WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

I definitely concur. As Wilwa said she was going to do, I just looked over all the roles. Craziness!

[Lalaith]

Why single out the storied phantom

Of course, making a high-profile player like Phantom the centre of chat and attention is an excellent tactic for others to divert attention away from themselves.
Well, of the Great Ones that have so far spoken, many seem to have taken too freely of Ganymede's cups - but still, these are times of confusion and chaos not seen for many an age, so perhaps we can excuse ourselves. And to add to the chaos, no-one, save one, is 'innocent' in the sense of being exactly what they seem. Some are already grouped and paired and so know more than others, others are searching for mates.

I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

If you find a purpose for day one other than what you mentioned you will have to share.

So far I got a whole lot of nothing.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, things have come to a pretty pass! I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

She's invoking the name of Hades! Lynch her! Lynch her!

Grar, I wish I had more time. I'll be back in six hours or so and shall putz around and catch up then.


And there are (essentially) ordo roles in the game. They're just not mortal. (How do I know this, you ask? Well wouldn't you like to know?)

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Seriously, Fowlren, Day Ones are generally useful for analysis later on, if nothing else.

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

That's true. Didn't think about that. At the time though it is quite confusing.

Edit: x-ed with Sally

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

Well, I think in reference to the narrations, how Zeus is supposed to be on the 'good' side, so 'allied to Zeus' would be 'allied to the good side'.

The roles.

4 Wolves, 3 of which have Lovers (2 of which need to be located, and there is some potential for revenge kills or role knowledge, if one of them dies)

1 Unicorn

1 Mytho

2 Shirrifs (some protecting powers for Hercules if Hebe dies)

2 Seers (1 of which is False)

1 Ranger

1 Cursed (who knows they are cursed)

1 Hunter

1 Hunting Guardian (can communicate with the Hunter)

2 'Protectors' (Demeter knows the identity of Persephone (a lover), and can protect her once. Athena will know the identity of one of the Hunting Guardian, the Ranger, the Hunter, or the Seer, and she can get an extra vote twice)

1 Ordo

So. Possibilty for 2 more wolves, and the two lost lovers are potential allies for the wolves as well. At least there's no Cobbler. But then there are lots of gifteds, and the potential for another (Mytho) and for one to come back (Unicorn). Lots of oppurtunities for extra death, but also lots of oppurtunities for extra protecting. So I suppose it actually is pretty balanced.

*brain explodes*

x'ed with a Tum and Cupcake sandwich

[the phantom]

Oh, come now, this day isn't useless at all! I've already seen three players for certain (possibly more but I haven't had enough time to read carefully) who have done something to point towards a particular sort of role, and the only thing that remains to be seen is if they are serious in doing so or if they are merely hoping to cause the opposition to make an incorrect choice. The mind games have already started!

[Lalaith]

Well, Wilwa's post was at least an attempt at clarification so thanks for that. I have no idea what Sally's on about though - what's this plethora of ordness of which you speak?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Of course, making a high-profile player like Phantom the centre of chat and attention is an excellent tactic for others to divert attention away from themselves.
Well, of the Great Ones that have so far spoken, many seem to have taken too freely of Ganymede's cups - but still, these are times of confusion and chaos not seen for many an age, so perhaps we can excuse ourselves. And to add to the chaos, no-one, save one, is 'innocent' in the sense of being exactly what they seem. Some are already grouped and paired and so know more than others, others are searching for mates.

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

Originally Posted by autume98

If you find a purpose for day one other than what you mentioned you will have to share.

What I said.

EDIT:X'd since tum at #43.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Well, Wilwa's post was at least an attempt at clarification so thanks for that. I have no idea what Sally's on about though - what's this plethora of ordness of which you speak?

Unicorn is like an Ord, something only happens with their death. Persephone and Aphrodite are like Ordos until they've been found (and will remain so if their matches die before finding them). Mytho could become an Ordo if they choose certain people. The Cursed is like an Ordo until (if) they get chosen by the Wolves.

I can only assume she's referring to one of those. Unless she knows something the rest of us don't.

x'ed with Nerwen

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Is he (Zeus) allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

If Hera dies, then isn't he at that point on the side of the village, as he is a non-WW who can only live if the village triumphs? And that goes for the other non-WW lovers too, yes?

[Kath]

... I'm almost too impressed with myself to post ... I made it to Day 1!

So hello all. Think there are quite a few people here I've never played with before so this should be interesting. I've just got home so will read through what admittedly looks like not very much and get back to you.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

If Hera dies, then isn't he at that point on the side of the village, as he is a non-WW who can only live if the village triumphs? And that goes for the other non-WW lovers too, yes?

Well, I'd hope so, but some people will have it that a surviving Lover has automatically lost anyway. In this game, it makes a whopping big difference to the dynamics whether that's so or not.

(Maybe we need to clarify that point in the General Rules thread?)

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I'd hope so, but some people will have it that a surviving Lover has automatically lost anyway. In this game, it makes a whopping big difference to the dynamics whether that's so or not.

Well, if their lover dies they can no longer win as a "lover", so sure, I guess technically they could do whatever they pleased after that (use their revenge kill on themself even). But really, I don't think that's proper.

