Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[Urwen]

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

Urwen. Ever since you answered "Feanor is empty-headed!!!!!!" to my sardonical reply on Olwe's shortcomings,
I believed that you were being purposefully childish for a joke. Now I am not so sure. Please laugh and tell us that you were having fun at our expense.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise

FIRSTBORN DAUGHTER. Excuse us if we were not aware that Turin was a GIRL. And YOU accuse NERWEN of ignorance? +chokes+
.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!

I'd assume the text is referring to Lalaith as the first–born daughter rather than the eldest child– although its possible that at the time he wrote this Tolkien did intend her to be the eldest, as he was in the habit of reworking his "Legendarium" and shifting around the details in just this way.*

Anyway, the editor (Christopher Tolkien) seems to think it's about Lalaith:

This brief passage, scribbled on the back of an old gas bill and subsequently used to line the drawer in which my father kept his socks, contains not only an examination of the role of causality in Middle-earth but what appears to be a startling re-assessment of the part played by Húrin's daughter Urwen or Lalaith in the eventual fate of her siblings.

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

[Nerwen]

Oh, and Eorl and Urwen– please don't get into a punch-up now.

It would make me very sad if the mods closed this thread.

[Urwen]

I was simply stating their birth order!

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I was simply stating their birth order!

I'm sorry, Urwen I guess your cruel assessment of my precious lovey-dovey Feanor has made me somewhat bitter

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

Whyever not? You must admit, it would make for interesting reading.

And, Urwen, in case they were a bit vague in their correction, it was the first-born daughter, not the first-born child. This makes a big difference; for instance, in some cultures the first-born son inherits even if the first-born child was a daughter. In this case, it was Morwen and Hurin's first-born daughter that crushed the butterfly, not the first-born son. Did that help? You seemed a bit confused still.

EDIT: PS, this thread is becomming rather rude. "If you have any knowledge" in particular. Quite rude, and maybe not the best move if you want us to take you seriously. Just sayin'.

[Urwen]

I'm sorry, Urwen I guess your cruel assessment of my precious lovey-dovey Feanor has made me somewhat bitter

And your treatment of Lalaith has made me angry!

[Nerwen]

Urwen, I don't think Eorl of Rohan has said anything unkind about Lalaith. And if you mean the posters on this thread in general– well, I've already explained why:

Originally Posted by Me

Since your only counter-arguments have been that a.) Maedhros killed other people, b.) Lalaith might have been awesome had she lived to grow up and c.) she was cute, I don't think you can blame the rest of us for turning it into a joke.

Speaking of which, got anything better yet?

Also, our hypothetical showdown between Lalaith and Glaurung is still in progress. When we last visited them, Lalaith had somehow obtained a flask of water from the Enchanted Stream in Mirkwood and had somehow convinced Glaurung to drink from it. It's that "somehow" aspect of the situation that we're now trying to clear up.

Well?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, let me explain how Lalaith can actually be considered a Warg.

There’s a record of this man called Kador. He was a border guard stationed somewhat east of Hithlum. Anyway, he had an appointment with a comrade of his named Vreth at a tavern in Dor-Lomin; they met there every few months or so to catch up with news and share some drinks. It was an all right place where not too much trouble could get started. So Kador walks in through the door, it’s busy enough this evening, and he spots Vreth standing at the bar with this guy. He’s a bit shorter than the two guards and he’s got unusually short hair.

So: Kador walks up and says “Hello there”. Vreth says “Kador! My good man! You made it. Get yourself a drink and I’ll be back in a minute or so. Those guys over there are just leaving and I owe them something, you see? Be right back. By the way, this is a mate of mine. Malder – he lives in this town.”

“All right” says Kador, and sees Vreth scurry away. “Nice to meet you” he says to Malder. “Likewise” says the stranger. So Kador orders some beer and waits for the bartender to get back, because he’s pretty thirsty. Anyway, Malder just says: “I hate geese.” Kador, thinking he misheard, asks the guy to repeat what he said, and he hears the same thing back, only this time in a more shrill, you might say worrying, tone. “I hate geese!”

Kador says aye, he doesn’t think much of them either, and glances over at where Vreth ran off to. He’s not too happy with the situation; Malder is just standing there, glowering at nothing in particular; his eyes seeming to bobble around like they're on springs.

Nothing happens for about 30 seconds, when Malder says: “I’ve always liked rolling-pins, though”. The beer arrives and Kador takes a long swig. He’s pretty angry with Vreth about now; why on Middle-earth did that ingrate allow this situation to happen? Travelling all this way to meet him and-

“The Lord of Dor-lomin is coming to town next week, some parade thing he’s organized. There’s all sorts of attractions” mused Malder. “Foreign wares, contests, animals for show!” Malder looked as cheerful as he had so far, his lips wobbling worryingly as he spoke. “They’ve got cages, you see, with special animals. I’m going to go and look at them”. He was shaking now, and Kador was getting pretty anxious, not even pretending to keep interest in Malder’s tale and openly seeking out the head of Vreth among the crowd.

