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#41 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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I don't want to delve into this topic, because it is really complex. My basic answer is: this cannot be really answered because Morm's question number 1 - whether Orcs have a will of their own - is a huge problem by itself. Personally, I believe they DO have a free will of their own (look at Gorbag and Shagrat, for instance), the point is, whether it is also a "freedom to do good" or just "freedom to do evil", so to say.
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Also, Morgoth had not created the Orcs, let's please use proper terms. He made them out of some original "material" which was there, and was only later corrupted by him. But anyway, as I said above, there were many Orcs who did not follow Morgoth or Sauron. It was only the matter of the "empire", and anyway, there have been large periods (like after the end of the First Age, i.e. after Morgoth's defeat, but before Sauron's making of the Ring, and also at the end of the Second Age, after Sauron's fall and before his rise in Mirkwood, some 1000 years when he had been totally powerless) when the Orcs were totally free from any big evil masters. So what you said above does not really hold here. Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#42 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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x/d with Legate, who had similar thoughts
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#43 | |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,645
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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#44 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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And "freedom to do evil" also has choices: to do it, or to do nothing (ie not good and not evil). I'm not really sure where I'm leading with this, but I think it's a valuable point. Quote:
flawed heroes=Thorin, Turin selfish manipulative damsel=Lobelia S-B. I haven't read UT yet, so I'm not sure if Erendis fits under this category sympathetic villains with believable motivations=Maedhros, Maglor, Caranthir (they aren't exactly villains, but they are during the kinslaying, and they all show their good side at one point or another). Gollum, who battles with his good-Smeagol side. Look carefully, and you'll see lots of shades of gray in Tolkien's works. ![]() And personally, I prefer "old 1950's stuff", as you put it, to modern fiction.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 05-01-2011 at 06:07 PM. |
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#45 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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I would also put Gandalf in the "white" category, and probably Aragorn and Faramir also. All three are given clear choices to embrace evil, and choose good instead.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#46 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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But, he comes so close to "black" that it's really undistinguishable. ![]() Quote:
However, this is a side discussion, and I will refrain from debating this further.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#47 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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And regarding the Orcs, he says: Quote:
If the Orcs are 'rational' creatures, it follows they must be capable of free will. And if Morgoth himself was not totally evil, the Orcs as a race could not be so either. Ah, but it's Ilúvatar's world, isn't it? He made it. Good and evil are his to define.
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#48 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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And that's a crux point, if a being is omnipotent and a universal creator, then terms like "good" and "evil" become functionally meaningless. The ominipotent creator makes the defintions and being the omnipotent creator, he can chage those defintions at any time, even retroactively if he/she so chooses. Indeed in that circumstance "good" basically ends up being defined for the being as "whatever I do". Actually that is probably the only way a purely good or evil character could exist, if you do the creator definiton concept of "Good is defined as whatever I do, Evil is defined as whatever you do i.e, the "I can do no wrong, you can do no right" concept." |
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#49 | |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
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I am not a huge fan of corruption point game mechanics, but when one looks at Boromir, Saruman and Wormtongue, I can understand how the author of Ambarquenta included it in a Tolkien game. There is a distinct differentiation between good and evil. Many characters are one or the other. Yet, a lot of the most interesting bits of the story center on those who have gone to some degree astray. That being said, in a conversation about Tolkien's orks, at least before the destruction of the Ring, they are pretty much pure black. After the destruction of the Ring, we don't know. We don't see them after the destruction of the Ring. |
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#50 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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First of all, Tolkien didn't write an RPG. I don't think it's really an appropriate comparisson. Especially about the points system. It's just not applicable to Tolkien's books.
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I'm not saying that they aren't evil; they just aren't pure black. Plus, according to them, the Free Peoples are the evil ones. ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 05-04-2011 at 04:58 PM. |
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#51 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: May 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2
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I think they can choose between good and evil, but because of peer pressure and the enviroment in which they are spawned virtually all become evil.
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