Admin thread for T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

but to be honest the rules are too complicated. (Too complicated for your own good, Nogrod. At least you should clarify them a bit because "nobody wants to read half a thread of flip-flopping before you make the final rule", says Legate, but I was merely thinking that the final rules should be understandable with less than an hour's studying.)

Well, I guess I said it in the beginning that the rules are "in progress" and that there will be clear final rules to be read before the game begins.

The first post actually has the first line: "Here be the final Rules & Regulations when they are decided on..."

I have appreciated Roa's comments a lot and if anyone else finds points that need clarification - or notice a problem - please let me know. You Lommy make a good example of what I would like you to do. Here's a few answers to the points you raised.

let's take the Captain for example. It's a good idea, yes, but quite unfair in practice: there are going to be some people who just won't be able to be around the DL to make the decisions the Captain should or would want to be able to make which makes it probable some (many) people will/can never be elected as Captains, which is rather unfair. (And yes, that's at least half of Americans, I guess, and at least me and Greenie if we have school and the DL is 1am.) If you want to keep the Captain role, I think it should not be dependant on the DL. Maybe the Captain should just PM the mod the list of everybody in the order of how much s/he wants them killed at any time before the DL when s/he leaves the thread for good? Or something else, but the current rules are difficult and unfair.

Good that you reminded me about that. I had thought I had figured out the DL-independency for the Captain but I had forgotten about that "ten minute -interval" I had thought of when I first sketched the rules...

First of all, when the Captain "leaves the thread for good" he should name his candidates for being his BG's publicly eg. in the thread. But he should also send me maybe a list of four or something if someone happens to die before the Day ends. I wouldn't like to see the Captains pick for BG meaning immunity from lynching in any way.

But that "canceling of lynching" or changing the lynched-one possibility. Well, I'd say that the Captain could work as he sees fit. He could send me a list of players he will not allow to be lynched whatever happens. Or he could send me a list of priorities - including everyone if he so wishes. Or he could send me a wish that if these two are neck by neck in the end then this one dies: or if these two are leading neck by neck the lynching will be cancelled (oftentimes you know already who are the probable candidates for lynching quite early in the Day - but not always and surprises do take place for sure)... I would give the Captain the power to decide what kind of orders he would give.

The only limitation would be that the Captain couldn't pick someone to be lynched from two votes down from the leading candidate.

And anyhow, how eager different Captains would be in meddling with the lynches on regular basis is another question...

I also think there's too much PMing allowed. It will make it utterly confusing and also put wolves at a disadvantage, because their strength is in being able to hold secret council, but now half of the village can do it so it is kind of pointless.

You're probably exaggerating a bit... I see you being my daughter in that.

But isn't confusion actually a weapon for and not against the werewolves? I mean in a PM discussion by Night two innocents can share views but they have no way of knowing whether their partner is an innocent in the end. Nice wolves could use those discussions in furthering their own ends as well... More people would have something to do during the Nights (and no, no one is forced to make ten PM's during the Night) and the wolves would still have their normal secret council. And when the wolves discuss themselves they know who the others are unlike those guards or random-talkers.

And I'd rather have five wolves and one kill per Night than four wolves and two kills per Night, but that's just a personal preference.

I don't have a strong opinion on that so I'd like to hear what you others think. Why I thought of the two kills per Night -rule was the fact that in this game there are more possibilities for villagers to deny the wolf-kills. But what do you others think?

(especially from someone who isn't even necessarily playing - I'd like to, but might be I won't have the time, especially for a complicated and Night-active game like this...)

Hey Lommy, we want you to play!

A mild disclaimer: you're thinking about these rules in a too complicated way my dear. It is quite a simple game: hunters, rangers, wolves, ordos and a few little things like a Captain and some Night-chatters in safety just to give people more to do (and you're not forced to chat all Night if you don't want to or do not have time for it).

What a player needs to do is to try to make his side win with fairly normal procedures: fool the villagers if you're a wolf or catch the villains if you're innocent.

Any one player only has one role and it is enough if the player understands his own role. The wolves need to think a bit more but there are hopefully four of them so they can help each other out... and anyway, in the end the wolves also just try to kill people and what turns out turns out as they can't know who has which role...

[Roa_Aoife]

The idea of two kills doesn't bother me so much, especially with so many ways to prevent them from happening. What does bother me is the stunning number of ways the wolves can die. I always hate auto-kills by hunters. The idea that the hunter can just take a wolf with them but not risk innocents seems overly weighted, and having not one but two in the same game seems worse. I might allow the master hunter, but the "Hates conspiracies" ought to be the same as the "hates dark deeds" - that is they should take with them whomever they choose, wolf or not. Otherwise, you create wolves that must be overly cautious for fear that a hunter will get them regardless.

To be fair, I've hated smart hunters since the idea came up, and especially since DW I. Hunters are supposed to deliberate over their choices, and think carefully, lest they kill an innocent (or more likely the seer) by mistake. So my opinion is clearly biased.

