Translations - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elenglin · 03-18-2002, 01:51 PM

Why is english so hard?
Why do I must to do all those typos??

Grr, I say. Grr.

03-18-2002, 02:20 PM

Hello!

I can give you the translation of the poem in dutch (yeah, it's even translated in dutch, amazing in'it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

Drie Ringen voor de Elfenkoningen op aard',
Zeven voor de Dwergvorsten in hun zalen schoon,
Negen voor de mensen, die de dood niet spaart,
Eén voor de Zwarte Heerser op zijn zwarte troon
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn,
Eén Ring om allen te regeren, Eén Ring om hen te vinden,
Eén Ring die hen brengen zal en in duisternis binden,
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn.

A so-so translation would be:

Three Rings for the Elvenkings on earth,
Seven for the Dwarvenlords in their beautiful halls,
Nine for the humans, who aren't spared from death,
One for the Dark Ruler on his black throne,
In Morder, where the shades are,
One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,
In Mordor, where the shades are.

Fortunately the last part is almost the same
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

When I can find some more time, I'll try to look op the translations for some names and places...null

Orodhromeus · 03-18-2002, 02:28 PM

Here's the french:

The Lord of the Rings = Le Seigneur des Anneaux
FotR = La Communauté de l'Anneau
TTT = Les Deux Tours
RotK = Le Retour du Roi

Baggins = Sacquet
Took = Touque
Strider = Grands Pas (=big footsteps)
Hobbiton = Hobbitebourg
The Shire = La Compté
Bag-End = Cul-de-Sac (sac=bag)
Mirkwood = Forêt Noire (=black forest)
Mount Doom = La Montagne du Destin (destiny again)
Misty Mountains = Monts Brumeux
Weathertop = Mont Venteux (=Windy Mountain)
Ringwraiths = Esprits Servants de l'Anneau (serving spirits of the Ring)
Man = Homme
Dwarf = Nain
Bilbo = Bilbon
Frodo = Frodon
Drogo = Drogon
Shelob = Arachne (I don't like that one)
Rivendell = Fondcombe

The poem (minor corrections to Melian's version):
Trois Anneaux pour les Rois Elfes sous le ciel,
Sept pour les Seigneurs Nains dans leurs demeures de pierre,
Neuf pour les Hommes Mortels déstinés au trépas,
Un pour le Seigneur des Ténèbres sur son sombre trône,
Dans le Pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres.
Un Anneau pour les gouverner tous
Un Anneau pour les trouver
Un Anneau pour les amener tous
Et dans les ténèbres les lier
Au pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres.

There you go. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Maikadilwen · 03-18-2002, 04:14 PM

And in Danish, as promised. Phew, this translation really sucks:

Tre har elvernes konger i dybeste skove,
Syv har dværgenes herrer i sale af sten,
Ni har mennesket dødeligt, dømt til at sove,
Én har mørkets fyrste for ondskab og mén
I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge.
Én ring er over dem alle,
Én ring kan finde de andre
Én ring kan bringe dem alle,
I mørket lænke dem alle
I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge.

Probably something like this:

Three have the elven kings in deepest woods
Seven have the dwarf lords in halls of stone
Nine has mortal man, doomed to sleep
One has the prince of darkness for evil and hurt
In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood
One ring is above them all
One ring can find the others
One ring can bring them all
In darkness chain them all
In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood

I really don't get the thing about the nine and the "doomed to sleep" thing. That's one thing they didn't do.

Lord of the Rings = Ringenes Herre
Baggins = Sækker
Samwise Gamgee = Samvis Gammegod
Strider = Traver
Gollum = Gollum
Hobbiton = Hobbitrup
(The)Shire = Herred(et)
Mirkwood = Dunkelskov (skov = wood)
Mount Doom = Dommedagsbjerget (bjerg = mountain)
Misty Mountains = Tågebjergene
Bree = Bri
Hobbit = Hobbit
Ringwraiths = Ringånder (ånd = ghost,wraith)
Orc = Ork
Troll = Trold
Man = Mand/menneske
Human = Menneske
Elf = Elver
Dwarf = Dværg

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

Birdland · 03-18-2002, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Bag End = Cul-de-Sac(in French)

Orodhromeus, I had to laughed when I saw that! In America, a "cul-de-sac" is a fancy term we use to describe a dead end street in a suburban housing development.

