally Posted by G55

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

Weird is a pretty common Lommyism. I know, because I've harped on her before to stop using it if she's suspecting someone.

Originally Posted by G55

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd.

(bold my emphasis).

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it.

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

And her defense for the rant comes dow to semantics, not liking the way Rikae phrased the question to Lottie. Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

Edit: Crossed since Inzil's post #72.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nog

So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it?

No, what Lottie is saying is that Zil's post that followed hers didn't have anything to do with her poke/attack/whateveryouwannacallit, unlike Lommy had supposed.
FWIW, I was mildly annoyed by Lottie's failure to get my sarcasm, but I didn't think of it as an "attack" until Lommy, ironically, blew it up into one.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

In which way would you say has Lottie acted like a bold wolf? I fail to see where she's done anything particularly bold yet.

[Rikae]

Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Isn't it?

How would you describe what's going on here?

I'd describe them just as what they stand for.

So, Rikae is saying that Legate is right in stating that there should be conversation (defending the Acolyte discussion), and that she disagrees with the way Zil & Bom post empty posts (aka posts that don't get us any further, I guess?)

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).

But "piling onto easy suspicion in the Legate - Inzil case"? Nope.

To me those doing it are the ones who jump on it (the "controversy" between the two) and parrot things like "that is the interesting thing toDay" - implying that we should concentrate on them. That's "piling up" for me. Pointing at that discusiion as being the one to pay heed to (while ignoring other possibilities).

Some did do that, but I think not Rikae or Eönwë.

[Pomegranate]

Blood! Panic!. She faints, and it takes this amount of time for her to be waken up by the support of smelling salts and one particularly handsome soldier who has no role in this game whatsoever. She leaves him hoping for something that will never happen while she goes to hunt for spies.

...that is, Real Life will probably make (and has already made) toDay an extremely inactive one for me, apologies for that. With a lot of new players (new to me, that is) it would take a lot more time than I have to make any profound analyses about people. However, to share some gut feelings that were called for:

I agree with Boro seeming slightly less aggressive and energetic than the last time I played with him, enough to seem non-usual. Hence I feel that Greenie's vote was understandable and that makes her send positive vibes for me. Also this kind of non-explained but apparently with some reason behind it -vote seems rather like her.

Lottie seems more productive now than when I've experienced her as a wolf, so this is an opposite case to Boro's.

Love to Nogrod for

It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).

, this relatively new linguistics student got all excited about that point. I think that sounded genuine, though I haven't played with this active Nogrod and I'm assuming he's just the same when he's a wolf. Just as convincing, that is. And I actually do think that there was enough discussion on random votes so that any will now seem relatively suspicious.

G55 jumps, but it seems genuine and I won't hold it against her this time, realising it's probably pretty typical of her.

That is all I've got for now, I'm afraid. Will try to make my way back enough before the deadline so that I'll avoid last-minute votes and still can actually read over things more carefully.

edit. x/ed with Nogrod