Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
08-13-2006, 11:07 AM | #41 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Gandalf is clear Quote:
|
||
08-13-2006, 02:11 PM | #42 |
Dead Serious
|
As odd as it may be for me to weigh in on the same side of a canonicity debate as Davem... that's what I appear to be doing.
But to give the Letter fuller weight than I am inclined to do, I have to ask, when Gandalf is said to be the only one who might be fully expected to master the Ring in Sauron's despite, of what group is Tolkien selecting here? After all, I'm fairly sure that just about any Valar could pick up the Ring, use it with no adverse effects, and quash Sauron into the ground. No, Tolkien is clearly saying of a certain group, only Gandalf could be expected to use the Ring successfully. Well, what is this "certain group". My own reading of it is that this group doesn't included Saruman at all, that when Tolkien was saying this, he had in mind the bigwigs of the West, the group highlighted in Davem's quotes of the previous post: Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, possibly Denethor- and Gandalf. Of the "ringleaders" of the West, looking at this list, it makes perfect sense to say that Gandalf was the only one that could be expected to best Sauron. He was the only one who was Sauron's peer WITHOUT the Ring. And, looked at in this light, this doesn't so much weaken the Saruman claim, as make it stronger, since Saruman was also Sauron's native peer.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
08-13-2006, 02:26 PM | #43 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
This is not at all surprising considering that Sauron himself did not seem to be aware of all the aspects and potentialities of the Ring (see his belief that it had been destroyed...) Quote:
Quote:
I don't think there is any doubt about which opinion we need to follow in this case.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||
08-13-2006, 02:31 PM | #44 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now, it may well be that Tolkien changed his conception of the nature of the Ring in the post-LotR period, but for his statement in the letter to be acceptable he would have had to re-write a good part of the story, change motivations & behaviour. If we are to take Tolkien's statement in the letter as fact we have to say that major characters from Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron himself are either completely mistaken about the nature of the Ring, are lying, or are simply making stuff up. because they make what are apparently very clear statements about the nature & power of the Ring. It even smacks of some kind of conspiracy as all those characters, both good & bad, are telling the same lie (including, let me add, the narrator of the story!). Sorry, but the easiest way out of this 'dilemma' is to dismiss Tolkien's statement & let the story stand. |
||
08-13-2006, 02:35 PM | #45 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
I'm afraid there is no traction for this idea from this angle either. And besides, Denethor was evidently had more strength of spirit than Saruman as he did not turn traitor. This does not speak well of Saruman's strength of will and strength of will would be a critical ingredient (probably the critical ingredient in mastering the Ring).
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
08-13-2006, 02:45 PM | #46 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
08-13-2006, 02:52 PM | #47 | |||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
Quote:
I find that unlikely in the extreme. The Ring would probably deceive that individual into thinking it was mastered and then betray said person to Sauron at the first available opportunity. The individual in question would quite likely be so power mad by that point that they wouldn't know if the Ring were truly mastered. It is probably the seeds of self-doubt that reside in Gandalf (among other things) that make him uniquely capable of mastering the Ring. He would probably be less susceptible to its lies. Saruman does not impress on this score, and quite frankly, neither does Galadriel. Elrond might be a slightly different matter. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||||
08-13-2006, 03:34 PM | #48 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
It is a question of 'will'. Aragorn's will was stronger than Saruman's - who let it be remembered fell to Sauron via the Palantir. Aragorn not only did not fall to him he actually proved that his will was stronger than Sauron's. Will is the essential element in controlling the Ring. Wresting control of the Palantir (or anything else) from Sauron was something no-one else in Middle-earth could have done.
Aragorn may not have claimed he could master the Ring, but Gandalf, in the Last Debate, clearly states that he could. This argument centres around one comment in one letter, which was never meant for publication & probably reflects Tolkien's speculations at that time. There is no reason to suppose that he continued to hold that view. And if he did it would have caused as many inconsistencies as his later development of Galadriel & 'Dome of Varda', etc, did. I think that if another commentator had made that statement about only Gandalf being able to master the Ring you would have laughed them out of court, using the same arguments & quotes that the rest of us have been using, because it doesn't fit the facts. |
08-13-2006, 04:31 PM | #49 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'. That's something that I'm sure none of us could argue against - that's part of why the Ring is so dangerous and seductive. It makes people think they could truly 'master' it, when in reality they would never be acting with their own will.
