When You Are Oppressed, Or Ten Weighty Reasons for Teenagers and Their Parents

[Amanaduial the archer]

(- hey, mom (dad, uncle, yer honour, reverend Brown), I've found the candy which is tasty and wholesome!
- Can't be, there is no wholesome candies!
- But look, here, look at the list of its properties which are good for you
- What list? Lemme see, um, er, yes, but is it, really?
- And the list is approved of by Co7A, who is parent and teacher herself, and this H-I chap who made it is only 31.3% geek and works in a bank, and is a swimmer and has a Master's degree (I know I'm vain, but it for the sake of the Case ) And I've already done my homework, made 10 pull-ups on the bar out there and focused on Mr Grey's car, which is 200 yards away for the whole of ten minutes!
- Allright, since it is so wholesome, er, um, I suppose you may have it...)

Ah, but amusing though that arguement is, Heren, it actually doesn't strengthen the case for some parents. For example, about a year and a half ago, when I was in a particularly good mood at the Downs (just over a year and a half actually - January '03?), and so Mother went through the mandatory dangers-of-the-internet-there-are-all-sorts-of-people-out-there talk. I decided not to mention that yes, I know that, a helluva lot of them go to my school, and instead took the tack that those of them who I talk to in PM or email knew only what I disclosed, and that was very little; and that I knew bits and pieces about them. When The Suspicious Parent asked what sort of things, I then went on to say that most lived in America (true of the people I talked to at the time) and a few ages.

The Parent was shocked - I was talking to people 'somewhat older' than myself. She asked in horror how did I know they didn't fit into the category of dangers-of-the-internet-there-are-all-sorts-of-people-out-there, and in my defence I said no! I mean, for example, one of them is an international lawyer! (There, I just gave away the member's identity, didn't I? )

Oddly, I don't think this helped matters. You see, The Suspicious Parent is a strange species: disclose information meant to reassure her, and what she actually hears is that you have disclosed the same sort of information and more to All Sorts on the internet. Hrm. And this does make things rather difficult. What's more, I don't like my parents to come on the forum - not for any sort of reason against you, dear readers, simply because I don't like them reading my writing - I get seriously embarassed. This doesn't exactly look good to The Suspicious Parent, I suppose...

Still, as yet, I have only been banned once, and that was from the internet in general. It was just after my parents got the internet bill *winces* But they have no quarrel with an alleged Tolkien forum which I use primarily for writing: I have always liked creative writing, and I think the Downs may, yes, have helped. The fundamental issue is, and always will be, trust.

[Mithalwen]

A lot of it is to do with the fact that most people are unable to evaluate risk accurately. I mean there is a perception that the big wide world is an especially dangerous place for women and children to venture into alone but in fact, the majority children who are murdered or abused are victims of their own parents, women are usually the victim of their husbands/boyfriend. The people most likely to be murdered by strangers are young men.

And if parents think that the Downs is really a problem ..they really have a strange worldview... I mean ... my brain has been more stretched here that it has anywhere since leaving uni...and perhaps in some respects more than at uni!. And to be exposed to what can be post-grad level discussion at schoolage ...surely can only be positive.... or maybe parents get suspicious because it seems impossible that teenagers could ENJOY learning....

That said..there are some very odd people out there .... on a rare visit to an (innocuous) chat room it took all of 3 seconds to encounter a sleazoid creep...

But, I sometimes get the feeling that there is a disproportionate fear because it was the internet - A couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to travel to Australia and NZ. Now, I had been talking to someone on a tennis site for 3 years and she lived near my family in Melbourne so we arranged to meet (in a bar, in the afternoon)..... and even though I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough to take care of my self - my Aussie family were completely paranoid ......"You mean you don't know her surname, or address.....blah blah blah".( Iand that was just meeting another girl of the same age).. but when I was solo travelling in NZ I would go for meals with other lone travellers who just happened to be travelling on the same bus / staying at the same hostel judging merely on appearance....
This didn't give the Aussie rellies the vapours at all......

