Why destroy Laketown's bridge?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

But the people of Laketown are looking up into the skies and they see a fire breathing dragon the size of a large building flying towards them at a very quick speed. And what is their reaction to this?

Quick - destroy the bridge.

For me, and I guess it just me, that does not even approach the level of believability that I need to suspend disbelief. It does not pass the smell test.
The answer to the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the problem.

How could they defend themselves against Smaug? Apart from arrows (so they thought), there were only two things they could do: prepare as much water as possible (which they did) and make sure that the dragon at least can't land and cause even more damage. This has nothing to do with belief - it just makes plain sense. What else could they have done? What do you suggest instead?

The only other option is to flee. But as Rune has pointed out, they probably kept very little horses at Esgaroth, and you just can't escape from a flying, fire-breathing dragon on foot. Even if everybody would have run into a different direction, Smaug would have killed most of them by his fire. Within the town, the people had a limited ability to fight the fires, not so on the land.

Tolkien didn't provide us with a stat sheet about Smaug. We don't know his exact size, shape and weight, not his endurance or style of flying or landing. The people of Laketown, and the people who built Laketown and its bridges, probably knew a bit more about it. All we can do is deduce these things from the given text. From his death scene we know that his weight was great enough to crash through the city, yet presumably little enough to be able to walk through or over it. His style of flying apparently didn't allow him to slow down his flight and land like a bird on a twig. His armour was strong enough to allow him to land anywhere on the shore - he didn't have to care about how many trees he would mow down. I would say that the builders of Laketown had this in mind and built their town and bridges like this in order to have a chance of avoiding the fate of Dale (do we know how exactly Dale was destroyed? I don't have my book with me right now, and it could be interesting to check).

[The Sixth Wizard]

Here's a classic picture of Smaug.



You think THAT could land on Esgaroth rooftops? Pssshh...

[Rikae]

Good points, Sixth, just one thing I'd like to mention:

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The Hobbit reads "the bridge was thrown down and destroyed." I personally would presume it was by burning. Although "thrown down" appears to indicate it was ripped apart, Tolkien uses the word "destroy". If it was ripped down, Tolkien would have used words like "broken" instead, which seems to me to indicate it was burned. It would certainly make sense.

I think this description fits quite well with the suspension-bridge scenario - the bridge could be both "cut" and literally "thrown down". When the bridge is also "destroyed", it could very well be that it was first cut loose, then set on fire (setting it on fire without cutting it loose first risks setting the city on fire as well).

I would imagine the bridges probably had guards posted and these guards, during their initial training, were taught the emergency bridge-destruction plan, shown where the tools were kept and which ropes to cut if the signal was given, something of this nature. Even in the absence of guards, those who lived and worked near the bridges would have been similarly prepared. If the villiage is small enough, everyone might have known said emergency plan and been prepared to execute it.

[davem]

Tolkien's drawing of Laketown.



Not sure how easy it would be to throw down this bridge, though its possible that the pillars supporting it were held in place by the planks, so that if you removed them the pillars would fall sideways into the lake.

[Sauron the White]

A picture says a thousand words.
Thank you to davem for supplying that drawing of Laketown. It does two things to reinforce my point:
1- the bridge is no flimsy thing supported by ropes. It is on strong and thick pillars. And like davem says, it looks like it is not easily destroyed without yet another litany of assumptions about many thing not visibe in the picture or written about in the text.
2- the area of the docks between the water and the buildings is indeed much wider than the actual bridge itself. Given the thinness of Smaug (again based on the other JRRT painting) he could have just as easilly landed on any of that docking space as opposed to that bridge. Which is what I have been saying from the very beginning. Smaug did not need the bridge if his intention was to land and go house to house.

I do think that if this passage had been written for LOTR, it would have been longer, more fully developed and the detail much crisper and clearer. JRRT would have explained what Smaugs intentions were, and perhaps explained why it ws necessary to thrown down and destroy the bridge. JRRT was such a superb writer that I have no doubt it would have made perfect sense.

Having said that, THE HOBBIT was written on a far different level and that type of explaination and detail was simply not there. As a result, we get a rather confusing couple of lines that are open to various different meanings.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Or maybe the people were just thinking Smaug needed that other front to actually destroy the city? They might have been wrong but still acted as they acted according to their belief.

