T-I-G WW LXXIV: War of the Wolves

[Pitchwife]

Continuing in order of appearance:

Zil
#7: the post that Lommy said looked reasonable but was really just banter. Which it was.
#36: thanks sally for clearing up Tewie's confusion about him and Izzy; thinks the revived could be given any of the dead's roles (this was cleared up on the Admin thread, go read); comments on Nog's 'interesting observation' about wilwa ('helping the other wolf-pack'); comments on Lommy about game dynamics, thinks getting rid on one pack in a row will be a matter of luck (which it is).
Conclusion so far: rather guarded, mostly commenting on things others said, which is not untypical for him early in the game; would be nice to hear some opinions about other people, though.

sally
#9, 11, 13, 15: dreams of eloping with Shasta Nilphreduin, some clearing up of gender & other confusion, all in all typical early D1 sallyness.
Conclusion so far: None.

Izzy
#17: suggests lynching wilwa for song parody about paper communication w/ wolves. (Which I'm assuming was joking.)
#20: elaborates her last saying to lynch anybody for joking about being evil on D1, especially wilwa.
And that's it.
Conclusion so far: jokingly suggests lynching people for jokes. I expect her to get serious when she returns & am curious whether she's going to suspect wilwa seriously (as Morsul seems to think).

Nerwen
#19: finds Tewie suspicious for not suspecting anyone (more joking).
#30: serious responses to Legate and Lommy, asks for more discussion of game dynamics, thinks some of the innocents may try not to look too innocent (meaning the gifteds, I suppose);
#37: thinks wilwa would be more careful if wolvish (referring to #25 and Nog's comment on it); agrees w/ Lommy that wolves may try to earn our trust by making cases against competing wolves.
#40: acknowledges an edit in her last, after Kit pointed it out.
Conclusion so far: like Zil, she's mostly commenting on others' posts; her comments look sensible and balanced, but she's been a terribly effective sensible wolf in the past and needs watching.
What really gives me pause is that last one - I'd have thought editing the actual content of your posts (other than typos and formatting) was an absolute no-no in WW?? Good catch, Kit.

To be continued...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What really gives me pause is that last one - I'd have thought editing the actual content of your posts (other than typos and formatting) was an absolute no-no in WW??

Yes. Like I said, I should have noted it, but I was feeling too lazy to explain, so I just marked it as an x-post with Lommy. I'd prefer this not to be blown out of proportion.

Anyway, I'm going to bed, now. It's late, even for a night-owl like me.

[Pitchwife]

Continuing (still in order of appearance, and coming to some of the loudmouths now, so this is getting longer)

Legate
#21: is concerned about the amount of killings to expect and the percentage of wolves in the village, ponders the mechanics of revivals;
#27: appeals to Morsul not to be heedless, doesn't get people's reactions to Izzy's post about wilwa's song*, is worried whether I applauded him too much or not, agrees w/ Lommy that we can't afford to waste votes;
#32: comments on wilwa's # 25 that weeding out one pack won't work except by luck, retorts to Nog's remark about him and Lommy;
#35: says the situation is not quite as dire as it looked, for Hunter kills may work for us; accepts Morsul's defense against accusation of heedlessness; is scared of Nerwen (who isn't?); says Nog makes good remarks about wilwa but may have furry motives; thinks my #33 was too unserious and 'toy-posting'; agrees w/ Lommy about the same point as Nerwen in #37.
Conclusion so far (at the risk of applauding too much once again): looks reasonable & constructive, makes some good comments on game dynamics; valuable if innocent, and no reason for me to think otherwise yet.

Morsul
#22: a list ! Tewie and wilwa 'evilish' for posting song parodies, not liking Shasta for posting as Nilp, nothing on Zil, watching Nerwen and sally, suspects Izzy for joking lynch suggestion (all this admittedly preliminary);
#29: defends himself against Legate who said he was acting heedlessly.
Conclusion so far: typical Morsul. I see where Legate's remark about him was coming from, but let's give Morsul some credit - that was one of the first posts that actually made an attempt at playing, and the very first to throw out some suspicions with reasons (however improvised) instead of banter.

Lommy next. That'll take some time...

*PS for Legate's enlightenment: Nerwen's first post last game started with 'Yay! Go wolves!', while wilwa was all bouncy optimism how good it looked for the village; both were wolves, and they won.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Lommy next. That'll take some time...

Hey! Unfair! You have already made five posts, I have only two. You are the loudmouth here.

Legate and Pitchwife are both looking better now, but I still don't trust them. Nerwen seems genuinely innocent, which doesn't point at anything. Nogrod looks quite good too even though poor him is busy. I'm also quite liking Zil and Kit's recent posts. The problem is, it's very unlikely they're all good and innocent. Falling back to my old "oh no, I don't suspect anyone" habit, I guess... Not nice.

Where's Boro, btw? And I'd also like to hear more from Shasta and EW, but I guess I just have to wait patiently as all the gentlemen are American... (timezones)

I can already say this won't be an easy Day for decisions... I guess I could just be nice towards Ewie and Kit - if they don't do anything too suspicious - since he is playing first time after a long time and the second has been incredibly many times wrongfully lynched on Day1 and I've always been in the bandwagon... But other than that, not much inclinations either way yet.

[Pitchwife]

Lommy:
#24: answers Legate about revival mechanics, agrees with his concern about the number of wolves, is worried by the presence of two packs, warns against wasting votes and voting random (good point); gives a list of impressions so far (which I won't recap here, because most of it is just either/or);
#34: thinks I'm too careful/serious, agrees with Nog about wilwa's question in #25, is pessimistic about the killing speed; wilwa's song not a cobbler hint as there is no cobbler; agrees w/ Nerwen's call for discussion of game mechanics and offers some ideas, which I'd like to comment on:

Originally Posted by Lommy

The first thing that comes to mind is that I guess it would make sense for them [i.e. the two wolf packs, Pw.]to hunt each other during the Days and innocents during the Nights, or that's at least what I'd do if I was them.

This sounds completely plausible to me - getting rival wolves lynched will help them gain our trust while they go on eating us under cover of the Night. But then -

Originally Posted by still Lommy

Anyway, that leads to the unpleasant fact that somebody who a) makes good cases against people and seems to put effort to finding wolves or b) gets a wolf lynched isn't necessarily innocent.

Both Legate (who called it a 'good remark') and Nerwen agreed with this; and it's true, of course. But what exactly is the point of stating it? In other words, is there any conclusion to be drawn from this warning that will be in any way helpful, other than that we should mistrust those who make good cases and put effort into finding wolves? In that case, whom should we trust, or rather, on what basis should we decide whom to trust? Or shouldn't we trust anybody at all? Thanks, I think we knew that to begin with...
Conclusion so far: two lengthy posts that sound reasonable enough, but most of it is actually general remarks about the situation and being wavery about people, looking more helpful than she really is (especially that last point I've just commented on).