Actually the priniciples for lone travelling (which was what I did to worry my parents before the internet was widespread lol ) could be apply just as well to the net ..... Be prepared, aware of the potential dangers, don't stray in to areas you know to be dangerous and prepare strategies to get out of dangerous situations you may fall into by chance. And then having minimised the risks enjoy the journey!!

[HerenIstarion]

Be prepared, aware of the potential dangers, don't stray in to areas you know to be dangerous and prepare strategies to get out of dangerous situations you may fall into by chance. And then having minimised the risks enjoy the journey!!

I have a feeling that applies to life in general, not Internet or journeying only . Good piece of advice, it is, sounds almost Jerome K. Jerome rendered into plain speech, without allegory of boats and rivers, kudos!

The Suspicious Parent is a strange species

Our parleys are with that kind of species, for the most part, I believe, as Unsuspicious Parent does not ban child's activities. As before, my advise would be - let them read printable version of current thread. There is almost no issue wich can not be resolved with a good ole' discussion of it [*Unless the issue in question is the conversation of two males along the lines of - 'I'm strong enough to beat the s**t out of you' - that kind of debate is founded on northern tradition of heroic boasting and can not be resolved with the means of greek philosophy and debate] You can cut out your own post, as SP may get hurt a bit at the title, I expect. Or maybe not, as SP may grow more aware of the situation, and reflect why such a 'titulage' may have been earned or unearned

But I would be glad if people like Child or mark or akhtene made more of appearance on this here thread, as, though I'm no longer a child, I'm not a parent either, so my position may be biased a bit. Let us hear more from the other side, eh?

[Encaitare]

Fortunately, my parents are pretty cool. I work very hard in school (too much AP homework! ) so they let me do pretty much whatever I like to relax when I do have free time... and that time is, of course, spent online. Also fortunately, our internet fee is the fixed monthly rate = unlimited access! Yay! My dad is a pretty computer-savvy guy, so he doesn't mind me talking here. He just doesn't like me to go on the AOL chats, because that is where you get the creeps who want to "cyber," etc. I've never been not allowed to use the internet, lucky for me. I am quite wary of talking to strangers outside the Downs, through IMs and such, but I sometimes do if I have corresponded with the person before, or know they're wro they say they are.

The great thing about LotR and the Downs and all those wonderful creations is that it probably has served to keep me out of trouble. My parents did such a gret job of instilling a conscience in me that I feel awful if I lie to them and it comes out anyway. I've always been a geek/dork type too... when I was 6 I could tell you the name of almost every dinosaur that ever existed and whether it was from the Cretaceous or Jurassic or Triassic Period and all that. I told off a teacher once or twice for giving misinformation I'm not much of a party type... I really prefer to stay home and read or write.

So that's my fun story!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Try number two, after my initial loooong post got deleted by my early morning I'm-late-for-work rush...

My parents did such a great job of instilling a conscience in me that I feel awful if I lie to them and it comes out anyway. I've always been a geek/dork type too... when I was 6 I could tell you the name of almost every dinosaur that ever existed and whether it was from the Cretaceous or Jurassic or Triassic Period and all that. I told off a teacher once or twice for giving misinformation I'm not much of a party type... I really prefer to stay home and read or write

Kindred spirits, Encai? I am incapable of lying to my parents. Well, actually to rephrase, I can lie all I want, but they know when I'm doing it. Although I pride myself that if I'm supposed to keep my trap shut, they may know I'm lying, just have no clue what about. I've currently got the labels geek, nerd, dork, girly, sXe, and most recently, punk. I suppose that comes from my most recent erm... experiment, but I try to avoid labels. I do pride myself on nerd and sXe though... eh... my point is, when I was about 6, I was an avid reader and was also running around spouting out pointless information on dinosaurs, animals, and random other stuff. I've been known to correct teachers, and I can't understand why they get upset. I love when people correct me, because (A) it shows that they know their stuff, (B) it means I won't get it wrong again, and (C) it means they're paying attention.