“They have a goose!” Malder shouted. “A big, white goose, biggest in the land, you know?” Kador put the pieces together and trembled in fear. He would kill Vreth for this, he said only half-jokingly. “My little brother was killed by a goose! A huge goose with huge wings! He was only 6 years old! He couldn’t defend himself! A goose! I’m going to bring my rolling-pin, and smash that goose into paste! Then we'll see! We'll all see!” Kador was shouting for Vreth as he ran away from the bar, not even finishing his beer.



Right, it appears I’ve accidentally told you the story of how a couple of Hithlum border-guards named Kador and Malder met. But I’m sure I read in Tolkien’s letters that Lalaith is an acronym or something? Something to do with Wargs, anyway.

[Urwen]

Another scenario

Brandir: Um,Niniel...

Niniel: What?

Brandir:Will you marry me?

(Enter Lalaith, Turin, Dorlas and a bunch of others)

Brandir:Anyway,where was I?

(Lalaith shows the fair blue buttefly.It's alive.)

Lalaith:I haven't squashed it after all...


That's all, folks!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Another scenario

Brandir: Um,Niniel...

Niniel: What?

Brandir:Will you marry me?

(Enter Lalaith, Turin, Dorlas and a bunch of others)

Brandir:Anyway,where was I?

(Lalaith shows the fair blue buttefly.It's alive.)

Lalaith:I haven't squashed it after all...


That's all, folks!

So now you're saying Lalaith is to blame for her brother and sister's terrible fate anyway, whether she kills the butterfly or not?

That's quite an about-face, Urwen! I thought you liked her?

[Urwen]

I did it to point out that she didn't kill the butterfly.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I did it to point out that she didn't kill the butterfly.

But look what she's done now, Urwen! She just interrupted Brandir in the middle of proposing to Niniel! Just think, Niniel could have married him instead of Túrin, and the whole horrible tragedy could have been averted– but noooo, that Lalaith just had to barge in on them at the crucial moment and ruin everything.

Again.

And we all thought Túrin was a jinx.

[Urwen]

And one other:

Turin tries to climb up to Glaurung. Lalaith comes, accompanied by Kiki,Totoro,Kim,Jason,Cristy,Chihiro,Haku,Taran,Ei lonwy,Kathe,Cora and other heroic children


Lalaith:We came to help you!

Mwahahaha!

[the phantom]

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

[Urwen]

Haha. That was only a joke.

But seriously, Lalaith's death was Maedhros' fault. Need proof? Here goes....

Maedhros:I'll defeat you, Morgoth!

Morgoth(from Angband): I don't think so,loser! Mwahahaha!

Maedhros:I will!

Morgoth(snarl):Your wish!

___________________

Lalaith:I'm dying...(dies)

There you go!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haha. That was only a joke.

But seriously, Lalaith's death was Maedhros' fault. Need proof? Here goes....

Maedhros:I'll defeat you, Morgoth!

Morgoth(from Angband): I don't think so,loser! Mwahahaha!

Maedhros:I will!

Morgoth(snarl):Your wish!

___________________

Lalaith:I'm dying...(dies)

There you go!

Eh? How does that prove anything?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

I think we'd better. What could we call it, do you think?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Haha. That was only a joke.

So... you're not joking otherwise? Dear me.

[Mnemosyne]

Regarding Eomer's Lalaith-as-a-Warg theory, I'm sure the Wargs would never have allowed one of their own to suffer--in fact, I doubt that Wargs, with their superior constitution, would have even been affected by the plague.

All we have on this story is Turin's testimony, and he was delirious at the time of Lalaith's so-called "death". We actually have no eye-witness testimony that she died.

Lalaith didn't die. She just went home*.




*In fact, Lalaith (not her real name, obviously. Even Urwen was a cover for her true Wargish name) was sent to the House of Hurin to be fostered and learn somewhat of mortal ways before being called to her Higher Mission of Being Awesome and Stuff. It is said that if Turin had known of her true nature and thus believed that Lalaith Lives! (tm), her awesomeness would have been able to protect him from afar and thus prevent the curse from ever falling upon him. But Morwen believed in giving her son a healthy dose of reality, colloquially known as "Life's an Adjective's Mother**," so that that way he would be prepared to deal with fits of emo passion, talking swords, and other matters of that ilk, and so she lied to her son. That splinter that she got when Turin was riding off to be fostered was Lalaith's last reminder to tell him, and prevent the curse, but Morwen was too thick to see it and so Lalaith revoked her awesome protection even from Morwen in a fit of spite. Hurin was also aware of Lalaith's fate, but she had resolved never to protect him from any sort of curse after that one time he gave her a flea bath.