I do think that if say Gandalf had used the Ring then Sauron could have been, if not totally destroyed, then at least fatally harmed (in as far as Maiar can be 'fatally harmed' ). I also think that Saruman could have had as much a chance, such as there was, with the Ring as any of his contemporaries.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
08-14-2006, 12:14 AM | #50 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
The LOTR does appear to give a lot of indirect pointers to the fact that a character with a great power of their own COULD wield the Ring & challenge Sauron, & even be capable of casting him from his throne, whilst the challenger would become the new dark lord. Examples are The Council of Elrond where Elrond speaks of his fear of wielding the Ring, when Gandalf refuses to claim the ring from Frodo whilst still in the Shire, & of course when Frodo offers the Ring to Galadriel. All of these 3 characters show enormous signs of distress when the thought of the Ring being offered to them is mentioned. They all mentioned that should they wield the Ring, they themselves would then become like the Dark Lord Sauron. An interesting point is made by Elrond, wisest of loremasters, when he considers Saruman as an example, stating that by using the arts of the enemy COULD lead to the overthrowing of Sauron. It is comments like these which paint a picture inside some readers that a character with a great power of their own, & a strong will, could wield the Ring with time & use the Ring to challenge Sauron - that was Sauron's greatest fear, according to Gandalf when he reappears in the White Rider chapter. So after giving all these hints, all of a sudden we must accept that nobody but perhaps Gandalf may be expected to wield the Ring? It seems unlikely, but then again these comments may be taken to imply that Gandalf was the favourite of all the Wise to be able to wield the Ring (i.e. the one with the best chance of overthrowing Sauron by using the Ring), but that it was still possible for others to do it. That is as near as the truth as far as I am concerned. Last edited by Mansun; 08-14-2006 at 12:21 AM. |
|
08-14-2006, 09:21 AM | #51 | ||||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And I can hear you even now typing away something to the effect of, “Well, why was Sauron so afraid?” He had lost the War of the Last Alliance even with the Ring. His assault on Gondor had failed. There was cause for concern. As we saw with his earlier belief that the Ring had been destroyed, he doesn’t seem to know all the things that might happen in different circumstances with the Ring. He probably couldn’t be sure what would happen if somebody made a serious attempt to claim the Ring. We can’t say what the exact effect of this would have been. Tolkien’s letter was written from the perspective of authorial omniscience. Simply put, Tolkien had knowledge his characters did not. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||||||||
08-14-2006, 12:14 PM | #52 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Ok, I accept that if you are prepared to completely alter the characters' motivations, attitudes, intelligence level & general honesty, ignore clear & implied authorial statements within the text itself, are willing to invent new motivations for characters which are the opposite of the motives which they are clearly stated in the book to have, make characters renowned for their wisdom into idiots who don't know their Ainur from their Eldar, & are happy to accept Gandalf as a moral coward who would send Frodo & Sam to their deaths (by lying to them & telling them he himself could not master the Ring & would wnd up enslaved to it), in order to destroy something that he himself could have 'mastered', then certainly you can make one line in one private letter (which as far as we know he was never challenged on) 'fit' with the story.
|
08-14-2006, 05:00 PM | #53 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
None of that is the least bit necessary to reconcile the letter to the story. Let’s take a look at each of the characters one at a time.