The trouble with that interpretation, though, is that Tolkien does tell us Smaug was foiled - so the Lakemen's action was effective in some way. Now, I suppose it's possible that they cut down the bridge to foil Smaug in one way while he was actually foiled in a completely different way (they thought he had one plan involving the bridge while he really had another), but the simplest and most likely explanation is that the plan they thought he had and the one he actually had were the same.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Not sure how easy it would be to throw down this bridge, though its possible that the pillars supporting it were held in place by the planks, so that if you removed them the pillars would fall sideways into the lake.

Quite possible. At least the left part of the bridge looks funnily enough like suspension bridge. Another thing is, where that boat on the right thinks it is going? It has nowhere much to land there, and it is positively heading into the dead end part between the town and the bridge. Maybe it expects the bridge to lift in front of it?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

1- the bridge is no flimsy thing supported by ropes. It is on strong and thick pillars. And like davem says, it looks like it is not easily destroyed.

It doesn't look easily thrown down, to be sure. For that matter, Smaug looks entirely too long and thin for a flying creature.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

2- the area of the docks between the water and the buildings is indeed much wider than the actual bridge itself. Given the thinness of Smaug (again based on the other JRRT painting) he could have just as easilly landed on any of that docking space as opposed to that bridge.

Several people have already said Smaug's plan was probably to cross the bridge, not to land on it.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Quite possible. At least the left part of the bridge looks funnily enough like suspension bridge. Another thing is, where that boat on the right thinks it is going? It has nowhere much to land there, and it is positively heading into the dead end part between the town and the bridge. Maybe it expects the bridge to lift in front of it?

I also wonder why the bridge seems to end up at least ten feet above ground level on the side attached to land - not to mention that the house is placed so close to its end as to make traffic to and from the bridge difficult.

Hmm... there appear to be spikes affixed to the larger roofs. I wonder what the intended purpose of those could be?

[The Sixth Wizard]

I'd think that Smaug wouldn't want to land on the walkways around Laketown because of their possible flimsiness and the likelihood of him falling in or touching the water. At least he knew that the bridge could hold heavy objects that were carted across every day...

It may also be *gasp* not a very good picture...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

I'd think that Smaug wouldn't want to land on the walkways around Laketown because of their possible flimsiness and the likelihood of him falling in or touching the water. At least he knew that the bridge could hold heavy objects that were carted across every day...

He probably could also maneuver much more carefully on foot than he could in landing - so, land on solid ground and walk across the bridge.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't know much about throwing down bridges, which is weird as it is what we Danes do best. . . but I have read about several cases where massive bridges was thrown down relatively quickly. Now this is a wooden bridge, this definitly is an advantage if you want to throw it down, but we have a hughe problem. . . We cannot know how the bridge was cunstructed, the fact that there is a lot of pillars tells us nothing of how strong the bridge was.

Burning bridges on the other hand, at that I am an expert!

About Smaug landing on the docking area or whatever it is between the houses and the water: Indeed it looks like there is plenty of space at the part closest to us, but if you look where it is level with the bridge it is actually quite difficult to say how broad any of the things is.

To reach a final conclution on this matter we really need to know about Smaug and Lake Towns siezes and Smaugs flying abilities.

[Alfirin]

I don't think Smaug would want to completely destroy Esgaroth, just do enough damge to put the town in fear of him again. The town would be a useful source of tribute to him if not in gold than in food. A dragon as big as Smaugh would need a lot of food and Esgaroth's livestock (not to mention its citizens) would be like a cornucopia of low effort munchies (swoop down grab something and dinner is served; no hunting required)

As to the question of smaug's landing in Esagroth proper, I think it really depends on exactly what shape you think smaug is. If you think he is a stocky lizard shape then your right he can't if you think he is more sinous and flexible in from then he migh be able to coit around a rooftop. and if you belive (as I do) that flying dragons were closer to wyvrens in shape (i.e. that the wings were attached to the front legs not coming independenly out of the back) than smaug migh have landed in a more bipedal sitting, stance, in which case the space needed would be much less (say the size of the town square)