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy's last.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, just a short sum-up for now:

Worried about:

Pitchwife - rather "safe" list-posts and the fact that he applauds me so much (yes, again... *sigh* sorry), as I have said earlier. It's sort of irrational thing, but I am mightily scared that something about it isn't just right. And given the amount of Wolves, the chance is pretty big that he might be one.

Also when re-reading, I became worried about TEWie-Sally and such discussions in the beginning... I mean "happy band of Wolves goes to picnic, what will we do in the first hours of Day 1 when nothing much is happening, let's have a chat". Of course, that would mean that they would have to be packmates.

Hard to say:

Nogrod
Nerwen - she is "slightly reasonable", but somewhat careful-ish. Well, as if one could catch Nerwolf on basis of something.

Not worried about:

Lommy - for some reason, not looking like her Wolfish self.
Morsul - looking like his innocent self (although that said, I haven't been playing with him for some time, so he might have "developed").

Otherwise not much ideas about:
Kitanna
Inziladun
Boro (not appeared yet)
Wilwa
Shasta
Isabellkya

In relation to some of the later named, and also to Sally and TEWie (in other words: the people who chatted here at the beginning of the Day), I'd like to see more posting from them. Of course it's probably a timezone-thing, but that means that likely by the time they appear my activity will already be on the decline. So hope to see them posting still.

(sort of half-xed with Lommy and x-ed with Pitchwife )

[wilwarin538]

So turns out my body highly disagrees with having 3 viles of blood forcefully removed from it, so if nothing I say here makes sense, pleace forgive me as I've been trying not to faint for the last hour...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Wilwa, there is an easy answer to your question: let's get one pack down asap.

If there is anything like a choice (heh, like there would be) we should of course eliminate one team and bring the Night-kills down as soon as we can. "Helping" the other wolf-team is little compared to two Night kills.

The fact that you ask that makes me wonder your alignment though. To an innocent I think that is a selve-evident thing. (Yeah, the wolves can reduce the numbers of each other at Night as well, but we should not count on that to survive.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The bolded part is the one that raises my eyebrows. There is wolfpack A and wolfpack B - and there is no difference which one of them devours us. So as soon as we get our first wolf we need to hope for the next one being from the same pack, whichever of them it is. And then the third from the same pack. It doesn't matter which one it is. But the way you bring it up feels to me like it mattered to you Wilwa, like you saw it was kind of unfair if we in a way "helped" the other wolfpack.

It's a totally different thing whether we can make any deductions as to which lupine action points towards which possible combination of wolves to "direct" our lynches...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I agree with Nogrod that the solution to Wilwa's question is easy. Once we catch a wolf, we should go for those who look like his/her packmates so we can lessen the horrible killing rate. Although of course we still shouldn't ignore other people who look wolvish.

Ok.

So what I was trying to say was yes we want to get a whole pack gone as soon as possble because we want to stop the double night kills, BUT one pack can't win unless the other pack is gone, so in effect by getting rid of one, yes we'll be helping ourselves, but we'll also be making the other pack's lives a bit easier.
(Nog, I don't think it's unfair, I just don't want to help the wolves out)

Now if you do the math we have a good chance of lynching a wolf, but the wolf packs also have a good chance of night killing a wolf from the other pack. Also with 3 rangers it could easily decrease the night kills. So it could turn out that maybe every Night we won't even have 2 deaths, just from maybe the packs choosing the same person, or the ranger interfering, or whatnot. So bringing down each pack to 1 or 2 each would make it far harder for them to win, than having one pack at 3 and getting rid of the other pack completely.

Is my mind just weird, cause this seems to make a lot of sense to me.

And yes, obviously it's hard to know which pack wolves are from anyway, so probably what I was saying is irrelevant since there is really no way to know which pack a wolf is from til it's dead. And even that we haven't had confirmed yet. I was just trying to get discussions started, which obviously worked....

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But Wilwa's ill, it seems. At least she's having blood tests, anyway.

Yes, the tests are because it seems likely that I have some sort of illness.

So I just typed that whole thing mostly with my left hand, cause my right arm is kind of dead and crazy sore, so I have to stop now. Plus I have lots of homework. I'll be back on later though after I get some sugar in me.

x'ed with Legate

[satansaloser2005]

K, I just have to get this out now so I can get it out of my head and make a proper post.



The next person who says something to the effect of "Sally was nice and friendly earlier toDay, she must be hiding something evil" gets my vote. I've not played with Elf before, he made a mistake (which again, was understandable), and I was trying to both introduce myself and clear up said misunderstanding. Who here doesn't do that to new kids/returning lovelies? Conspiracy? I think so!

In other news, I ain't trying this game, at least not like I did last time. I got suspected for trying too hard so if I'm going to be in trouble either way I'm not going to waste hours I could spend doing something productive doing an analysi post Having said that, I'll still be semi-active. Just not a lot of wordy brain power.


And now I'm going to go look through stuff and see what opinions I'm forming. K?






ETA: Oh, and Wilwa? *hands lots of cookies, hugs tightly* Poor dear.

[The Elf-warrior]

Ok, I've read through the thread. I personally think that a wolf wouldn't have the nerve to edit the actual content of a post after posting without a note. So, I guess I'm turning Nerwen's bad conduct into a sign of innocence. Still, that's my opinion on the matter.

I think Wilwa's remark about not wanting to help out the other team is not suspicious. Her explantation satisfies me.

Originally Posted by Legate

Also when re-reading, I became worried about TEWie-Sally and such discussions in the beginning... I mean "happy band of Wolves goes to picnic, what will we do in the first hours of Day 1 when nothing much is happening, let's have a chat".

What is happy about confusing Inzildun with Isabellkya?

Originally Posted by Lommy

EW - seems slightly nervous and at loss as for what to say.

Fair enough description of me.

Actually, Sally, we have played together before in Werewolf XLVI.Then again, I barely participated in that game. I was an innocent in that game, but let's just say I did a bad job.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Elf War-Pig

Actually, Sally, we have played together before in Werewolf XLVI.Then again, I barely participated in that game. I was an innocent in that game, but let's just say I did a bad job.

Ah, right you are. Sorry, that was ages ago and I don't think I played much in that game either. Still, I didn't remember you and was trying to be friendly, that's all. *whispers* They're onto us. Stop talking to me before they sort it out.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Where's Boro, btw?