My on topic point, however, is that, in my case, the internet issue is one of trust. My parents let me roam free on the internet because they trust that I won't do anything stupid. I like that trust, and so I won't break it.

Now if they were constantly suspicious and overbearing? I'd tell them less than if they just let me come to them. And if they checked the history or anything on me? That's entirely too much like invading my privacy, so I would, without question, leave them a few 'interesting' sites to run across just to blow their minds. Nothing I'd visit on my own, just sheer accidents of typos, or stuff that they'd certainly object to. It's like the kid who starts smoking weed because people already think he does. "Well if they're already thinking this, I may as well give them good reason to." That sort of thought process, only rather than actually visiting the sites, I'd just plant the weblinks here and there. (There should be an evil smily inserted right about here.)

Fea

[Encaitare]

Now if they were constantly suspicious and overbearing? I'd tell them less than if they just let me come to them. And if they checked the history or anything on me? That's entirely too much like invading my privacy, so I would, without question, leave them a few 'interesting' sites to run across just to blow their minds.

I agree, I think it's the fact that they trust me which makes me more responsible and less sneaky. Yes, I am considered to be "sXe" but I don't mind... a few friends have observed (on 4/20, quite fittingly) that they can't imagine me high or anything, probably because I'm messed up enough as is... I've also been told by someone that she thought I was a major prude; fortunately she said she was wrong!

And about being corrected, I feel the same way. If someone bothers to correct you, it shows at least they care enough to point it out. Plus, then you won't make the same mistake again... someone probably will point it out at some time, and possibly not so nicely either. I guess teachers don't like being told they're wrong by students who they think are so dumb and irresponsible...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I guess teachers don't like being told they're wrong by students who they think are so dumb and irresponsible...

As a former teacher ... it is usually more that you are having enough trouble trying to control a class who have already assessed you and found you wanting in all departments without being to made to look like an idiot onthe one thing you generally are in control of ie subject knowledge.... believe me I was a "good" student and after I started teaching I just wanted to grovel for every time I was a "smart alec" ..... teachers are contrary to popular belief human..... and have human feelings and failings .......... oh and if you ever spot one in a supermarket don't feel obliged to scream "that's my French teacher" with the modulation you might give to screaming "that's an alien from the planet Zog" .... . Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yes, I am considered to be "sXe" but I don't mind... a few friends have observed (on 4/20, quite fittingly) that they can't imagine me high or anything, probably because I'm messed up enough as is...

Try being born at 4:20 PM. I NEVER should have let that one slip. One of my science classes in sophomore year (I took two courses that year because I like science and had too much free time on my hands) tried their absolute hardest to get me to get drunk with them. It was a year-long fiasco cumulating in me flipping out at them all, saying that they'd have to kill me, drag my corpse to the party, and funnel alcohol down my dead throat before it would happen.

it is usually more that you are having enough trouble trying to control a class who have already assessed you and found you wanting in all departments without being to made to look like an idiot onthe one thing you generally are in control of ie subject knowledge....

Oh my... it never occured to me, although you may not believe it. I actually feel really bad now... Like I said, I like to be proven wrong, because it means that I'm now correct, and that at least one person is paying attention. As for my asking tough questions... it's not to make the teacher look like a fool, its usually far more innocent than that. I just want to know, and since teachers (humans though they are, I suppose) are, in my occasionally humble opinion, the most brilliant people alive (why else would they be spreading the knowlege?), I usually assume that they'll know the answers, if anyone will.

oh and if you ever spot one in a supermarket don't feel obliged to scream "that's my French teacher" with the modulation you might give to screaming "that's an alien from the planet Zog" .... .