As to the comments on my earlier post I agree I had frogotten about boats however I'm not sure that there would have been sufficient boatage to get everyone off the island. most of the boats would proably have been small fishing vessels capable of holding five or six people tops. The vast majority would still have been stuck without the bridge. Moreover boats would not be as safe and exit as they sound at first. It takes time to set sails and rowing is slow. The hot air, both from Smaug and the burning city would probably have mucked up the wind assuming there was any that night. All the boat leaving at once would have ment serious problems with wakes bulding on each other into waves. Not to mention that anyone in a boat would be more or less a stiing duck should Smaug decide to fly over and spary them with flame. (or if he was really clever slap the water with his tail and make some serios waves. On that subject I'm not sure where everone is getting the idea that spraying water at Smaug would have been an effective weapon. Dragon fire (unlike say a campfire) is most likey self renew and probably cant be squetched by spraying liquid in the mouth (if it could than a dragons flame would go out every time it ate or drank. Water might have been good for putting out the fires Smaug made but any water sprayed at him while he was breathing flame would have probably just evaporated.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

It may also be *gasp* not a very good picture...

Apart from the problems already mentioned, note that in the text Tolkien talks of bridges, while this Laketown only possesses one. The prof probably didn't have pedantic accuracy in mind when he drew this.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I've just found an interesting new line. Bard says, "Cut the bridges!" indicating to me at least that they were in fact dropped, not burnt. My bad...

There's a few problems in your post Alfrin:

I don't think Smaug would want to completely destroy Esgaroth, just do enough damge to put the town in fear of him again. The town would be a useful source of tribute to him if not in gold than in food. A dragon as big as Smaugh would need a lot of food and Esgaroth's livestock (not to mention its citizens) would be like a cornucopia of low effort munchies (swoop down grab something and dinner is served; no hunting required)

As to the question of smaug's landing in Esagroth proper, I think it really depends on exactly what shape you think smaug is. If you think he is a stocky lizard shape then your right he can't if you think he is more sinous and flexible in from then he migh be able to coit around a rooftop. and if you belive (as I do) that flying dragons were closer to wyvrens in shape (i.e. that the wings were attached to the front legs not coming independenly out of the back) than smaug migh have landed in a more bipedal sitting, stance, in which case the space needed would be much less (say the size of the town square)

As to the comments on my earlier post I agree I had frogotten about boats however I'm not sure that there would have been sufficient boatage to get everyone off the island. most of the boats would proably have been small fishing vessels capable of holding five or six people tops. The vast majority would still have been stuck without the bridge. Moreover boats would not be as safe and exit as they sound at first. It takes time to set sails and rowing is slow. The hot air, both from Smaug and the burning city would probably have mucked up the wind assuming there was any that night. All the boat leaving at once would have ment serious problems with wakes bulding on each other into waves. Not to mention that anyone in a boat would be more or less a stiing duck should Smaug decide to fly over and spary them with flame. (or if he was really clever slap the water with his tail and make some serios waves. On that subject I'm not sure where everone is getting the idea that spraying water at Smaug would have been an effective weapon. Dragon fire (unlike say a campfire) is most likey self renew and probably cant be squetched by spraying liquid in the mouth (if it could than a dragons flame would go out every time it ate or drank. Water might have been good for putting out the fires Smaug made but any water sprayed at him while he was breathing flame would have probably just evaporated.

Lets think about it; Smaug was pretty majorly peeved, I can't find a passage but he sure wanted to burn that place down. He didn't spare Dale, which was much closer, for tribute reasons, why would he spare Esgaroth? Dragons such as Smaug tended to sleep all day and were mystical creatures, they may not have needed so much food as they did gold, to sate their hunger.

An overly twisted dragon cannot fly all that well (at least not in take-off). I think Smaug was a mix of the two styles, wyvern and lizard.

Water I believe was used more as a fear element and to douse fires on the houses, not against Smaug. Dragon fire must not have been self-renew, because otherwise Beleriand would still be burning! At least the villagers thought water was a good tool, so it must have helped somewhat.

As for the boats, it is expressly stated that everyone had evacuated via boat, and this is Lake Town we're talking about, boats were how they got around and did business, every family must have had at least one.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Apart from the problems already mentioned, note that in the text Tolkien talks of bridges, while this Laketown only possesses one. The prof probably didn't have pedantic accuracy in mind when he drew this.

Indeed (that's my point in babbling about "10 feet above ground level" etc.)
I love Tolkien's illustrations - their style and feel is delightful - but this wouldn't be the first time one seemed to make something in the text impossible (I can't remember which, but I know I've looked at one of his drawings before and thought "but that's not accurate! It's not like that in the book!")

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

There's a few problems in your post Alfrin:

An overly twisted dragon cannot fly all that well (at least not in take-off). I think Smaug was a mix of the two styles, wyvern and lizard.