Still more than one is just too much.

Further more, what exactly do the NG's do besides not get killed themselves? Do the actually protect anyone? For that matter, besides the decisions about lynching, what does the captain do? You make it sound as though not having one at night would be detrimental to the village, but how?

Last question (for now): Is the assassin playing for himself or the village? I think it would be better if he worked for himself. He wins if he's the sole survivor. That doesn't mean he won't hunt for wolves, it just means that he's not solely against them. With so many hunters, I think that seems fair.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

The idea of two kills doesn't bother me so much, especially with so many ways to prevent them from happening. What does bother me is the stunning number of ways the wolves can die.

A lot will depend on when we start and how many we are. If we're going to start the game with around 15 players (like we have now), we'd surely need to leave a few roles out - basically I think the assassin, one hunter, one wolf... that should be thought of.

But let's hope we'll get about 5 more players in the next three days or so, that we could make a kind of "full version" of this.

Actually I had started to have second thoughts of this assassin-role anyway. But now as you bring up the idea that he could just be on his own eg. try to be on the winning side, whichever it seems him to be the one, I kind of started liking that role again...

I always hate auto-kills by hunters. The idea that the hunter can just take a wolf with them but not risk innocents seems overly weighted, and having not one but two in the same game seems worse. I might allow the master hunter, but the "Hates conspiracies" ought to be the same as the "hates dark deeds" - that is they should take with them whomever they choose, wolf or not. Otherwise, you create wolves that must be overly cautious for fear that a hunter will get them regardless.

All these different versions came in as I tried to make as many different hunters as possible but you maybe right. I kind of like the idea of an "hates conspiracies" -hunter who singles out the wolf driving for his lynch (kind of a hero character) but maybe we should make him rather one that has a list, let's say of three, and could bring down the wolf in the list who took part in his execution... but if there is no wolf who voted for him in his list then he takes the number one in the list?

Further more, what exactly do the NG's do besides not get killed themselves? Do the actually protect anyone?

Actually nothing else: they don't protect any individual player but are like guardians of the whole camp (not that there would be any "outside-game interference" to be expected in-game -terms). Well they can talk if they wish... That idea came to me as I tried to think of a reason why some people should be allowed to PM each other during the Night to add player-involvement (especially for those who have no special role). So it's actually a narrationally / structurally plausible explanation to give a few people a licence to PM during the Nights. If they are voted by the others it introduces an interesting added element as to why people wish to give certain people the chance to PM during the Nights and / or to give them immunity over a Night-kill...

Remember, the villagers can also vote for a wolf to be one in safety and to PM someone.

For that matter, besides the decisions about lynching, what does the captain do? You make it sound as though not having one at night would be detrimental to the village, but how?

Sorry, a wrong signal from me if that actually is what comes through. The Captain is the boss. So he has a kind of limited master's voice in the lynchings (as a ranger captain surely would have in that kind of conditions) but otherwise he's just one the "village" thinks should be safe at Night (and someone on whose judgement on matters of life and death the "villagers" trust on) - and as one having the right to choose his BG's will influence who gets to talk with each other during the Nights and who are safe...

Partly following my answer to Lommy: I'm not too worried about fex. the information going slowly due to the time zones on these matters. Sometimes in the most basic games the wolves miss their Nightly kill because of confusion and time zone issues so why not accept things might happen this or that way in here as well? The people in the roles they have do the best they can and rest is mechanics only I need to be on top of... (surely I have to interpret the situations "by the book" ie. according to the pre-set rules)

Last question (for now): Is the assassin playing for himself or the village? I think it would be better if he worked for himself. He wins if he's the sole survivor.

Wouldn't it be enough he is alive when the other "team" is dead and gone? It's a bit tough ordeal to win only as a sole survivor (and in that case he should be counted as an innocent in the tallies which determine whether the game is over or not). I'm not sure... What do you think?

[Roa_Aoife]

All these different versions came in as I tried to make as many different hunters as possible but you maybe right. I kind of like the idea of an "hates conspiracies" -hunter who singles out the wolf driving for his lynch (kind of a hero character) but maybe we should make him rather one that has a list, let's say of three, and could bring down the wolf in the list who took part in his execution... but if there is no wolf who voted for him in his list then he takes the number one in the list?

Eh, I still wouldn't like it. (How should they know who among their killers is wolf?) But I will always be on the side of the hunter shooting in the dark. It's just not as much fun when they don't have to deliberate as much over their one choice. But that's me, and I've always been a bit on the extreme side. Certainly there are people who like "intelligent" hunters.

It would just be the master hunter, only with lynches instead of both lynches and nightly kills, so I would be inclined to prefer one or the other, not both, as two is bordering on unfairness.

Also, with your clarification, it could be that the game ends up without having NG's or a captain. If I don't trust anyone, why would I want to protect them? And why would I put control of the lynch, limited as that control may be, in the hands of someone I don't trust? Perhaps there ought to be more incentive? Though I can't think of what that wouldn't completely unbalance the game...

