Tolkien- For the Love of Eowyn!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

there would surely have been someone (a descendant of one of Theoden's four sisters) to take over the reins of government. There had never been a ruling queen in Gondor anyway so why would she expect to take the throne?

[Théoden: ]"Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?"
"In the House of Eorl," answered Háma.
"But Éomer I cannot spare; nor would he stay," said the king; "and he is the last of that House."
"I said not Éomer," answered Háma. "And he is not the last. There is Éowyn, daughter of Éomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone."

Japan might have its first empress, just because the people wants it so. These people want Éowyn. Who could tell her not to take the throne?

[Olorin_TLA]

Plus Númenor had its share of Ruling Queens so the Gondor point is kind of moot.

[Lalaith]

Whoops. I meant Rohan had never had a queen. But I take your points, Nilpaurion and Olorin.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Is her responsibility to the House of Eorl and the people of Rohan more important than her survival as a person?

I suppose I'm a little late on answering your question, symestreem, but it looks like others have carried on nicely!
Legolas writes:

Additionally, her responsibility as a citizen of Rohan is not only to the people of Rohan, but to her king. Whether it turned out for better or worse, she disobeyed him.

As did Merry; it seems the "right thing to do" is not the one that is meant to be. The wise action is not the one that expresses the personal love of Eowyn and Merry towards Theoden. This is one of the beautiful contradictions or ambiguities that gives Tolkien's works that magical quality, a feeling of mythical resonance rather than a straightforward war story. Eowyn and Merry disobeyed their King, but it turned out for the best. We don't see the consequences of their disobedience within the governmental structure of Rohan--as their deeds outweighed their transgressions. This is also true of the more sticky situation of Beregond, who left his post, killed a guard and, for his actions was 'exiled' to Ithilien to serve the one for whom he had undergone the test of moral responsibility. I think that the House of Eorl was a more nebulous and distant charge than the present King Theoden, for whom Eowyn and Merry would lay down their lives.

Perhaps it is the curved and hidden path, the path of the heart, rather than the straight one--the path of the mind, that leads to a greater enlightenment and greater good...I think this question of responsibility transcends the boundary of gender, as I see it reflected in other characters than Eowyn, in the same measure, i.e., Sam's giving up of the straight path into Mordor to rescue Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, at the risk of the capture of the One Ring, the most dire of possible consequences. Perhaps the "for the love of..." part of Lady of Light's thread subject is the driving force in my consideration here, rather than being compartmentalized by the gender consideration when applied to Eowyn, it is much larger and applicable to many characters.

Eowyn disobeyed, but she was destined to, because she had a good heart, focused on the love of her uncle Theoden (not merely to die pursuing the path of the chimera of Aragorn in her mind). Merry disobeyed, for the love of Theoden; Sam 'disobeyed' for the love of Frodo; Pippin and Beregond disobeyed for the love of Faramir. I see a very hobbitish trend here!

I think this post has rambled a bit, and I hope it has stayed coherent enough to make sense on this thread! Thanks for your indulgence!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Mithalwen]

Surely, the suggestion that Eowyn deserted her duty should be taken in the context of the apocalyptic nature of the war ....... Eowyn is perhaps the most realistic - or pessimistic about the outcome of the war ..... if she had any real hope that there would be a need for a ruler after the war maybe she would not have gone - but she is "waiting for the stroke of doom" .... anyway I think Eowyn is one of the most interesting and complex characters in the whole cannon ...and I really never quite understood Aragorn prefering Arwen...... who seemed relatively dull.....

[Son of Númenor]

...Arwen... seemed relatively dull.....

....in all of the three or four lines given to her.

[Lalaith]

I think that to Aragorn, Eowyn would seem very young, almost a child.

[Mithalwen]

well there is certainly less of an age gap than with Arwen ...clearly he goes for the older woman... butif I remember HoME .... Tolkien was more concerned teh other way... that he would be too old and grim for her.... and certainly in the book Aragorn is not as attractive at first sight as Viggo Mortensen......

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

there is certainly less of an age gap than with Arwen

Only if you consider 2690 years to be a smaller gap than 64 years. He really did have a thing for older women.