Kind of ironic laughter, though, since the countryside where I grew up is now covered with housing developments, with lots of "cul-de-sacs", but alas, no Bag Ends. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Gabo Darvas · 03-19-2002, 02:26 AM

Though I've learnt French at high school I haven't tried to translate it... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I really like and respect French language. It's beautiful I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Hobbitebourg is a cute word. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Orodhromeus · 03-19-2002, 03:25 PM

LOL, Birdland! Actually "cul-de-" designs the end of something, or the bottom of something. But to use the entire "cul-de-sac" for something that's not even close to "sac" (Bag) is far off!

Indeed, I find Hobbitebourg beautiful too. I couldn't understand why it wasn't what was used in English, I even find it more beautiful than Hobbiton.

Some to complete the list:
Brandybuck = Brandebouc
Brandywine = Brandevin
Crickhollow = Creux-de-Cirque (!!!)
Uruk-Hai = Ourouk-Hai
Ugluk = Ouglouk (replace u with ou)
Gamgee = Gamegie
Gaffer = l'Ancient (=the Ancient)
Isildur's Bane = Le Fléau d'Isildur

Birdland · 03-19-2002, 11:16 PM

Orodhromeus - Hey, if you want something to sound better than it really is, give it a French name! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

So can we get any Greek translations? Can they be spelled phonetically with the Latin alphabet? (Can't read the Greek alphabet. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

Melian · 03-22-2002, 07:07 AM

Hi! I´m glad to be back! I´ve been reading your posts and I agree about Hobbitebourg. Sounds really nice!

Orodhromeus · 03-22-2002, 09:49 AM

Well, however strange may it appear, I've lony read LotR in French & English, even though I'm Greek! But I guess I'll be able to get a list with the greek equivalents...

Kalimac, you just transcribed phonemically how the Russin sounds in latin alphabet didn't you? I'm going to do the same with the Greek, though I think, as with the French and any other language, that it messes a lot if you don't hear it spoken.

Kalimac · 03-23-2002, 01:15 AM

Orodhromeus (sorry if I misspelled that!) yes, I just wrote it phonetically in Latin characters - I've got a Cyrillic font but don't know how many people would be able to read it, and it's not much fun if you can't even get an approximate idea of how it sounds. Hmm, maybe I should go back and put the Cyrillic in there as well...what are the Greek equivalents? Looking forward the seeing those [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] - can't imagine what the Shire names would be translated like, especially. The French names are lovely - the only one that threw me was "Le Fleau d'Isildur." I don't know, but "fleau" just doesn't sound quite as *weighty* as "bane." (I don't know any French, just talking about the sounds). Is that what it translates to literally or are there other meanings for "fleau?"

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Orodhromeus · 03-23-2002, 07:47 AM

Indeed, I'd translate "fléau" (pronounced flé-O, always stressed at the last vowel) as plague. It can be used for a disease or for anything negative (as the swarm of locusts in the Exodus of the Bible). But there's no closer word to translate "Bane" (to my knowledge).

My situation is a bit complicated, it's going to take a while to find it in Greek... Please be patient. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Orodhromeus · 03-24-2002, 05:41 AM

In what follows:
"dh" stands for the sound "th" in 'the',
"th" stands for the sound "th" in 'thief',
"ch" stands for the sound of a stressed "h" in 'hack'.

At least here's the Ring poem (phonemically transcribed):

Tria dhachtylidhia echoune i Xotiki i Vasiliadhes katou,
Efta i Nani Archondes palatia pou choune mes ta pertadhia,
Ennia i Anthropi i Thniti pou choun ti mira tou thanatou,
Ena o Mavros Archondas pou vasilevei sta skotadhia,
Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.

Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena.
Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena.
Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.
____

Xotiko = Elf (the word 'elf' is of scandinavian origin and has no real equivalent in Greek; Xotiko mostly stands for fairy tale creature)
Nanos (plural Nani) = Dwarf
Hobbit = Hobit
Ringbearer = Dhachtylidhokouvalitis (long, isn't it?)
Middle-Earth = Mesi-Gi

LotR = O Archondas ton Dhachtylidhion
FotR = I Syndrofia tou Dhachtylidhiou
TTT = I Dhyo Pyrgi
RotK = I Epistrofi tou Vasilia

The character names have been kept intact (in usual Greek translation style, which is often annoyingly revealing of the original tongue the book was written in...).

Elenglin · 03-25-2002, 02:30 AM

And some Finnish again:

Fotr = Sormuksen ritarit ('The knights of the ring')
Ttt = Kaksi tornia
Trotk = Kuninkaan paluu

Isildur's bane = Isildurin turma

..and more to come!

Eärendil · 03-25-2002, 05:12 AM

More Swedish:

Lotr - Sagan om Ringen (The Tale about/of the Ring)
Fotr - Sagan om Ringen / Ringens Brödraskap (The Tale about/of the Ring / The Brother/Fellowship of the Ring)
Ttt - Sagan om de Två Tornen (the Tale about/of the Two Towers)
Trotk - Sagan om Konungens återkomst (The Tale about/of the Return of The King)

I have never understood where the Swedish translator find the words "the tale about/of" in the English original title, but anyway..... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Isildur´s bane - Isildurs bane

Birdland · 03-25-2002, 05:21 AM

Orodhromeus - is "Dhachtylidhiou" the actual word for "ring" in Greek, or am I being too literal?

And in the last stanza of the poem, the "One ring to rule..." part, is the translator reiterating the word "One" at the end of each line?

Sitting there puzzling over the words, trying to match them up to the English terms, is fun. Kinda like looking at a LoTR Rosetta Stone.

Orodhromeus · 03-25-2002, 09:37 AM

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I see there are some very attentive posters at the Downs! I guess it comes from the attempts of learning sindarin & Black Speech using only the Fellowship of the Ring poems!

"Dhachtylidi" is the actual word for Ring; the suffix "-iou" shows possessive - sorry if that's not exact, grammar has never been my strong point. "-iou" along with "tou" translates "of the". Nouns, like verbs, are inclined in Greek - as in Latin or elvish et al.

Indeed, "Ena" (=One) is repeated at the end of each couplet. That's a literal translation:

Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena.
One to rule them all and to find them, One.

Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena.
One to bring them all with dark magic, One.

Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.
In the land of Mordor where shadows live.

I agree it's a rather hasty translation. Actually it's very bad.

While we're speaking of translations, I have another question which concerns style. IMO, one of the things that make Tolkien grate is his writing style. It makes things epic, the use of old english adds to that. It's not plain narration. It's a style comparable to the Iliad or Odyssey, two of mankind's greatest epics. My question is, how well is this style rendered in the translations in your respective languages, provided you've read it in English?

To answer on my behalf, the French translation does not only little to follow Tolkien's style but is one of the worst translations I've ever seen. It's full of mistakes: orthograph, disposition, omissions, counter-senses, bad translations... Éomer is written Eomir in the same page; in dialogues when the speaker changes you don't realize it until you've read half of what he's said because >> has been used instead of << ; when a character quotes another, closing brackets are ommitted; "son of Thengel Théoden" is translated "Théoden's son Thengel". I can make a whole list of the terrible mistakes the French edition has!!! And it's been translated only one, in the 50s!

As for the Greek one, I can't tell much. The poem is teribly translated. I personally believe Tolkien's style cannot be transposed in another language without losing a major part of the spirit & style. What do you think?

Maikadilwen · 03-25-2002, 10:47 AM

And some more to the Danish translation:

FOTR = Eventyret Om Ringen = The Tale Of The Ring

TTT = De To Tårne

ROTK = Kongen Vender Tilbage = The King Returns

Middle Earth = Midgård
Brandywine = Brændevin

Birdland · 03-25-2002, 11:22 AM

Having no other language but English, I can only assume that every culture has it's epic or formal style of speech or writing.