[Boromir88]

Eh, I still wouldn't like it. (How should they know who among their killers is wolf?) But I will always be on the side of the hunter shooting in the dark. It's just not as much fun when they don't have to deliberate as much over their one choice. But that's me, and I've always been a bit on the extreme side. Certainly there are people who like "intelligent" hunters.

As your 'Logical Hunter' in one of your game's Nogrod, I agree with Roa. I thorougly enjoyed making the wolves terrified of me, but getting a wolf in my list of three wasn't as satisfying as a successful single choice.

Although I'm still trying to figure out if the game is really all that unbalanced. With no seer (even though the last who knows how many games we manage to lynch the seer...so maybe it's for the village's own good that there isn't one. ) and the roles unable to reveal themselves (is that correct?) it seems not a bad spot for the wolves.

Perhaps an updated, latest draft, of the roles and rules are in order? If you wouldn't mind Nogrod?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps an updated, latest draft, of the roles and rules are in order? If you wouldn't mind Nogrod?

I agree. I've gotten a little lost at where the roles are currently so an updated draft that is still open for change would be fabulous!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Also, with your clarification, it could be that the game ends up without having NG's or a captain. If I don't trust anyone, why would I want to protect them? And why would I put control of the lynch, limited as that control may be, in the hands of someone I don't trust? Perhaps there ought to be more incentive? Though I can't think of what that wouldn't completely unbalance the game...

The game ends up without any guards anyway as when there is only 1/3 of the players left there will be no such roles anymore (if we get into around 20 initial players it would be on 7 players left). It would be too much to have many people immune to Night-kills when there are only a few players left. I think I said that somewhere...

But yes, it would be up to the players to decide with the Captain. I mean I'm trying to make this a moldable game - what you players choose you choose.
Now sure when there is a Captain you have that person there and your way of getting rid of him and his powers is to choose another one by voting - or lynching him. Your choice.

The wolves may get your captain in the last Nights as well (when there are no guards anymore) unless a ranger lives and protects him. Then it's up to you if you wish to elect a new one or go the last Days without one. Both decisions would sound realistic thinking about the situation...

So I won't be "ordering" you to choose a new Captain later when the one you had has died, but you will have to choose one on Day1. That's all I require. The rest - what you do with him or whether you change him to someone else - is up to you.

So you can only get rid of a/the captain by
- voting for another person to be a captain
- lynching him and not choosing a new one
- not voting for a new one after the wolves kill him during the last Days

[Gwathagor]

Ok, Nogrod, I'm in. I'm a little concerned that playing WW will interfere with my film school schedule, but I'll never know until I try it. Disclaimer: my involvement may be less than prodigious.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps an updated, latest draft, of the roles and rules are in order? If you wouldn't mind Nogrod?

I'll try to work it out... soonish.

Just now I'd love to hear as many views as possible to see where the possible problems might be. But like Boro said, I'm not too sure this is unfair for the wolves - on top of what he said there's always the chance different goodies kill other innocents as they go...

But that's just why we need to discuss these before we go; to make sure there are no major flaws around.


FYI: We're (myself, Lommy, Greenie, Aganzir...) heading for our summer-cottage for the weekend and will be back on Sunday-afternoon Finnish time, meaning something like mid-day GMT. I'll post something for the rules before we leave tomorrow and try to wrestle the rules into more or less final shape during the weekend.

I hope we have around twenty players when we come back and we can start the game on Sunday evening with N1 (10PM GMT that was) and the rules cleared.

Meanwhile I would appreciate your comments on the possible problems or things you're possibly uncomfortable with. I'll take a print of this thread with me for the weekend so everything you post in the next 14 hours or so I can take with me to think about there. I will surely read thoroughly also those comments that come during the weekend and take them into account while forming the final rules on Sunday.

If it feels there are major issues to be settled - or if we have like 17 players and some might still come in - we could wait to start the game on Monday or Tuesday but I don't think we should wait for this to begin for ages.


EDIT: Welcome Gwath! And don't worry, it seems the beginning of the semester isn't the best time to play werewolf so many will share your problems - and so there will be less to read... or will there?

[Roa_Aoife]

But like Boro said, I'm not too sure this is unfair for the wolves - on top of what he said there's always the chance different goodies kill other innocents as they go...

Someone has to play wolves' advocate.

Okay, so we have to choose a captain, and it's in the captain's best interest to choose body guards. We do not, however, have to choose night guards, but can if we feel someone needs protection.

Do we change the night guards daily, or only when we decide to lynch them? Also, can a person step down from a voted upon role which they no longer wish to be?

So far-
what the wolves' have going for them: two kills a night to start with, the ability to communicate at night, the possibility that some of the hunters may kill an innocent, the chance to be voted into a role

what the village has going for them: multiple hunters which stand the possibility of killing wolves, one which carries no threat to innocents, possibly 6 or 7 people (nearly half the village) who cannot be killed at night(possibly even 8 with the "you can't get me"), 5 possible innocents who can talk at night

That's at least as I understand it.

