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04-12-2007, 10:33 AM | #41 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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My sincerest apologies, Lal -- that was inadvertenly copied from the original post. The incident to which it refers was already dealt with over in the "Rooting For The Wrong Side" thread.
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04-12-2007, 10:36 AM | #42 | |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
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Ah, maybe that's it - he desired a creative outlet but Eru failed to give him even enough skill to draw stick figures or write nonsensical haikus? |
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04-12-2007, 10:38 AM | #43 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Sauron:
And the most probable (and coherent?) reply will be that all that you've stated is one point of view, from the Elves and their lackeys, and we never get to read Melkor's side, as, well, he lost, and to the victors go the publishing rights...
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04-12-2007, 10:43 AM | #44 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Anyway, Melkor. Of course he's the bad guy in the story, that's how he's set up - it doesn't stop anyone from reversing that if they like though. That's just another way of reading it. Course, some people do it just to wind Tolkien fans up, including other Tolkien fans, as we can be a bunch of sensitive little flowers at times My particular 'blue touchpaper' is when people start on about Hobbits being 'cr*p' etc.and how Saruman should've killed them all. Set me off on that one and I'll be all touchy! There isn't necessarily anything wrong in someone liking Melkor though - after all we don't know why they do, and what they're really like. That shouldn't form our judge of character - and if it did I'd be a poor judge because I've met enough Elf fans who were complete %^&*(s.... But he has to be there, as has been said, or there'd be no story anyway.
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04-12-2007, 11:32 AM | #45 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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What we have here..is failure to communicate...
...and as I was once told, "if the learner hasn't learned, then the the teacher hasn't taught."
I am by no means impugning the right and privilege of any person to read JRRT as he/she/it sees fit. (Though I also defend the right of those who disagree, especially myself , to do so.) In Neithan Tol Turambar's case, I am merely pointing out that Neithan has established two, mutually contradictory points of view -- One, that Tolkien's work is inviolable, and Two, that Melkor is something or someone that Tolkien says he most definitely was not.
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius |
04-12-2007, 01:04 PM | #46 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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I think Neithan in this thread was, as we say in Bonnie Scotland, extracting the urine with this thread. (something I have been guilty of in the past but this became boring)
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04-12-2007, 01:28 PM | #47 | |
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After noticing Neithan hasn't posted, Gandalf says to Sam:
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04-12-2007, 01:32 PM | #48 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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To be fair, he earlier said he was off to work, and he has to sleep sometime, herald-of-Sauron or not.
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04-12-2007, 01:44 PM | #49 |
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Gandalf never lies...I hope.
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04-12-2007, 02:02 PM | #50 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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The verve...I mean the nerve of some.
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04-12-2007, 07:31 PM | #51 | |
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...but to Urin[hurin] he gave a measure of vision, so that much of those things that befell his wife and [daughter] he might see and be helpless to aid, for magic held him in that high place. "Behold!" said Melko, "the life of [your daughter] shall be accounted a matter for tears wherever elves and men are gathered for the telling of tales."; but Hurin said: "at least none shall pity [her] for this, that [she] had a craven for father." |
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04-12-2007, 07:36 PM | #52 | |
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04-12-2007, 07:42 PM | #53 | |
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04-12-2007, 08:11 PM | #54 | |
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Exactly
[QUOTE=Thenamir]Alright, Neithan Tol Turambar, I'm calling you out. Your verbose and insufferable tirades, your name-calling, and your general attitude (not to mention your deluded self-proclamation as Lord Sauron's "herald and messenger") have earned you the negative rep you so richly deserve. Prepare to defend yourself.