I would say that Tolkien is using the formal style of speech in his dialog, particularly with the the Men, Elves, and Dwarves. The Hobbits are mostly using a more casual form of 19th or early 20th Century rural speech, and characters like Sam and the Gaffer, are rendered in a rural dialect. (Saying "taters", instead of "potatoes", for instance.)

And Gollum! Well, his speech, with the drawn out "ssssss", suggest an almost reptilian form of speech, which suggest evil very nicely.

Tolkien's descriptive writing is pretty much set in the 19th/early 20th century form. I think his writing style is great. Some authors can really get bogged down in descriptions. Tolkien's visualizations are just right, poetic and rich, but not verbose.

I'm sure these forms could all be translated in other languages, if the translator can get into the "spirit" of the book. But maybe I'm wrong. Do they have an equivalent to written "dialect" in French or Greek? Would a King speak like "a King" in a book, and not like a peasant? How would you suggest the word "The Shire" in another language, since "Shire" in English immediately give a picture of a peaceful, rural setting, but wouldn't suggest anything to a Japanese or Spanish reader.

I'm really missing something, not knowing another language. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Sîdhrîs · 04-07-2002, 12:43 PM

I've read the books in English, French and German and each version is special in its own way, but of course nothing compares to the original version.
The translations in the books I've read have been mentioned already, but I'm also learning Latin and so I decided to translate the poem into Latin, just for fun:

Dominus anulorum

Tres anuli pro regibus divarum sub caelo,
septem pro dominis nanorum in suis porticibus lapideis
novem pro hominibus mortalibus, damnati ad moriendum
unus pro Domino Atro in sua sella atra
in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent.
Unus anulus ad omnes regendum. Unus anulus ad omnes reperiendum,
unus anulus ad omnes portandum et ad illos alligandum in tenebris
in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent.

Of course I'm not an expert, but I've been doing Latin for six years now, so I think it's mostly correct.
By the way, does anybody have the Italian translation?

Birdland · 04-07-2002, 01:10 PM

Wow, it's beautiful in Latin. And I can almost recognize some of the words from my Spanish.

Yes, Italian! More! More!

03-18-2002, 01:51 PM	#41
Elenglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 24	Why is english so hard? Why do I must to do all those typos?? Grr, I say. Grr. __________________ "Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi. "Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.

03-18-2002, 04:14 PM	#44
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 521	And in Danish, as promised. Phew, this translation really sucks: Tre har elvernes konger i dybeste skove, Syv har dværgenes herrer i sale af sten, Ni har mennesket dødeligt, dømt til at sove, Én har mørkets fyrste for ondskab og mén I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge. Én ring er over dem alle, Én ring kan finde de andre Én ring kan bringe dem alle, I mørket lænke dem alle I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge. Probably something like this: Three have the elven kings in deepest woods Seven have the dwarf lords in halls of stone Nine has mortal man, doomed to sleep One has the prince of darkness for evil and hurt In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood One ring is above them all One ring can find the others One ring can bring them all In darkness chain them all In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood I really don't get the thing about the nine and the "doomed to sleep" thing. That's one thing they didn't do. Lord of the Rings = Ringenes Herre Baggins = Sækker Samwise Gamgee = Samvis Gammegod Strider = Traver Gollum = Gollum Hobbiton = Hobbitrup (The)Shire = Herred(et) Mirkwood = Dunkelskov (skov = wood) Mount Doom = Dommedagsbjerget (bjerg = mountain) Misty Mountains = Tågebjergene Bree = Bri Hobbit = Hobbit Ringwraiths = Ringånder (ånd = ghost,wraith) Orc = Ork Troll = Trold Man = Mand/menneske Human = Menneske Elf = Elver Dwarf = Dværg [ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ] [ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ] __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

03-19-2002, 02:26 AM	#46
Gabo Darvas Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hungary Posts: 23	Though I've learnt French at high school I haven't tried to translate it... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I really like and respect French language. It's beautiful I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Hobbitebourg is a cute word. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "...szívem gazdagabb, / Mint nyelvem: abban bizonyos vagyok."