[Boromir88]

But you are also assuming that our NG, or BG, or captain choices will not be wolves.

Although I say do away with the Brothers-in-Arms roles, or at least have them not be able to protect eachother.

[Roa_Aoife]

I listed the chance for the wolves be voted into a role as something to their advantage. But barring very clever or very bold wolves, that seems unlikely. Also, it limits their communication. Also, I said possibly 6-8 unkillable innocents.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I listed the chance for the wolves be voted into a role as something to their advantage. But barring very clever or very bold wolves, that seems unlikely. Also, it limits their communication. Also, I said possibly 6-8 unkillable innocents.

Well all the NG and BG does is limit the wolves choices on a particular night. Wouldn't the NGs and BGs have to change each day, because you can't be an NG or BG two nights in a row?

Has it been decided that the wolves communication would be limitted if they have one of the roles? Even if it has there is no possible way for Nogrod to enforce it.

How many of us have strictly stuck to the "communication" rules in every single game? Don't be shy, I'm guilty of not following them. I've talked to fellow "living players" while a game is going on, outside of the game itself. I'm not saying this to be difficult, but my point is, with how some live together, lots know eachother in RL, and with all the other means of communication outside the 'Downs it's unfeasible (and sorry to say a bit...naive) to expect that the communication rules get strictly followed.

Ah well, that's Nogrod's decision and whatever he comes up with, we should do our hardest to honor it. But, I figured I might as well throw it out there, and aknowledge it. When it comes to any type of communication rules, we should no longer be shocked that they get bent, as long as the integrity of the game is not lost (that is to say no one is sharing roles and scheming strategy outside of the game).

[Brinniel]

If you're worried about the game being unbalanced for the wolves, maybe you could give some of them gifted roles too? For example, there could be a ranger wolf who chooses to protect one of his mates (or himself) each Night from hunters who could potentially kill them. And there could be a hunter wolf who selects each Night a player he'd like to take with them if he is lynched or killed. Just a thought.

This is a really complicated game. I'm trying to understand how it's going to work exactly, but the explanations are so lengthy that the words just get jumbled for me and then I end up confused. But hopefully you'll have a simpler, more concise list of rules and how the game works before it begins.

So...I'm still not sure if I can handle such a confusing game while trying to adjust to a new semester. My classes are practically all day four days a week (and I wouldn't be here even close to deadline), and I'm still trying to find a job within the school and if I do, that could take up even more time. Not to mention I still haven't finished unpacking plus I'm dealing with a major shipping issue (where a third of my stuff arrived damaged along with a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong to me, and a significant amount of my books are somewhere in FedEx limbo...grrr). This just basically means that if I play, I won't be very active...though it seems many others are in the same boat. So if you don't mind a clueless and quieter me in the game, then you can sign me up. But put a question mark at the end of my name because I'm still not 100% sure.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

This is a really complicated game. I'm trying to understand how it's going to work exactly, but the explanations are so lengthy that the words just get jumbled for me and then I end up confused. But hopefully you'll have a simpler, more concise list of rules and how the game works before it begins.

As said quite a few times already. Yes, there will be clear-cut rules when the game begins. This has been the discussion on them and no one supposes one should try to collect the final rules from this discussion... They will be there on Sunday.

Just a quick one to Roa and Boro: sure the BG's and NG's change (or can change) - people vote for the NG's every Day and the Captain chooses the NG's every Day. And we could have a rule that same persons shouldn't man the posts two Nights in a row if we wish.

Okay. I'm off to our summer cabin and will be back on Sunday. I'll try to figure out different fair settings for different number of players.

Hopefully three to four people get the idea to still join the game - but we can go with this if no one turns around.


Let me hear your suggestions still even if I'm not answering them in two days. I'll try to clear everything on Sunday. See you soon!

[satansaloser2005]

Bad news, Sir Noggins. I may end up pulling out. I'll let you know.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Bad news, Sir Noggins. I may end up pulling out. I'll let you know.

Unacceptable.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Unacceptable.

Sorry my little wereduckling. I've been too stressed and rather busy of late, so I'm not sure I'm up for this complicated of a game. (Besides, I really could use some time off Werewolf, if there is such a thing.) I may still stay in, but I'm not sure yet.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Sally, I am avoiding a double entendre of epic proportion over this.

You really must make up your mind lest I take advantage of the open opportunity you've handed me.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Sorry my little wereduckling. I've been too stressed and rather busy of late, so I'm not sure I'm up for this complicated of a game. (Besides, I really could use some time off Werewolf, if there is such a thing.) I may still stay in, but I'm not sure yet.

*hugs*

*hands a cookie*

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Sally, I am avoiding a double entendre of epic proportion over this.

You really must make up your mind lest I take advantage of the open opportunity you've handed me.