Water I believe was used more as a fear element and to douse fires on the houses, not against Smaug. Dragon fire must not have been self-renew, because otherwise Beleriand would still be burning! At least the villagers thought water was a good tool, so it must have helped somewhat.

As for the boats, it is expressly stated that everyone had evacuated via boat, and this is Lake Town we're talking about, boats were how they got around and did business, every family must have had at least one.

When I said twisted I meant like a snake can coil around on itself in a ring or wrap itslef around a branch; as the body took fligh it would uncoil (much as how a snake when it starts moving uncoils itlsef

By the fire being "self renewing" I meant self renewing inside the (living) dragon. If something was set on fire by a dragon it could of course be put out; all I meant was that I don't think that if you squirt wather down a dragons throat it keeps him from breathing fire (i.e. you can't put out a dragon's pilot light except by killing the dragon or destroying the organ (whatever it is). Given that I'm not sure why Smaug would be afraid of water (or did you mean something by fear element I'm not getting) Falling into the lake, sure, assuming that Smaug can't swim (he was already mortally wounded when he hit the lake so the question of wether he would have had a problme if he had hit it while still heathy is in my opinon still open. Some snakes can swim so maybe snaky dragons can, too) The only reason I can think of that water might worry Smaug would be that if enough water was sprayed on his belly the gunk/slime that holds the jewels in place might dissolve and his whole belly would again be vulnerable. However the men of Laketown would not know this and so could not have prepared water for this. In fact if the last time anyone saw smaugh was when he sacked Dale (before killing off the dwarves) he may not have had the jewel armor yet (no hoard to make it from)

I concede that smaug might not need tribute food and might destroy esgaroth to the ground and take its gold (though if he was smart he would realize that as long as there are still people there more gold will come in. Destroy everthing and you can sack only once, destroy a little and you can sack again and again) but still he may have to much malice in him to think that far ahead. Likewise I was not aware they said that there boats enough for all so I retract that part.

[The Sixth Wizard]

By the fire being "self renewing" I meant self renewing inside the (living) dragon.

Ah my mistake.

Actually I was always at a loss as to how Smaug kept those jewels on him... obviously they are his most prized ones or the most hard, so he wouldn't want them to fall off. I always thought they kind of "stuck on", as though he had lain on them for so long they just stick, like say, when you breathe on a spoon and stick it to your nose..

Dragon anatomy ... now THAT would be a cool topic.

[Rikae]

I think, Alfirin, that you're right in saying that spraying water on Smaug wouldn't put out his fire, but it certainly seems like total immersion in cold water would, at least temporarily, do so.

If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for
days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through.

(Assuming "quench him" means it would impair his fire-producing ability.)

[Sauron the White]

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

[alatar]

Not sure of the exact mechanism, but under extreme magnification I noted that the bridge was designed to repel Smaug.

[Sauron the White]

That was rather funny. Very clever Alatar.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

Text and picture obviously do not match (just take the number of bridges). Therefore, one must be faulty. Since I think Tolkien was much more careful about what he wrote than he was about what he drew, in the case of contradiction I would take the description and discard the depiction.

And even if we take the picture, landing on those docks looks dangerous, considering Smaug's speed and the fact that one misstep would make him end up in the lake.

Originally Posted by Sauron

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

It would support the weight, but perhaps not the impact. He did crash through it when he died, and do we know whether he was able to sufficiently slow down before landing? I still think it is believable that Smaug was not able to land inside the town, but apart from the fact that it is said that he was unable to, there appears to be no evidence to either side.

Originally Posted by Sauron

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Originally Posted by Sauron

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

Seems a silly analogy indeed. It would be analogous if there had been a bridge over the channel, and if there had been one, you can bet it would have been torn down in a minute.

[Sauron the White]

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Based on that drawing, it looks like Laketown is a crowded place without much room for a large beast like Smaug to maneuver around, let alone quickly. I would think that to box him into a small area where several buildings converge would give attackers on the ground their best chance at him. His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those? It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards. I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

I would equate Smaugs boasting to modern day pro wreslters who thump their chests and boast how they will rip out the organs of their opponent while reading from a prepared script. Its part of the show and is all hype and bluster. I think Smaug was not above that sort of thing.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

I don't know where you get the idea that Smaug's advantages (or even his greatest advantages) are speed and agility. What about his size and strength (knocking down roofs with his tail, crashing through the city), his fiery breath and his armour? If you want to fight him at close range, be my guest - I'd prefer to keep my distance.

