The Balrog vs The Witch King

[davem]

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

Provided he stood still ... I heard that trolls wielding a hundred-feet long ram are somewhat slow and clumsy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Provided he stood still ... I heard that trolls wielding a hundred-feet long ram are somewhat slow and clumsy.

That's what they want you to think........

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Clearly, the Witch King is feeling as if he can stand up to Gandalf, although it is not clear that understands completely that Gandalf's own power has been substantially enhanced.
'

Perhaps the Witch King was ordered by Sauron to tackle the threat of Gandalf once & for all. Either way, since Gandalf & the Balrog are both Maia then you would think Sauron would be a more realistic threat. The Witch King is indeed powerful, & his increased power ensures a battle with a Balrog would be no walkover, yet the outcome must ultimately be a victory for the Balrog.

Unfortunately, Tolkein's attempt to saviour the character & integrity of the Witch King in volume III does not bear enough fruit. The Witch King needs to have something about him which the Balrog does not, & it seems only Sauron could fit this role.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Now, Arwen vs. Eowyn! In the mud-pit! Clothes-ripping allowed! Now, that I'd pay money to see

Hey, now. Don't go spoiling this intellectual discussion with tacky lowbrow comments. Let's stick to arguing about the outcome of an imaginary duel between demons and magicians.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Well, take the breaking of the Gates of the City on its own value then, it is an impressive display of force, and as I believe you said, indicates clearly the augmentation of the WK's power.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Neither we, the more knowledgeable fans, nor the first time reader, have witnessed the WK display such force, although he had ample reasons.

No, the Witch-King always had more power than the first two books suggest, but his mission was to hunt in secrecy. That's the whole point. That's why Tolkien says "he must not yet be raised to the stature of III". He is admonishing Zimmerman not to reveal the Witch-King's power this way, because it ruins the effect of his presence on the Pelennor, which is intended to provide him with added demonic force since the reader has not yet seen the Witch-King in this way. He is discussing a narrative design, not the history of LotR.

Originally Posted by Raynor

In this specific context of debate, the alternative interpretation is rather unlikely, for reasons given in this thread.

No, there are no reasons given in this thread that render the alternative interpretation "unlikely." What is unlikely is that Tolkien told this guy who he didn't like some valuable, secret, unprecedented information about Sauron juicing up the Witch-King instead of writing it in one of his canonical texts or in response to a reader who actually cared.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

how would he have known that Gandalf had been sent back

Or that Gandalf was peers with the Witch-King's master Sauron to begin with, yeah?

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Witch King is indeed powerful, & his increased power ensures a battle with a Balrog would be no walkover,

What increased power?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No, the Witch-King always had more power than the first two books suggest

As Tolkien states in that paragraph, the WK's peril is "almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear" he inspires. What other power do you have in mind, before the Pelennor Fields, when his spells crush the gate? Moreover, your own argument about the first two books not depicting WK's power gives more weight to the idea that the issue at the Siege of Gondor is not about showing WK's place in hierarchy, but showing his (inner) power.

but his mission was to hunt in secrecy

Then again, we know from the Hunt for the ring, UT, that Sauron conveyed to the WK that secrecy must be abandoned - that is, before Frodo set out on his quest.

He is admonishing Zimmerman not to reveal the Witch-King's power this way

Tolkien admonishes Zimmerman not for revealing WK's power, but for underestimating it at night.

No, there are no reasons given in this thread that render the alternative interpretation "unlikely."

Well, if you choose to ignore the prologue, Gandalf's and Bombadil's words depicting the WK to the reader as a leader of armies .... fine.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

I think the Appendix B in Return of the King makes clear that it is really the Witch King who does this (not the battering ram):

March 15: In the early hours the Witch-king breaks the Gates of the City.

Up until this point, we mainly see the Witch King (along with the other Nazgul) using fear as their principal weapons, as is stated in the Unfinished Tales

Moreover, their chief weapon was terror.

or commanding armies, as the Witch King did in the attacks on Eriador from Angmar.

Plus, Tolkien makes specific mention of the augmentation of the Witch King's power, I just cannot find the quote at the moment.

Now whether this all translates to the ability to defeat a Balrog, I don't know. The Witch King only does pretty much what Sauron tells him to, so it would have to be a face off in which the power of Sauron comes up against the Balrog...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Plus, Tolkien makes specific mention of the augmentation of the Witch King's power, I just cannot find the quote at the moment.

No he doesn't.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What other power do you have in mind, before the Pelennor Fields, when his spells crush the gate?