What if your French teacher just happens to be an alien from the planet Zog? Is it okay to scream the truth in that instance? All kidding aside, the only time I ever mention if someone is my teacher is if I like the person (as a person, or as a teacher, although I am aware that teachers are real people!). If I don't like the teacher and equate him with a Zoggian alien? That's when I turn and subtly melt into the crowd before said Zoggian sees me and I'm forced to politely converse with someone I don't like but have to deal with on a regular basis. I'd rather test out my casual disappearing skills at that point.

Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause....

I'm going into teaching, and already have a little experience, for all that I'm only 17. I like it, but I'd have to say ages 12 and under are a LOT more exhausting than adolescents.

You know, if any of your parents try to ban you from here, just use this line: "Yeah, Mom/Dad, but just look at all the stuff Fea and Encai just learned about the appropriate time to correct a teacher! Where else are they gonna learn that?"

Fea

[Encaitare]

Try being born at 4:20 PM. I NEVER should have let that one slip.

Oh, Fea, I can only imagine.

Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause....

Actually, Mith, I want to be a teacher! Music education all the way. And don't mistake me; some of my teachers are the coolest, nicest, and funniest people I know. I do see your point, though.

[The Saucepan Man]

Interesting thread, this.

I sometimes wonder how my parents would have felt about me being on the internet, had it been around when I was a kid. I suspect that my mother would have been extremely suspicious of it, given that she was a confirmed technophobe (she never even got the hang of programming the video recorder). In contrast, many parents these days, and certainly in the not too distant future, will have used the internet frequently themselves and therefore be able to take a sensible approach towards their children's use of it. As others have said, it is little different from real life - one simply needs to exercise a little common sense regarding the disclosure of personal details etc and it's totally safe. Indeed, it's clearly a lot safer way of meeting total strangers than in real life, given that those that you are speaking to are not physically present.

My own children are still too young to start surfing the web or joining forums. When they are a little older, though, I would personally have no reservations about them frequenting sites such as this. In fact, I hope that I will be able to trust them to use the internet with limited (parental) restrictions, although that will depend on me being able to trust them to use it safely and sensibly. Which in turn depends upon my wife and I properly educating them in this regard, plus their own inclination to behave responsibily. Well, we shall see ...

I agree with those who have pointed out that one should make sure of discharging real life obligations (homework, work, chores etc) before rewarding oneself with a Downs session. Although I will have to clean up my own act before preaching to my children on this, since there are times when I have spent far too much time here. Having said that, the demands of family, work etc clearly always come first for me (as my absence for most of the previous month testifies).

As for the comments made concerning parties, alcohol etc, I do feel some slight alarm at some of the more extreme positions that have been taken here. However enjoyable (and, in some respects, educational) the Downs might be, it can, to my mind, never match up to real life interaction. I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life. You really don't have to go wild to have a good time, you know. As HerenIstarion says, most things are good in moderation (there goes Saucepan not practicing what he preaches again, as he works his way through a fine bottle of wine ).

One final (off-topic) thought. I find it amazing how much us Downers seem to share interests in common (in addition to Tolkien of course). Like Enca and Feanor, I was a complete dinosaur nerd in my younger years. By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist, which was a never-ending source of confusion for those who asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. (Alas that I did not follow my childhood inclination.) And it's not just dinosaurs either. The Beatles' music and Monty Python both seem to present a common a link between many Downers too. Perhaps there is some explanation for a link between these things and Tolkien's works ...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life.

No way! I wouldn't let those people affect what I want to do. I go out with friends, I spend time with family, I have a great job and help teach at school (ie: one on one work with students and whatnot). I even do a little extreme behavior of my own... but nothing that's going to hurt anyone, unless of course my grandmother has a coronary when she sees my hair tomorrow... (I put orange streaks in last night, and they AREN'T temporary). I hope she doesn't, of course... not too likely.

Like Enca and Feanor, I was a complete dinosaur nerd in my younger years. By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist, which was a never-ending source of confusion for those who asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.

