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#41 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Apr 2002
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My dear Gothmog, I do not recall in the book Legolas actually walking ON the snow. Please if I am wrong point me in the right direction. The only walking atop snow is done in the movie.
Edit: Dude! I started another page.
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#42 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Maybe we shall have some real snow here in Yorkshire soon enough and then I can try out some new experiments...
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#43 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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So, my even dearer Frodo, old lad. I think the quote provide by Lalwende proves that Legolas did walk on the snow in the books. Unless you're being technical and calls it "running" on snow? But still, he should have moved at a moderate speed when talking to the others.
But can somebody please confirm my suspicion that Legolas hardly leaves any prints on grass either? And Lalwende: I'm living like 3000 km north of you and I don't have any snow! But I promise you, as soon as those wonderful, white stars start falling, I'm going to try my best to run on the snow. Maybe if I go downhill...hmmm...... As I said earlier, is it possible that elves had a pair of huge feet the Tolkien forgot to mention?
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#44 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Ok Ok I concede, Legolas can walk on snow. But riddle me this. Can ALL elves walk on snow, or jsut some? We seem to be focusing on Legolas, but what of those such as Elrond the half elven and his 3/4 elven children?
And even more importantly, can they throw snowballs? ![]()
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#45 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
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#46 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Gothmog, if I had my books (which I don't) I would be looking in TTT for text regarding Legolas walking on grass. Or maybe at the end of FotR...somewhere it's stated that elves tread lightly.
And I will send snow if someone were to pay for shipping - will send freezing wind for free - though we may have to hurry as the weather is going to change yet again.
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#47 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
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Your proportions are correct, Gothmog. Although at 1/16 I would think the Maia dilute enough to be just this side of negligible. Elves like Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gildor seem to have more...what's the word I want, more power or "oomph" if you will than Elrond. (Described as an "Elf-friend" in The Hobbit.) Perhaps the humanity (whuch is nearly a full half) cancels out the Maia. But I shall leave Elven DNA to more expreienced minds.
BTW Gothmog, love the signature.
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#48 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Now when HUGO is finished (a project mapping the human genome) maybe it's time for EUGO, the mapping of the elven genome? Do the elven genome contain the usual nucleic acids with G-T-A-C (guanine, thyamin, adenine and cytosine), or do they have more nucleotids? What do the elven DNA look like???? And Alatar, no need to send the freezing wind, we've got that already. Actually there was some snow today, but not enough to make any experiments. But it will come... ![]()
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#49 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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Well, here in the Winterpeg we are having a really unusual fall... as it has snowed, then it all melted, snowed about 20 cm. in one night and then melted for the most part (yet what remains is nasty ice). Still, as soon as it snows again, I'll give snowrunning a shot. I might not be the ideal subject as I'm 6' and about 185 pounds but there's one thing I do recall from previous winters.
If it snows and then the weather gets really really cold, the top layer of snow will somewhat freeze and you will be able to walk on it. That is, until you find a soft spot in which you will sink knee-deep on snow. Still, if I can walk in frozen snow, I would guess a much lighter and athetic elf should be able to run on any kinds of snow. Also, I found this quote, but the topic has already been discussed... stil, for your enlightment and enjoyment, Quote:
Farael |
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#50 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Maybe Legolas tires so little because as an Elf, his days and years are much longer and he has a different concept of time and distance, hence he may possess more inate stamina. This might also explain why he is able to tread so lightly that he doesn't leave footprints. It could also be that as an Elf he is not wholly 'of this world' and leaves little behind him as he passes through it. The snow did not happen here (just lots of hard frost instead) so I have not yet had the chance to try out running on the snow, though when it does, as I live on a steep hill some running on the snow may happen involuntarily. ![]()
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#51 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Great! The long sought quote. Thank you Lalwende!
Quote:
Farael: Quote:
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#52 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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I don't think elves are any lighter than humans, just more graceful. Also, I'd believe they are less muscular and therefore lighter, but not because of some inherent quality, just because of their body build. I've been trying to run on snow, but I find that I step much heavier when I start runnning than when I'm walking... so I'm yet to figure out a way to gather up speed without falling through the top layer of snow. But I shall succeed, I still have at least four, probably five months of good snow to try my theory.