The same kind of generic "power" Tolkien always refers to. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is fear, but the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others. Do you suppose he caused all the commotion he did solely because others feared him? It's no coincidence that he is the only one of the Nine who waged open war with the Free Peoples. We don't have any explicit examples of the Witch-King breaking a gate (ooooh! Powerful!) during that time period, but that doesn't mean he only received the power to do so in vol. III. It also doesn't mean that Sauron can beef up his servants at will. If he can, we must also assume that Gandalf can, since they are identical in nature (incarnate Maiar), and it surely would have been in the interest of the mission for Frodo to have gotten some "added angelic force."

From Unfinished Tales:

In the event Gollum escaped. But the passage of the bridge was effected. The forces there used were probably much less than men in Gondor thought. In the panic of the first assault, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgûl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.

If the Witch-King here is allowed to reveal himself briefly, it is logical to assume that at all other times he is required to conceal himself. Not so, however, on the Pelennor. The command position given to him provides him with an added force that the reader had not yet witnessed.

Besides, even if Sauron could make the Witch-King more powerful (capable of breaking gates! ) he could not raise him to his own level which is, more or less, the level both Gandalf and the Balrog are on.

Additionally, the Witch-King is delusional. He imagines that "no man may hinder" him, perhaps because of Glorfindel's prophecy--perhaps not. He also probably doesn't know what Gandalf is. His encounter with Gandalf was accidental (he did not know that Gandalf would be blocking his way when he came through the gate), and it reveals nothing about the Witch-King's strength. It does show us Gandalf standing in defiance of an army, knowing exactly who is at its head, however. Yet somehow, the Witch-King's smack-talk (after which he flees) provides all the proof you people need that he was up to taking on a being like Gandalf.

Finally, the letter simply does not say that Sauron gave the Witch-King "added demonic force." What it does say is that Sauron gave the Witch-King command of his army, from which he receives "an added demonic force." This interpretation of the letter is based on what Tolkien might have meant by that and not what is actually written.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, the Witch-King is delusional. He imagines that "no man may hinder" him, perhaps because of Glorfindel's prophecy--perhaps not. He also probably doesn't know what Gandalf is. His encounter with Gandalf was accidental (he did not know that Gandalf would be blocking his way when he came through the gate), and it reveals nothing about the Witch-King's strength. It does show us Gandalf standing in defiance of an army, knowing exactly who is at its head, however. Yet somehow, the Witch-King's smack-talk (after which he flees) provides all the proof you people need that he was up to taking on a being like Gandalf.

I agree with the first statement. I believe he is delusional, and in fact this leads to his downfall, although it is not clear that he knew of Glorfindel's prophecy (how would he?)

He is familiar with Gandalf--he just faced him on Weathertop, where presumably the fireworks were chiefly from Gandalf...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I agree with the first statement. I believe he is delusional, and in fact this leads to his downfall, although it is not clear that he knew of Glorfindel's prophecy (how would he?)

He is familiar with Gandalf--he just faced him on Weathertop, where presumably the fireworks were chiefly from Gandalf...

He faced him, but Gandalf always restrained himself. The encounter on Weathertop did not reveal Gandalf's nature or true power by a long shot.

[Boromir88]

Sauron could 'pour' his power into things, he did so with the One Ring. However, Sauron was not like Morgoth who just 'squandered' his power into everything, to control/corrupt everything, and in doing so weakening himself. Sauron took his far lesser power than Morgoth had and put it into a Ring; actually causing himself to be 'enhanced'. So, as obloquy said before, Sauron just giving out power gains to people doesn't really follow the way Sauron did things.

Let's put this Letter 210 into a little context. It was written to Forest J. Ackerman, and is Tolkien's commentary on film treatment of his books (specifically towards Morton Zimmerman). To say that Tolkien didn't like Zimmerman is rather understating things. Tolkien completely rips into Zimmerman's script, and despised it so badly that he refused to comment on his script from ROTK saying:

Part III .... is totally unacceptable to me, as a whole and in detail. If it is meant as notes only for a section of something like the pictorial length of I and II, then in the filling out it must be brought into relation with the book, and its gross alterations of that corrected. If it is meant to represent only a kind of short finale, then all I can say is: The Lord of the Rings cannot be garbled like that.

And as said, Tolkien 'not liking' Zimmerman is an understatement:

"I should say Zimmerman...is quite incapable of excerpting or adapting the 'spoken words' of the book. He is hasty, insensitive, and impertinent."

This was Tolkien's comments after receiving the screenplay from Zimmerman and a few months later he would write to Ackerman Letter 210.

So, what is the point? As obloquy has argued this supposed power boost only appears in one place, and in a letter that Tolkien seemed to be very nit picky, even to the point of a rant in his strong 'disapproval' of Zimmerman's script. There is already one part in that letter where Tolkien contradicts something that he wrote in LOTR:

20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward...~The Bridge of Khazad-dum

What Tolkien consciously wrote in his letters, after writing LOTR, is interesting insight but has to be used a little cautiously. Especially if it's a Letter to someone he probably didn't like (as Ackerman got the project of trying to make LOTR into a movie going) and ranting about someone's screenplay he definitely didn't have any respect for.