It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards.

Indeed, they are not going upwards, and therefore are aimed at the toughest part of the dragon.

I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

They can use buildings more effectively for this purpose when Smaug isn't close enough to smash or incinerate said buildings.

[Sauron the White]

It is wonderful that the human condition permits us to take the same set of facts and come to the very opposite conclusions.

[Bêthberry]

As to the question of bridge versus bridges, it is quite possible that Laketown had internal bridges and not only the one bridge leading from shore to "pontoon" town, as it were. (Yes, I know the town was not technically a floating town.) Tolkien's drawing uses the perspective of the shoreline and so would not necessarily show the inner bridge work, although it does show possible side "canals" into the town. It does not in fact show the sheltering rock which his text mentions either--again, simply the fact that one drawing cannot reproduce all the aspects of perspective available to a written text. In this case, the thousand words actually are more informative.

Originally Posted by TH, "A Warm Welcome"

Not far from the mouth of the Forest River was the strange town he heard the elves speak of in the king's cellars. It was not built on the shore, though there were a few huts and buildings there, but right out on the surface of the lake, protected from the swirl of the entering river by a promontory of rock which formed a calm bay. A great bridge made of wood ran out to where on huge piles made of forest trees was built a busy wooden town, not a town of elves but of Men, who still dared to dwell here under the shadow of the distant dragon-mountain.

Interestingly, Alan Lee's drawing of Laketown picks up on this possiblity of canals:



As for whether a fire breathing dragon could be squelched by spirts of SuperSoakers, well, that depends upon the anatomy of said dragon and the method of producing the fire. Certainly it is unlikely that any internal forge is at work, as we would have to question how the dragon's interal organs would withstand the fire. Here's a most interesting analysis of how intelligently to design a fire breathing dragon:

The Scientifc Feasibility of Fire Breathing Dragons

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

As for the generation of fire, the spark necessary to ignite the gas from this bladder could easily be what the SuperSoakers would aim for. So they would not necessarily be putting out the flames so much as inhibiting the production of the flames.

[davem]

Destroying the bridge is the smartest thing to do in terms of survival - you set up a defensive position, with no access from/to the shore & fill it with archers. This allows the rest of the population to escape in dribs & drabs by boats, landing at many different points around the lake, while Smaug is distracted in attacking the town. Having everybody trying to escape via the bridge would be idiotic, as they'd all be funneled onto the same part of the shore line. Bard & the defenders are setting themselves up as a diversion to allow their fellow citizens to escape.

Now, of course, that may not have worked out:

Soon all the town would be deserted and burned down to the surface of the lake.
That was the dragon's hope. They could all get into boats for all he cared. There he could have fine sport hunting them, or they could stop till they starved. Let them try to get to land and he would be ready. Soon he would set all the shoreland woods ablaze and wither every field and pasture. Just now he was enjoying the sport of town-baiting more than he had enjoyed anything for years.

but the point is they are fighting for survival against almost impossible odds. Most likely they will all die but they're making the best of a very bad situation. Quite simply, destroying the bridge is just marginally smarter than not destroying it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It is wonderful that the human condition permits us to take the same set of facts and come to the very opposite conclusions.

It's that 'priors' thing, or which colour your spectacles are when you view said data.

And, not to add too much more, but aren't all aerial attacks followed up by a ground assault? Was Smaug just trying to stay on script? Did Sauron, who could have used Smaug if he were living at the time of the Fellowship, somehow want Smaug to preserve what he could of Laketown to use as a base?

[The Sixth Wizard]

Those who think it would be smarter to attack Smaug while he was landridden, I don't think you get the fear factor here. Fighting him with bows as he swoops lazily over your burning town is scary enough; fighting a monster who can breathe fire on wood (again, wood) with close range weapons is just too much for even the bravest warriors. No-one would stay to fight, except maybe Bard.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

while the city was crowded and cramped not allowing him to land, it was big enough for him to manuever around - or perhaps small enough enabling him to walk over the structures

Do you know how strong Smaug is?

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Even if this is an exaggeration, he could easily take down buildings with his arms and tail. This would be easy for him. He just walks around, smashing down buildings and killing all people in his way.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those?