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#53 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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But if we assume that Legolas ability to walk on snow depends on his agility, his skill to walk softly, then he have to walk VERY softly to stop the laws of physic to do their work. It's true that you can walk on some snow (for example snow where the top layer has melted in the sun and later frozen again) but this was very new snow. And if it was "walkable" for Legolas due to his lesser muscle mass and softer steps, why couldn't the hobbits do the same thing? They must be much lighter than the men, maybe lighter then Legolas too. Plus they have large feet which makes the pressure against the surface they walk on less (P=F/A, pressure equals the force divided by the surface area).
I, too, believe that elves have a different body build than men, but I find it hard to believe that that would make such a big difference. I think it's a combination of the fact that they're more graceful and light and some sort of "gift" elves have. A passive skill which makes them tread this earth lighter than normal, mortal beings. Maybe because their not wholly of this world, they are in some minor way half-divine creatures, especially those elves that dwelt or dwelles in the West. It's going to be an interesting winter. A wave of broken bones will spread thorugh the Downs when the snow comes for real with everybody trying different ways of getting enough speed to run on the surface of the snow ![]()
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#54 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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Good point, maybe I should try walking lightly rather than running... and we don't really know if the hobbits were able to do it, as they never tried.
Yet I guess the evidence is piling up towards some unnatural Elvish skill... maybe they are able to spread their weight around in such way as to take advantage of the whole surface area of their feet while humans and hobbits will lean heavily on the back or front end of their feet and therefore apply pressure concentrated on a single point rather than spread out?? But I'm just guessing here... |
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#55 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
As you can see, the feet size is far more important that the weight and, assuming Boromir uses his whole foot, Boromir is actually less likely to go through the snow! To get a pressure as high as Legolas', his feet has to be smaller, for example 0,15x0,28 m. ***NOTE: All numbers regarding the characters weight is from their official hospital records that Elven Maids Weekly found when investigating the life of Legolas, se nr. 4, year 24 of the fourth age.*** ***NOTE 2: If you find any errors in my calculations, I blame it all on being tired, not having done any physics in the last two years and Elven Maids Weekly for false information***
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#56 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
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I don't know how well this applies to Tolkien's Elves, but in general folklore and mythology regarding Elves, they are supposedly less substantial than humans, being more ethereal. This makes them very light, and they leave very little impression on the surfaces they come in contact with. The idea of Elves being small came from this- an Elf our size is light enough that one could easily lift him/her, and this was later recounted as them being lesser in staure rather than density.
In the more religious mindsets from the era of fairytales, Men are more dense becuase they were formed from dust, where as Elves were some form of fallen angel. In Tolkien speak, this places them closer to the Valar and the Ainur than Man. In the same vein, I suppose Dwarves would be somewhat denser than Men. So, from this, I would say it's not really something they do on purpose, or a skill of any kind, but a natural occurence. Could they make snow angels? Probably, but it would be very shallow. A bonus would be that they wouldn't ruin it by standing up. ![]() EDIT: Also, the core of the Tolkien Elves have a core of flame, which would also make them less dense.
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#57 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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I know this is all but dead, yet today we got some snow so tomorrow I will probably try out walking in the snow and not sinking on it. For the time being I think I will try running on the snow starting on the snow itself, gathering speed outside the snow and then going in the snow, walking normaly in the snow and walking carefully in the snow. Anyone has more ideas of what I should try?
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#58 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
Posts: 1,696
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Be less dense than the snow?
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#59 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Back in my college days, when I had more adrenaline than sense, I decided on one boring day that I would attempt running in snow barefoot. The temperature was about zero degrees Celsius, there was little wind and the sun was in the sky. In the apartment complex in which we lived there was a courtyard that was boxed by the apartments, and there was a toppled snowman sitting in the middle about 25 yards out that we had built some days before.