**There is a story behind this idiomatic expression, peculiar to Hithlum, but it's so esoteric that not even Carl Hostetter wanted to have anything to do with it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Regarding Eomer's Lalaith-as-a-Warg theory, I'm sure the Wargs would never have allowed one of their own to suffer--in fact, I doubt that Wargs, with their superior constitution, would have even been affected by the plague.

Your first statement is, regrettably, unreasonable; however, your second point is worthy of consideration. Wargs are famously resistant to disease (some would argue due to their divine essence).

I'll say right now that I don't buy the Lalaith-is-warg theory. I came across it in, oh... what was it called again? Unfurnished Tales? That sounds right. It gave off a distinct scent of historical-conspiracy-theory with its talk of anagrams, acronyms, ancient maps and beared keepers of certain gates. It basically came down to the author Tolkien inserting some sort of linguistic trick into his works.

I know, right? Crazy.

But Mnemo, your point about Turin's delirium and unreliability is fascinating. This Lalaith character could, feasibly, turn up anywhere. Any other mysteries in Tolkien's works, where she could fit in?

Why am I reminded of Legolas' hare right now?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think we'd better. What could we call it, do you think?

I agree...maybe a forum for fangirls (and others of their kind) to squee madly in?

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I agree...maybe a forum for fangirls (and others of their kind) to squee madly in?

...Isn't that N&N?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

...Isn't that N&N?

Hmm, maybe, but there is still some sense involved in some of the threads. Maybe we could eliminate the sensical aspect? Everyone for boycotting all sense in N&N, say "purple"!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Hmm, maybe, but there is still some sense involved in some of the threads. Maybe we could eliminate the sensical aspect? Everyone for boycotting all sense in N&N, say "purple"!

No– look at all the ramifications of the "Lalaith Question", each of which surely deserves its own thread. Don't you think Lalaith needs a forum all to herself?

Did Maedhros kill her? Did she kill the butterfly? Would she have grown up to be an awesome dragon-pwning Mega-Sue? Did she die at all? Was she a Warg? And what about the geese?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

No– look at all the ramifications of the "Lalaith Question", each of which surely deserves its own thread. Don't you think Lalaith needs a forum all to herself?

Did Maedhros kill her? Did she kill the butterfly? Would she have grown up to be an awesome dragon-pwning Mega-Sue? Did she die at all? Was she a Warg? And what about the geese?

What about the geese? They, quite simply, acted like the infamous snake and persuaded Lalaith to stomple that butterfly. Very obvious once you think about it.

Actually, there's another question. Why has Wilwa not sworn undying hatred towards Lalaith? She stompled a butterfly!

[Urwen]

I've got another scenario.

(Dagor Dagorath.A bunch of plotters talk quietly)

Haleth:So, we'll betray them like Uldor betrayed us?

Lalaith: Yes, that's my idea.

Caranthir: And a good idea it is.

Beleg & Turin:Sure!

(Scene fades...)

Mwahaha!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I've got another scenario.

(Dagor Dagorath.A bunch of plotters talk quietly)

Haleth:So, we'll betray them like Uldor betrayed us?

Lalaith: Yes, that's my idea.

Caranthir: And a good idea it is.

Beleg & Turin:Sure!

(Scene fades...)

Mwahaha!

Mwahaha... what?

Urwen, mind clarifying what's supposed to be going on, and who is being betrayed? (The Valar?) I just want to get everything straight before I deliver the inevitable smackdown.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

What about the geese? They, quite simply, acted like the infamous snake and persuaded Lalaith to stomple that butterfly. Very obvious once you think about it.

Of course! It must have happened something like this:

Lalaith: Ooo. Butterfwy pwetty!

[From either side, the narrow, beaked head and long serpentine of a goose thrusts into her field of vision.]

Goose 1 (hissing): Sssstomp it, Lalaith...
Goose 2 (hissing): Yesss! You know you want to....

And the rest, sadly, is history.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Actually, there's another question. Why has Wilwa not sworn undying hatred towards Lalaith? She stompled a butterfly!

Maybe she doesn't know? Someone needs to tell her, quick!

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But Mnemo, your point about Turin's delirium and unreliability is fascinating. This Lalaith character could, feasibly, turn up anywhere. Any other mysteries in Tolkien's works, where she could fit in?

I can think of one. It's a long story, though:

Túrin's parents did indeed lie to him about his sister's death– not because she was a Warg, but because they didn't want him to know they had sold her to pay the doctor's bill.