[Lalaith]

Ah, but it's not just about years but experience. Aragorn had lived a very long time by the reckoning of lesser men and had a hard, tough, action-packed life, roaming Middle-Earth, even going as far as Harad "where the stars are strange".
I doubt Eowyn had ever left Rohan.

[Lathriel]

I agree, Aragorn would be too grim for Eowyn because she has already been sad for most of her life and she would need a man who could cheer her up.

However when I first read the book I felt sorry for Eowyn that Aragorn didn't choose her, but then I was only about ten or eleven at that time.

[Mithalwen]

Yes I thought that - until I realised how wonderful Faramir was a bit later ... Aragorn can be a bit pompous at times in the book ... and I have been trying and failing to find a real life Faramir ever since.... ....

[Lathriel]

I wouldn't mind to be Eowyn because although she goes through a lot of pain in the end she gets a wonderful life with Faramir.

[Cibbwin]

I've had quite a few of my more intelligent friends (Yes, teenagers can be intelligent) ask me if I think Tolkien was sexist. And my answer is usually two words: Luthien Tinuviel. She's a woman who saves the DUDE from the dark tower. She's the one who goes into the "underworld" and saves the DUDE again. That's almost unheard of in fairy tales.

I agree, that this empowerment given women nowadays can be sexist. The reason being that the tough chick is always this sex kitten. And the lead dude always bangs her in the end. So the woman is STILL degraded to a sex object. And she STILL gets saved by the dude. I saw Van Helsing hoping that Kate Beckinsale's character would kick butt and hold onto her dignity, but she uses her sabre once, and that is to cut rope.

In Eowyn, I see a wonderfully complex person. She's strong, and she's fearless, but she's also confused and feels really inferior. She makes some brash decisions that end up saving the day, and instead of getting her dream guy, she gets a guy who will be HEALTHY for her.

That's my favourite thing about Tolkien's writing. Everything feels... healthy. The pain makes you stronger. The laughter makes you sweeter. The sorrow makes you wiser. And the women rock my socks. I'm waiting for my Luthien to save me!

[Mirkgirl]

But of course The Prof was sexist! Even his fox was a he for Eru's sake! :P

On a tad more seious note, I have to agree with most which was said - especially how annoying the "compulsory" female characters in most modern books/movies are.

I believe it's obvious that Tolkien wasn't sexist. For his time he was actually amazingly nonsexist. However for him the woman is different from the man. I don't want to be a judge whether he was right or not. I'm more inclined to no, but that's beyond the point.

Tolkien's woman can do what a man can, but doesn't feel satisfied with it. It's not her role and she cannot feel good in it, even if she can do good job of it. A brilliant example about this is Eowyn - she can do a pretty decent warrior, better than the avarage even maybe, but still she only takes this path out of desparation, her wish is not glory or win, she longs for death. And by the lack of feminine example, probably, as Finwe (post #19) already noted. But she finds real happines, her place, only as Faramir's wife who "will be a healer and love all things that grow and are not barren." This is the typical powerful woman in JRR's works. The protector. The healer. The silent power that keeps the things from falling appart. What would happen with the elves left in ME if it wasn't for Melian? What'd happen to the elves of Lorien if Galadriel wasn't there (in a way I like to think of Galadriel as Melian's heir actually)? What'd happen if it wasn't for Unien to hold Osse's horses?

Actually when I'm saying that Tolkien was maybe even too nonsexist for his time, I don't think of Eowyn. I don't even think of Luthien. I think of Haleth. Haleth is a woman who is a chief, in war and in peace. Haleth does a lot more than most men and gets credit for it. Tolkien does not condemn her choice to become a man, but also shows her "punishment" never to have her own heir and to pass the power to her brother's son. Knowing how much he loves children and how important bloodline is in his works, it's clear what he thinks of this choice.

[Lalaith]

Eowyn is deeply unhappy when we first meet her, not because she's in denial about her proper feminine role, but for the much more immediate and concrete reason that her nation and her family are about to be wiped out by seemingly all-powerful forces of evil, and her uncle is refusing to do anything about it. I think that one of the main reasons she falls for Aragorn is that he arrives like a breath of proactive air - at last, someone who is actually going to *do* something about this awful situation!
Subsequently, the forces of evil are defeated and hope is reborn. There is no longer any need for anyone, male or female, to fight to the death in desperation.