In your introductory post on the "Introduce yourself here" thread, you posted the following: Now aside from the fact that you revere the Learned Professor's work so much that you can't even spell his name correctly, your entire premise in beginning and carrying on this thread is entirely antithetical to every spoken and written opinion of Tolkien himself. I defy you to produce one iota, a single scintilla of evidence to show that Tolkien himself, whom you claim to revere and defend, intended that Melkor (or Sauron) was the master, savior, and liberator which you claim. Otherwise you are attempting to alter and revise that work of which you say I agree with that sentiment, and I here and now accuse you of that vile and atrocious arrogance and call you to defend your position against the following quotes from LOTR and the Silmarillion (words of Tolkien himself! ), reproduced from an earlier discussion on a similar topic. ----- Morgoth: Quote:
You have agreed with me in a circular way at every point, but cannot make the proper conclusion at the end of your reasoning. Let me say this: I agree with you. What incredible examples of the worlds finest writer. I thank you. For Tolkien was, I firmly believe the finest writer of all time and his passages arouse in me the most brilliant and compelling visions I have ever experienced. He can conjure up images of power so strong I feel them and see them he moves me!!!! Your right. Tolkien did write those passages. He also wrote the narrative of Morgoth's perspective, an inseperable part of the whole. Melkor has glory within the revelation as an inextricably intertwined part of the story without which[EVIL] their can be no good. Think Man! By God you are at the very door!! IN THE ABSENCE OF DARKNESS LIGHT HAS NO GLORY. EVIL REFLECTS THE GLORY OF GOD. I laboriously type again.... "Then Illuvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Illuvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, "Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' Now you think about that. And if you still don't know what I am doing here, then I declare outside of all eccentricity and sarcasim and from the depths of my true heart say to you sir you have no understanding. Please do not react, THINK. |
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04-12-2007, 08:23 PM | #55 |
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on to bigger and better things
You people can thank the moderators for heavily censoring my posts, in which, while in the spirit, made a stunning and careless error, that you could have taken advantage of. WHAT A DRAG! IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT ILLISTRATION OF THE WISDOM OF GANDALF. I worried all day when in the midst of lifting over 3000 pounds in twenty minutes...."The magnitude of my folly was revealed to me in a blinding flash...." Wonder what it was? TOO BAD!!! I 'M NOT TELLING!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA OOOHHHH------(cough cough..uhckk ttwwoooo cough cough) AHHH HA HA HA HA unghckk cough cough cough) I have a new thread that I think is just going to blow people away, sorry, I really do! I'm going to write it soon, and it will be serious, and pure, and empirical, and GOOD. I, We, promises to be very, very good. nice moderator! wretched we are wretched! Neithan promises! He will be very very good! Nice Moderator! Don't censor us! don't censor us! achsss sss gollum! |
04-12-2007, 10:43 PM | #56 | ||||
Spectre of Capitalism
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Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point and attempt to see through the blinders you seem to think we're all wearing.
It is oft said that disasters bring out the best in people, or that without the contrast of the hard times we would never properly appreciate the good times, or that "every dark cloud has a silver lining". In this sense I can understand that, as Tolkien himself said, there would never have been certain beauties (as of snow) unless Melkor had brought the icy cold. However, it is on one side of the line that one can assert that Eru can make make even the selfish evil of Morgoth work to his purposes, but let us not take the step over the line to assert that Melkor himself is good, or that evil in and of itself is good, thus confusing the two and removing all meaning from the words. The destruction and death that resulted from World War II can make us grateful for the life we have and the peace we enjoy, but let us not call Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito great men of history because of that reminder -- the price paid was far too high. If good can be brought out as a result of evil, that does not justify the evil. The fact that Eru foresaw and incorporated all of the things that I quoted in my prior post, and eventually caused a the strength of evil to be overcome by the weakness of good, that is a testament not to the glory of Melkor for being a "free thinker", but to Eru, for taking Morgoth's free but twisted will and still making something good from it. Eru is therefore not a tyrant, as you claimed, but the true benevolent creator and savior of all. You have said that the Valar are only puppets, aping what Eru "progammed" into them. Where Tolkien said that Iluvatar gave only a theme, a "subject" or "Guideline" from which they could use their individual gifts and talents to create the Music themselves: Quote:
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Of Sauron you say "they lie who say that He is a Tyrant wreathed in shadow." I do believe it was our beloved professor T. who wrote that of Sauron -- and I thought you despised those who altered his works and his vision. You have said that Morgoth "hath made valleys, and Eru's slaves filled them; Melkor hath made mountains, and Eru hath cast them down", which is the very opposite of Tolkien's writing on that topic: Quote:
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I have not yet made up my mind whether you have some method to your madness, or if you're just one of those folks who wander in to a forum or chat spoiling for a fight, pushing everyone's hot buttons, and watching their predictable knee-jerk reactions. Or perhaps you just quaff too many pints, or there's something "special" in those ciggies you smoke, or perhaps that fried chicken is just a wee bit past its freshness date. Nevertheless, I perceive that there is some valuable intelligence behind this belligerent facade, and I hope that it can spill forth here with less rancor and more gentleness, less veiled vagueries and more directness. I'm off to bed. I bid you and all my readers a good night.
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04-12-2007, 10:54 PM | #57 |
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But seriously folks . . .
I rush forward in blitzkrieg attack and, being engrossed in my task, make no considerations of empathy.