Let's also look at other parts of the Letter:

9. Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider.

Than the quote continues with what's being debated...the whole 'added demonic force.' #9 is completely about the primary weapon of the Nazgul...their fear. There is no mentioning about the Witch-King's 'combat prowess,' or abilities as a sorcerer, it's Tolkien commenting that Aragorn would never have left Bree at night, because at night the Nazgul's 'fear' is greatly increased.

(Why can we use the whole part about the Nazgul's 'fear' in this Letter, while questioning the 'accuracy' of other parts of the Letter? Because, Tolkien commenting on their primary weapon - fear - does not contradict anything that he wrote in his story. We can see the Nazgul rely on fear and have a great advantage to those who 'fear' them, but to those who do not fear them, the Nazgul don't seem to be much of a threat).

Then again, we know from the Hunt for the ring, UT, that Sauron conveyed to the WK that secrecy must be abandoned - that is, before Frodo set out on his quest.~Raynor

Yet, he is still not in the role that he was at in Pelennor Fields. Sauron was hoping to keep the purpose of the Ringwraiths on the 'DL':

Thus Sauron tested the strength and preparedness of Denethor, and found them more than he had hoped. But that troubled him little, since he had used little force in the assault, and his chief purpose was that the coming forth of the Nazgul should appear only as part of his policy of war against Gondor.~Unfinished Tales; Hunt for the Ring

Because he wanted secrecy at this time...

The Lord of Morgul therefor led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible to eyes...~ibid

However, as you mention, Sauron eventually comes to want speed more than secrecy:

For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the forth going of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.~ibid

This however doesn't mean the Witch-King was willing and able to reveal his full power...this just means forget sneaking around secretly, Sauron wanted to find out where the Ring was and get it as soon as possible. As Radagast tells Gandalf about the Nine being around:

"I have an urgent errand," he said. "My news is evil." Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. "Nazgul," he whispereed. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."~The Council of Elrond

Which is where the Witch-King (and his cronies ) start running all over the place to find the Ring (to Saruman in Orthanc, to Grima in Rohan, to Sarn Ford, and eventually to The Shire). In the meantime of doing this the Witch-King wasn't like how Mr. Jackson portrayed that went rushing through slicing off everyone's head...nor was he commanding an army. He was looking for information, hence why he paid a visit to Saruman and Grima...and if people stood in his way that he had the capability of defeating (as the Dunedain had attempted) well then comes the head slicing.

This is what I meant by my comment about his 'rise in status.' Not that the Witch-King grew in Sauron's heirarchy (he was already at the top), but that his role is different. At the start, him and his merry gang, are searching for the Ring where he doesn't need to use (nor show his full power), but at Pelennor he is in the position where he has to show his full power.

Why would the Witch-King conceal his full power and not go around displaying his 'grandeur?' Why does Gandalf conceal his full power when he's with his friends? In Gandalf's case, he is restricted from revealing his full power to Men and Elves. With the Witch-King he is looking for information about the Ring, he doesn't want to go around shattering house doors, or slicing off the heads of possible informants:

In that hour the Wormtongue came near to death by terror; but being inured to treachery he would have told all that he knew under less thread.~Hunt for the Ring

At Pelennor Fields, the situation has changed, he no longer is out trying to gather information about the Ring, his job is to burn Minas Tirith to the ground for his Master. So he is in a position where he has to use his full ability. Grond wasn't breaking down the gate (it had been pounding for quite a while) so the Witch-King comes by to assist Grond in breaking down the gate. Once the gate is broken everyone flees before him, except for one - Gandalf - The Witch-King may not have known Gandalf's full abilities, but this isn't the first time they've met...Gandalf proved to be difficult against the Nine before, but also the very fact that he stands alone, ready to fight while everyone else fled must be a pretty big tip off to Gandalf's power. So, the Witch-King tries to play his biggest card...fear, he laughs, mocks, lights up his sword...but after all that 'Gandalf stood unmoving' and the Witch-King leaves.

Well, if you choose to ignore the prologue, Gandalf's and Bombadil's words depicting the WK to the reader as a leader of armies .... fine.~Raynor

Those are small glimpses, little snippets, of the Witch-King's command role. He is not in that position for a majority of the story, but he was in the glimpses we get of the past:

"For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear."~The Council of Elrond

Letter 210 is the only place where if the Witch-King received a 'power uppage' than that's where it is. So, Tolkien contradicted himself, as it wasn't Sauron's nature to start boosting up the power of his servants and spreading it everywhere. Also, taking into account who the letter was written to and the context; you may argue just how accurate is this?