03-22-2002, 07:07 AM	#49
Melian Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	Hi! I´m glad to be back! I´ve been reading your posts and I agree about Hobbitebourg. Sounds really nice! __________________ "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."

03-23-2002, 01:15 AM	#51
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Orodhromeus (sorry if I misspelled that!) yes, I just wrote it phonetically in Latin characters - I've got a Cyrillic font but don't know how many people would be able to read it, and it's not much fun if you can't even get an approximate idea of how it sounds. Hmm, maybe I should go back and put the Cyrillic in there as well...what are the Greek equivalents? Looking forward the seeing those [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] - can't imagine what the Shire names would be translated like, especially. The French names are lovely - the only one that threw me was "Le Fleau d'Isildur." I don't know, but "fleau" just doesn't sound quite as weighty as "bane." (I don't know any French, just talking about the sounds). Is that what it translates to literally or are there other meanings for "fleau?" [ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-18-2002, 02:20 PM	#42
Sidh Guest Posts: n/a	Hello! I can give you the translation of the poem in dutch (yeah, it's even translated in dutch, amazing in'it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) Drie Ringen voor de Elfenkoningen op aard', Zeven voor de Dwergvorsten in hun zalen schoon, Negen voor de mensen, die de dood niet spaart, Eén voor de Zwarte Heerser op zijn zwarte troon In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn, Eén Ring om allen te regeren, Eén Ring om hen te vinden, Eén Ring die hen brengen zal en in duisternis binden, In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn. A so-so translation would be: Three Rings for the Elvenkings on earth, Seven for the Dwarvenlords in their beautiful halls, Nine for the humans, who aren't spared from death, One for the Dark Ruler on his black throne, In Morder, where the shades are, One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them, In Mordor, where the shades are. Fortunately the last part is almost the same [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] When I can find some more time, I'll try to look op the translations for some names and places...null

03-18-2002, 02:28 PM	#43
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Here's the french: The Lord of the Rings = Le Seigneur des Anneaux FotR = La Communauté de l'Anneau TTT = Les Deux Tours RotK = Le Retour du Roi Baggins = Sacquet Took = Touque Strider = Grands Pas (=big footsteps) Hobbiton = Hobbitebourg The Shire = La Compté Bag-End = Cul-de-Sac (sac=bag) Mirkwood = Forêt Noire (=black forest) Mount Doom = La Montagne du Destin (destiny again) Misty Mountains = Monts Brumeux Weathertop = Mont Venteux (=Windy Mountain) Ringwraiths = Esprits Servants de l'Anneau (serving spirits of the Ring) Man = Homme Dwarf = Nain Bilbo = Bilbon Frodo = Frodon Drogo = Drogon Shelob = Arachne (I don't like that one) Rivendell = Fondcombe The poem (minor corrections to Melian's version): Trois Anneaux pour les Rois Elfes sous le ciel, Sept pour les Seigneurs Nains dans leurs demeures de pierre, Neuf pour les Hommes Mortels déstinés au trépas, Un pour le Seigneur des Ténèbres sur son sombre trône, Dans le Pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres. Un Anneau pour les gouverner tous Un Anneau pour les trouver Un Anneau pour les amener tous Et dans les ténèbres les lier Au pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres. There you go. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-19-2002, 03:25 PM	#47
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	LOL, Birdland! Actually "cul-de-" designs the end of something, or the bottom of something. But to use the entire "cul-de-sac" for something that's not even close to "sac" (Bag) is far off! Indeed, I find Hobbitebourg beautiful too. I couldn't understand why it wasn't what was used in English, I even find it more beautiful than Hobbiton. Some to complete the list: Brandybuck = Brandebouc Brandywine = Brandevin Crickhollow = Creux-de-Cirque (!!!) Uruk-Hai = Ourouk-Hai Ugluk = Ouglouk (replace u with ou) Gamgee = Gamegie Gaffer = l'Ancient (=the Ancient) Isildur's Bane = Le Fléau d'Isildur