Therefore I was shocked to see that The Might and Hookbill the Goomba (sp) were 18 and 20, respectively. I was strangely and profoundly moved. While I take back nothing, not a word, I want to say that you guys should not let a word I say bring you down. I am how shall I put it? very impressed with your insight, thoughtfulness and level of maturity. The what I've been told is dog latin inscription ( can I say that? Should I look it up? I keep a dictionary right here) as my secondary signiture is latin, a living langauge, which means, "Don't let the bastards grind you down". Now you men think carefully about all that I have said, and look in the books, and Idaresay, seek for themes within our own history that fit within analogous perception, but only and I say only! ONLY! after you aquire knowledge. And not the disgusting Melkorian knowledge you find on discovery, but true knowledge that you can only get by special order catalogues and sometimes once in a while from a inter library loan. And use a dictionary. Never read passed a word you do not know. If you do you are a fool and unworthy. Look it up. LOOK IT UP AGAIN. look it up and write the definition down. Look it up five times if the word doesn't sound like the meaning, as is often the case, and so, hard to memorize. You both have the talentgift of writing and insight. Make sure you get to be experts with the thesaurus. With a thesaurus you conquer, without you fail. The best in the world know this but they will never tell you. And Hookbill, I know why you call yourself that. My oldest best closest friend, my brother, who is dead because of my carelessness, had a really big nose too. Most girls didn't like him, and they mostly didn't like anyone at all, but by God, and you'll see, some girls do. |
04-12-2007, 11:19 PM | #58 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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By the heavens, Neithan, the regulars and bystanders who post on this site are some of the finest, most knowledgeable Tolkien fans on the Net, and for you to come in here as a rank (in every sense of the word) newcomer and talk down to us as you have been doing is intolerable. If you have something to say, say it and let's discuss it, but don't pretend to have some "secret insights" and patronize our supposed ignorance by hints and vagueness.
You're going to have to prove your bona fides here with much more than bluster before you can get away with that. And by the way, your sig should read Illegitimi non carborundum. For one who claims that Latin is a living language, you sure don't treat it like one.
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04-12-2007, 11:45 PM | #59 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Dude, give it up. Tolkien himself said Morgoth was an evil, selfish thing and that Sauron was just a lesser creature than that.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 04-12-2007 at 11:51 PM. |
04-12-2007, 11:54 PM | #60 | |
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Good night sweet prince, you precious thing!
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Responses like that make it all worth it. By Jove man don't you think I know how crazy these Tolkien fans are? For days I have lived in fear thinking that a truckload of them might suddenly appear, tires squeeling in some alley behind the market on my way home . . ."We got you now, don't we!" But really- do you think I am just fumbling around here with no strategy? Can I use conventional methods to convey inconventional ideas? Can I go deeper into the depths without sacrificing myself, for no man can hold his breath that long, and surely I must fail, not at reaching the depths, but only by knowing that I have not enough to get back to the surface. I disagree with you at two points: [and since my computer skills are nil I can't remeber what you said and I'm afraid to lose my text so far... "Eru foresaw and incorporated . . . .and eventually . . . No. Do Not make excuses for Eru based on secret imagined faults which are not really his, but your own unvoiced or unrecognized limitations. Eru was not inept and yet fortunately was able to some how in the end eventually make everything all right and use Melkors evil to defeat him. You still cannot fully accept the fact, as revealed, that the whole scope of the music was with Eru from the beginning and even the end, though we are at it's beginning, is within Eru AT PRESENT. According to your reasoning their is an unknown varible in the equation. Melkor, though not as great as Eru, and Eru, not entirely omnipotent, and the conflict between, whereby Eru proves by the end that he is master. Wrong wrong wrong. Eru does not struggle to prove that he is master somehow by the end, but declares and reveals openly that he is the ultimate souce of all in the beginning. Eru Takes responsibility for evil, that is his greatness, do not rob him of it because you canot accept this or that faced with his glory, you connot fathom, so you humanize him by giving him a slight dose of human frailty, to make him understandable. The fault is not in him, but in you. Accept this. Want to get serious? The Hebrew God does not take responsibility for creating evil. He demands that you must take responsibility for evil, or, as seems to be the case, that his Own Son must be tortured and murdered at his own people's request. By God man that doesn't make me feel saved. It makes me feel wretched. Tolkien's mythology makes me feel saved. Am I mad? If Tolkiens mythology is not real then neither is Christ or Moses or any of that. You cannot have your Tolkien and eat it too. And Tolkiens work is far more moral and complete and plausible and holy than anything found in what is called the Bible. Do not tell me that Arda is not real or never was. I can't prove it. But I have faith. I want to continue this. I'll met you again later. Sleep tight preciousss! |
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04-12-2007, 11:54 PM | #61 | |
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04-13-2007, 12:00 AM | #62 |
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What's the matter tenimer? can't sleep wondering what I'll say next?