Doesn't this sound familiar.... you see, it was mostly my brothers and Jurassic Park that got me into dinosaurs. It trailed off for a few years, but when I got into Geology and read a book on rocks front to back and discovered that the Spinosaurus egypticus was discovered by an amateur... let's just say that my dino-interest got renewed.

And it's not just dinosaurs either. The Beatles' music and Monty Python both seem to present a common a link between many Downers too. Perhaps there is some explanation for a link between these things and Tolkien's works ...

Why not start a thread on it, Saucie? You've listed Beatles' music (not my taste, for the most part, but still good), Monty Python (much to my taste), dinosaurs... what about shared activities, like Eomer-of-the-Rohirrim-stalking (his ego is fun to cuddle )? It seems like we share not only interests, but ways of persuing them. I'd be interested to see what other connexions we've all got.

Fea

[Encaitare]

I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life.

Nah, I have a healthy social life. Most of my friends are complete dorks like me, so we're all dorky together. I just don't mind spending a lot of my time alone; I'm absolutely insane when I'm with my friends but I can't really open up around those I don't know too well. And as Fea said, I am not unknown to do crazy things.

By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist

As did I! Other notions I had was that I was going to be a writer, an artist, and a "world explorer" like they used to do back when there was a "New World" to be found. I was not quite aware when I was 6 or so that just about everywhere had been discovered already.

Monty Python is truly a wonderful thing. And as for the Beatles... well, they did want to do a LotR movie, right? I must say I'm glad they didn't..

[HerenIstarion]

er, my excuses, any buddy wanted to be a truck driver or sailor? Just would be nice ter know, yer honours, would be. Just I really wanted to be one or either, or both together...

Let us leave trucks and go back to the track, though. Just watched some movie starring Keanu Reaves - Johny Mnemonic was the name, I believe

What the point of this post is, or would have been if I haven't had so much work on my hands right now to make it more like a post than short remark - the places like this (i.e. BD) will help us avoid turning human society into internet horror they've pictured in the movie.

PS. Mithalwen, I know what you talk about, . My experience may have been even worse, as I was only slightly older than my students for one, and, worst of all, we all lived in the same neighbourhood, which in Georgia is like what you get in the South of Italy or on Sicily - everybody knows everybody and is 'in league' against any kind of authority. Hence, my authority as a teacher equalled zero, though I have had some influence as a pal. But for my spectacles, I may have had more success, but stern behavioral pattern is not applicable when carried out by bespectacled youngster who dislikes shouting and have been seen about carrying a violin!. Horror, horror, playing violon is not a thing we real men do! Alas for my pedagogical career.

cheers

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

any buddy wanted to be a truck driver or sailor?

Guilty. Sailor indeed... I read the Dragonsong trilogy when it first came out and *poof!* wanted to live in a giant cave village full of fishermen, impressionable youth that I am. Mind you, those books also made me want to Impress a Dragon...

Hence, my authority as a teacher equalled zero, though I have had some influence as a pal.

I was supposed to go job shadowing for a class in school this year. I chose to shadow an art teacher (as that IS what I'd like to be), but when my teacher started arranging stuff... let's just say I wasn't particularly comfortable with some of the possibilities. One: a local highschool where over half of my extended family attends. Also attending that particular school are some kids that I just DO. NOT. LIKE. They are arrogant little.... Fea trails off into unintelligible muttering about kids who are a gang in everything but the name and can't even FIGHT fairly. Two: a local college (!) that not only does my eldest brother attend, but I know almost all of his friends there, and would be certain to have at least one of them in any classes I was in. It is my experience that kids do NOT like authority figures that are the same age, or god forbid, younger, than them. So Heren, you had kids you know that were younger than you... I would have had kids I know that were older than me, and/or related to me and/or don't much like me and would be willing to reek all sorts of havoc anywhere that I was supposed to being showing my responisible, professional self. I got my teacher to let me go to a middle school where I didn't know anyone but a cop.