She is not the only character who is taking on the role of post-war healer and nurturer. Many of the male characters we encounter in the book - Aragorn, Faramir, the hobbits - will be taking on similar roles for the lands and people they are in charge of and care about. We see Sam nursing and healing the Shire...

Cibbwin, I like your observations and agree with most of them, but I'd like to point out that the Beren/Luthien storyline is actually quite a common traditional fairytale motif....there's a whole 'family' including Cupid and Psyche, East of the Sun and West of the Moon, which involves princesses looking for lost husbands)

[Cibbwin]

Oh, really, Lalaith? That's my ignorance, then, I'm sorry. From what I've read, and I've read a... decent amount (Hee), the woman is the hero not nearly enough.

[Lalaith]

Fair enough!

[Encaitare]

Hey Kronos--
There is passion, but it's skirted around very well. I think that Faramir and Eowyn kissing atop the wall and not caring who saw them was the only moment of passion really put into words, but I believe there is something said about Beren "embracing" Luthien... now, you can go on and interpret exactly how much is meant by an "embrace" as far as you like!

But Tolkien definitely was not sexist. In Middle-earth, males pretty much dominate everything, but the few strong and powerful women are the ones who change things the most. For example...

1. Morgoth never would have been overthrown without the aid of Luthien.
2. Eowyn more or less killed the Witch-King (but that's been discussed so many times).
3. Galadriel is deemed worthy to be a bearer of one of the Three, and she holds a great power over her realm. Indeed, she is so powerful that many are frightened of her.
4. Mirkgirl makes a really good point about Haleth and Melian. The so-called "Girdle of Melian" protected her realm from evil as nothing else could, and Haleth was a strong leader of her people. Tolkien's women *are* often protectors, just like Mirkgirl said. Although the men go to war, the women don't sit around waiting to die. They prepare before the battles, protect their homeland when it is under seige, and heal when the fighting is done.
5. Arwen is the fair but rarely present princess, and is one of Aragorn's major motivations for his fight. Only by becoming king of both Gondor and Arnor can he wed Arwen, and this most likely makes him fight all the harder.
6. I read one of the earlier posts and it said that on Goldberry's washing day, it was raining. I actually didn't recall that, but the poster suggested that maybe she had some sort of power over water, being the "River-daughter." I find this pretty interesting, it seems that most of Tolkien's leading ladies possess some sort of trait that allows them to rise in the man's world.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Cibbwin

I've had quite a few of my more intelligent friends (Yes, teenagers can be intelligent) ask me if I think Tolkien was sexist. And my answer is usually two words: Luthien Tinuviel. She's a woman who saves the DUDE from the dark tower. She's the one who goes into the "underworld" and saves the DUDE again. That's almost unheard of in fairy tales.

I agree, that this empowerment given women nowadays can be sexist. The reason being that the tough chick is always this sex kitten. And the lead dude always bangs her in the end. So the woman is STILL degraded to a sex object. And she STILL gets saved by the dude. I saw Van Helsing hoping that Kate Beckinsale's character would kick butt and hold onto her dignity, but she uses her sabre once, and that is to cut rope.

Of course, the part of Luthien Tinuviel could also be interpreted to mean that the woman is fulfilling her traditional duty of serving the man. She can't live without him, because he is her protector, so she must risk life and limb to get him back.
Not that I agree with that.

There are so few women in Tolkien's books that it is hard to judge, so as a baseline I'm going back to my handy dictionary.

sex ism 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; esp : discrimination against women 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition


Well, there is certainly sexism of the first definition in Tolkien's work- there are many, many fewer women characters of all races. True, some of them play prominent roles, but there are many more prominent male characters.

