Tom and Goldberry. . . ?

[Bêthberry]

Yes, indeed, burrahobbit:

Don't trust everything that you see on the internet.

*curtsies to your way with words*

Bethberry

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[burrahobbit]

I like the distinction that you make between Maia and Ainur. Tom is certainly not a Vala or a Maia. He could be an Ainu, but Melkor was the first of them to come into Arda, and Tom was in Arda before Melkor.

[*Varda*]

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Don't trust everything you see on the Internet

Perhaps you missed the part where i said "Although I'm somewhat skeptical about this".

Although this article wasn't just any rubbish off the Internet it did include a lot of references etc.(although it'd be more useful if i had the books).

I commented on it just to see what people thought of the idea.

To summarise pretty much what it said -

Goldberry wears green, as does Yavanna (I thought that was pointless - many people wear green. Does that make them Yavanna?)
Tom has no temptation with the ring and Aule made all substances ie minerals, metals.
Neither Tom or Aule are particularly posessive.

The writer also feels the ability to dominate the ring indicates a Vala.

None of this, of course explains why on earth Aule and Yavanna would be in the Old Forest in the first place.

I personally don't believe Tom is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna, but i thought it was an interesting idea and that's why i brought it up.

~*Varda Elentari*~

[burrahobbit]

I saw that. I could refute it much more than you have, but I am lazy and won't. I would have refuted it last night, but I am lazy and don't take that particular argument seriously.

[the phantom]

Love reading your posts burrahobbit! I also agree that it isn't really possible to classify Tom. I've always kind of equated Tom with Arda, like he's the embodiment of Middle Earth. At Elrond's council something is said like "Tom cannot resist the enemy unless that power is within the earth itself", or something like that. Goldberry? I guess she's the embodiment of other things in ME, rivers, rain, maybe flowers too. Anyway, I don't care. Tom is just Tom and he's cool.

[burrahobbit]

I think that I have just completely changed my opinion of saying what Tom is. Do you know what Tom is?

Goldberry: Tom is.

Before anyone thinks otherwise, I'm not saying this to be flip, it fits in later.

Let's figure out what we know about Tom.

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

When did the Dark Lord come from Outside?

Melkor too was there from the first

The Dark Lord came in right away. The Dark lord was the first in, even.

What else was around when the Valar came in?

But when the Valar Entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on pointto begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark.

Nothing else was around when the Valar came in, save only Eä itself.

How can Tom manage to be around before the Dark Lord when the Dark Lord was the first thing into Eä?

I would say, now, that it is because Tom is Eä, or at least an embodiment thereof.

Power to defy our Enemy is not in [Tom], unless such power is in the Earth itself.

Eä: The World, the material Universe; Eä, meaning in Elvish 'It is'

Tom is.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[burrahobbit]

Thanks, the phantom, I love writing them. Your post has inspired me, thanks.