Elrond He says… Quote:
Galadriel She says… Quote:
Speaking directly about Galadriel, Tolkien said (in his own voice)… Quote:
In other respects she is very similar to Elrond in her desire to see this evil destroyed forever. Just because it would have been impossible for her to successfully challenge Sauron by using the Ring doesn’t diminish the fact that she refused temptation. I see no difficulties reconciling the character of Galadriel between the letter and the books. Aragorn I have to admit that I don’t see that there is a whole lot more to say about him in this context. He didn’t lay any claim to the Ring at all and when Frodo attempted to give it to him at the Council of Elrond he specifically denied it. He won a contest of wills against Sauron over his own property, but Aragorn’s claim of ownership gave him an advantage. Sauron’s fears of Aragorn likely stem from the fact that Aragorn’s ancestors defeated him even when he had the Ring. I think it unsurprising that this alone would cause Sauron concern. Saruman Admittedly, this horse has been pretty well beaten to death already, so just a few high points… Saruman’s will was ultimately proven to have been weaker than Gandalf’s, Aragorn’s, and Denethor’s. Denethor is particularly telling as nobody that I’ve ever seen has put him in the Hall of Potential Successful Challengers to Sauron. Sauron was able to play Saruman like a well-tuned zither. There is no particular reason to believe that Saruman could have been able to enslave/compel/fool the Ring (which was part of Sauron) into serving him and not betray him to Sauron at the first convenient opportunity. The fact that Saruman was deluded by his greed into falling and chasing after something that would never be in his power to have only makes the character more tragic and the story more interesting, in my opinion. The primary issue here appears to be that people just don’t want to give up some of their ideas about him. Gandalf Quote:
All the characters in the story were trying to trying to preserve their freedom and overthrow a terrible tyranny. Whether they did or did not believe that they themselves could have mastered the Ring and set themselves up in Sauron’s place doesn’t, in my view, reflect one way or the other upon their underlying motivations. What they did try was to use Sauron’s fears about somebody else using the Ring against him. (It is interesting to note that in several cases the mere thought of the Ring just being in the possession of another was enough to drive individuals into varying states of frenzy. There is every reason to think that Sauron himself would be consumed with a terrible Ring-lust just for its own sake. It was literally a part of him gone missing). In Gandalf’s case, his fears were completely justified. It may also be true that he feared Gandalf far more than Aragorn. That may even be likely. It would certainly be in keeping with Gandalf’s personality if at the Last Debate he was simply displaying modesty in downplaying the fears he awoke in Sauron and making Aragorn look greater. Gandalf was also thinking about the future of Gondor, which Aragorn embodied. Have to impress the future underlings and all that.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||||
08-15-2006, 12:08 AM | #54 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
Boromir & Sam cannot be likened to the loremasters in this manner, as they do not have a great power of their own, & are not strong willed enough. And I believe that what Elrond said, that by using the arts of the enemy one of great power could ''overthrow'' (& not just challenge) Sauron & take his seat on his throne to become yet another Dark Lord is not just a mere thought or prediction, it is the truth. Elrond afterall is greatest of all the loremasters, & is telling it as it really is - the Ring is a threat to the Wise as they may seek to use the Ring to overthrow Sauron & become new darklords themselves, which is Sauron's worst fear (hence the power of Mordor falling on Minas Tirith like a storm for this very reason, as told by Gandalf in the White Rider). Sauron knows (& he should do - he is the lord of the Ring afterall!), therefore, that he CAN be overthrown by a power such as Gandalf if the Ring is used against him, or otherwise Tolkein is not making much sense in his works & is contradicting himself to an extent - maybe a case of Tolkien juggling with his own ideas but not being explicit enough about them perhaps (hence this debate!). I believe the former to be the case, however, although I would not put Aragorn in the category - why could he be able to wield the Ring if Isildur could not? He has no great power of his own or the knowhow to be able to unlock the power of the Ring as far as I am concerned (& I bet someone will try & qoute this & comment on it with something like ''you are just stating your thoughts'' - the answer to that is, well so are you because you are only stating YOUR interpretations of the book & the Letters!!!). This thread was about whether Saruman was for or against Sauron. It seems that in the end there was no friendship between them, only a link to see what each other was up to, & how one could get information out of each other to achieve the same goal. I am a little suprised that Sauron even bothered with Saruman, as I would have thought he would have been too proud & ignorant, having great power & resources of destruction at his disposal. It just shows that Sauron was a legend in playing mind games to control the will of others. Last edited by Mansun; 08-16-2006 at 06:05 AM. |