Or, it's as obloquy has argued...the role of the Witch-King is entirely different in the first two books than it was in the third. In the first two books the Witch-King is concealing his power because he is out looking for information, and there rarely was a need, or a purpose, to start breaking down gates and displaying his full abilities. When there was a need (for example the Nazgul crossing over the Anduin, or defeating the Rangers at Sarn Ford) than he could briefly reveal himself. However, these instances still don't require the Witch-King unleashing his full force, just enough so he could get the job done (as his task was still to look for the Ring). Where Pelennor Fields is entirely different, and we see the Witch-King (in the context of the Lord of the Rings) in a role we haven't had before. In the command of Sauron's second largest army, who's goal is to destroy Minas Tirith. Opposing him are some pesky Gondorians, but also Gandalf who has given him problems before and is the only one who stands in his way at the Gate (a gate that was dang hard to break down ). A situation which calls for the Witch-King to unleash his full bag of tricks and abilities as a sorcerer. Before Pelennor Fields, we get little comments of the Witch-King's ability as a 'great sorcerer' and his role as a leader, but now the reader actually can 'see' his power; and not just from several vague comments made by Tolkien's characters.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

If he can, we must also assume that Gandalf can, since they are identical in nature (incarnate Maiar), and it surely would have been in the interest of the mission for Frodo to have gotten some "added angelic force."

Then again, we don't know how lawful such a transfer of power would be, especially in the context of the istari mission, nor is the relation between the nazgul & Sauron comparable to that between Gandalf and Frodo. Plus, Sauron learned a lot of sorcery from Morgoth, while the subject apparently presented little interest to Olorin.

If the Witch-King here is allowed to reveal himself briefly, it is logical to assume that at all other times he is required to conceal himself.

Then again, this happened in June, before secrecy was no longer required.

Finally, the letter simply does not say that Sauron gave the Witch-King "added demonic force." What it does say is that Sauron gave the Witch-King command of his army, from which he receives "an added demonic force."

You are twisting the phrase:

There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

Nowhere does it say that from the command of his army he receives an added demonic force. You are adding your own words.

Originally Posted by Boro

As Radagast tells Gandalf about the Nine being around:

That also happened before September, although your ordering of events might lead one to think otherwise.

However, these instances still don't require the Witch-King unleashing his full force, just enough so he could get the job done (as his task was still to look for the Ring).

I disagree. Getting the ring was far more important than anything else for Sauron, and the WK was dismayed at the threats he received from his master, together with the order to abandon secrecy.

Those are small glimpses, little snippets, of the Witch-King's command role.

Well, these "snippets" come from some of the most authoritative sources, including the author. In fact, he comes off more as a leader of armies in those "snippets" than here, where he is a singular figure, wielding his sword in flames. These are the image and actions of WK as a demonic power, never before seen by the reader at such a level.

[davem]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I think the Appendix B in Return of the King makes clear that it is really the Witch King who does this (not the battering ram):

No - its shorthand: the WK is in charge of Sauron's armies, hence he 'breaks the gate'.

The drums rolled louder. Fires leaped up. Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

[QUOTE]

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone. Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

The point I was making in my flip comment was that if the WK had the power to break the gates then why use Grond - why indeed spend so long forging it? Grond was designed for a single purpose - to batter down the gates of Minas Tirith. If the only example that's being offered for the WK being given 'extra' power is the breaking of the gate then its not a good one. The WK may utter words in an unknown tongue but he does it in conjunction with the use of a devastating (physical) weapon against a physical object. Of course, the implication is that he used spells to weaken the stone & metal of the gate & gateposts - & there's the 'lightning' too - but this is clearly not sufficient to break the gates without a battering ram.

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram. Of course, its his ram, so he broke the gates. To argue that because App B states he 'broke the gates' Grond played no part is like arguing that saying the WK 'stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' implies that the Morgul Blade was irrelevant. The WK broke the Gates with Grond & he stabbed Frodo with the Morgul Blade. He couldn't have performed either act without the object.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram.

I don't see why breaking the gates with the ram implies that the WK couldn't do it by himself. He may very well be capable, but it may weaken him too much to be worth it, in such circumstances. What Tolkien said about the use of magic vs. use of slave and technology I believe applies here as well:

Originally Posted by Letter #155

But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means.

Even if using the ram would be more costly in troops casualties, it would not be something that would concern the WK, if it can better further his plans.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see why breaking the gates with the ram implies that the WK couldn't do it by himself. He may very well be capable, but it may weaken him too much to be worth it, in such circumstances.