He had eye-caps like snakes. If Melkor designed a killing machine based on a reptile, wouldn't he have given it the best weapons protection reptiles had to offer? In fact, wouldn't he have give it the best weapons and protection any animal has to offer (And beyond)?

And as for your question of how they broke down the bridges?

What about Motte and bailey castles ages ago (around 1066+). They could get rid of that bridge immediately. (examples here, here, here, here and here
Or they could end it with a drawbridge, like here and here

[The Sixth Wizard]

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

Let's forget about this methane-bladder theory, please. Dragon's fire, at least in Tolkien, is created through the physical form of the dragon's inner fea, the fire spirit that has been corrupted by Morgoth. Adding in actual bodily elements, while quite interesting, is much too complicated for this thread methinks. I think we should keep it simple for now.

Sorry to completely snub you Bêth...

[Sauron the White]

from eonwe

Do you know how strong Smaug is?

Wiseguy answer #1- if you have stats as to his ablities to lift weights please provide them.
Wiseguy answer #2 - no and neither do you, its all speculation and conjecture

Actual answer to your question: You seem to accept the premise that Smaug needs to land in Laketown at all. Again, there is no evidence that Smaug intended to land in Laketown or needed to land in Laketown. Tearning down a bridge to thwart a flying creature who is attacking you in the air is nonsensical no matter how many people want to talk about land invasions.

And yet again I refer you and others to the actual drawing that JRRT made of Laketown where it clearly shows wide dockside areas that are much wider than the bridge. If Smaug had intended to land in the town, he clearly had ample space to do so. The fact is this: he did not chose to do so.

He had eye-caps like snakes. If Melkor designed a killing machine based on a reptile, wouldn't he have given it the best weapons protection reptiles had to offer? In fact, wouldn't he have give it the best weapons and protection any animal has to offer (And beyond)?

You give this information as if it were holy writ that has been approved by decades of scientific investigation. Melkor himself spent long years trying to breed dragons and failed continually to get the ones that he wanted to get. They were imperfect. How do you know that Smaug was such a perfect fighting machine with the protections you ascribe to him? Again, its all speculation and conjecture. You do not KNOW what his eyes were any more than I do. I am speculating that he had his eyes open to see what was going on. Those eyes are targets for someone on the ground close to them.

They could get rid of that bridge immediately. (examples here, here, here, here and here
Or they could end it with a drawbridge, like here and here

Thank you for those pictures. Sadly, none of them are the bridge that Tolkien himself drew and is pictured in this thread. The bridge Tolkien drew is different and more substantial with thick pillars supporting it along its span. It is not a drawbridge, or a suspension bridge and there is no mention of it being rigged for easy destruction. Just the opposite. Tolkine's own illustration - which conveniently some here want to dismiss because it supports my argument - shows a substantial structure built on many thick pillars. There is nothing to quickly "cut".

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Let's forget about this methane-bladder theory, please. Dragon's fire, at least in Tolkien, is created through the physical form of the dragon's inner fea, the fire spirit that has been corrupted by Morgoth. Adding in actual bodily elements, while quite interesting, is much too complicated for this thread methinks. I think we should keep it simple for now.

Sorry to completely snub you Bêth...

Oh, not a snub at all, no need to apologize, Sixth Wiz.

Your comment simply demonstrates your relative newbie-ness, as someone who, having joined in April 2006, likely has not had the pleasure of recognizing how some of us olde timers like to posit hypotheses. I refer you of course to one of the most speculative of threads, started April 10, 2005 (heavens! but three years old, almost still smelling of that new car smell!), alatar's "Snow Angels" thread , wherein Lalwende reports her extensive experiments with custard. It is possible methane had a passing mention there too. I believe it was Mister Underhill and Sharkey who contributed mightily to instigating this particular form of speculation--their thread certainly would not have any lingering new car smell. I bet Esty could provide a link to that thread.

Do continue of course with your own speculations. I suppose we could posit that Gandalf had no need for a staff to focus his fireworks, but simply preferred not to be mistaken for a mouthy dragon.

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

I don't think dragons can hover; any soaring lizards of today can not fly efficiently and, more to the point, flying lizards of the dinosaurs' time such as Quetzalcoatlus could not hover or even take off without updrafts, and those creatures were built purely for flight. Smaug is built like a lizard in Tolkien's pictures, not a cat. Lizards such as Australian goannas can not curl up like a dragon would need to do in order to land on buildings. Therefore the dragon would be forced to do a series of fly-bys, with fire breath in short bursts, before wheeling around and attacking again. Indeed, in the book, Smaug is described as "swooping".