The second definition is more difficult. Did Tolkien's writings reinforce 'stereotypes of social roles based on sex'? In Lord of the Rings, we have eight female characters: Lobelia, Rose, Goldberry, Arwen, Galadriel, Eowyn, Ioreth, and Shelob. There are more mentioned, but only names. So of the eight, one is a shrew, one is a hobbit-lass, and later wife and mother, one is an unknown force of nature, one is an Elf-queen, one is a warrior-princess, one is a healer, and one is a big spider and force of evil. These are their primary roles; however, we know for sure that all but one was either a wife or mother, and usually both. (Goldberry is a wife of sorts but not, as far as we know, a mother; Shelob is a mother but not a wife. Ioreth is unknown.) It's a pretty fair bet to say that Tolkien felt that a woman's place was as a wife and mother- not her only place, however, as can be seen by the assortment of 'professions', if you will, above.
I would have to say that the second definition does not apply to Tolkien. Yes, his characters usually fit the social roles for women at the time he was writing his stories, but they also transcended them. Women have been wives and mothers since the beginning of time- it's a physiological necessity. Tolkien was ahead of many of his time by writing that women could be other things, too.

I will leave it up to someone else to argue whether sexism, as expressed in the first definition, is really a bad thing.

Postscript- Cibbwen, I saw Pirates of the Caribbean in the same frame of mind. I was positive that the leading lady would be a helpless, screaming chick. I was pleasantly surprised. There is hope out there!

[Lyta_Underhill]

It's a pretty fair bet to say that Tolkien felt that a woman's place was as a wife and mother- not her only place, however, as can be seen by the assortment of 'professions', if you will, above.

It might be interesting to put the shoe on the other foot for a moment; keep in mind that it is physically impossible for a man to bear a child! Women are uniquely positioned to make the choice between following the man's path (i.e. warrior princess, leader, wise woman, etc.) and the "traditional" role of wife and mother and home protector/healer. Eowyn's story is interesting in her final apparent turnaround, when she beholds the Shadow departing in the East and suddenly decides she will seek death no longer. She decides to take on the role of the healer and wife to Faramir because the shadow departs from her heart. In effect, she "chooses life." All stereotype aside, I think that there is a palpable theme of the woman signifying the life force, the future of Man in Middle Earth. I seem to remember a lot of talk on these threads concerning just what Arwen meant to Aragorn, and that he fought mainly for her, for the promise of life and future, rather than for destruction and death alone. It is an admirable quality and one reason I have a creeping fondness for Aragorn.

In a way, I find the dogged determination of some women to assume the man's role simply because of the cultural superiority attributed to the man in the popular view to be a sickness of the soul, a reaction to a cultural state rather than a choice made of free will. Eowyn's sickness is the sickness of many women--to seek death out of despair of one's position, the loss of hope for a desire that is not necessarily healthy. I hope I haven't stirred a vat of controversy!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Lathriel]

The whole sexist issue really affects the authors and what they write. Now the main female character is often some sort of tomboy who can fight really well etc.
Of course this is also done to keep all the comments of sexism off the poor authors back. I just think people get to worked up about it in general and it seriously influences some of the books that are written nowadays.

[Amanaduial the archer]

There had never been a ruling queen in Gondor anyway so why would she expect to take the throne?

Lalaith - in the words of Arwen (film Arwen, at least), 'there is always hope'.

Eowyn had been brought up surrounded by strong men, male warriors, and when she was younger, she would have seen no reason why she could not be equal to them. This mindset would probably have been rather deep set by the time she was a young woman and realised that the thinking of the rest of Middle Earth at the time was not the same, but, being so determined, she would probably not have changed her thinking anyway.

Also, she had proved herself a warrior - the witch king said no man could kill him, and no one did: it was one of the most unlikely of characters, a woman. She was a fine warrior, and this feat would prove her worth - people find it easier to follow a hero, and that was what Eowyn had proved herself to be by killing the Witch King.

Besides, at some time, the Numenoreans believed that a female ruler could be as strong as a male, and the Queens, even when they weren't ruling, were strong in themselves: Tar-Miriel, for example, refusing to give in and follow the ways of her wicked husband, worshipping Melkor and driving the true Numenoreans underground, when she knew it were wrong. Eowyn was of the same strong spirit, and she probably knew it, through practically rather than vanity: if this was the case, there would be no reason why she would not have made as fine a ruler as any man.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I have something of a crazy theory about Éowyn that goes to this idea of women in LotR as healers.