Maybe he could - & maybe he could have turned Frodo into a Wraith without the use of a Morgul Blade, & maybe you're correct that Rams & Blades are 'labour-saving devices', but all this is speculation. The fact is that the WK used Grond & spells to break the gates, & we don't know whether he could have broken them on his own. In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force' - all it proves is that he's able, with a combination of spells & a battering ram, to do a bit of breaking & entering.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force'

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle' (bit like Gandalf's addition of 'white horses' to the Bruinen flood). You'd have to be able to argue that the gates were so strong that Grond could never have brought them down on its own, & that the WK's own innate power could not achieve that even with the use of Grond before you could offer the destruction of the gates up as evidence of 'enhanced demonic force' in the sense of a power up from Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The 'gates' issue, to me, comes down to the simple question of whether Grond could have taken down the gates eventually, & I see no reason to believe it would not. The WK's contribution, as I read it, is to speed up the inevitable & add a bit of 'spectacle'

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I agree. By and large, I was trying to make the same point, that there was no extremely pressing need for the WK to use such magic power - unlike when trying to capture the ring, when that particular need was evidently present, but he didn't use such power. When comparing these two situations, the direct meaning of "added force" is the relevant one.

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate. His power & the question of whether or not it is enhanced at one point by Sauron doesn't seem to come into it. Frodo was never separated from the WK by city walls. If he had been behind such walls on Amon Hen, & if the WK had had a battering ram at his disposal, along with a massive army, I'm sure he would have taken the same approach to getting at him.

The question, to my mind, is if the WK had been in the same position (with armies & weapons) at the beginning of the hunt for the Ring as he was at the end would he have behaved differently - was he more powerful at the Siege than at Weathertop, or was he just restricted by the means he had at hand? I'd favour the latter.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see that the two situations are comparable - one is trying to get hold of the Ring from an individual bearer in the wilderness, the other is trying to get into a city by breaking its gate.

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations. Even if we presume that in both occasions the WK used the most of his power (although we agree that the Siege of Gondor was a far lesser reason to do so, than retrieving the ring), there is an obvious difference.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We perhaps should be very careful of interpreting the Nazgul as warriors- a mistake Peter Jackson made from the start, fitting them out with armor and happily lopping off hobbit-heads- culminating in the absurd swordfight on Weathertop (directly contrary to Tolkien's criticisms of the Z script).

Leaving out the W-K, who appears certainly to outclass the rest, the 8 Associate Nazgul are never once depicted as wielding physical weapons (Frodo's vision at the Ford, of course, is of the Riders as they are on the "other side.")* They operate by fear, or by breaking morale. (As an old grognard, or player of board war-games, I would have killed for some unit which automatically exacted a -5 morale penalty on all enemy units!!) Yet this itself is a weapon with physical consequences, as we learn that a good dose of Black Breath can indeed prove fatal- indeed, Grima "came near to death by terror." In The Hunt for the Ring, the BR "drove off" the Rangers at Sarn Ford (after dark fell). We do learn that some of these were indeed "slain:" but was this by physical weaponry, or Black Breath?


*It's a very common misconception, not restricted to PJ, that the Nazgul raided the Prancing Pony. They didn't. Read closely and you'll see that it was Bill Ferney and the Southerner, perhaps with Harry Goatleaf, acting on the BR's instructions).

[Boromir88]

What I believe the issue to be is that in both occasions - attacking the city and attempting to retrieve the ring from Frodo in various occasions - the WK did use magic, but at definitely different levels, levels which are at odds with what we know of his motivations.~Raynor

No, just that the situations were different. Getting the Ring was the most important goal, but let's not forget at Pelennor Fields, by this time Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron, causing Sauron to believe that Isildur's heir would use the Ring against him. This causes the hasty attack on Gondor, so the Siege of Minas Tirith is arguably just as important of a motive for the Witch-King as was trying to get the Ring.

As davem cogently explained the situations are quite different. On one side the Witch-King is trying to hunt down a hobbit that carries a Ring, but he is also looking for information. He doesn't want to frighten informants to death (or go busting down gates) and he isn't this agent of death as WCH explains. So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

When he faces Gandalf on Amon Sul, than we see some sparks flying around. I fail to see why we would assume the pretty lights were all Gandalf's...as the Witch-King was referred to as a 'great sorcerer' several times.

At Pelennor, the situation calls for him to display his full power (as what we could say happened when he first faced Gandalf on Weathertop). As he is not looking for information, or for a hobbit that carries a Ring, he's trying to:

1. Destroy Minas Tirith
2. Faces a much stronger opponent in Gandalf

Also, I don't think obloquy is twisting around anything, there is a difference between....

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Or let me try to put it this way...what is scarier? A dark figure, creepy looking Wraith who comes up and asks for directions or the same said wraith who is commanding an army of 45,000+ and is out to kill you?