|
08-16-2006, 06:32 PM | #55 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||
08-18-2006, 12:25 AM | #56 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
One thing Sauron probably did know - the Ring could be used to overthrow & replace him as Darklord of Mordor by another mighty power. Otherwise what was the point in going after Gondor in such a hurried fashion if the Ring could not be used against him? He bent is power towards Gondor for great fear that the Ring would be sent there to be wielded as a weapon against him. If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others. The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him. Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring. Last edited by Mansun; 08-18-2006 at 12:46 AM. |
|
08-18-2006, 06:48 AM | #57 | |||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, he makes clear that the Ring could be used against Sauron: Quote:
Quote:
To wield the Ring, would be to just carry it and use it against Sauron. I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron. This is what it appears Sauron feared the most, especially with Aragorn being Isildur's heir. He feared that Aragorn had the Ring and was coming with an army to overthrow him. This is also what Boromir and Sam had envisioned, 'armies would flock to their banner's' and especially Boromir it would give him the power to 'Command.' Sauron was defeated when he had the Ring, so I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else. But, to 'wield' the Ring wouldn't be the same as 'mastering' the Ring. I don't think 'wielding' the Ring would be breaking that bond between the Ring and Sauron. You are just using it as a weapon against him, not in fact mastering it's powers. So, to use the Ring against Sauron in this manner, Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
|||
08-18-2006, 08:41 AM | #58 | |||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
And the Ring was certainly eager to betray everybody else, why couldn't it betray one of them? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also… Quote:
B) This is another reason why the Wise didn’t consider trying this to be a viable alternative. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||||||
08-18-2006, 09:17 AM | #59 | ||||||||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
Going back to the famous Letter 246: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, long story short, I'm agreeing that the West had lacked the military prowess to overthrow Sauron (even if Aragorn had the ring). So, any sort of vision of rallying these grand armies was just the deceit of the Ring. And Sauron wasn't going to come out of Barad-dur anytime soon, so I doubt he was going to be slain as he was in the Last Alliance.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
||||||||
08-18-2006, 09:49 AM | #60 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
Last edited by Mansun; 08-18-2006 at 11:54 PM. |
|
08-19-2006, 08:58 AM | #61 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
I wonder if Gandalf was using what he (that is Gandalf) knew about what was happening. He knew that they were sending the Ring to destruction. However, Sauron didn’t know this and really didn’t know what they were doing. So certainly it would have been better for Sauron to spend all his time searching for the Ring because that was where the threat was coming from, but Sauron didn’t know that (which was a good thing).
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
08-19-2006, 10:43 AM | #62 |
Psyche of Prince Immortal
|
"The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend till my Enemy is no more, then my friend is my Enemy."
it was simply like that, if Gondor fell, then it will be between Saruman and Sauron.
__________________
Love doesn't blow up and get killed.
Last edited by Gil-Galad; 08-20-2006 at 11:37 AM. |
10-23-2006, 10:44 AM | #63 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8
|
I have a very much associated question.
Do you guys think that Saruman would have sought to integrate with Sauron and thus gain power under the rank-and-file system? Saruman seems to have pursued the ring vehemently in order to be all powerful and to dictate matters entirely throughout Middle Earth. Would Saruman with his own armies from his base in Isenguard have battled Sauron for power in ME? Is this to suggest that Saruman like Sauron could forge his own dark armies that would remain loyal to him, and fight the forces of Mordor? Thus pitting orc against orc. |
10-23-2006, 12:21 PM | #64 | ||||||||||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Raynor; 10-23-2006 at 12:25 PM. |
||||||||||||
11-06-2006, 11:00 PM | #65 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
"Saruman and the Ring" I hearby dub thee "Balrog wings"...
Now that the other Saruman thread has died down a bit...
Quote:
Ring: Hmmm...another dullard who thinks they can master me. What to do? I know! I'll pretend like they've mastered me and get their ego all blown out of proportion. My new "master" will fall all over itself (har, har "it"self, clever reference to part of the discussion in other thread ) to take me back to my Master. *time passes, battle is waged, Sauron makes beeline for new "ringlord"* Ring: DADDY!!!!!!! *BAM* new ringlord is jello Ring and Sauron: Boo-YAA!!!