While Éowyn decides at the end of her journey to adopt a more ‘traditional’ female role as wife of Faramir and become The White Lady, she has already fulfilled a ‘healing’ function by taking the place of Boromir in the Fellowship. (See what I mean about it being a crazy theory?) In this way, she’s already taken the place of a man – please note, I am not saying that she is taking on a masculine role (that is, one that is ‘meant for’ a man) but that she is taking the place of a man (Boromir) who failed in his fidelity.

When Boromir fails the Fellowship at Parth Galen (and yes I know he redeems himself in protecting Merry and Pippin) he leaves a gap in the nine. This gap is filled by Éowyn as she goes on the journey that would have been Boromir’s had he lived; or, at least, she is at first denied going on the journey (with Aragorn along the Paths of the Dead) but by taking matters into her own hands (very much like Boromir) she rides to the defence of Minas Tirith (Boromir’s only concern), wins glory and renown in the defeat of the city’s besieger (Boromir’s greatest wish), and then falls in love with Faramir (Boromir’s brother).

Éowyn and Boromir are a lot alike: they are both warriors, they both seek personal glory, and they both honour Aragorn and come to love him and acknowledge his as their lord (in their own ways). It makes sense to me then that when Boromir ‘breaks’ the Fellowship, it is up to Éowyn to ‘heal’ that breach. She is the opposite of Boromir in a key way: because of his despair, Boromir wants to take up the Ring and put himself forward as the saviour of his realm. Because of her despair, Éowyn wants to sacrifice herself for the sake of her realm. Both of them choose incorrect paths insofar as each is motivated by despair, but whereas Boromir thinks of himself, Éowyn thinks of others (Aragorn, Merry, Theoden).

It’s like Boromir and Éowyn are a despairing mirror of Aragorn and Arwen.

[Lyta_Underhill]

While Éowyn decides at the end of her journey to adopt a more ‘traditional’ female role as wife of Faramir and become The White Lady, she has already fulfilled a ‘healing’ function by taking the place of Boromir in the Fellowship. (See what I mean about it being a crazy theory?)

Wow, Fordim! You have come up with a theory I've never heard of before, but somehow it rings true in some particulars. Have you tried testing the theory by replacing Boromir with Eowyn in the Fellowship? I can see Eowyn thinking the way Boromir does about the Ring, but I have a hard time picturing her attacking Frodo for it. Could she pull the "I beg thee!" desperate plea on Frodo like she did with Aragorn? I doubt it would work on Frodo...hmmm...must think about that more before going off about it.

Her interactions with Merry seem also parallel, if one wants to draw parallels from Eowyn to Fellowship members. She and Merry have the "left behind" syndrome, the feeling that they cannot affect the evil besetting them, a helplessness and rage against it. I can see this being a point of Boromir's character, although he, being a strong man of action in an established warrior's seat in Gondor, is not subject to the same level or kind of despair that the non-traditionals are (Merry and Eowyn). But you are right in one thing in my opinion--they are focused on the death aspect, the winning of war by killing off the enemy. Because they are narrowly focused on the death side of the warrior's world view, they do seem a dark mirror to the life-focused characters of Aragorn and Arwen.

Similarly, there seems to be a life/death dichotomy between Merry and Pippin in ROTK especially. While Merry rides with the Rohirrim shouting "DEATH!!" Pippin tries valiantly to keep Faramir from that very thing. (I don't know how far I could take THAT crackpot theory, though...) I'm thinking about starting an "Outrageous Crackpot Theories" thread on ME Mirth one of these days, just for the more outlandish of these theories. Just wait until you see all the identities for Tom Bombadil! Since I'm going off on a tangent, I'll close for now...

Cheers!
Lyta (whose second choice for personal title was "Crackpot in Residence")

[haltred]

Tolkien was not sexist. At least not intentionally. He was a product of Victorian & Edwardian England. His female charecters are quite charming, brave,decisive
the former Erowyn's joining in armewd conflict the latter Arwen's giving up her immortality for the love of Aragon. That there copuld have been more female cahreters well yes. But it's to a female charecter , Rosey Gamgee that Sma Gamgee's coments , last line of the book is addressed "I'm back".

[davem]

Originally Posted by H-I

et for those holding Tolkien unable to describe man/woman relationship, Kronos, I should recommend Aldarion and Erendis, as found in Unfinished Tales. There is a good read on it.