Student teaching darling, which is why I asked about the DL. During the week, I'm completely unavailabe until well pretty much now. Then finishing up any extra work, settling down...etc. But the 9 pm DL gives me 4-5 hours to catch up, post and do all that jazz, which I'll be starting on...now.

Although with the time zone differences, I guess this means we won't have much time together? 'Tis a pity.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by wilwa

So what I was trying to say was yes we want to get a whole pack gone as soon as possble because we want to stop the double night kills, BUT one pack can't win unless the other pack is gone, so in effect by getting rid of one, yes we'll be helping ourselves, but we'll also be making the other pack's lives a bit easier.
(Nog, I don't think it's unfair, I just don't want to help the wolves out)

And what exactly would you say we should do in order to avoid helping the wolves out, or what else is the point of all this? OK, you started a discussion, but you don't seem to be thinking straight in my opinion. I'm considering your bad health, however - so get some food & rest, and we'll see.

And now, last not least:
Nog
#26: Legate & Lommy right about dire situation, but not necessarily innocent;
#28: answer's wilwa's question in the by-now-famous #25, wonders about her alignment because of it (as did I there & then);
#31: further comments on said post of wilwa's and her apparent concern about us 'helping the other wolf team'.
Conclusion so far: quieter than usual (which was to be expected, as we know he's busy); other than that, nothing out of the ordinary, except that he hasn't yet suspected me for being too careful (but Legate and Lommy are taking care of that).

Speaking of which - is it just me, or are our two L's agreeing quite a lot with each other (peppered with some occasional casual distancing)? And Nerwen with both of them?

[satansaloser2005]

Boro, stop flirting. That's my job.

*scampers off to continue her 'proper' post*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I just don't want to help the wolves out

So do you think we should refrain ourselves from lynching wolves as lynching a wolf from pack A is "helping" pack B?

But this one then?

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Now if you do the math we have a good chance of lynching a wolf, but the wolf packs also have a good chance of night killing a wolf from the other pack. Also with 3 rangers it could easily decrease the night kills. So it could turn out that maybe every Night we won't even have 2 deaths, just from maybe the packs choosing the same person, or the ranger interfering, or whatnot. So bringing down each pack to 1 or 2 each would make it far harder for them to win, than having one pack at 3 and getting rid of the other pack completely.

First of all, I agree that you have a point there I hadn't quite thought of - if the rules state that each wolf-group needs to win individually (so the total numbers of wolves are not weighed against the innocents), which I think they need to do. So getting rid of even one from the other team would be good indeed.

And saying this now like the N'th time: it is more or less impossible to target any suspicious looking person to belong to an exact wolfteam so all this discussion of whether or not to pursue one team or both is more or less academic for now. Sure. It might be different in the later Days though.

But.

What do you mean wilwa with that bolded part there? Are you saying that it is a positive thing that there are two wolf-rangers who can protect their mates from the rivalling team's attacks? Isn't that just the contrary and one more reason to get rid of one whole team asap.?


Okay. Enough.

I'll go back doing some re-reading..


EDIT: X'd with Pitch and Sally

[Inziladun]

I'm in the middle of my work day after taking some time off (read: mountain of work) , so I'm trying to look in every so often and see what's going on.

Let's see...some early thoughts:

Morsul- seemed fairly in character with his first post, but then his reaction to faint criticism of it felt a little defensive.

Nerwen- is never one to take for granted. I don't necessarily read anything into that post edit people are concerned about. I think everyone's probably caught themselves making a error in quoting someone at some time or another.

Legate- Hmm. Lots of posting. A couple of things stand out.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am mightily scared of Nerwen. Really. And given the general amount of Wolves, it isn't that far-fetched to think she might be one of them, is it...

In his very next post:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, just a short sum-up for now:

Worried about:

Pitchwife - rather "safe" list-posts and the fact that he applauds me so much (yes, again... *sigh* sorry), as I have said earlier. It's sort of irrational thing, but I am mightily scared that something about it isn't just right. And given the amount of Wolves, the chance is pretty big that he might be one.

Also when re-reading, I became worried about TEWie-Sally and such discussions in the beginning... I mean "happy band of Wolves goes to picnic, what will we do in the first hours of Day 1 when nothing much is happening, let's have a chat". Of course, that would mean that they would have to be packmates.

Hard to say:

Nogrod
Nerwen - she is "slightly reasonable", but somewhat careful-ish. Well, as if one could catch Nerwolf on basis of something.

Not worried about:

Lommy - for some reason, not looking like her Wolfish self.
Morsul - looking like his innocent self (although that said, I haven't been playing with him for some time, so he might have "developed").

Otherwise not much ideas about:
Kitanna
Inziladun
Boro (not appeared yet)
Wilwa
Shasta
Isabellkya

Nerwen- has accountably moved from someone of whom he was 'mightily scared', to 'slightly reasonable' and 'careful-ish'; he'd placed her in the 'Hard To Say' category.
Also, was Pitch really 'applauding' you? I haven't really seen any over the top 'buttering up' of you, or anything of that nature.

Pitch- Mr. Agreeable, himself. Fairly involved. Nothing to key in on at the moment.

Izzy- Nothing since early banter.

Wilwa- That remark about helping one wolf team get rid of the other was odd. I don't see how we can possibly know who belongs to what pack anyway, even if the pack indentities are given when a wolf dies. Can we really single out wolves as belonging to one pack or another? Not unless one has some inside info. Still, having blood drawn is assignable to Mordor, and I personally don't do well with needles, so I don't know if I can vote for her toDay.

Kit- Nothing of note.

TEW- Early banter, and a recent appearance. Not much to go on, and the fact that I've never played with him before doesn't help.

Sally- Solidly Sallyish.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

The next person who says something to the effect of "Sally was nice and friendly earlier toDay, she must be hiding something evil" gets my vote. I've not played with Elf before, he made a mistake (which again, was understandable), and I was trying to both introduce myself and clear up said misunderstanding. Who here doesn't do that to new kids/returning lovelies? Conspiracy? I think so!

In other news, I ain't trying this game, at least not like I did last time. I got suspected for trying too hard so if I'm going to be in trouble either way I'm not going to waste hours I could spend doing something productive doing an analysi post Having said that, I'll still be semi-active. Just not a lot of wordy brain power.

So you don't mind if we lynch you for being a submarine?

And Nog- Some decent points earlier. Nothing evil looking, at any rate. I've learned to my sorrow that the more I trust him, the more likely he is to be a wolf though. It doesn't do to take him for granted.

Boro- Who?

Which leaves Lommy- Active. Maybe a little 'Captain Obvious' stuff, but nothing radar-pinging.

EDIT-Took me a while to type. X/d with Sally and Nog. Also added Boro

[satansaloser2005]

*giggles at Dun* Nope, not at all. As long as you're wearing a dress at the time.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist! Meep.)