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 11-06-2006 at 11:10 PM. |
|
11-07-2006, 12:51 AM | #66 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-07-2006, 08:20 AM | #67 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|||
11-07-2006, 12:04 PM | #68 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
I don't think that sheer might is what ultimately defines Tolkien's world, quite the contrary case can be made:
Quote:
I think that we can only declare the west as military incapable against Sauron, when we find that the following are not synchronized in their favor: - the period it requires them to build an empire, with the help of the One Ring, necessary to contend Sauron - when they actually get the One Ring - when is Sauron powerful enough to attack them first It can even be argued that the gathering of strength can be hastened by claiming soldiers who obey Sauron's power; Tolkien noted that the nazgul wouldn't be wholly invulnerable to the power of an enemy ringlord, even in the case of Frodo; I would guess that the hosts of Mordor would too be vulnerable to its influence, seeing that they already are driven forth by Sauron's power. The conclusion I would draw is that not all the elements are known, so our estimates are rather inexact; in most, if not all, cases, some timelines favor the the victory of the west, some the victory of Sauron, but the very story of LotR shows us that no outcome is set in stone. How powerful is Sauron in direct confrontation? Very powerful, most likely, but he is not the same Sauron of the second age. He had expended energy in making himself a new body and in "long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors" - this being also the factors of the diminishing of Melkor's power, who, even he, at the end of the first age, feared of being hurt. I believe that at the end of the third age, Sauron can be defeated in a direct battle. |
|
11-07-2006, 05:20 PM | #69 | ||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
||
11-07-2006, 05:40 PM | #70 | ||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The orcs, I have to admit, I’m not sure about. On the whole I’m inclined to think they would also continue to follow Sauron for similar reasons to the Men. Whether they could actually attempt to actively harm the new ringlord I think is largely irrelevant. All the orcs would be there for is to help kill the enemy soldiers. Sauron would deal with the new ringlord. Quote:
But regardless of this, this little debate is a waste of time. It was relentlessly stated in the books over and over from the time of the Council of Elrond that the West could not hope to defeat Sauron militarily. The West also utterly lacked the capacity to launch effective offensive actions against Sauron, that in itself is very telling. I find that your argument has no foundation. Quote:
I don't know what else there is to say about this.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||||||
11-08-2006, 06:22 AM | #71 | |||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
- when would Sauron be fully prepared to attack them - what period of time they needed to build their armies with the help of the one ring, in order to defeat Sauron - what is the time they got the ring As far as I know, at least the second factor is down to speculation, but I would welcome your suggestions for these. We know that Sauron wasn’t ready to fully attack the ringlord-less west at the time of the Pellenor Fields, in 15th of march, 3019. When would he be fully prepared to attack a ringlord? I don’t know. As to the third factor, that is simply down to an agreement; the sooner they got it, the quicker they would proceed to building forces, with more motivation, and, possibly, with more efficiency. Also, the sooner they would build their forces, the weaker Sauron would be. As I said, some timelines (placing the appearance the ringlord sooner in the third age) would favor the west, some would favor Sauron (placing said event later) in the third age); if the ringlord would appear only around the time of the council of Elrond or the likes, in 3018, he/she would have a serious handicap. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
11-08-2006, 03:25 PM | #72 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
And exactly how militarily incapable do you think Sauron was during the Third Age? He successfully (and repeatedly) instigated mass invasions against his enemies from Angmar, in 1851 with the Wainriders, and in 2000 the Nazgul seized Minas Ithil. This all happened before the Ring was fished out of the bottom of the river and before he established himself in Mordor. Arnor was gone and Gondor was already weakening. The West’s military incapacity was something of long standing. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||||
11-08-2006, 05:24 PM | #73 | ||||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Between the coming of Sauron to Dol Gudur in 1100 and some years before Pelennor Fields there is just speculation, and perhaps it is just better to agree to disagree since we all put our arguments forth and I kinda dislike the tone of the discussion. |
||||||
11-08-2006, 08:20 PM | #74 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
A personal confrontation between Sauron and the new ringlord is what I have been talking about the whole time. In the battle between Sauron and the ringlord the armies would engage and play tremendous havoc with each other. In the confusion, Sauron would storm up to the pretender and personally settle matters with them.