I don't see how breaking down the gate and his tricks is a force that the Witch-King was incapable of displaying before Pelennor Fields. Because of the several instances where he is referred to as a 'great sorcerer,' also in his bout with Gandalf on Weathertop. The reason the Witch-King doesn't display this 'gate busting' power before is because there is no need for it, there is no reason to do so. He is trying to gather information on the Ring and ultimately end up bringing it back to Sauron, very different from trying to obliterate a city and beat an opponent far greater than him.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram. Of course, its his ram, so he broke the gates. To argue that because App B states he 'broke the gates' Grond played no part is like arguing that saying the WK 'stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' implies that the Morgul Blade was irrelevant. The WK broke the Gates with Grond & he stabbed Frodo with the Morgul Blade. He couldn't have performed either act without the object.

I didn't say the battering ram played no part. I simply said the Witch King was primarily responsible, although this is open to other interpretations like yours above.

However, note also that the Witch King's spell is more than just striking fear, or cheerleading, since it is said that

...speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

with the emphasis on "stone" added by myself. Given this extra information about the power here, I would say that your interpretation of the quote from Appendix B, while a viable one, is just one of those possible.

[davem]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I didn't say the battering ram played no part. I simply said the Witch King was primarily responsible,

And I say the battering ram was more than sufficient to do it - given a bit more time. And this is the point - this is speculation. It can't be used to support a claim that the WK was 'extra powerful' at that point - the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When he faces Gandalf on Amon Sul, than we see some sparks flying around. I fail to see why we would assume the pretty lights were all Gandalf's...as the Witch-King was referred to as a 'great sorcerer' several times.

Possibly, although this is pretty much Gandalf's signature, as we see in the fight with the wolves after retreating from Caradhras.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Or let me try to put it this way...what is scarier? A dark figure, creepy looking Wraith who comes up and asks for directions or the same said wraith who is commanding an army of 45,000+ and is out to kill you?

Well, I don't buy this. If it was simply a matter of commanding an army, I believe that Tolkien would have used different phrasing. In fact, he says

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor...He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, he had many weapons.

This says to me that he is commander of the army (no trivial thing, to be sure), but also in command of other powers beyond these.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

And I say the battering ram was more than sufficient to do it - given a bit more time. And this is the point - this is speculation. It can't be used to support a claim that the WK was 'extra powerful' at that point - the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

I agree that by itself, this is speculative. This is meaningful in conjunction with Tolkien's statement that the WK has added demonic power. This statement is also open for various possible interpretations.

However I don't see any evidence that

the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

How do you prove that this is the only conclusion?

[davem]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I agree that by itself, this is speculative. This is meaningful in conjunction with Tolkien's statement that the WK has added demonic power. This statement is also open for various possible interpretations.

How do you prove that this is the only conclusion?

'cos breaking some big gates is not actually a big deal in itself. The fact is that the WK used a battering ram & some spells to break the gates. The breaking of the gates is just a bad example if you're offering 'evidence' that the WK is more powerful at the Pelennor Fields than he was earlier. The gates are not magical as far as I know & don't need magic to bring them down - only force. What other evidence is there that the WK was more powerful during the battle - he seems the same person to me - given that the Barrow blade, 'wound about with spells' that was designed to bring him down still worked.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

'cos breaking some big gates is not actually a big deal in itself. The fact is that the WK used a battering ram & some spells to break the gates. The breaking of the gates is just a bad example if you're offering 'evidence' that the WK is more powerful at the Pelennor Fields than he was earlier. The gates are not magical as far as I know & don't need magic to bring them down - only force. What other evidence is there that the WK was more powerful during the battle - he seems the same person to me - given that the Barrow blade, 'wound about with spells' that was designed to bring him down still worked.

I would say it is largely because of the various evidence that the Nazgul DID NOT have added physical strength prior to this scene that the breaking of the Gates (at least partly carried out with the use of a spell) seems noteworthy to me. Otherwise, the original quote from Tolkien's Letters is:
(

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

with the emphasis here on the statement that "they have no great physical power against the fearless". This statement is made in conjunction with the Witch Kings powers in Book I and if there were no real enhancement to the WK's power, then it would seem to contradict the fact that we see the WK help to break the Gates of the City. Now you can argue that this is just Grond, but the quote above, in which it is explicitly stated that

...forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

seems to argue directly against this notion that it is only Grond.

[Boromir88]

I would say it is largely because of the various evidence that the Nazgul DID NOT have added physical strength prior to this scene that the breaking of the Gates (at least partly carried out with the use of a spell) seems noteworthy to me.~CSteefel

Prior to Pelennor Fields there was rarely a purpose for displaying such force by the Witch-King.