Erm, something personal came up, so I had to desert my computer for a while. Sorry. But I'm back now and can finish up that post.



Is it just me, or do several people look like they're trying too hard to be important?

[Nogrod]

Thinking will clearly help more than reading at this point - like Nerwen's call for thinking about the dynamics. Somehow re-reading wasn't that productive.

There was one thing though that did raise my eyebrows and it was that Nerwen editing things -issue. What bothers me there is that - and I know this from experience - a wolf is usually more conscious and more interested on every possible angle others might read her posts and thus is more prone to make such changes when realising a possibly bad wording or suspicious-looking point, or just coming to second thoughts whether that point was something one should make.

And even if editing content surely is a no-no in a werewolf-game, it is a matter of the grey-area whether it is editing in the strong sense if you're around alone and manage to make that extra change before the site makes that "last edited by..." text to the end of the post. It's like having not just yet pushed the send -button...

But the fact that Nerwen was willing to make that change and not acknowledging it in public - not wishing to fex. make just a new post entertaining the issue anew - does look peculiar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the fact that Nerwen was willing to make that change and not acknowledging it in public - not wishing to fex. make just a new post entertaining the issue anew - does look peculiar.

You have a point, and I'm not at all convinced Nerwen's innocent. Still, I don't know that I can vote for her based only on that.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Thinking will clearly help more than reading at this point - like Nerwen's call for thinking about the dynamics. Somehow re-reading wasn't that productive.

There was one thing though that did raise my eyebrows and it was that Nerwen editing things -issue. What bothers me there is that - and I know this from experience - a wolf is usually more conscious and more interested on every possible angle others might read her posts and thus is more prone to make such changes when realising a possibly bad wording or suspicious-looking point, or just coming to second thoughts whether that point was something one should make.

And even if editing content surely is a no-no in a werewolf-game, it is a matter of the grey-area whether it is editing in the strong sense if you're around alone and manage to make that extra change before the site makes that "last edited by..." text to the end of the post. It's like having not just yet pushed the send -button...

But the fact that Nerwen was willing to make that change and not acknowledging it in public - not wishing to fex. make just a new post entertaining the issue anew - does look peculiar.

Fair enough, but I've done the same thing both as an innocent and as a wolf. If I realize I've made a mistake I fix it right away, and if I don't think anyone has noticed I just don't say anything about it because it's easier, or I just plain forget to add that 'edit' at the end. Regardless of her role, it's likely the same with Nerwen.

Surprisingly, however, you put more effort into that accusation (or whatever you'd like to call it) than I think an innocent Nog would do. Speaking of peculiar....


EDIT: x'd with Dun

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Boro, stop flirting. That's my job.

Sorry, love, can't fight the moonlight?

Some dynamics to consider. Both wolf packs have a seer, making a fake reveal inevitable, as well as easily convincing and more believable.

Both packs being in competition have a ying and a yang. They are threats to eachother and want to kill the others probably just as badly as they want to kill innocents. But then, they can use that to their advantage by looking more innocent to us.

I don't get the doomsday, direness though. Ok, 6 wolves have to die instead of 3 or 4. That's more challenging. But it will be just as difficult for the individual pack to win, because their really is no benefit in having another competing pack. It's like how I don't get why we assume the werebear and wolves would work together? Only instead of just 1 lone bear, there are 3 opposing wolves each pack has to worry about. And there are 2 seers each pack of 3 have to worry about.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sorry, love, can't fight the moonlight?

Some dynamics to consider. Both wolf packs have a seer, making a fake reveal inevitable, as well as easily convincing and more believable.

Both packs being in competition have a ying and a yang. They are threats to eachother and want to kill the others probably just as badly as they want to kill innocents. But then, they can use that to their advantage by looking more innocent to us.

I don't get the doomsday, direness though. Ok, 6 wolves have to die instead of 3 or 4. That's more challenging. But it will be just as difficult for the individual pack to win, because their really is no benefit in having another competing pack. It's like how I don't get why we assume the werebear and wolves would work together? Only instead of just 1 lone bear, there are 3 opposing wolves each pack has to worry about. And there are 2 seers each pack of 3 have to worry about.

Good points here, dear. I mean the wolves are in just as much trouble as we are. To me the people who are playing Chicken Little look bad, because they're making people panic and when people panic they make mistakes. Is that what they want, perhaps? I mean seriously. Why make it seem so bad for the innocents, when really it's just as bad for the wolves and they're in even bigger trouble than we are? I'm just sayin', it seems like tactical fear mongering, not actual concern.

EDIT: split up the quote because I'd forgotten to do so prior to actually posting

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the fact that Nerwen was willing to make that change and not acknowledging it in public - not wishing to fex. make just a new post entertaining the issue anew - does look peculiar.

I side with what Nerwen said in #42. Don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill with the editting. It's questionable sportsmanship to use meta reasoning and speculation as to what and why someone was editting.

Nerwen said "yep, that's right Kit," gave an explanation. Let's leave it at that.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, about the reveals. Erm, there's three seers out there. Even I would try a reveal at some point if I was one of the wolf seers and had good dreams to go off of. (It's irrelevant, but I almost wish I were a wolf so I could do it lol.)

That being said, I don't think we should trust our seer. I mean we should, but even a wolf seer could hand over wolves (of course from the other pack, but still) and we'd never know the difference.

A plan of attack needs to be made for any reveals later on in the game. I'd say toDay or toMorrow is the Day to do it, as toDay we're not going to have a lot to go on (and it gives us something, as well as enhancing discussion) and toMorrow we'll have a Night's events to go from.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too paranoid. But I don't think it's possible in this game.


EDIT: x'd with Boro. And I agree.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Perhaps I'm being a bit too paranoid. But I don't think it's possible in this game.

Maybe a bit paranoid, but just a bit.

I mean if someone says "Don't lynch Morsul, Pitch is a wolf!" I don't think we have much of a choice other than to listen. But, I see what you're saying when you say "don't trust our seer."

Our seer is in a rather difficult position, because with the amount of wolves, it's not like he can stick his head out at any first fake seer reveal. Also, as you said the wolf packs with their own seer can easily look believable, and just because whoever is claiming to be the seer's info turns out accurate, doesn't mean we should automatically trust that person as the innocent seer.

However, if we're fortunate the wolf pack will fear the wolf-seer just as much as the innocent seer and want to get rid of the opposing wolf-seer quickly too. That should cause wariness in any wolf claiming to be the seer, because the other pack could just kill him that night....but then again there are ranger-wolves, which provides a different niche. Ah! Brain now hurting.

[Kitanna]

I have forty minutes to read the thread, make my decision, and vote. Ugh, work days.