You know, the gutter's gonna start getting really cold soon. Maybe you should come indoors.

Originally Posted by Nienna

*hugs*

*hands a cookie*

*takes, eats, hugs back*


Well I'll let you all know for sure tomorrow probably. Just don't know yet.

[Valier]

Alright,alright I'm in. I can't say I have all the rules down yet but I'll give it a go.
Just a heads up my fiancee will be helping me out, trying his hand at werewolf (if he likes, he may just join)
Also most days I/we will be voting early.

[Nogrod]

Updated player list (yay, Rune plays as well!)

Fea
Nienna
Inziladun
Sally
Hakon
Rikae
Kath
Loslote
Valier
Greenie
Nerwen
Roa
Lommy
Boro
Legate
Gwath
Brinn
Rune

If Brinn and Sally play we are 18, so I'd make four wolves but only one kill per Night. Does that sound reasonable?

I have considered the different roles and other rules. I'll update the rules later toDay, in 4-5 hours time. Need to get some work out of my hands first.

If someome is still wishing to jump in s/he has about seven hours to do that.

Night1 begins at 10PM GMT.

Any suggestions concerning the rules should be made before that.

[Nogrod]

Okay... Rules & Regulations vers. 1.1. is ready and can be read from the first post of this thread. Please check it.

I have taken the assassin off (too many deaths are possible already) and the "self-defender" (too tough to kill). I have also changed the roles of few hunters to make them more hard to play and more fair overall...

Also I dropped off the normal Cobbler but held the "preventer-Cobbler" as I think that's a nice role that could go either way...

With 18 players, four wolves and one kill per Night I think this should be quite balanced in principle.

Any thoughts? I can change things for 2½ hours still... then the roles will be randomised & sent and the rules will be locked to what they are.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the rules

Night-talkers – One Night-talker will be decided randomly by the mod from those who have no “village elected role” (Captain, BG or NG). The chosen one is notified of the selection after the deadline. The person can choose anyone who has no elected role that Night and the two can PM during that Night as much as they wish.

Do they need to inform you first or can they just start PMing to the others? For example: I get a PM from you that I am a Night-talker, and I pick Boro, so can I PM him straightaway, or do I need to ask you first and you will inform him or something?

Also, I presume, from what you said, that all the Night-guards (well, of course in their case) and BGs will be publicly revealed, so that nobody chooses them. How does the Captain choose the BGs? Is there a form in which he writes it on the thread? (Like, for example, "++BG Boro and Valier") I think that is something that should be taken care of.

Originally Posted by Nog the Mod

The Captain will be chosen on Day1. He stays a Captain as long as he lives or is voted out. Anyone can call for a Captaincy -vote at anytime during any Day. Regardless of how many people vote the one with most votes will be the Captain at the end of the Day (eg. able to make the Captain’s decisions regarding the lynch of that Day). NB. a referendum can not be called for during the last hour of the Day (just to prevent any last minute triggering with the Captaincy with just a few people online) – people can vote for a new Captain to the last minute but an election can not be called forwards at the last moments.

Could you clarify it a bit? What does it mean "will be chosen"? Does it mean that you will choose him before the start? Or that we are bound to choose him on Day 1? And I just want to make sure I understood this sentence correctly:

Originally Posted by Nog

a referendum can not be called for during the last hour of the Day (just to prevent any last minute triggering with the Captaincy with just a few people online) – people can vote for a new Captain to the last minute but an election can not be called forwards at the last moments.

By that you simply mean, that if during all the Day there was not a single vote for Captain, nobody can suddenly cast a for Captain one hour before DL? Is that right, or did you have something else in mind? By "Anyone can call for a Captaincy -vote at anytime during any Day" you mean just simply casting a vote for Captain, right? Or is there something else beyond it, like saying "I hereby call for a referendum today, let us vote for a Captain"? It's just phrased in a slightly confusing way (possibly unnecessarily).

EDIT: Oh, also btw, to the Night-talkers. What if one of them is targeted by the person who ruins the Nightly activities? (forgot what you called the role) In that case, it would be probably necessary to check up with you first before I PM Boro (to use the example I used above) to make sure he was not targeted by this Night-comm destroyer - if that affects him. Though I think it would be best if it didn't, because then it creates an impossibly long chain of events needed before anything can happen, which basically wastes the Night anyway (you need to PM me that I am the Night-talker, the Night-comm destroyer needs to PM you that he targets Boro, I need to PM you that I want to talk to Boro, you need to PM me that I cannot talk to Boro).

EDITEDIT: Oh, and I presume with that Night-traitor, that by "can not prevent things two Nights in a row" you mean "cannot prevent the SAME PERSON from doing something two Nights in a row". Or in other words, cannot target the same person twice in a row. Because the way you phrased it it sounds a bit as if he could use his ability only once per two Nights, just so that it doesn't confuse anybody.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Do they need to inform you first or can they just start PMing to the others? For example: I get a PM from you that I am a Night-talker, and I pick Boro, so can I PM him straightaway, or do I need to ask you first and you will inform him or something?