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04-13-2007, 12:42 AM | #63 | |
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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04-13-2007, 01:13 AM | #64 | |
Alive without breath
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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04-13-2007, 02:09 AM | #65 | |||||
A Mere Boggart
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Bold two - Men - made in response to Melkor? If so, that's quite fabulous, as Men were created to respond to and to resist Melkor's themes. Anyway, to draw out some sense, I've argued before that using the text strictly, Darkness (note, not 'evil', but 'Darkness') must stem from Eru ultimately. From the start he is called the All Father and he is Omnipotent, and the very nature of that means that he creates everything, or causes every possibility. Eru creates the Ainur from his own thought: Quote:
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A lot of readers might not like that as they have the notion that Eru was all 'goodness' in our terms, yet this is at odds with an Omnipotent Eru who states he is the source of everything. This might make some uncomfortable as they believe their God is all 'good' - and I admit I too would be uncomfortable with this perception of God as someone who can cause things I see as quite dark. To me, there is no point in having a God if he is not all sweetness and light in contrast to the evil that people inflict on one another - why believe in a deity that can hurt you for no fathomable reason? But this is Eru, and we cannot possibly hope to know Tolkien's own relationship with God and if he saw God as the source of all in the Real World, including Darkness, but if Eru is his representation of his own God then he may well have done. It's a common enough belief, especially in Catholicism, that everything stems from God, even the 'bad' things ('bad' because we see them as bad, but does God? Does he abhor war? Does he control tornadoes? Or is this all in his plan?) - it's simply his mysterious way; just take a look at The Book of Job to see an unfathomable God exercising his Omnipotence. By the by, this is assuming Eru is a representation of what Tolkien saw in God - it may well not be at all! But we will never know. All we have to work on is what Eru is like in the text and in the Sil he creates All, including the potential for Darkness, and just as say Yavanna makes strawberries with her potential, Melkor makes cold temperatures with his. Eru gives them that potential and asks them to sing for him, and not all sing what he wanted them to sing because he also gives them the freedom to do as they will with the potential he has bestowed on them from his own thought. Yet at the end of it all, even though Melkor does choose to use his potential in that way - it only serves to further glorify Eru, thus proving that in Arda, Eru has the Last Laugh. And that's way, way more than I wanted to write...
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Gordon's alive!
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04-13-2007, 02:18 AM | #66 |
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By the by, when I first saw your name I looked it up on Wikipedia since it sounded strange, and yet familiar.
"Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts)"...I seem to feel the same Can duplicate accounts actually be started without anyone noticing here, because, if yes, there is a more likely possibility...
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04-13-2007, 03:05 AM | #67 | ||||||
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04-13-2007, 04:00 AM | #68 | ||
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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04-13-2007, 07:08 AM | #69 | ||
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 04-13-2007 at 07:14 AM. |
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04-13-2007, 07:20 AM | #70 | |
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04-13-2007, 07:42 AM | #71 | ||
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04-13-2007, 07:47 AM | #72 | |
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04-13-2007, 07:52 AM | #73 |
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Memory's a bit foggy this morning--not had the requisite jolt of java yet--but wasn't there that Void wherein lay Ungoliant, even before Melkor?