My this thread has gotten off topic... unless we can convince parents to let us stay on The 'Downs soley because of educational/career discussions...

Fea

[the phantom]

My experience may have been even worse, as I was only slightly older than my students

It is my experience that kids do NOT like authority figures that are the same age, or god forbid, younger, than them

I've been doing tutoring as a job or as volunteer work for six years now and I have discovered that (around these parts anyway) the age of the kid matters more than my age.

For these past six years it's been the same- kids 7 and under do what I tell them, kids 8-10 need to be told more than once, kids 11-13 are nearly impossible to deal with, kids 14-15 are similar to 8-10 years olds, and kids 16 and older do what I tell them (just like kids 7 and under).

I know it seems weird but that's how it has always been for me. 11-13 year olds are always the worst but once they get old enough they don't mind if you're close to their age as long as you aren't a jerk or something. My friends that are around my age do what I tell them much quicker than the junior high students I tutor.

[Encaitare]

I can see how that would be. Around 11-13 I think nearly everyone feels they have something to prove, and it suddenly becomes cool to rebel. Then when people develop personalities they're comfortable with, they become more managable. It also depends on the group -- some kids are just disobedient, and others will listen to the teacher in a second. This is true in my school all the time, sometimes I genuinely pity the teachers. Interest in the topic is a definite factor too.

I'd like to be a teacher giving private music lessons if I can, so then at least I'd know my students would be interested.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, I made a mistake, giving you all a bad example to follow my lead and thus stray from the main route of this thread Confiteor!

But things can be undone

There is another way, I believe, which just dawned on me (pun, pun) whilst reading about pedagogical expericences and observations mentioned. As far as I know, Tolkien is studied in English and US schools at some grade as part the English classes. What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?

cheers

[Bêthberry]

Tolkien is studied in English and US schools at some grade as part the English classes. What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?

Not simply reading, please, my cheery HerenIstarion. Please point out to anxious parents that we have extensively developed and supervised role playing forums which maintain the strictest standards of canonicity (oh dear, that word again) and integrity in writing. Their children can develop both their imagination and their writing skills. And we expect proper English (or improper American) spelling. We are more fun than a spelling bee!

Parents might be particularly happy that we don't allow slash and are a PG 13 site. (Well, assuming that parents would object to slash,...)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

... not to mention the fact that we hold good manners in high esteem, something that should be much appreciated by parents! No flaming or rudeness allowed here. (Yes, we have our Rules, set up by the Chief, but his name's not Lotho! )

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?

Brilliant suggestion. I tried to get the 'Downs involved in my Tril class last year (LotR Trilogy class...), but my teacher wouldn't take me seriously.

No flaming or rudeness allowed here.

Too true. Parents should appreciate the fact that in my *quick thinking* year and a half on this site, I've come across perhaps two things that offended me, and both were dealt with very quickly by our Higher Ups. How many other web-based forums can boast the same? Most others fly off-topic in the second post of a thread, never to return again. So besides learning all of the things previously listed, we 'Downers learn to stick to the task presented. And I might add, isn't that one of the things parents like kids in school to know how to do?

Fea

PS: sorry about my involvement in the off-topicness of this thread. I shall delete my posts if it be so desired.

[Encaitare]

I wish the Downs were considered supplementary for schoolwork, because that is a truly awesome idea. Unfortunately we're don't study Tolkien in school so there would be no such circumstance. It would be cool if there were boards like this for other books.

Parents might be particularly happy that we don't allow slash and are a PG 13 site. (Well, assuming that parents would object to slash,...)

I explained slash to my mom, and she just sort of nodded and was all, "Oh, that's... nice." My poor mother; she's so patient with me and my insane friends.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I go out with friends, I spend time with family, I have a great job and help teach at school ...

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Nah, I have a healthy social life.