My first thought (and I should have mentioned it earlier) goes make to what Nogrod said in regards to Wilwa. After he highlighted her little bit about "helping" one team by destroying the other, I found it interesting both Nerwen and Inziladun commented on it. On Inziladun's part it was "hey yeah, this is interesting" but no further comment on it. Nerwen said something more along the lines that would Wolf-Wilwa be so careless in her speech?

Nerwen asks for her editing to not be blown out of proportion. Nogrod says this on the subject:

a wolf is usually more conscious and more interested on every possible angle others might read her posts and thus is more prone to make such changes when realising a possibly bad wording or suspicious-looking point, or just coming to second thoughts whether that point was something one should make.

But the fact that Nerwen was willing to make that change and not acknowledging it in public - not wishing to fex. make just a new post entertaining the issue anew - does look peculiar.

I agree with him on the fact she chose not to make her change public. However, I think innocents are just as conscious to what is being posted because they're as likely as a wolf to be lynched for mistyping or misconstruing their point. No one wants to be killed regardless of side and I don't follow Nogrod's reasoning completely on Nerwen as suspicious because what player isn't conscious of mistakes they make?

[satansaloser2005]

*pets poor Boro's brain*

Of course, I'm by no means saying we should ignore seer reveals. If a 'seer' comes forward, we take their alleged dreams into account, blah blah. What I'm saying is that we won't know which seer they are, so while we can trust their dreams (hopefully!) we can't trust that they themselves are innocent.

[Pitchwife]

About the Nerwen edit thing: much as I'm inclined to respect her wish not to see it blown out of proportion, turning the matter into a 'sign of innocence', as Tewie does in #49, is too much. After last game, I'm not sure there's anything I'd put beyond a Nerwolf. Not going to vote her without some better reason, though.

Originally Posted by Legate #46

Also when re-reading, I became worried about TEWie-Sally and such discussions in the beginning... I mean "happy band of Wolves goes to picnic, what will we do in the first hours of Day 1 when nothing much is happening, let's have a chat". Of course, that would mean that they would have to be packmates.

As if most games didn't start with banter like that for the first 10-15 posts. I'm not saying ignore it all - there can be valuable hints in banter, like a cobbler signalling to wolves or self-conscious "I'm-so-evil" jokes - , but seeing a happy wolf chat just because there was some banter, regardless of content, is stretching it.
(Btw, Zil, I explicitely did applaud Legate in my very first post. Remains to be seen whether that was premature or not.)

Originally Posted by Boro

Both wolf packs have a seer, making a fake reveal inevitable, as well as easily convincing and more believable.

And at the same time making a genuine reveal by our own Seer rather risky, especially after this here:

Originally Posted by sally

That being said, I don't think we should trust our seer. I mean we should, but even a wolf seer could hand over wolves (of course from the other pack, but still) and we'd never know the difference.

Again, this is obviously true, but what's the point of stating it, except to sow mistrust of any Seer revealing, including our own?
But if you're asking for 'attack plans' in case of reveals, we should consider the possibility that the person revealing isn't necessarily the true Seer (innocent or wolvish), but a Hunter acting as mouthpiece for the real Seer in order to attract a Night-kill. The wolf-pack with a Hunterwolf could easily do this (they know each other's gifts, of course), but unless I'm mistaken about the current version of the Rules, our own gifteds could do it as well once the Seer has dreamed the Hunter.

EDIT: x-ed w/ Boro, sally & Kit

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

No one wants to be killed regardless of side and I don't follow Nogrod's reasoning completely on Nerwen as suspicious because what player isn't conscious of mistakes they make?

I totally agree with the first one and I only said the wolves are more conscious of it - and thus more ready to make last-moment changes.

But the reason I wanted to make the point on Wilwa and to continue on your point on Nerwen was that I wanted to see reactions to some open suspicions - or well, peculiarities, whatever you want to call them (with Wilwa I could say it was more or less an actual suspicion and with Nerwen maybe something that could be noteworthy if there were other concerns to add) as there had been basically none whatsoever before those two cases and we needed some actual discussion on suspicions.

I'm going back now to read those up as my bedtime is approaching. Back soonish with some ideas on how it went.

[Kitanna]

I hate that I have to do it this way, knowing full well the possible repercussions of such an early vote, but I need to get back to work.

Here's the only person that has popped out to me more than once at this point.

++Inziladun

Nogrod pointed out Wilwa's post about "helping" one wolf team by eliminating the other. Inziladun agrees. Nogrod points out Nerwen's editing and how she didn't make it public. Again Inziladun agrees, but doesn't really cast suspicion on Wilwa or Nerwen.

Before Norgrod says anything about Nerwen Inziladun says:

I don't necessarily read anything into that post edit people are concerned about. I think everyone's probably caught themselves making a error in quoting someone at some time or another.

After Norgrod posts, he says:

You have a point, and I'm not at all convinced Nerwen's innocent. Still, I don't know that I can vote for her based only on that.

Granted he never said he thought Nerwen was innocent or anything, but he changes his tune from her edit was just a mistake to she's suspicious because of it and all in light of someone else's comment.

I wish I could stay longer and didn't have to vote so hastily, but such as life I suppose.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Tum te tum. I think Pitch is a wolf. Let's lynch him.

No! Noooo! Lynch me!

Oh, do shut up, Nilp, I'm busy looking for wolves.

Wolf! Wolf right here! Lynch this guy!

Don't make me pull out the hedge clippers again.

...Shutting up.

That's what I thought.

Anyway, Pitch is doing an awful lot of analysing and listing, but it seems very smokescreen-y and repetitive, very safe. Sally could be setting herself up with an excuse for not wolfhunting (love ya, dear ) but then again she is Sally. Everyone in this game from Europe seems innocent to me so far, but it's early days. Can someone inform me when DL is?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Can someone inform me when DL is?

Eight central. And I love you too.

[Isabellkya]

I do not like how Legate connected himself to Nogrod in terms of Nog will come and lynch all of the Day One Jokers. I think in the meta-game sense, about eighteen posts of first Day joking is on the small side, when it could and has easily turned into two pages.


Morsul. If Wilwa is suspicious, then you would be half-right, that I would build a case against her. Though it would not be a case in the sense of 'Here is my case against her, read it and vote for her if you agree'. It would be more 'here are reasons why I am suspicious of Wilwa, and this is why I am voting for her'. But I would not, nor was I planning on.. setting her up for a lynch. It was a joke in reference to the last game.


That would be handy to know if the Wolves were pack specified when they perished.

Wilwa's comment about decreasing one pack would help the other pack - it came off as a touch sad. As if we focused on decreasing one pack (her pack). it would help the other pack, which she does not want.