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04-13-2007, 08:04 AM | #74 | |||||
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04-13-2007, 08:24 AM | #75 | |
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Good
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This I wanted to make clear in order for what I want to say now to be understandable. So: there is nothing such as "the good" or "the evil" (using the articles to make it understandable that I am speaking of nouns, of some principles), and when in the following text I am using the terms "good" or "evil" as stand-alones, it means "sum of all good things" and "sum of all bad things". So, let's move on with the example used. I can have a good meal, and now the question is, can I say I had a good meal without knowing what a bad meal is? Davem presented here the point that I cannot. Let's now make clear if we are talking about words or real things now. If "good" for me defines merely the opposite of "evil" (rather "bad" in the case of a meal), then davem's right. However, if I take "good" not as a word, but as a state (i.e. "good=something healthy, useful etc. for me"), then I would say it can exist without opposite. I can eat only good food for all my life, realize it tastes well (I don't have to have anything to compare with it - anything "better" or "worse" - it is just good, it is good for my taste buds), is healthy for me, helps my growth, provides vitamines or whatever... and I don't necessarily need to compare it. So, if you want to say that "good" is better than "evil" (or that it is "the best alternative"), you have to have evil (or at least something worse than that good thing) to compare with it. But the sole existence of good things, even their attributes of being good (not in the meaning as "better" but in the meaning as "good"=healthy and so on, as shown in the example above) does not necessarily need the existence of evil or bad things as well. Now to the possibility of choices. There might be an opinion, and with very good reason, that when I have only the "good" things, I don't have any choice. Well, that's not the whole truth. If I return to my example with food, then I can eat healthy food all my life (it's an example, so we are not assuming any negative parts in any of the food, so let's assume we have some really "ideal food" - old Plato would've been pleased) and still I can choose whether to eat X or Y for breakfast. It's both good, but I have the choice. So, the Ainur could have been good - for example in the sense that they were good for the world. You could choose whether here would be a nice sea or here would be a beautiful forest, and nothing of that was bad in any sense of the word. This is a model situation, mind you, but I think it shows what I had in mind.
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04-13-2007, 08:56 AM | #76 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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And thanks to other posters for more good thoughts.
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04-13-2007, 11:23 AM | #77 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Legate I still can't see how you could classify the meal as 'good' if you had nothing with which to compare it. If you only ever had 'good' meals you would not think of the meal as good - you would simply think of it as a meal. 'good' implies the existence of 'bad'. If only 'good' existed you wouldn't need the word 'good'. But this is not merely a linguistic debate. What of morality? Specifically how can anyone develop the capacity to make moral judgements if they are never faced with a choice between good & evil, right & wrong?
Of course, some people will think that in an 'ideal' world 'evil' would not exist - indeed their 'ideal' world would not even contain manifestations of 'evil (guns, violent pornography, violent movies/games - even 'bad' language would be banned). Of course, this would not produce a 'morally good' world - it would produce a world where no-one had the opportunity (or the need) to make moral choices. It would be at best an amoral world. One could argue that a truly morally good world would be one in which guns, violent pornography & the like was freely available, but everyone had made a free choice not to have anything to do with it. Hence the necessity for evil to exist - if the human race is to become fully adult. One has to have the freedom to choose evil if ones choice of the good is to count for anything. If you only have various 'goods' to choose from then choosing the good is valueless - because you can't choose anything else. Of course 'good' can exist without evil - but good cannot be freely chosen, in full knowledge, without evil existing as a possibility. Remove evil & you remove freedom to choose good. Which is why Morgoth's rebellion is necessary, why he could be said to be the 'liberator' of the Children - his rebellion not only enables, but actually forces them to choose between good & evil & to make a stand. He makes the choice of good matter, by making it a costly choice. If the only choice the Children faced was between various 'good's then what would choosing the good actually count for? Of course, Morgoth's intention was to enslave the Children, but (as Eru stated would be the case) his actions actually serve to liberate them by forcing them to grow up & choose the good over its opposite. |
04-13-2007, 11:50 AM | #78 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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And going into what davem is saying, an example of why imperfection must exist alongside perfection can be found in the Cybermen! They of course want to 'upgrade' humanity and take away all the imperfections, make everyone utterly equal - in one of the episodes of Doctor Who (The Age of Steel??? Hookbill will know!) the Cybermen tell the humans how great this upgrade will be, how it will bring an end to strife and bring them peace because everyone will be perfect. But the thought of everyone being 'perfect' is horrific - humans will have their freedom of choice taken from them and will have No Option but to be perfect. Without choices we become machines, Cybermen. We may then have an easy life, with no challenges to face, but without challenges how could we learn and grow? I really, really like what Tolkien says about Darkness and Light, as it's quite comforting to think that even though there is Darkness, it only serves to make that Light so much brighter. You could draw all kinds of metaphors - from the sublime: seeing stars on a black night, the rising of the sun in the morning, the waxing of the moon, the bright light people see after death, to the ordinary: improving after an illness, fighting off an enemy, finding a tenner when you're skint, finishing work and getting out into the fresh air at long last, etc, all of them depend on both Darkness and Light to make them much sharper and more valuable. If life was all Roses they might not smell quite so sweet.
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04-13-2007, 12:57 PM | #79 | |
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04-13-2007, 01:15 PM | #80 | |
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turn of the tide
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