03-19-2002, 11:16 PM	#48
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Orodhromeus - Hey, if you want something to sound better than it really is, give it a French name! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] So can we get any Greek translations? Can they be spelled phonetically with the Latin alphabet? (Can't read the Greek alphabet. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

03-22-2002, 09:49 AM	#50
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Well, however strange may it appear, I've lony read LotR in French & English, even though I'm Greek! But I guess I'll be able to get a list with the greek equivalents... Kalimac, you just transcribed phonemically how the Russin sounds in latin alphabet didn't you? I'm going to do the same with the Greek, though I think, as with the French and any other language, that it messes a lot if you don't hear it spoken.

03-23-2002, 07:47 AM	#52
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Indeed, I'd translate "fléau" (pronounced flé-O, always stressed at the last vowel) as plague. It can be used for a disease or for anything negative (as the swarm of locusts in the Exodus of the Bible). But there's no closer word to translate "Bane" (to my knowledge). My situation is a bit complicated, it's going to take a while to find it in Greek... Please be patient. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-24-2002, 05:41 AM	#53
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	In what follows: "dh" stands for the sound "th" in 'the', "th" stands for the sound "th" in 'thief', "ch" stands for the sound of a stressed "h" in 'hack'. At least here's the Ring poem (phonemically transcribed): Tria dhachtylidhia echoune i Xotiki i Vasiliadhes katou, Efta i Nani Archondes palatia pou choune mes ta pertadhia, Ennia i Anthropi i Thniti pou choun ti mira tou thanatou, Ena o Mavros Archondas pou vasilevei sta skotadhia, Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies. Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena. Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena. Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies. ____ Xotiko = Elf (the word 'elf' is of scandinavian origin and has no real equivalent in Greek; Xotiko mostly stands for fairy tale creature) Nanos (plural Nani) = Dwarf Hobbit = Hobit Ringbearer = Dhachtylidhokouvalitis (long, isn't it?) Middle-Earth = Mesi-Gi LotR = O Archondas ton Dhachtylidhion FotR = I Syndrofia tou Dhachtylidhiou TTT = I Dhyo Pyrgi RotK = I Epistrofi tou Vasilia The character names have been kept intact (in usual Greek translation style, which is often annoyingly revealing of the original tongue the book was written in...).

03-25-2002, 02:30 AM	#54
Elenglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 24	And some Finnish again: Fotr = Sormuksen ritarit ('The knights of the ring') Ttt = Kaksi tornia Trotk = Kuninkaan paluu Isildur's bane = Isildurin turma ..and more to come! __________________ "Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi. "Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.

03-25-2002, 05:12 AM	#55
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	More Swedish: Lotr - Sagan om Ringen (The Tale about/of the Ring) Fotr - Sagan om Ringen / Ringens Brödraskap (The Tale about/of the Ring / The Brother/Fellowship of the Ring) Ttt - Sagan om de Två Tornen (the Tale about/of the Two Towers) Trotk - Sagan om Konungens återkomst (The Tale about/of the Return of The King) I have never understood where the Swedish translator find the words "the tale about/of" in the English original title, but anyway..... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Isildur´s bane - Isildurs bane __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.

03-25-2002, 05:21 AM	#56
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Orodhromeus - is "Dhachtylidhiou" the actual word for "ring" in Greek, or am I being too literal? And in the last stanza of the poem, the "One ring to rule..." part, is the translator reiterating the word "One" at the end of each line? Sitting there puzzling over the words, trying to match them up to the English terms, is fun. Kinda like looking at a LoTR Rosetta Stone.