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

Agreed.

Wait. I just agreed with phantom. There is clearly something topsy turvy about the world today.

I need to go ponder that fact (aka go to work).

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

No, because Romeo died first, for real.

[the phantom]

I only used the names Romeo and Juliet due to the family ties and lover status, Folwren- the scenario wasn't meant to be strictly accurate to the original tale, particularly since I had the Zeus-Hera pairing in mind (that's what spurred the discussion) and as the male in that pairing is the "innocent" one the scenario I drew up made more sense with the female Juliet dying first.

[Folwren]

That's okay, Phantom, I was only teasing.

[A Little Green]

Hello folks! I think I'll start with my usual grumble about a difficult deadline - 9 AM my time, meaning that I'll have to either vote seven or eight hours early or wake up around six or seven in the morning to have time to read and vote.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera.

Eonwe, you just made my day.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Just my two cents. Only, this is so worthless (being the first day and all) that it's practically only worth .5 cents.

It's never worthless if you're saying something on topic or voicing your opinions on others!

Originally Posted by phantom

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be?

My brain hurts.

So, just in general, then. I'm definitely not going to vote for Wilwa or Foley toDay, they both seem to speak sense and make an effort to make others do so as well. (I know making sense doesn't mean you're innocent, but at this stage it just might.) Nerwen seems innocentish too at the moment. Of the others I'm either too confused or have too little material to formulate even a vague early Day 1 opinion.

[Kath]

On the subject of what and who is innocent, from the Admin thread:

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Looks like this means that anyone who isn't a Wolf or False Seer, so that means non-wolf Lovers etc, count as innocent. So technically right now we actually do have a plethora of innocents. As Wolves and Lovers find each other those numbers diminish because they have loyalty to each other over the village while both halves of the pairing are alive. So while lynching the Lovers is sort of positive, it is still more positive for us to kill the Wolves over the Lovers, especially early while they haven't had a chance to find each other.

[Nogrod]

I'll start by following Greenie with her grumble on the deadline. So I'll be voting earlyish everyDay - unless the gods of game force me to steal from my sleep - which would not be unheard of...

Okay, the way the phantom tries to convince Zeus to stick his loyalties to the good side in the event of Hera's possible death speaks good of him. The problem is of course he could bluff that (I've done that kind of bluffing myself so I should know). But I'm in no hurry seeing him at the gallows. Let's hear him first.

Wilwa makes sense and effort and should live, whatever her loyalties are. People who talk lot are easier to read in the long run than those who don't.

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again.

*Goes back to read*

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again.

A disappointment! I was expecting that!

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

I also agree about the Lover thing. Once the wolf lover is dead, the other is allied to the village. Their original goal can't be accomplished, and they can't win with the wolves, so their only option for any sort of victory is with the village. Same the other way around. For example Hera's main allegiance is to Zeus, and then to the wolves (just so happens that she can't win as a Lover without also winning as a wolf, so it's really the same), but if Zeus dies than her only allegiance is to the wolves.


So I have to leave in half an hour, and will be gone for about 7 hours. I won't make it to DL (since it's 2am for me (my bestie is clearly crazy) and I have to work in the morning).

x'ed with Greenie

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?

And Nog, mate. I see you.

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?

But one of each of the Lovers is a wolf. So the only way they can win (survive til the end) is if the wolves also win. Therefore their only choice is to be allied to the wolves. If both were innocent then they'd be a wild card, but one being evil changes the whole dynamic.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

But one of each of the Lovers is a wolf. So the only way they can win (survive til the end) is if the wolves also win. Therefore their only choice is to be allied to the wolves. If both were innocent then they'd be a wild card, but one being evil changes the whole dynamic.

Still, it goes for the other two pairs. I tend to put Lovers who win together into their own class, apart from other innocents. They've stuck a knife in my back to win before.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And Nog, mate. I see you.

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.

Oops... corrected.

About the wolves and lovers still... So correct me if I'm wrong.

Zeus (innocent) and Hera (wolf) are lovers who already know each others identities eg. Zeus knows one wolf and his immediate fate lies with her and thus in a wolf-victory? If we get Hera killed his alignment should change as his victory would thus be tied with the innocents winning?

The two other wolves know their lover's identity but the lovers don't know theirs. And the wolves are not allowed to communicate their lovers' identities to each other. But what kind of worries me is the possibility of them winning all together, the six of them... they coud form a powerful voting-block togehter if they could hint at each other about whom not to kill and if the innocent-sides of the pairings found out their lupine-lovers.

So can they win together or will it be just one lover-pair that can win? It's not probably too important in a few Days to come but might prove quite a turner later on.

[Eönwë]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I can't really think of a good solution:

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

[Rikae]

Foley, Day 1 can be very useful. That doesn't mean it has to be deadly serious at all times. Even joking can sometimes be useful; or, at least, anything that gets people talking - the more talk, the better, I say.

Originally Posted by ModGod

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Hm - this means that when Poseidon comes back, another role will be revealed. One way of finding the false seer/a wolf, then.