They didn't have much choice. The mysterious traveller who happened to pass through Dor-lómin just when the plague was at its height offered to heal both their deathly ill children– but at a price: their daughter. [Dramatic chords!] Faced with the loss of both their offspring, Morwen and Húrin reluctantly agreed, despite their misgivings about the stranger's motives, and their doubts of his claim that all he wanted was a dear little girl to keep him company.

Little did they know justified their fears really were. This stranger was none other than... Sauron the Necromancer. [More dramatic chords!] By his dark sorcery the hapless Lalaith was transformed from an innocent child into a small but terrifying undead being– a kind of proto-Nazgûl, in fact. She served her black master faithfully for millenia, eventually becoming the Lieutenant of Morgul in the Third Age

Oh yes, didn't I mention that Sauron re-named his new servant after his old pal and colleague, the Lord of Balrogs? Well, I mean, "Lalaith" clearly wouldn't do, would it?

There you go: identity of Gothmog II solved once and for all!

NB: Note that Tolkien never once specifies Gothmog's gender! Trying to tell us something?

[Urwen]

Yesss, betray the Valar...

Don't forget that Morgoth was a Vala once.


Betray Morgoth's forces, of course! What else?

Let me clarify:

Those plotters planned to swear fealty to Morgoth, fight against elves and men for a while and then..join forces with ones they fought, with elvish trumpets and manish horns playing a sweet dramatic tune...


P.S. And as for the geese, they didn't work against Lalaith, but for her. Don't you see? They didn't want buttefly to take the credit! They wanted Lalaith herself to save her siblings, not some darn butterfly! And that's why they told her to squash it!

And forever and ever I'll work to defend Lalaith's honour!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yesss, betray the Valar...

Don't forget that Morgoth was a Vala once.


Betray Morgoth's forces, of course! What else?

Let me clarify:

Those plotters planned to swear fealty to Morgoth, fight against elves and men for a while and then..join forces with ones they fought, with elvish trumpets and manish horns playing a sweet dramatic tune...

I see. And Morgoth would trust them... why, exactly?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

P.S. And as for the geese, they didn't work against Lalaith, but for her. Don't you see? They didn't want buttefly to take the credit! They wanted Lalaith herself to save her siblings, not some darn butterfly! And that's why they told her to squash it!

So, what went wrong? You know, seeing as Túrin and Nienor did, in fact, both come to a bad end? Remember?

[Urwen]

What went wrong is that Maedhros killed Lalaith before she and her pets geese could bring their plans to reality!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

What went wrong is that Maedhros killed Lalaith before she and her pets geese could bring their plans to reality!

*sigh* Urwen, the reasons why Maedhros did not, in fact, kill Lalaith have been given multiple times now– I've already pointed this out. You, meanwhile, have failed to come up with a a single valid argument– not a one.

But very well then– what plans did Lalaith and the geese have?

[Urwen]

All right. I'll list their plans:

1.Save Turin.

2.Save Niniel.

3.Put lizzard into Morgoth's cushion.

4.Kill Glaurung.

5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.

6. Sail to the West with Beleg,Turin,Niniel and Brandir.

Those were their plans.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

All right. I'll list their plans:

1.Save Turin.

2.Save Niniel.

3.Put lizzard into Morgoth's cushion.

4.Kill Glaurung.

5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.

6. Sail to the West with Beleg,Turin,Niniel and Brandir.

Those were their plans.

1. How?

2. How?

3. Why?

4. How?

5. ...So they saved Beleg too? Um... how?

6. Ooo, guess what I'm going to ask– that's right: How?

You see the problem? Those are not plans. They are merely goals. It is very nice to have goals, but not terribly useful, really, unless you have some feasible strategy for achieving them (see: plans).

[Urwen]

Goose1:No,mistress, it's too dangerous!
Lalaith:You're my pets.You should know I wish to save our race!
Goose1:But...
Goose2:That dragon is too dangerous!
Lalaith:Not for me!
Glaurung:You'd better listen to your pets,for I...

(Lalaith kills Glaurung in a second,climbs on Goose1's back and flies off to far away)

Have at it!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Goose1:No,mistress, it's too dangerous!
Lalaith:You're my pets.You should know I wish to save our race!
Goose1:But...
Goose2:That dragon is too dangerous!
Lalaith:Not for me!
Glaurung:You'd better listen to your pets,for I...

(Lalaith kills Glaurung in a second,climbs on Goose1's back and flies off to far away)

Have at it!

Sure. Once again: how did she kill him? What you just said does not answer that question at all.

[Nerwen]

And don't just say, "She did it with her awesome power of awesome awesomeness". I want a method, Urwen. Numerous warriors failed to best Glaurung in combat. Túrin in the end only managed it by stealth.

So how did Lalaith do it?

[Urwen]

Ask Hunthor how. He experienced the same thing.