In the first two books the Witch-King is not out trying to destroy the Shire, or even kill anyone. So, why would he need such a power as breaking down gates and lighting up his sword? He had to conceal his power because he was looking for information, as busting through The Shire's hedge and literally scaring people to death (as what almost happened to Grima) would have been counter productive to his task.

This doesn't mean before Pelennor he was incapable of such a force, just that such a force was not needed because of his task of hunting down the Ring. And in his way stands 4 hobbits with a ranger, who's courage he greatly underestimated:

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo...
But above all the timid and terrified Beared had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted swords made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the barrow wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.~The Marquette Letter (Found in Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion)

Why don't we see some sparks with the Witch-King in his meeting with Frodo at Weathertop? Probably because he doesn't have a powerful Maiar lighting up the sky that is opposing him. He's got some hobbits (Merry and Pippin who had fallen down in fear and Sam who had shrunk and whined beside Frodo, Frodo himself who was terrified, and Aragorn who was at this time MIA). The Witch-King just didn't think that Frodo would overcome his fear and strike at him with an enchanted blade that was as crippling to him as the morgul blade was to Frodo...so the Witch-King, as I would have done had someone tried to strike me with a blade that would completely cripple me, high-tailed it out of there.

Now how is the Pelennor Witch-King different (as far as in terms of 'power') different from that of the Witch-King earlier? There isn't a difference...several times he was referred to as a 'sorcerer' before we see him at Pelennor:

"For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear."~The Council of Elrond

Those who used the nine rings became might in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.~The Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

King of Angmar long ago Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.~(Gandalf to Pippin) The Siege of Gondor

So, clearly the Witch-King must have done some sort of 'gate-busting' sorcery before Pelennor Fields, or he would not have been known to people as being a sorcerer.

We see his display of power in his attack against Gandalf on Weathertop. The Wraiths wait for night where their power would be greater, both Aragorn (when he arrives at Weathertop) and Gandalf say this was no walk in the park:

"But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such a light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old."
"At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more..."~The Council of Elrond

It is Gandalf who has to high-tail it out of there this time, he is the one that has to hold them off and he gets away. If someone has a gun are you going to go charging them with a knife? If Gandalf is lighting up the sky, the Witch-King (and the other ringwraiths) were 'sorcerers' because of the possession of their rings, and Gandalf even has to flee, put it all together.

Where does the Witch-King have 'great physical power' at Pelennor Fields? He still has the boldest of Gondor running in terror. In fact only the Knights of Dol Amroth and Gandalf were said to have withstood the Nazgul. When the Witch-King barges through the gate it is only Gandalf that blocks his way. And the Witch-King, seeing Gandalf was standing in his way completely unafraid, leaves that situation to go tend to another.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul. What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Then again, the main differences between these phrasings is not the presence or absence of "an" [I fail to see why each phrasing would exclusively warrant just that one interpretation you gave them] but the meaning of "demonic", which makes this exercise rather useless.

So, clearly the Witch-King must have done some sort of 'gate-busting' sorcery before Pelennor Fields, or he would not have been known to people as being a sorcerer.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

And the Witch-King, seeing Gandalf was standing in his way completely unafraid, leaves that situation to go tend to another.

It's not because he sees him unafraid that he leaves.

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Yes - & that's the point. Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary. Just because he hadn't whacked a Balrog up to that point doesn't prove he was suddenly gifted with extra power in Moria in order to do so. In the same way, just because the WK hadn't knocked over a big gate before doesn't prove he wasn't capable of doing it without a power up.

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand. What other evidence is there for enhanced power? One could argue that if he had the power to smash a gate he should have avoided getting into hand to hand combat with that blonde bird & just zapped her. He tends to enjoy the experience of terrorising his victims & is very much a hands on kind of guy.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced. And then, what his power really was. Gandalf is incidental, and only used to bolster the arguments pro and con, in the posts above.

As for the the WK versus the Balrog, I guess I am inclined to agree the Balrog would come out on top. The only possible caveat here is that the Witch King's power comes from Sauron, so we could not rule out completely an augmentation of the WK's power (something I believe that happened in the Pelennor Fields) to face a foe like the Balrog. But this is taking the speculation even farther... My point, however, is that the WK is not an independent power like the Balrog, but derives his power in large part from Sauron himself. This also implies that predicting his power from one case to the next might be difficult...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced.

I agree; the issue of the WK's power was a thorny one and it got this whole branch started.

Originally Posted by davem

Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions. As I mentioned:

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

[Boromir88]

It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf.~Raynor

But what this does show is that prior to the battle of Pelennor Fields the Witch-King was capable of using magic...so busting down a gate and lighting up a sword doesn't mean he suddenly had a boost of power. Why doesn't he use any of his sorcery when he encounters Frodo on Weathertop? I don't know, but he did us it when he encountered Gandalf on Weathertop. Or could it be that his task was different?