My plan was to run out to the snowman, stand on top of the body, then run back. I wore tropical shorts and a flannel shirt to...ahhh...keep me warm and stylish. Note: don't do this, it could be fatal. Well, I ran out and the first thing that I noticed was that the snow felt like sand to the touch, and instead of being cold, which I would have expected, it actually burned. I made it out to the snowman without incident, but on the way back I started to feel very sluggish. By the time I made it to the warmth of the apartment my heart was racing so fast (trying to compensate for my stupidity) that I was sure that it was going to exit my chest. It took over 30 minutes to recover, and at the time I was pretty fit. So whatever you do, think it out first. You're not an elf, you're going to feel cold and you will sink. And elves did not wear bunny slippers. Note that the attached image shows when I at least had sense enough to wear boots.
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#60 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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Don't worry Alatar but in this city you learn to respect the cold, as it can get pretty bad. Although I have to admit that
-Playing snow football I didn't realize my fingers were turning blue, although I still had sensitivity on them and they did not feel sluggish or anything -I went toboganning when it was -50 C with the windchill. The first five minutes were alright, but after another five I had to run back inside because I Was freezing Yet my plans were to try running on the snow wearing boots!! my excuse for that would have been that it'd give me a larger surface area and therefore there'd be less pressure on the snow. I'll write again later with the results.... although odds are, I'll just make a lot of tracks in the snow. Quote:
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#61 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
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Well, after a while of fun experimentation (wish Science was just as fun) I have found that.... I cannot walk on snow without leaving a BIG imprint. No matter if I run, walk, starting from the snow or from a surface next to it, it won't make much of a difference. If anything, I have found that running from a hard surface into snow increases the chance of winding up with a facefull of snow
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#62 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I just walked through the thread again, and what an interesting read!
Just some thoughts:
Well, as the local forecast includes possible snow, I must go and perform my civic duty, which is to act like a few inches of snow falling in winter constitutes the end of civilization/the apocalypse. Snow?!? In winter? When did that ever start? After disregarding all traffic laws and throwing common courtesy out the window, I will buy up all the bread, milk and toilet tissue that I can hoard then retreat slowly back to my domicile (as everyone else is out doing the same thing, and so the dry roads are clogged with panicked shoppers). For those who don't understand this behavior, you must understand that the news media (supported by many grocery chains) makes sure that each snowfall is an event, whether snow falls or not. And as this might just be the big one, I might not be able to go shopping for...24 hours at the most. The way some people react you'd think that cannibalism would set in after 4 hours without shopping. But more likely, if snow does come, I will take advantage of the moment and go outside with the kids to make snow angels, as that's what life's all about. Thanks for posting.
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#63 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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#64 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
And I, too, have tried walking on the snow up here. Without success of course. I still think that elves had gigantic feet that made it possible for them to walk on snow. Like small skis or snowshoes!
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#65 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Strange, but this thread makes me feel somehow abnormal for not trying to walk on snow to see if I can avoid making an impression because I instinctively know that I cannot ...
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#66 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
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#67 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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![]() Quote:
Legolas I ain't. ![]()
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#68 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Finally, some snow. As you will see, Legolas does slightly sink into the snow, but he does not sink all the way down. This would suggest that he could make a snow angel (or would it be a snow Ainur? oooh, can of worms...), as he would no doubt leave some impression. However, we caught him at rest here (I think he saw the cat so he had to get his white knife at the ready, or perhaps he was just waiting in vain for the bus) so the question of how much impression his feet leave when he is moving remains unanswered.
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#69 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Thanks Lalwendë for bringing up this thread!!! I wanted to as I have some new developments. On Christmas day, my friends and I had a snow-football game... the field was REALLY covered in snow (probably over a foot) which messed up the game, BUT I managed to make a few interesting findings.