So, why exactly are we debating over/voting on what the winning conditions for a surviving lover are? Isn't that for Glirdan to say?

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So can they win together or will it be just one lover-pair that can win? It's not probably too important in a few Days to come but might prove quite a turner later on.

Glirdy said there can be a 3 way Lover victory (which would also be a Wolf victory)

Gotta go now. I'll be back quite a bit later.

x'ed with Eonwe and Rikae

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

But what kind of worries me is the possibility of them winning all together, the six of them... they coud form a powerful voting-block togehter if they could hint at each other about whom not to kill and if the innocent-sides of the pairings found out their lupine-lovers.

This is why early on I'd be more than willing to kill an "innocent" lover if I felt I had some idea who one was, as it would at the least remove the doomsday scenario of four wolves plus three lovers (plus possibly the cursed and the mytho!!) working in concert.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

We need to wait... as long as there is a list from both seers (thus both have decided to reveal) and there is at least one person whose identity can be confirmed to be the way one of them said it was - found out after they gave the name and identity, of course. Then we trust and try to protect the one who is the real seer.

Sadly there is a twist to this. The false seer seems to get a random pick for the role of the ones they dream of and thus s/he might get it right as well. So we actually face a possibility of not being able to pick the right seer unless there are multiple names in a list they produce. The chances are slight but existing.

Which should discourage the seers from revealing early. But well, that's their decision.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Steve

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

Depends on what he says. The folks he reveals will know what to do more or less, but everyone else on the other hand...

[Nogrod]

Also we should remember that the false seer is on our side - and thus s/he should be most willing to learn if s/he has it right or not! So unlike in normal situation where we have contesting claims, this time they both are goodies trying to help.

Add...
And maybe s/he can figure it out already her/himself early in the game and come open about it?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

So, why exactly are we debating over/voting on what the winning conditions for a surviving lover are? Isn't that for Glirdan to say?

Because it will almost certainly affect their gameplay. An innocent lover will try to defend xyr wolf lover, and therefore will be helping the wolf side. A lover win is a wolf win as well, at least as far as the village is concerned.

Of course, this means that there'll be lots of innocents who'll look like they might be wolves trying to save their packmates, which means that the least complex downside for the village (Or rather, settlement on Olympus) will be that some of them could be mistaken for wolves. It could also distract us from the actual wolves, and even worse could mean that the wolves (I'm thinking Ares or any wolf with a dead lover) could make it seem as if they were Lovers (and obviously, Lovers can't reveal).

So basically, I think we should treat anyone who defends/otherwise tries to save a wolf from lynching with as much suspicion as usual, because while xe could be a now-on-our side harmless ordo, xe could also be a wolf.


edit: x-ed with 2 Nogs and 2 phantoms

[Rikae]

Eönwë, be that as it may, it's still for the mod, not us, to say. It is a bit confusing, since an innocent whose wolf-lover is killed gets special abilities and so, presumably, has some goal toward which to use them, but we don't know what that goal is. I think we need modly clarification. on that.
We can speculate all we want about what they would do in that situation, but it doesn't mean much.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

And maybe s/he can figure it out already her/himself early in the game and come open about it?

A good thought, but I'm not so certain that we want the false Seer to reveal, as that would help the baddies narrow down who they should night-kill.

Plus, don't forget that the Wolves can dream too! Hera and Hephaestus both can dream if their lover is killed under the right circumstances, and what if they dream of the Seer, eh? If the false Seer has already revealed, they'll know that's the real one. But if the false Seer hasn't revealed, they may use their dream on him.

And of course they'll probably kill the Seer anyway, not knowing for certain if it's the real one, but still- at least we forced them to flush their dream on the false Seer, right? I see no reason to help the WWs make accurate night choices.

Originally Posted by Rikae

it's still for the mod, not us, to say

Glirdan has answered on the admin thread. Lovers can win with the WWs, and after a WW-lover dies the remaining lover sides with the village.

[Nienna]

Hello, children. I'm here and will probably need to vote a bit early so I don't fall asleep at work tomorrow. Some thoughts that I've had so far:

I often find that ignoring the phantom helps my sanity.

Thanks Wilwa! You're fabulous.

I agree with Nog that the False Seer should want to help us just as much as the real seer. After all they think they could be the real seer. Generally the only time a Seer reveals is after they have dreamed of a wolf or if they are going to be lynched and I think this is important to stick with. We don't want lots of random seer claims going on (and just think if a wolf false-reveals! ) to just add chaos to this already potentially chaotic situation.

That's all I've got for now. I'll pop in with any other thoughts I have.

Edit: x-ed with Rikae and Phantom

[Rikae]

Glirdan

has answered on the admin thread. Lovers can win with the WWs, and after a WW-lover dies the remaining lover sides with the village.

Which means there's really no point in debating over it.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by the phantom

A good thought, but I'm not so certain that we want the false Seer to reveal, as that would help the baddies narrow down who they should night-kill.

What's worse: the baddies being able to eliminate one person from the potential-seer list, or the village being led astray by a false seer?

If the false seer is killed, the role won't be revealed in the narration, right? So even if the wolves kill the false seer after dreaming of xem, the village may be left following false hints.