They should start PM'ing as soon as they wish. I'd like to be informed though who the one chosen to PM was but it would be enough the Night-talker would PM me who s/he will contact. But otherwise, people should just go for it . and I don't need any copies of the messages the Night-talkers send to each other. It's between them.

Also, I presume, from what you said, that all the Night-guards (well, of course in their case) and BGs will be publicly revealed, so that nobody chooses them. How does the Captain choose the BGs? Is there a form in which he writes it on the thread? (Like, for example, "++BG Boro and Valier") I think that is something that should be taken care of.

The Captain decides her/himself how s/he manages all that stuff. It depends on the person and the timezone... I mean one Captain could just PM me her/his choices right after the Day has ended but another might be sleeping and could possibly be online only after a host of hours so maybe s/he would give me some pre-thpoughts on that, like lists of wanted candidates etc.?. Anyway, we need to make a deal - the Captain and myself - as to how to do it. But all the parties to whom it matters will be notified (the wolves, the rangers fex.) as soon as possible.

Could you clarify it a bit? What does it mean "will be chosen"? Does it mean that you will choose him before the start? Or that we are bound to choose him on Day 1?

You have to choose a Captain on Day1. After that it's up to you whether you want to replace a dead Captain with a new one or whether you wish to change the person, but on Day1 you need to vote for a Captain.

By that you simply mean, that if during all the Day there was not a single vote for Captain, nobody can suddenly cast a for Captain one hour before DL? Is that right, or did you have something else in mind? By "Anyone can call for a Captaincy -vote at anytime during any Day" you mean just simply casting a vote for Captain, right? Or is there something else beyond it, like saying "I hereby call for a referendum today, let us vote for a Captain"? It's just phrased in a slightly confusing way (possibly unnecessarily).

The easy interpretation is once more the right one.

The idea is that you can call for changing the Captain simply by voting someone else as the Captain (highlighted vote & the word "Captain" included). Though naturally one would think a person would love to argue why s/he makes the suggestion but that's up to you.

EDIT: Oh, also btw, to the Night-talkers. What if one of them is targeted by the person who ruins the Nightly activities? (forgot what you called the role) In that case, it would be probably necessary to check up with you first before I PM Boro (to use the example I used above) to make sure he was not targeted by this Night-comm destroyer - if that affects him. Though I think it would be best if it didn't, because then it creates an impossibly long chain of events needed before anything can happen, which basically wastes the Night anyway (you need to PM me that I am the Night-talker, the Night-comm destroyer needs to PM you that he targets Boro, I need to PM you that I want to talk to Boro, you need to PM me that I cannot talk to Boro).

We'll make it the easy way here as well eg. we go as it goes. You are able to PM as soon as you get your "role" of a Night-talker (or BG or NG) and unless you are notified of anything different you may go on PM'ing with the people allowed. If the cobbler is able to send me her/his pick only later then the PMing is cancelled from the moment I get the message that it should end. So let's not make this too complicated.

EDITEDIT: Oh, and I presume with that Night-traitor, that by "can not prevent things two Nights in a row" you mean "cannot prevent the SAME PERSON from doing something two Nights in a row". Or in other words, cannot target the same person twice in a row. Because the way you phrased it it sounds a bit as if he could use his ability only once per two Nights, just so that it doesn't confuse anybody.

Yeah, soorry. I need to fix the wording... But your interpretation is right.


PS: I have just randomised the roles and will be sending them in a minute...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The Captain decides her/himself how s/he manages all that stuff. It depends on the person and the timezone... I mean one Captain could just PM me her/his choices right after the Day has ended but another might be sleeping and could possibly be online only after a host of hours so maybe s/he would give me some pre-thpoughts on that, like lists of wanted candidates etc.?. Anyway, we need to make a deal - the Captain and myself - as to how to do it. But all the parties to whom it matters will be notified (the wolves, the rangers fex.) as soon as possible.

Hmm, let's just hope it will work, though I am really worried about this accumulation of Nightly activities. I mean, in theory it should not be that big of a problem with the Rangers or Wolves - they have basically all Night to finally determine whom to attack or protect, and it's likely that the information of who the BGs are will reach them still before they have their last chance to be online during the Night. However, I really don't like the thought of poor Night-talker, who could be basically robbed of half of his Night PMing by waiting for the confirmation whether the person he'd like to talk to is not actually a BG.

If the Captain remains the same from previous Day, it's easy and he can just decide his BGs and post that sometime during the Day, but if he's picked only on this Day, he cannot really announce it before the DL. (Unless you made it so that all people who are possible to become Captains during the Day should post you a BG list, and you used the one of the person who become the Captain.) Well, but anyway, I just guess we need to see and hope that it will work. This game's concept is good, but it would need another mid-Night like in the Dueling Wizards, given the amount of things happening. (I of course am not saying that it should have one, but it just has so many Nightly activities that one Night is just too little for that. I guess nothing can be done about it, we just have to see. Perhaps it won't be as hot as it seems. This is with counting the worst possibilities and timings, anyway.)