First of all, it should be noted that the weather has been unusually warm (around zero degrees Celsious or 32 Farenheit) and so the snow had melted slightly and frozen again, therefore being unusually hard. The first thing we thought was "hey, let's run around and trample down the snow!" and so we did. I will always sink on snow but specially if I run. Soon enough I had snow up to my knees, I don't know how I managed that because the snow was not THAT high. Then, after giving up on the running idea, we just stood around passing the football until everyone came. Guess what? I could actually stand on top of the snow for a couple of seconds. It wasn't for too long and it wasn't recently fallen snow, but I could stand on top of it. Then it broke and I fell through as nature will have me do every time. Still, if you assume that elves are perhaps lighter than men, they might have been able to stay on top of the snow... if you add HUGE, paddle-like feet to these elves, they will most definetly do. Think about gigant duck feet ![]() Does Tolkien ever talk about elvish FEET? if not, we should assume the duck-feet theory to be, at best, a good explanation. |
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#70 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
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A new experiment!
I have spent the morning attempting to clear the driveway - I'm still only half done ![]() Data: Snow depth - approximately 3.5 inches Snow type - very heavy and dense, but neither frozen over nor melting Unfortunately, in an area of lighter snow, I was unable to remain on the surface.
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#71 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread.
I contend that it's the spirit of flame. Hot air rises, after all. That's why we have hot air balloons.
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#72 |
Mellifluous Maia
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Funny to see this; I was just thinking of Legolas a couple days ago when I set out across the quad (in about 6-8 inches of dense, but not frozen, snow), and found that for about 2/3 of the steps my feet stayed on the snow's surface. I actually tested a few different types of steps (to the amusement of all in the vicinity, no doubt) and found:
1) Walking faster makes sinking more likely. 2) Trying to step lightly makes sinking more likely. 3) Denser snow is a slightly bluer shade of white - so perhaps elvish vision and thousands of years of experience have something to do with it? 4) Heel-to-toe steps sink less often than toe-to-heel. Conclusion: it's a learned skill, and elves can make snow angels. |
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#73 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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#74 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Ahhh lovely to see this thread still living.
With all the snow we've gotten this winter, I should try it out, but we've been having EXTREMELY cold weather. It's better now (about -20 C or -8 F) but for a while it was lower than -40 (which is the same C and F) and that's too cold to be outside, unless you MUST. Prediction: Farael will sink right through the snow which is probably higher than the rim of his boot, and as he tries to get his foot out of the snow the snow will get inside the boot and he'll have to run back inside before his toes freeze.
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#75 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Note that, if you walk on a light dusting of granular snow (not the wet sticky kind) that sits atop concrete or other hard surface, in a moderate to strong wind, you will leave no (or almost no) footprints. Maybe Legolas, and the elves entire, just knew where to place their slippers.
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#76 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Well, now, we had an ice/snow storm a couple months ago, and everyone, including horses, could walk on top of it all without leaving any marks at all!
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#77 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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Good to see such a sweet thread bumped up and maintained with light-hearted faire. It would be a grim bit of northern humour to see a jaundiced post consider the gravity, specific or otherwise, of yellow snow.
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#78 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I'm restraining myself...and just how would a jaundiced eye perceive yellow snow? White and untainted? Anyone with some lemonade and a pair of appropriately tinted glasses/goggles can put this too to the test.
![]() Speaking of yellow eyes, do we know the color variation of the elven eye, and just what spectra are perceptible from the same? Elves see things that remain unseen to the human eye (moon letters, portends, running orcs at great distances, etc). Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?
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#79 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
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While yellow snow's specific gravity and density may be higher than that of the surrounding white snow, I suspect that its other properties make it unsuitable for travel or snow angels. I believe that I am fortunate in having the ability to distinguish yellow from white easily.
![]() Roa's theory regarding the Elven spirit of flame suggests a new possibility. What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.
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#80 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.) Maybe elves do have a different density than humans or hobbits? Is Legolas' ability to walk upon snow (not water, now, snow), part of elven knowledge of the dark dimension? This is a very different take from that of Roa and Celuien's thoughts on the warming condition of the secret flame. Quote:
I seem to be developing two different lines of arguments here. The topic is so slippery.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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