Plus if we're not told their packs when they die then it's not like we could try to plan that out anyway.

Plan out lynchings?

I think we should still be going after wolves regardless of what pack they may be on, because we do not know their specific packs. Yes, connections between players may be a bit more iffy than usual, but a wolf is still a wolf.

Legate. The last game, Nerwen joked about being evil on the First Day... and lasted the entire game, even though there were people whom suspected her because of her 'Go Wolves!' "joke" post. Wilwa was her wolf partner. Hence my post referencing it.


I really do not understand the statement that 'there has been too much joking around, even for Day one.' There were perhaps eighteen posts of joking, and as mentioned at the top of this post... I think that is on the small scale considering meta-game. Even if every player had only one 'joke post', that would still be fourteen! So I fail to see this 'issue'.


I took the Unicorns to mean, that if they died gifted and were chosen to re-enter the game, they would enter as an ordo. But if they died as an ordo - then they re-entered gifted.

Getting rid of one pack, also makes the village's life easier, by a tad. It is hard to predict what exactly will happen, as it is not just numerics and statistics. We all have free thought and to an extent free choice in our decisions. Which greatly influence how the game goes - as none of us are completely immune to being influenced by the words and actions of others. I think that the more variables added to a situation, the higher probability of chaos to occur. So my point in all of this, is that it sounds like your sentiments regarding getting rid of one wolf pack over the other, would in turn help one - comes off as too emotionally involved if that makes sense Wilwa. You make it sound like we will hit wolves easily, and all from the same pack. It could be that when/if pack A goes, there is one left of pack B. We are guaranteed very little in this game. Only that a lot of players will perish, and the game will end eventually, with a winner.

Sally are you really purposefully trying to discredit the village-Seer so early?

X'd with Sally and Shasta.

[satansaloser2005]

FOR SERIOUS?!?!

Gah, I'd made a post to/about Pitch just now and it's been eaten. Back in five.


EDIT: x'd with Fell Bell. Heh, this makes my day even better!

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What do you mean wilwa with that bolded part there? Are you saying that it is a positive thing that there are two wolf-rangers who can protect their mates from the rivalling team's attacks? Isn't that just the contrary and one more reason to get rid of one whole team asap.?

Uh, honestly I hadn't even thought of that. I see Ranger and I automatically think they're on our side, I'm not used to the idea of an evilRanger, but yes of course they would protect their fellow wolves. I guess cause even the evil Hunter can help us out if they hunt one of the other pack, and the evil Unicorn can bring an innocent back to life, so I suppose I had the idea of 3 Rangers being a good thing. That was my mistake.

Originally Posted by Nog

So do you think we should refrain ourselves from lynching wolves as lynching a wolf from pack A is "helping" pack B?

No, that is not what I think.

Look, I'm gonna stop explaining this. Day 1 I talk about the rules, I talk about the statistics and our chances of winning, it's what I do. That's all I was doing, I was just trying to wrap my mind around our situation and be sure that we hadn't missed something. I see now that what I was saying was rather pointless, since there's no way to tell what pack a certain suspect could belong to, I was just talking, trying to stir up talk, I obviously hadn't thought of every possible scenario.

*is exhausted*

About the Seer reveals. I think if someone comes forward we should lynch those they say are a wolf, but not necessarily trust those that they say are innocent. Like a wolfseer could reveal the identity of a wolf from the other pack, so we should take all wolf identity reveals seriously, even though there's a chance they're lying, but then the next day we just have a wolf anyway. When it comes to a seer revealer saying someone is innocent though, we shouldn't take that as seriously, I'd say we should almost ignore it until we can be more sure about the seer's side. Since a seer wolf could say one of their mates is innocent, then reveal a wolf from the other pack, and we might think since they were right about the wolf then the one they say is innocent must actually be, when they may not. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by Sally

Good points here, dear. I mean the wolves are in just as much trouble as we are. To me the people who are playing Chicken Little look bad, because they're making people panic and when people panic they make mistakes. Is that what they want, perhaps? I mean seriously. Why make it seem so bad for the innocents, when really it's just as bad for the wolves and they're in even bigger trouble than we are? I'm just sayin', it seems like tactical fear mongering, not actual concern.

That whole highlighted part bugs me, just the feel of it. I'm all for optimism, but the way that she seems so against those who are just being realistic about our chances, and the "making people panic" thing. I don't know, I just don't like it. (though I'll admit I have just skimmed through everything and so don't have an accurate feel on her with regards to all her posts, this one was just the last one so I read it more thorougly, I'll look more closely at everyone later).

I don't think Nerwen's editing thing is a big deal at all, I mean it's not like she does it all the time or anything. I think some are making a bit too big a deal out of it. Besides, even innocent people worry about looking suspicious and do stuff to avoid that, avoiding suspicion is not only something wolves do.

I should be back on randomly until DL. I'll probably wait longer to vote since on Day 2 my vote will have to be rediculously early, I want this one to be more thought out.

x'ed since Sally at 63

[Nogrod]

On Wilwa

My posts #28 & #31

Originally Posted by Pitch #33

I have to concur with Nog's answer to this one. Whether or not we should halve the Night-kills if we can is not a question which should cause an innocent much headaches, especially not an experienced player like wilwa.
Conclusion so far: this last post does worry me - looks like contributing, but is really quite wishy-washy, confused and confusing. Most suspicious thing I've seen up to now.

Originally Posted by Lommy #34

I agree with Nogrod that the solution to Wilwa's question is easy. Once we catch a wolf, we should go for those who look like his/her packmates so we can lessen the horrible killing rate. Although of course we still shouldn't ignore other people who look wolvish.

Originally Posted by Inzil #36

That's an interesting observation about Wilwa. I'll keep it in mind.

Originally Posted by Nerwen #37

That is indeed a highly peculiar thing to say. Though, you'd think a Wolfwa would be more careful.

But Wilwa's ill, it seems. At least she's having blood tests, anyway. Which might make an ill-considered remark more likely– for an innocent as well as a wolf.

Originally Posted by Kitanna #39

Wilwa does make a point we'd be helping the second wolfpack by getting rid of the first since Pack A can't win until Pack B is gone. However, I'll have to go with the sentiment that "a wolf is a wolf" at this point. We have to lynch one before we can put him/her into a team. Still, I don't see this as a real sign against Wilwa.

Originally Posted by The EW #49

I think Wilwa's remark about not wanting to help out the other team is not suspicious. Her explantation satisfies me.

Originally Posted by Inzil #55

That remark about helping one wolf team get rid of the other was odd. I don't see how we can possibly know who belongs to what pack anyway, even if the pack indentities are given when a wolf dies. Can we really single out wolves as belonging to one pack or another? Not unless one has some inside info. Still, having blood drawn is assignable to Mordor, and I personally don't do well with needles, so I don't know if I can vote for her toDay.