You have to choose a Captain on Day1. After that it's up to you whether you want to replace a dead Captain with a new one or whether you wish to change the person, but on Day1 you need to vote for a Captain.

That means, we have to vote - and just for clarification, can we also vote that we don't want any Captain on Day 1? (Normally by voting "no Captain"?)

We'll make it the easy way here as well eg. we go as it goes. You are able to PM as soon as you get your "role" of a Night-talker (or BG or NG) and unless you are notified of anything different you may go on PM'ing with the people allowed. If the cobbler is able to send me her/his pick only later then the PMing is cancelled from the moment I get the message that it should end. So let's not make this too complicated.

Okay, but I guess then it would be the best to say that the Night-traitor doesn't affect the Night-talker and his friend at all. Because that way we avoid any complications and make it fair for everybody. (Because otherwise, the Night-talker who is the fastest to send you whom he's PMing to will be actually in the biggest disadvantage as he will be also the earliest informed that he actually can't PM (if he's been targeted that Night.))

[Nogrod]

The roles are sent!

If someone has not received a PM from me please PM me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hmm, let's just hope it will work, though I am really worried about this accumulation of Nightly activities.

However, I really don't like the thought of poor Night-talker, who could be basically robbed of half of his Night PMing by waiting for the confirmation whether the person he'd like to talk to is not actually a BG.

Don't be too worried... things will settle themselves... And the Night-talker can PM to her/his choice as soon as s/he can. The decisions that prevent that action will come when they come... and will take effect only when they come.

If the Captain remains the same from previous Day, it's easy and he can just decide his BGs and post that sometime during the Day, but if he's picked only on this Day, he cannot really announce it before the DL. (Unless you made it so that all people who are possible to become Captains during the Day should post you a BG list, and you used the one of the person who become the Captain.) Well, but anyway, I just guess we need to see and hope that it will work.

It will work, let me assure you. Let's not work with Kantian deontology where everything is just absolutely either/or but with Aristotelian way of saying that things go case by case... Remember the voted NG's take precedence over the Captain's BG's and the BG's will just be able to discuss after their Captain has named them... it might happen immediately as the Day ends or later during the Night. It's up to the situation.

It makes this actually more "realistic"...

just for clarification, can we also vote that we don't want any Captain on Day 1? (Normally by voting "no Captain"?)

Nope. On Day1 you need to choose a Captain. After that it's up to you if you want to have the role around. It might be handy at some point and might be devastating. Your choice.

Okay, but I guess then it would be the best to say that the Night-traitor doesn't affect the Night-talker and his friend at all. Because that way we avoid any complications and make it fair for everybody. (Because otherwise, the Night-talker who is the fastest to send you whom he's PMing to will be actually in the biggest disadvantage as he will be also the earliest informed that he actually can't PM (if he's been targeted that Night.))

I'd say no to this. The Night-Traitor should be able to affect also the Night-Talkers but the effect goes on only when that person has informed me about it - like with other Nightly-things.

Let's say you Legate have been "chosen" as the Night-Talker. You'll get the PM from me a little bit after the Day has ended (I need to take care of the possible urgent matters first). As soon as you get my PM you can contact any one person you wish (I'd like to hear from you who you choose but otherwise it's between you two). Then if the Cobbler chooses you let's say 12 hours to the Night I'll PM you (and your chosen friend) not to send any PM's any more that Night. And that's it. If the Cobbler has decided to prevent you from doing things already before (like when he has gotten out of the thread for the Day involved) and has notified me of his choice I can tell you immediately after the Day ends that sadly you would have been the Talker but someone prevented it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let's say you Legate have been "chosen" as the Night-Talker. You'll get the PM from me a little bit after the Day has ended (I need to take care of the possible urgent matters first). As soon as you get my PM you can contact any one person you wish (I'd like to hear from you who you choose but otherwise it's between you two). Then if the Cobbler chooses you let's say 12 hours to the Night I'll PM you (and your chosen friend) not to send any PM's any more that Night. And that's it. If the Cobbler has decided to prevent you from doing things already before (like when he has gotten out of the thread for the Day involved) and has notified me of his choice I can tell you immediately after the Day ends that sadly you would have been the Talker but someone prevented it.

Okay, it all sounds fine then. You take care of it. It's indeed more "realistic", as you say, and I am sure you can incorporate it to the narrations. Well, I guess I have no other questions. Let us play

[Nogrod]

The game is on! Here!

Good luck and have fun everyone!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I must object to my untimely death!

As elected Captain I should have been given the opportunity to cancel the lynch altogether (Then the master hunter would not have killed me), but I was declared dead before I had the chance.

(I realised I could not make it back home in time for deadline, but did not worry as I remembered flexibility being mentioned in the rules)

Anyways I hope this bunch of rangers shall rip and be shattered by the shrapnell of darkness!