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.

But, as TSW points out, perhaps Smaug had relatively large wings and flew more like a buzzard or condor (primarily soaring and using an occasional vertical wing stroke to recover altitude and velocity). If so, he might need to use a high altitude (i.e. Lonely Mountain) launching site and thermal updrafts to take flight.

So perhaps Smaug did not land in Lake Town because he knew he would not be able to take off again from that low altitude situation, and without a bridge would be trapped unless he could swim (which is unknown).

[Eönwë]

Sauron the White, I am sure that there is something about Glaurung's which suggests this, and when I have more time I'll try to find the quote for you.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galendor

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.

But, as TSW points out, perhaps Smaug had relatively large wings and flew more like a buzzard or condor (primarily soaring and using an occasional vertical wing stroke to recover altitude and velocity). If so, he might need to use a high altitude (i.e. Lonely Mountain) launching site and thermal updrafts to take flight.

So perhaps Smaug did not land in Lake Town because he knew he would not be able to take off again from that low altitude situation, and without a bridge would be trapped unless he could swim (which is unknown).

Is the first part about the wings a joke? It is just that I cannot see how there can be common knowledge about a fable-animal, the descirption of dragons are very different depending on what part of the world you are in and in some places there are no "given" form that the dragon has.

About Smaug needing thermal updrafts: It is a possibility, but would that not limit is mobility? It would be extremely difficult for him to fly away from whatever mountain range he was living by, just like you never see the big vultures of South America very far from the mountains.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Those who think it would be smarter to attack Smaug while he was landridden, I don't think you get the fear factor here. Fighting him with bows as he swoops lazily over your burning town is scary enough; fighting a monster who can breathe fire on wood (again, wood) with close range weapons is just too much for even the bravest warriors. No-one would stay to fight, except maybe Bard.

That's a good point, although I'm not convinced it was the primary reason they wanted the bridge gone.

But imagine yourself being a soldier of Lake Town and watching Smaug approach, ablaze and terrifying in all his might. What would you rather have him do? Sweeping down and blasting the town from above, or raiding it on foot?

I for one would much prefer the former. At least you see him coming and have the chance to hide or dive into the water (if available) if his attack looks like it's coming your way. And if you're lucky, his arial assult is directed at another part of town and you get a chance to fire away a few arrows in his direction.

For as The Sixth Wizard notes, no one would dare face him on foot. We don't know exactly how big and strong Smaug was, but we do know he single-handedly wiped out a great dwarven city with plenty of warriors much tougher than the men of Lake Town. There an arial attack would be useless too, as the city was underground. He must have been formidable indeed: the fear and dread of seing him up close would put panic and despair into the most hardy of warriors. And even if Bard and a few stout men would stand to face him it would without doubt avail to nothing, he would've crushed those he didn't roast.

As Davem said, destroying the bridge a better option than not destroying the bridge, although they still had it coming if it wasn't for great luck.

And please StW, don't ask me to explain how they managed to do so. I do not know how they did it, no one here knows. JRRT perhaps had a good idea in his head of how this was done, perhaps he didn't. All we know is what he wrote, and in The Hobbit the bridges of Lake Town were "cut" before Smaug could get there.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Galendor

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.
.

'Twas funny at that. Now I have a vivid mental image of a rather fat Smaug with tiny wings buzzing like a bumblebee over the heads of terrified but somewhat giggling villagers

[Sauron the White]

from skip spence

And please StW, don't ask me to explain how they managed to do so. I do not know how they did it, no one here knows. JRRT perhaps had a good idea in his head of how this was done, perhaps he didn't. All we know is what he wrote, and in The Hobbit the bridges of Lake Town were "cut" before Smaug could get there.

Well in truth Skip, we have a great deal more than "all we know is what he wrote". JRRT also gave us visuals of his world. In the case of Laketown, the picture that he himself drew clearly shows a rather substantial bridge with many thick pylons supporting it. It is clearly not a suspension bridge or something with ropes holding it up so that it can be quickly "cut".

That same drawing also evidences wide docks that are built along the same lines of the rest of the town. If Smaug wanted to land, and there is no evidence in the text or in drawings that was his intention, he had ample space to do so on the wide docks surrounding Laketown. But he decided not to.

So we do have much more than just what he wrote.