Quote:
As an aside, one begins to wonder where Sauron kept his orcs during his period of exile. He apparently had some sort of dwelling in eastern Middle-earth, which is probably a likely candidate. Truly, eastern Middle-earth must have had some interesting tales to tell about itself.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
11-08-2006, 09:01 PM | #75 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
|
Now, I would not want to ruin this spectacular debate with a bit of speculation (and no irony there, you guys are interesting to read) but are we forgetting one little detail?
Kuruharan you state that Sauron's armies would defeat the Ringlord's but... when Samwise a hobbit, and not the greatest one at that, was clutching the ring, Snaga (I believe it was him the orc who was running down the stairs) saw him as a huge, threatening figure. How would the other minions of Sauron see a more powerful ringlord actively using the ring? I don't know about being able to gather enough troops for this difference to be meaningful, but if the ringlord had enough time to build up a strong enough army, and possibly choose the terrain where the fight would take place (after all, waiting only benefits the new ringlord, thus odds are Sauron would not wait for too long before launching his attack) it is possible that his army would have defeated Sauron's. Now, in this scenario there is the issue of what would happen if Sauron himself decided to show up for the party. That'd be an interesting scenario, as I'm sure Sauron's minions fear him twice as much as they'd fear the ringlord... what would happen then? I do not know, but the way I interpret Tolkien's comment is that, in a one-on-one battle, Sauron would win against all save perhaps Gandalf. At the same time, the characters in the book are talking about another scenario, what would happen if a strong-enough ringlord decided to battle his armies against Sauron's? And keep in mind that none of the characters talk about certainty... so perhaps it is possible for them to defeat Sauron's armies, and effectively usurp Sauron's place (although sooner or later Sauron would arise again since the ring was still both existant and "unmastered")* but only Gandalf could defeat Sauron himself. *Taking into account the previous comment that mastering the ring would be to break the link between it and Sauron, something only Gandalf could have done. This is unlike wielding, which would be using it without achieving mastery. Just my cent and a half (short of two cents)
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
11-09-2006, 08:34 AM | #76 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
|
Quote:
As far as what would happen on the field, questions about terrain etc. are unanswerable unless one wanted to construct scenarios that would obviously be non-canonical in the extreme (even though it would probably be interesting). However, it must be remembered that Sauron was far from strategically incompetent, as his performance showed. He was defeated at the Pelennor Fields because the enemy achieved a tactical and strategic masterstroke in simultaneously robbing him of his reinforcements and getting in the rear of his army. This would cause the defeat of almost any army. In the battle with the new Ringlord I think that Sauron and the new Ringlord would have been using their respective armies for two different purposes. The new Ringlord would have used his/her army to try and defeat Sauron. Sauron would have used his army to try and pin down the enemy so he could go take back what was his. Two different purposes, but put both of them together and it favors Sauron getting what he wanted.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
11-11-2006, 01:21 AM | #77 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
There is another element that might be interesting to this discussion: Quote:
|
||
10-11-2007, 01:16 PM | #78 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Was Saruman aware that the fellowship may consider detroying the Ring, given that Gandalf had refused him the chance of using it? If Gandalf would not wield it, then what may Saruman expect them to do with the Ring? Just take it somewhere for safe keeping? He may have thought the same as Sauron, that the Ring Bearer was on his wasy to Minas Tirith. But who then had the strength & power to wield it there? Denethor?
|
10-11-2007, 01:21 PM | #79 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
10-11-2007, 02:40 PM | #80 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
The point I was making was the fact that Saruman may have thought the Fellowship were upto something else, since they had refused to wield the Ring in the past. Saruman new the minds of the Wise better than many, unlike Sauron. |
|
|
|