Yet the story of Aldarion & Erendis is more complicated, at least according to Elizabeth Currie, in her book The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien:

Erendis is indeed a feminist of sorts; but hers is a feminism which I think few women would want much to do with. she does not go beyond the stereotypes of her culture; she merely accepts some & inverts others. Erendis scorns the doings of men just as many men at that time scorned the domestic doings of women. When in her husbands absence she establishes her own household, it is wholly feminine. For instance, there is no music in Erendis’ house; playing instruments is men’s business, & since there are no men, there is no music, apart from the songs the women servants sing to accomppany their work...

Erendis’s great faults are pride & self-will. At the beginning of their courtship, she is said to think that Aldarion ‘was too high’. Yet she looked on no man with favour thereafter, * every suiitor was dismissed.’ Too high or not, Erendis knows who she wants to marry & is more tahn loathe to let him go...Erendis is depicted as knowing full well what she does. ‘Never would Erendis take less, that she might not lose all; & fearing the sea, & begrudging to all ships the felling of trees which she loved, she determined that she must utterly defeat the Sea & the ships, or else herself be defeated utterly.’ ....She is determined that Aldarion will be hers & hers alone - to make him subsume his personality in hers, in a grotesque inversion of the turn-of-the-century theory that a woman should ‘dislove herself’ in her husband (enshrined in Wagner’s opera Lohengrin among other places)....It can well be said that Aldarion has the same faullts, but he at least is shown as trying to share his interests & enthusiasms with his wife, whereas Erendis meets all overtures with blank indifference.

The over-domesticated aspect of Erendis extends to her understanding - or lack of it - of the wider world. Erendis is a creature of the island realm of Numenor. ...If Erendis acknowledges the existence of a wider world, then she will have to accept that her model of how the world works, which is based only upon Numenor, is not necessarily right. She will have to change her mind because of an external influence, & the change is potentially drastic. If that change is too big, then she will indeed ‘die’; she will no lloger be who she thinks she is right now. And Erendis cannot make the leap of imagination to see taht the new person might be beneficially different; that she might grow as the result of her experiences. ..

Indeed, Erendis has more than a touch of Denethor’s attitude; if she cannot have exactly what she wants she will accept nothing else. Failing to see that changes she has not willed may lead to growth & unforseen good things, Erendis falls into stagnation. She has to dominate all around, & when that fails she has no idea what to do next except to remain within the small sphere where she does have power over what happens. It is an interesting version of one of Tolkien’s long-term preoccupations, the rights & wrongs of power & free will.

Erendis’s disinterest in the wider world, then, fits exactly with her character; ultimately she is a shallow, self-centred woman who cares for others only as they serve her will. Those who can neither affect her nor be affected by her are dismissed as irrelevant; they might as well not exist...

Her unjust actions mean misery for her own decendants, & she proves unwise as a ruler of a people as well. Ancalime neglects all her father’s overseas policies, & it can be argued , following one of Tolkien’s versions of the history of Numenor, that this is not just a minor mistake...

As blind to the world as her mother, Ancalime protects Numenor’s trees at the cost of massive, uncontrolled deforestation elsewhere. Nor does she ever think of extending her care to people who may not themselves be Numenoreans, but who are being seriously affected by things that Numenoreans do - things that could be controlled if Ancalime wanted to do so. By pretending taht greed & racism do not exist & so not bothering to combat them, Ancalime allows the first hint of the Sahdow to enter Numenor - the Shadow of evil that will ultimately lead to the destruction of the island & its people together...It is a devastating picture of what happens when people can neither hold to their ‘proper’ roles nor transcend them, & as such, I think it is in accord with Tolkien’s other writings.

I wonder if that will spark any comments!

[Mithalwen]

OhI find the Aldarion and Erendis story so interesting....... I mean it is very different from the vast majority of relationships in the books...... which are ...basically fairy stories .... love at first sightand whatever trials and tribulations the couple go through the problems aren't with the relationship .....

The exceptions which spring to mind are Faramir and Eowyn, the unwitting incestuous relationship of Turin and Niniel and the stupendously dysfunctional but so modern one of Aldarion and Erendis... it always slightly surprises me that it was really written by the dear Prof, who seems to have fallen in love with more or less the first girl he met and remained devoted to her for the rest of his life.. One can only assume he was an acute observer of less idyllic relationships....