As I've said the Witch-King is hunting for the Ring, he's not out trying to kill anyone...not even the Ringbearer:

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under his command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring; if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'~Many Meetings

Sending a jolt of fire from his eyes to fry Frodo wouldn't have been torment enough for Frodo. Sauron wanted this Ringbearer to suffer not have a quick and easy death.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions.

But the quote above certainly makes it seem like Sauron limitted what the Witch-King was able to do. He wasn't trying to burn down the Shire or kill anyone who opposed him (he wasn't even supposed to kill the Ringbearer). He was to find out the location of the Ring and not only get the Ring, but also the Ringbearer, so the said Ringbearer could suffer.

At Pelennor Fields his is not limitted anymore. His objective isn't to bring people to Sauron to suffer...his objective is to completely trash Minas Tirith and kill all those who oppose him.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Aye, but Tolkien also refers to the Nazgul as sorcerers...and it is also the 'great wizard' Gandalf who calls the Witch-King a 'great sorcerer.'

[obloquy]

The phrase's meaning does not hinge upon the "an," though the "an" is there only because Tolkien meant the phrase in a certain way. The sentence structure provides a very clear picture of what Tolkien meant, but I won't try to explain it in detail. However, note that he is talking about the Witch-King receiving the "force" and the command from two separate givers, as indicated by his need to specify that the Witch-King received the command from Sauron specifically. Before and after that interjection, Sauron is not the one effecting changes in the Witch-King's stature, it is the storyteller doing so. The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Originally Posted by Raynor

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul.

Tolkien does not actually say this. He says this of the Nazgul, but the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others. You're right that the fear can't be concealed: so in the example of the Witch-King revealing himself that I provided below, what would you say he was previously concealing? Remember that this happened before Vol III and the Witch-King's alleged augmentation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot.

What magic might have helped him? A lightning sword?

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

That's every bit as impressive as breaking a gate, right?

Originally Posted by davem

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand.

I think Raynor must assume that the breaking of the gate is representative of other particular powers the Witch-King would have been stupid not to use in prior encounters. Like a magical lasso or something, I guess. davem is correct, though, and his posts have been good. As have Boromir88's: the Witch-King accomplished all manner of death and destruction (which no other Nazgul did) prior to his presence in LotR, and Tolkien's reference to an increase of stature in Vol III is relative only to the Witch-King's stature in Vol I and Vol II, not his pre-LotR stature.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Hmmm, why is giving somebody command of an army a "demonic force". If Tolkien had meant that, why not just say "Sauron gave the Witch King command of his armies". The adjective "demonic" doesn't make much sense when applied to an army of non-magical beings (Southrons, orcs and the like)...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

At Pelennor Fields his is not limitted anymore.

I know of no limitation of the mission of the WK. He was supposed to get the ring, that was his job. Irregardless of Gandalf's musings, the attack of the nazgul with the morgul blade had more to do with Frodo striking at him and crying the name of Varda than with a supposed addendum to his mission.

Aye, but Tolkien also refers to the Nazgul as sorcerers...and it is also the 'great wizard' Gandalf who calls the Witch-King a 'great sorcerer.'

I believe I have conveyed my point; I know of no minimum requirement of magic display in order to qualify as a sorcerer. Thus, implying that the WK must have displayed such powers before because he was called a sorcerer is uncalled for.

Originally Posted by obloquy

However, note that he is talking about the Witch-King receiving the "force" and the command from two separate givers, as indicated by his need to specify that the Witch-King received the command from Sauron specifically.

I believe that's a false dichotomy. I see no reason why the phrase can't mean he received the force from Sauron too. While I agree that the phrase can be viewed from your point also, it is definitely not the only one, especially considering the larger context.

That's every bit as impressive as breaking a gate, right?

Nope; not even a fraction of its efficacy and power. It is one of the occasions I repeatedly referred to when the WK uses his power at far lesser levels than the situation requires and his supposed power permits. Also, the timing of it, the fact that the WK bids his time for 14 days and uses it in his 25th hour, when Frodo is already on enemy land, beyond the waters he rightly fears, shows that this is more for show and spite than for practical uses.

the Witch-King accomplished all manner of death and destruction (which no other Nazgul did)

What different manners of death and destruction do you have in mind? And how do you know the other nazgul didn't do them?

So what if the Witch King broke a gate? Gandalf broke the Balrog's sword into a million pieces. No doubt this sword was blessed with many special spells too.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

That depends *entirely* on whether the Witch-king is confronting a winged or a wingless Balrog.