I did not mean to suggest that you didn't, and I had no one in particular in mind. I was just slightly concerned by some of the comments suggesting that people would far rather spend all day on the internet than go out socialising in the real world. As I see it, places like the Downs should be regarded as a supplement to, rather than a replacement for, real life interaction. That's certainly how I intend to approach it with my children when they become old enough to be interested in these kind of things.

Of course, I can talk. But then I'm a father of two young children, so I'm not supposed to have any kind of a social life.

As for teaching, I was completely put off it as a career choice when I saw how we treated our teachers at school aged 14 to 15.

I was actually introduced to The Hobbit at school, and I think that it makes ideal reading for 8 to 10 year olds as it provides great scope to exercise the imagination. I don't think that LotR was quite considered serious or "academic" enough at my school for serious study by older English students, although I would certainly consider it sufficiently so. As has been suggested, some of the discussions that go on here on the Downs can testify to that! And those of us who were into fantasy literature, Dungeons and Dragons, wargaming and the like did have a rather "dorky" reputation with the "cool brigade", so I doubt that LotR would have gone down too well with them. Then again, we did do some really good books for English literature at O-level and A-level (as the exams were called when I was at school, back when the world was young). 1984, Wuthering Heights and A Farewell to Arms were three books that I studied that I particularly enjoyed. And it seems to me that LotR offers as much, if not more, scope for serious study as these books. As for length, well I had to read Great Expectations for O-level, although I read the abridged version having left it to the final few days of the holiday. Then again, I would plead a natural allergy to Dickens (although I still got an A grade for my essay ).

[Mithalwen]

I too have a natural allergy to Dickens but I forced myself to read 50 pages of "Our Mutual Friend" each morning when I woke, and another fifty before I slept in order to complete it for the start of Upper Sixth. I called it my penance and never read another Dickens until I had to do Bleak House for my degree. the best I can say of him is that having slogged through the first 700 pages, the last 200 were relatively diverting. Irritatingly I seem not to be able to escape him. I was given the complete works which are (apart fromBH) unread and take up an obscene amount of precious shelf space. I lived around the corner form his birthplace for a while and later across the bay from Bleak House. I left town at festival time.

Since we are getting bizarrely competitive about teaching careers I will take the gloves off.

At my interview I was told that the person I was replacing had gone off sick. On my first day, I found out she had had her face smashed in by a 12 year old pupil.
I should have walked then and there but I stuck it out. I was sworn at, assaulted and sexually harrassed. My property was stolen. My desk and door handle were covered with spit and other bodily substances. My office door was kicked in. Someone tried to set fire to my hair. This is in addition to the usual living hell of the class room and still trying to do your best for extremely damaged children. Oh yes, I was also stitched up by the management as a scapegoat for the school inspectors.

So unless you started crying at 4 o'clock on Sunday afternoon because there was school again the next day, seriously considered slashing your wrists as a preferable alternative and are still not entirely free of the repercussions seven years later, then no your experiences were probably not worse

BTW Apart from having limited time ot cover such a long book, cost might also be a factor in not teaching LOTR. Full price each volume is six or seven pounds and at least double that for the one volume version. That will make a big dent in a dsepartmental budget when you can get older "classics" for a fraction of that .

[tar-ancalime]

As for length, well I had to read Great Expectations for O-level, although I read the abridged version having left it to the final few days of the holiday.

Yeah, I was supposed to read that too, in the ninth grade. As I recall, I "abridged" it for myself: I read the first 50 pages and the last 50 pages.

Which brings me back to the thread topic: if it's so easy to avoid reading for school (and yes, still make good grades), isn't it encouraging for parents to know that their teenagers are reading and discussing literature in their free time?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oooh... Poor Mith! You win! Where in the world could you possibly be teaching where it could be that horrible? It sounds to me like (apart from a lot of other things) they need a bit of Tolkien in their lives!