I always think of that other " fairytale-that -wasn't " when I read Aldarion and Erendis - The Prince and Princess of Wales (can open: worms everywhere?)


It is interesting the idea comparing Erendis with Denethor ..... since the other exception I thought of was the largely untold one of Denethor and Finduilas....

[Lyta_Underhill]

Indeed, I was intrigued by the story of Aldarion and Erendis, and felt it to be one of the greater arguments for Tolkien's ability to closely draw characters (for anyone who would say his characterizations were two-dimensional). The relationship begins with the promise of its own decay, and perhaps the most tragic part of it is the corruption of Ancalime's worldview and the beginning of the Numenoreans' separation from the rest of the world. Could one have argued that the "intermarriage" between one of Elros' line and one of the lesser (non-Elven ancestry) lines of the Edain was an underlying cause for the disparity in the worldview of these two? It seemed to be an undercurrent and whispered among some, but, in reality, neither Aldarion nor Erendis could overcome their personal agendas and personal realities. They didn't mesh, and they didn't wish to give up anything in order to mesh. Somehow, I can't help thinking that Aldarion could have explained his doings a little better, while Erendis could have made an effort to meet her husband halfway. And the greatest sin of all of them was Erendis' use of Ancalime as a living instrument of psychological revenge against Aldarion and all he stood for.

I have a hard time thinking of Erendis as a feminist; rather I think of her as tragically blinded and separate, afflicted with a sickness that, unlike Eowyn's, was not cured. The flavor is more modern (if dysfunctional can be said to be modern), the characterizations much more closely drawn, less epic, and yet a keen window into the seeds of the downfall of Numenor. Thanks, davem and H-I for bringing up this tidbit from the UT!

Cheers!
Lyta

[akhtene]

After reading “Aldarion and Erendis” I still can’t make up my mind whether to despise her or pity. Of course, she made hell out of her own life and of others’ around her (see DAVEM’s post). On the other hand, what of her own expectations and the promises she had got? Wasn’t her man supposed to be true to his word? Anyway, the criticism seems to me reasonably justified, but then, weren’t some people here blaming Eowyn for quite the opposite? (nothing personal meant). Let’s see: Eowyn speaks of her feelings to Aragorn (too outspoken); Erendis doesn’t pursue Aldarion (but she’s shrewd and knowing full well what she does)
Eowyn wishes to break out of her cage (uncaring for her people, social role etc); Erendis hates the idea of leaving the Island (over-domesticated)
Eowyn wishes to go to battle – for no matter what reasons (unwomanly); Erendis doesn’t care for the problems of the outside world (unwise)
Eowyn eventually finds her true love (perhaps too soon and too easily); Erendis looked on no man with favour and later set up a female household (again too shrewd and a man-hater) etc

Well, the comparison is very shallow of course, but I just feel one can criticize people for quite the opposite reasons. Still, I love Eowyn and sympathise with Erenis (at least a bit)
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There is one more thing I noticed while reading A&E. Is theirs the only couple in which a husband is superior to a wife? (I mean descent and life-span) And the union proves a real disaster. Any comments to that?

[HerenIstarion]

Welcome back, Akhtene We haven't seen you around for what? an year? Nice to have you posting again

Not to be overly off topic, let me assure you that I still stand by what I've said on page 1

Cheers

[Mithalwen]

Having just read HI's original post..... well it is an oversimplification to say that men and women are different - though not untrue ..... sometimes the mind is not in alignment with the body ...... some men have feminized brains and some women masculinisxed ones, possibley due to hormone influences in utero ...

Also abart from the "nature" ... look at "nurture" - Eowyn was raised from an early age without real female role models - orphaned she goes to live with a widowed uncle, his son and her brother ...all who are or become mighty warriors..... especially given that her aunt died in childbirth it isn't surprising that she seems to reject her femininity....

It is so easy to understand her frustration......it is so very recently even in the west that women have had a choice .....

[HerenIstarion]

I'm bringing this up, for its own sake, as well as for CbC discussion's (we are in Rohan, and soon A will meet E )

See also: Hope - lessly in love by Estelyn Telcontar

cheers