[Nogrod]

I can feel your pain Rune and I'm quite unhappy you were killed (just as a personal note - as a mod I try to be as balanced and fair I can).

But sure you wouldn't have cancelled the lynching of Hakon without knowing he was after you - and being the Master-Hunter? So "wisdom of late" is it?

And the next one behind you two were two votes away so you wouldn't even had a licence to get anyone else lynched.

Anyway the Captain was actually produced at the same moment as the lynch was declared so the ability to cancel a lynching factually concerns only those Captains that are Captains before and after the DL at the end of the Day. Just imagine the complexity of the execution and rulings if that were not so...

Sad to see you go so early though.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can feel your pain Rune and I'm quite unhappy you were killed (just as a personal note - as a mod I try to be as balanced and fair I can).

But sure you wouldn't have cancelled the lynching of Hakon without knowing he was after you - and being the Master-Hunter? So "wisdom of late" is it?

And the next one behind you two were two votes away so you wouldn't even had a licence to get anyone else lynched.

Anyway the Captain was actually produced at the same moment as the lynch was declared so the ability to cancel a lynching factually concerns only those Captains that are Captains before and after the DL at the end of the Day. Just imagine the complexity of the execution and rulings if that were not so...

All this does is show that there was, well maybe not a flaw in the rules, but atleast a lack of information in them.

I should probably be careful what I say about what I would and wouldn't have done, as it could be analysed and is therefor better saved for after the game. Anyways I will say that I did consider the option of canceling the lynch if I got the chance. (I can always elaborate more after the game)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

All this does is show that there was, well maybe not a flaw in the rules, but atleast a lack of information in them.

You're absolutely right and I do apologise. My fault.

There seems to be few things I have thought of by myself but haven't voiced out clearly enough in the rules (partly due to the fact that the last day before the game started ended up being more hectic in RL terms than I expected). I'll try to figure out if there are still ones that haven't been explained.

But I'll open this one up first.

The idea is that to gain the power to cancel lynchings or change the lynchee the Captain should have gained the trust of the people; being the Captain for two Days in a row (=being elected the Day before and not sacked / voted out on the next) would be just that.

Yes, I was actually after some leadership with the Captain-role - whoever takes it. And few soldiers follow tough rulings of a Captain they don't value highly enough. That's the kind of realistic agenda behind it.

The newly appointed Captain would only have power over a case of a vote-tie. Without that power the Captain would only be one who is protected during the Night added with some Night-talker abilities - so a paper-leader.

So even a newly chosen Captain has some power but only a "trusted" Captain can yield real power (cancelling the lynch altogether, changing the lynchee to someone having one vote less than the one getting lynched otherwise).

[Roa_Aoife]

You may have received a message that I posted on the game thread. I was using the reply box for formatting purposes on an analysis I was doing and accidentally hit "Submit reply." I have deleted the post. Please don't mod fire me.

[Nogrod]

Okay.

The narration for Day1 is finally at place and the one for Night2 is coming soon (in time anyway). Sorry. I just had a hectic day and had not too much time to do these. It will be better on the next days as my RL timetable looks easier.

To answer the queries (Nerwen in the thread and Roa here): there will be no modfire in this game (it reads in the rules).

The only exception would be that someone was caught "red-handed" violating the basic rules that form the athmosphere of general trust and goodwill on the part of the players aka. having conversations about the game with confidential information about the roles done outside the game etc...

I discourage you to talk about the game in msn or RL (or wherever) in general, even with your best mates as long as you both are alive. I know it's hard. But one might accidentally slip something and for that reason... try to stay calm.

But the real offence would be to talk about your own roles.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yeah, seriously, just don't talk about the game at all.

I nearly smacked Stick when she and Lari were staying with Nienna and me and Stick was musing over which players sent her PMs and which just sent them to Lari.

"Fea doesn't send me PMs, she just messages me on MSN."

"Yeah," I said, looking worriedly at Nienna, glaring at Stick, and quickly typing 'Fail STICK!!!' to Lari. "It's hard, you know, when you can't talk to anybody, so a lot of people send PMs to the mods just so that they can have an audience to their thoughts."

Ooh, I glared at Stick... Way to tell Nienna I had a role that required Nightly PMversations with the mod!

So yes. Slips happen, and you should just avoid all game-discussion until all y'all are dead.

/anecdote

[Boromir88]

I guess since I assume Nog is sleeping now, and I don't know when he will get my message. It's best if I just inform ye all, I need to leave the group of Rangers. I thought I could squeeze in another game, but that aint happening, there's too much going on. I requested to be killed at the end of the Day, so do with me what you will.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I guess since I assume Nog is sleeping now, and I don't know when he will get my message. It's best if I just inform ye all, I need to leave the group of Rangers. I thought I could squeeze in another game, but that aint happening, there's too much going on. I requested to be killed at the end of the Day, so do with me what you will.