03-25-2002, 09:37 AM	#57
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I see there are some very attentive posters at the Downs! I guess it comes from the attempts of learning sindarin & Black Speech using only the Fellowship of the Ring poems! "Dhachtylidi" is the actual word for Ring; the suffix "-iou" shows possessive - sorry if that's not exact, grammar has never been my strong point. "-iou" along with "tou" translates "of the". Nouns, like verbs, are inclined in Greek - as in Latin or elvish et al. Indeed, "Ena" (=One) is repeated at the end of each couplet. That's a literal translation: Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena. One to rule them all and to find them, One. Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena. One to bring them all with dark magic, One. Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies. In the land of Mordor where shadows live. I agree it's a rather hasty translation. Actually it's very bad. While we're speaking of translations, I have another question which concerns style. IMO, one of the things that make Tolkien grate is his writing style. It makes things epic, the use of old english adds to that. It's not plain narration. It's a style comparable to the Iliad or Odyssey, two of mankind's greatest epics. My question is, how well is this style rendered in the translations in your respective languages, provided you've read it in English? To answer on my behalf, the French translation does not only little to follow Tolkien's style but is one of the worst translations I've ever seen. It's full of mistakes: orthograph, disposition, omissions, counter-senses, bad translations... Éomer is written Eomir in the same page; in dialogues when the speaker changes you don't realize it until you've read half of what he's said because >> has been used instead of << ; when a character quotes another, closing brackets are ommitted; "son of Thengel Théoden" is translated "Théoden's son Thengel". I can make a whole list of the terrible mistakes the French edition has!!! And it's been translated only one, in the 50s! As for the Greek one, I can't tell much. The poem is teribly translated. I personally believe Tolkien's style cannot be transposed in another language without losing a major part of the spirit & style. What do you think?

03-25-2002, 10:47 AM	#58
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 521	And some more to the Danish translation: FOTR = Eventyret Om Ringen = The Tale Of The Ring TTT = De To Tårne ROTK = Kongen Vender Tilbage = The King Returns Middle Earth = Midgård Brandywine = Brændevin __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

03-25-2002, 11:22 AM	#59
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Having no other language but English, I can only assume that every culture has it's epic or formal style of speech or writing. I would say that Tolkien is using the formal style of speech in his dialog, particularly with the the Men, Elves, and Dwarves. The Hobbits are mostly using a more casual form of 19th or early 20th Century rural speech, and characters like Sam and the Gaffer, are rendered in a rural dialect. (Saying "taters", instead of "potatoes", for instance.) And Gollum! Well, his speech, with the drawn out "ssssss", suggest an almost reptilian form of speech, which suggest evil very nicely. Tolkien's descriptive writing is pretty much set in the 19th/early 20th century form. I think his writing style is great. Some authors can really get bogged down in descriptions. Tolkien's visualizations are just right, poetic and rich, but not verbose. I'm sure these forms could all be translated in other languages, if the translator can get into the "spirit" of the book. But maybe I'm wrong. Do they have an equivalent to written "dialect" in French or Greek? Would a King speak like "a King" in a book, and not like a peasant? How would you suggest the word "The Shire" in another language, since "Shire" in English immediately give a picture of a peaceful, rural setting, but wouldn't suggest anything to a Japanese or Spanish reader. I'm really missing something, not knowing another language. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

04-07-2002, 12:43 PM	#60
Sîdhrîs Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 60	I've read the books in English, French and German and each version is special in its own way, but of course nothing compares to the original version. The translations in the books I've read have been mentioned already, but I'm also learning Latin and so I decided to translate the poem into Latin, just for fun: Dominus anulorum Tres anuli pro regibus divarum sub caelo, septem pro dominis nanorum in suis porticibus lapideis novem pro hominibus mortalibus, damnati ad moriendum unus pro Domino Atro in sua sella atra in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent. Unus anulus ad omnes regendum. Unus anulus ad omnes reperiendum, unus anulus ad omnes portandum et ad illos alligandum in tenebris in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent. Of course I'm not an expert, but I've been doing Latin for six years now, so I think it's mostly correct. By the way, does anybody have the Italian translation?

04-07-2002, 01:10 PM	#61
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Wow, it's beautiful in Latin. And I can almost recognize some of the words from my Spanish. Yes, Italian! More! More!