Fea

[Encaitare]

Wow, Mith, that's terrible. My sincerest sympathies! Were you working at a "regular" school or one for "troubled" individuals?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Well then, Mith, I think you have yourself a dire problem there!
It is events of that sort that lead me to make a T-Shirt that said "Death to the none discriminated against", Being one of the few Tolkien fans in my school, I am discriminated against, so I like to make them think about how they would feel about it... However, mostly it results in my loss of limbs.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I belive we've gotten completely off-track. Let's get it 100% back onto the topic or I'll need to close this thread.

[Mithalwen]

Encaitare: In the light of the above warning I deleted my answer - if you didn't read it and are interested PM me.

One "problem" with Tolkien, which might concern parents who don't generally disapprove, and actually concerns me about my own reading / online habits is just how absorbing it is.

I have a stack of books that interested me enough to buy them, lurking unread and I do have other interests but Tolkien seems to absorb the vast majority of my reading and my online time. I remember that after I first finished LOTR and the Sil, I found "single" volume novels unsatisfying. The only thing I really remember giving me anything like as much pleasure was "the Forsyte Chronicles" All nine novels and a collection of short stories. I don't think it waas merely an escapist response to adolescence since I had read and reread the Narnia books at primary school (though the affection for them hasn't lingered to anything like the same extent.

I can imagine that while parents want their children to read - reading nothing but one series of books could be a worrry. But there are far worse things (I tell myself firmly as I put down that Booker listed tome infavour of UT ...)

[Encaitare]

Mith-- I did read it, but didn't respond because of the warning. I'm sorry you had to go through all that.

But back on topic! I too have found myself being much more choosy in what I read, looking for books with more depth than the standard novel has. I'm currently reading "Dune" and that's living up to my expectations pretty well. It's especially affected my writing, since I would love to write fantasy but fear that I can't live up to my own high expectations.

LotR is absorbing, to say the very least. It's a huge part of my life, and my parents do get somewhat irritated at me for making constant references to it. (My dad thinks the name "Frodo" is the funniest thing ever, which I don't get, but to each his own.) But while complete obsession could be worrying, I would think that parents would consider their child's desire to delve deeper into a work to be a good thing. (Just my view. Since I'm not a parent, I could be completely wrong.) It shows a great interest in literature, and if the child makes it into HoME or similar books, an interest in the writing process. This would also depend on the parents' desires for their child: some parents don't want their children to go into the arts because it often doesn't make much money. Therefore the deep interest in fantasy literature could be seen as a waste of time.

I suppose it depends on the parent, though.

[Saurreg]

I am a good example of someone who has benefitted through my stay here at the BD forums.

English is not my mother tongue and from where I come from, there is an alarming drop in the standard of spoken and written English due to a blizzare fusion of eastern and western pop cultures, and an ever pertaining educational syllabus that do this wonderful language little justice by snuffling creative thinking and expression. Despite recent adjustments in the curicculum, the problem will continue to expand and worsen.

I may be able to write a good technical report or give a passable oral presentation based on academic researches, but my ability to conversate and write normal everyday English is very limited. Therefore I take every visit to the BD as a extra-curricular learning opportunity to brush up on my writing skills and also to familiarise myself with the speaking standards of English speakers world-wide.

And I'm not ashamed to say that much of what I've learned, I learned from forum users very much younger than myself, but far more profficent in the language.

[Mithalwen]

You are in Singapore? Amongst my LOTR film memorabilia is a Singaporean film magazine sent by a friend from another board. It is amazing how it appeals to so many people across the world. Anyway as we have said before - one of the nice things about the downs is that age is irrelevant as well as nationality. As an older, native speaker, I am frequently astounded by the level of English of many younger non-native speakers.... especially when it turns out that English isn't their speciality.

Many of my French friends learnt their English from pop music - but, it may be my age (that at which new pop music has largely turned into an indistinct burble, and I have, clearly, turned into my father....) but I would think that this forum would certainly expose you to better English ....