Originally Posted by Kit #65

My first thought (and I should have mentioned it earlier) goes make to what Nogrod said in regards to Wilwa. After he highlighted her little bit about "helping" one team by destroying the other, I found it interesting both Nerwen and Inziladun commented on it. On Inziladun's part it was "hey yeah, this is interesting" but no further comment on it. Nerwen said something more along the lines that would Wolf-Wilwa be so careless in her speech?

Originally Posted by Izzy #72

Wilwa's comment about decreasing one pack would help the other pack - it came off as a touch sad. As if we focused on decreasing one pack (her pack). it would help the other pack, which she does not want.

As I'm in a copy-pasting mood I'll continue with the Nerwen-discussion first before coming back to some overall remarks.


EDIT: X'd with a host...
EDIT2: added Izzy-quote

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife, re: my seer theorizing

....what's the point of stating it, except to sow mistrust of any Seer revealing, including our own?
But if you're asking for 'attack plans' in case of reveals, we should consider the possibility that the person revealing isn't necessarily the true Seer (innocent or wolvish), but a Hunter acting as mouthpiece for the real Seer in order to attract a Night-kill. The wolf-pack with a Hunterwolf could easily do this (they know each other's gifts, of course), but unless I'm mistaken about the current version of the Rules, our own gifteds could do it as well once the Seer has dreamed the Hunter.

Heh. You just made my freaking day.

When I posted that I not only wanted to make everyone aware of what I was thinking, but I also expected certain types of responses and wanted to see who would give them to me.

Let's analyze! That's right, analyze myself (sort of)!

Me: "So we can't trust the seer right away. Don't kill them, necessarily, but don't trust their motives. We still gotta listen to them though, 'cause....yeah."

Pitch: "Sally wants to make us mistrust our seer! I'm going to hint that she's evil because clearly someone who says this is a wolf!"

Me: *saw that coming*

Pitch: "But we have to keep an eye out and be open-minded because it could be a wolf!hunter trying to bravely protect their wolf!seer. Blah blah."

Me: *saw that coming*

Pitch: "Oh, and of course the ordo!hunter could do that too. Wow, look what I did? I planned for nearly every eventuality in this and completely just discredited Sally. Oh, and of course I've been thinking about this for more than an ordo would need to but I've no reason to be worried about it, oh noes, not me."

Me: "Pitch? Hun?"

Pitch: *blushes* "Yes?"

Me: "Your fur is showing."



I love it when my drag-crap-out-of-you posts work out so well. Look, I got an Izzy to try to fear monger against me too. Lovely! I'm proud of myself!


And now I'll go look at Pitch more in detail. Kthnxbye? Kthnxbye. ^_^



Yes, I'm paranoid. I don't care. I got exactly the wolf!reaction I expected and I plan to deal with Pitch accordingly. *grins, runs off*

[Nogrod]

On Nerwen

Kit points the edit-thing out on #39 and Nerwen immediately answers.

Originally Posted by Pitch #41

What really gives me pause is that last one - I'd have thought editing the actual content of your posts (other than typos and formatting) was an absolute no-no in WW?? Good catch, Kit.

Nerwen hopes it would not be blown out of proportion (on #42).

Originally Posted by The EW #49

I personally think that a wolf wouldn't have the nerve to edit the actual content of a post after posting without a note. So, I guess I'm turning Nerwen's bad conduct into a sign of innocence. Still, that's my opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by Inzil #55

I don't necessarily read anything into that post edit people are concerned about. I think everyone's probably caught themselves making a error in quoting someone at some time or another.

My adding to the Nerwen's edit-issue (on #57).

Originally Posted by Inzil #58

You have a point, and I'm not at all convinced Nerwen's innocent. Still, I don't know that I can vote for her based only on that.

Originally Posted by Sally #59

Fair enough, but I've done the same thing both as an innocent and as a wolf. If I realize I've made a mistake I fix it right away, and if I don't think anyone has noticed I just don't say anything about it because it's easier, or I just plain forget to add that 'edit' at the end. Regardless of her role, it's likely the same with Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Boro #62

I side with what Nerwen said in #42. Don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill with the editting. It's questionable sportsmanship to use meta reasoning and speculation as to what and why someone was editting.

Nerwen said "yep, that's right Kit," gave an explanation. Let's leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Kit #65

I agree with him on the fact she chose not to make her change public. However, I think innocents are just as conscious to what is being posted because they're as likely as a wolf to be lynched for mistyping or misconstruing their point. No one wants to be killed regardless of side and I don't follow Nogrod's reasoning completely on Nerwen as suspicious because what player isn't conscious of mistakes they make?

Originally Posted by Pitch #67

About the Nerwen edit thing: much as I'm inclined to respect her wish not to see it blown out of proportion, turning the matter into a 'sign of innocence', as Tewie does in #49, is too much. After last game, I'm not sure there's anything I'd put beyond a Nerwolf. Not going to vote her without some better reason, though.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the reason I wanted to make the point on Wilwa and to continue on your point on Nerwen was that I wanted to see reactions to some open suspicions - or well, peculiarities, whatever you want to call them (with Wilwa I could say it was more or less an actual suspicion and with Nerwen maybe something that could be noteworthy if there were other concerns to add) as there had been basically none whatsoever before those two cases and we needed some actual discussion on suspicions.

Fair enough, but I'm also used to a stubborn innocence about you, and where you don't easily let go of your reasons. (I don't mean offense in those statements, I'm just as stubborn ).

Kick-starting suspicions is good, but stepping back from them (instead of continuing to argue them) and basically saying you were probing for other reactions...seems like a quite different Nogrod. Simply not confident in your opinions at this stage or wolf testing what targets he wants to go after?

*In case if it's not clear...watching you Nog.*

[Nogrod]

Sorry to put all those parts of the posts there, but if one of them turns out a wolf that kind of easy-reference might prove handy later (and I had to do that anyway to get muself to read them in order).

So so me comments...

On the discussion on Wilwa.

Pitch says it's the most suspicious thing he's seen so far (after some round-abouts) - which is kind of all too easy.

Lommy doesn't take sides on suspicions but comments only on the general issue. Carefully decided not to comment on Wilwa herself?

Inzil sound opportunistic with his "interesting" and "keep it in mind".

Nerwen more or less defends Wilwa: "a Wolfwa would be more careful". Heh, were you two "more careful" in the last game? Also it is interesting she tries to give a meta-reason (she's ill) to not think Wilwa suspicious.

Kit says it's no real sign against Wilwa (obviously... so what's the point?). Feels a bit protective.

The EW is satisfied with Wilwa's explanation... excuse me?

Inzil (second comment) misses the mark and ends up saying he would not vote on the basis of that - and that follows the new sentiment that people don't seem to suspect Wilwa that much... that could be seen as opportunistic as well.

Kit (second comment) notes Nerwen's and Inzil's reactions to the suspicion.

Izzy banged the head of the nail by saying what I was thinking about... so why I suspected Wilwa in the first place.


On the discussion on Nerwen

Pitch looks like trigger-happy again without committing himself too much (see above case Wilwa). I'm uneasy with him and the two "hits".

The EW says he will turn Nerwen's "bad conduct into a sign of innocence"... excuse me? It's the second time I just don't get him - but it might actually be just a different approach... but it bothers me still.

Inzil seems to be quick to join the group defending Nerwen - but still feels the need to re-explain after my re-stating of the point.

Sally takes the personal view: I do that as well and it's likely the same with her. Looks good, but if she is in cahoots with Nerwen she would probably have said the same...

Although (and this holds for all the people to come later as well) I'm not so sure anyone being Nerwen's packmate would think it advisable to comment on the issue at this point any more as basically everyone had already said there was nothing suspicious in there. So why relate themselves defending their mate (if Nerwen gets lynched / killed) as someone might come back to these discussions afterwards?

But Boro's "cut the crap, she's innocent" -attitude is way too overconfident for my liking. Especially the comment "let's leave it at that". Well, well, well...

Kit comes around now defending Nerwen... interesting, but probably more innocent than suspicious, regardless of Nerwen's role.

Pitch (second comment) is very carefully trying to not let the suspicion go but says he won't vote her without better reasons...


Okay. You can see quite a lot of what I think from these comments. Now I need to take a short break, read the rest that has come in while I have been writing these, and then make some kind of final remarks for the Day, vote and go to sleep.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, here just a post in course of reading the thread...

Originally Posted by The Elf-warrior

What is happy about confusing Inzildun with Isabellkya?

The overall tone of your discussion was just happy. But then, there was Sally present. Okay, whatever, it was not the point... just sort of that if I were to choose some Wolves from the first posters based on anything (knowing that there HAD TO be - by mere numerical count - at least one Wolf among the people who posted before me), you two could as well be it. But that said, it was because I had no more info than these opening joking posts with basically no content, as you haven't posted since then, and knowing there were some Wolves there, I just made as good guess as any.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Legate- Hmm. Lots of posting. A couple of things stand out.

In his very next post:

Nerwen- has accountably moved from someone of whom he was 'mightily scared', to 'slightly reasonable' and 'careful-ish'; he'd placed her in the 'Hard To Say' category.

No, no, these were two different things. Being "mightily scared" is a feeling: a subjective feeling, knowing that Nerwen can be a terrible Wolf, and not getting for now very good impression from her. The list I posted later was a list of my level of suspicion about people in general after a reflection about the subject.

Originally Posted by Zil

Also, was Pitch really 'applauding' you? I haven't really seen any over the top 'buttering up' of you, or anything of that nature.

Like he said, he was. Maybe not over the top, but it just scares me, for some reason. "I have a bad feeling about this."

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, about the reveals. Erm, there's three seers out there. Even I would try a reveal at some point if I was one of the wolf seers and had good dreams to go off of. (It's irrelevant, but I almost wish I were a wolf so I could do it lol.)

That being said, I don't think we should trust our seer. I mean we should, but even a wolf seer could hand over wolves (of course from the other pack, but still) and we'd never know the difference.

I would phrase it like (and I hope I understood it right, as I think that's what you meant as well): we should trust our Seer, i.e. lynch whomever he/she tells us to, but not take it as a proof that him/herself is innocent. And as Boro said, whatever Seer reveals, there will be at least one faction of Wolves (in case of a real Seer, two factions) which will want to kill him/her. Only the Wolves have the advantage that their Ranger will know their Seer, which is actually quite a major blow here. For that matter, our Ranger would be probably in the worst position when a Seer reveals, as he/she would not know whether to protect the Seer or not. It's quite a mess, I'd say. But I think we should solve the situation if/when it happens. Let's not get into too deep speculation - for now I'd just hope the Ranger could figure out the best solution for him/herself.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I agree with him on the fact she chose not to make her change public. However, I think innocents are just as conscious to what is being posted because they're as likely as a wolf to be lynched for mistyping or misconstruing their point. No one wants to be killed regardless of side and I don't follow Nogrod's reasoning completely on Nerwen as suspicious because what player isn't conscious of mistakes they make?

Just one comment to the Nerwen issue, as I personally don't want to stretch it and don't see that a problem - I think Kitanna stated it exactly the way I would phrase it. That's not saying I would not suspect Nerwen, but I would not see the editing issue as giving any pros or cons for my suspicion. Enough said.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As if most games didn't start with banter like that for the first 10-15 posts. I'm not saying ignore it all - there can be valuable hints in banter, like a cobbler signalling to wolves or self-conscious "I'm-so-evil" jokes - , but seeing a happy wolf chat just because there was some banter, regardless of content, is stretching it.

Again, see above - it's all done considering the fact that we have fifty million Wolves this time, and it was basically clear that there was at least one Wolf among the "hello nothing nothing nothing to say" people in the first few posts. But whatever. It was "for the time being", because by now all these people are posting again and there is far more to consider.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But if you're asking for 'attack plans' in case of reveals, we should consider the possibility that the person revealing isn't necessarily the true Seer (innocent or wolvish), but a Hunter acting as mouthpiece for the real Seer in order to attract a Night-kill. The wolf-pack with a Hunterwolf could easily do this (they know each other's gifts, of course), but unless I'm mistaken about the current version of the Rules, our own gifteds could do it as well once the Seer has dreamed the Hunter.

I think that's quite a good observation here, however, what particular meaning would it have for us? It's not that it would make any difference: there will be a "Seer", nobody would know whether it's real or not, and either we all trust the person, or in some (rather hard to imagine just out of the blue) situation we decide that it's an impostor and get rid of the person - and if it's a Wolf, it would be a Wolf, regardless whether Seer or Hunter. Okay, if it's a Hunter, it would mean a kill of one person. Okay, now maybe I get it - the one thing that would be hard is if a Seer (real Seer) counter-revealed, then the impostor was lynched, turned out to be a Hunter, and killed the Seer (who has foolishly revealed). But that's quite a complicated situation to imagine, again, at least I think so.

Okay! But that's it for now, I would like to vote soon, also Lommy sitting next to me looks like she'll be about finishing her post, so now I will sort my thoughts on people and then vote and that's it, I think.