LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[Imladris]

Yes, to a degree. But I question whether the "wisest of all" would have spoken the words requiring the apology in the first place. In the wisdom stakes, Galadriel trumps him by recognising the rashness of his words. And I can't imagine Elrond speaking so rashly (OK, he is Half-Elven, but you get the point). He is undoubtedly wise, but the wisest?

Are not even the wise allowed to make mistakes? Celeborn has been around for a very long time -- I'm sure he does not have fond feelings for Dwarves, considering their race slaughtered Thingol, his kinsman. Also he had expected to be able to speak with Gandalf and when he learned that he had fallen in Moria because of a balrog, I'm sure that he can be pardoned for a bit of anger and frustration, especially with the Ring and the rising strength of Sauron to consider as well.

Simply, my point is this: it must have taken great humility to apologize to a dwarf. Humility, to me, is a sign of wisdom -- probably one of the greatest forms of wisdom. Humility is contrary to pride, which has been a prominent vice in all of the "bad guys" -- and as such, pride was their downfall. To me, humility is astonishing so wise and great a lord. All in all though, we don't know enough about Celeborn to judge him on this little incident.

[drigel]

Given the acceptable canon..
Maybe the wisest among Sindar appears thusly as Celeborn does when compared to a Noldorian princess born in Aman..?..?

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

Of course not…how about this as well: Galadriel as ‘sorceress’. I’m thinking here of the figure as we find her in the Homeric tradition, specifically Kirke and Kalypso from the Odyssey.

I must admit that this view makes me a bit uneasy. Or perhaps not specifically this view but a more general attitude that has emerged. Maybe I'm just too much of a feminist to look at this clearly - but the view of Galadriel as a feminine threat to a masculine quest disagrees with me. I think that perhaps we are all overstating the "perilous" aspect of Lorien and of Galadriel. Kirke and Kalypso (and Dido, while we're at it) are not at all on Odysseus's (or Aeneas's) side. None of them has any reason to desire the success of the male hero's quest. None of them is "good". Galadriel is most certainly good. She is part of the same group of authority figures as Gandalf and Elrond. She is unambiguously an ally (unlike, say, Denethor or Gollum). Yes, there is peril in Lorien. Yes, Galadriel is tempted by the Ring. But it is not an adventure, like the encounters with Kirke and Kalypso. It is perhaps a bit more like Aeneas's stop in Carthage - and yet that's fundamentally different as well. Dido opposed Aeneas's quest and actively sought to dissuade him from it. Here, it is Frodo who asks Galadriel to take the Ring, and she that refuses.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Kirke and Kalypso (and Dido, while we're at it) are not at all on Odysseus's (or Aeneas's) side. None of them has any reason to desire the success of the male hero's quest. None of them is "good".

Ah yes, but then again, none of them is really "evil" -- it was Medieval and Renaissance commentators who couched the "witches" as being wicked women trying to defeat the noble men. In the original context (and in our own modern readings, I would suggest) these women come across far more as alternatives to the hero's quest. The danger they represent to the male hero is not one of restraint ("I won't let you go") but of making the hero so comfortable and happy that he will forsake his quest ("I don't want to go").

davem has already pointed out how this is the real danger of Lorien and Galadriel; that the hero, Frodo, will give way to the appealing nature of this realm and allow himself to be overwhelmed by it. He does in fact do this when he offers Galadriel the Ring, and you make an excellent point Aiwendil when you point out how it is up to Galadriel herself to deny her own desires.

The real usefulness of linking Galadriel to the Homeric context is not, as I said above, to try to use that to 'supplant' the other contexts suggested, but to highlight how Galadriel, in this moment of her choosing, truly is "perilous" insofar as she is a good woman with incredible power, tempted to do an evil thing.

[The Saucepan Man]

*Dodges apples hurled by Celeborn fans*

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Such scenes and apologies can be staged by the artful.

A nice thought, Rim. But why stage the reception of the Fellowship thus?

Originally Posted by Imladris

Are not even the wise allowed to make mistakes?

But Celeborn is "corrected" by Galadriel not just once, but twice. And the first instance occurs practically the first time that he speaks. As for Elves' relationships with Dwarves, he starts out on the right foot with Gimli, expressing a hope that the lifting of Lorien's ban on Dwarves might signify a renewed friendship between their races. I take your point that he was beset with grief at Gandalf's fall. But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Originally Posted by drigel

Maybe the wisest among Sindar appears thusly as Celeborn does when compared to a Noldorian princess born in Aman..?..?

Ah, but he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth", not simply wisest of the Sindar.

Of course, I am simply expressing my own reaction to the character, and I am most certainly not denying the impression that others may have formed. But perhaps it is more interesting to consider why Tolkien depicts Celeborn in the manner that he does. I think that the inimitable Prof Hedgethistle put it very well when he said:

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Celeborn seems to me to be the perfect mate for Galadriel. He is steady and dependable where she is perilous. He is both lesser than her, but also greater: he does not provide counsel as wise as his wife, but neither is he a threat to take the Ring. He could, perhaps, be a vision of what will happen to Galadriel after the Fellowship leaves. Having forsaken her dynamic desire between good and evil, she will fade into a rather bland and uninteresting 'wise and all powerful figure of the woods' who, strangely, has lost much of her power to compel. She will indeed diminish. . .

But, for me, there is still a mismatch between his deeds and his depiction. Is this perhaps intentional on Tolkien's part?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Wow, here last night I thought I had caught up with this thread! And again this morning! Forgive me if this post is not quite up with current thoughts as I am lagging behind by quite a few hours.

Yes, I tend to give Celeborn more credit for keeping his peace, perhaps he is well used to Galadriel’s little idiosyncrasies by now. But he does seem to give the unfortunate impression that he is thinking aloud in this chapter.

On morning stars, curiously both Jesus (Revelations) and Lucifer (Isaiah) are referred to as the morning star, Lucifer itself meaning morning or day star or Venus. But being Lutheran not Catholic, am unaware of this designation being placed on Mary. To my mind the title seems to refer to a brillant personage who was around before the dawn of the earth (note that that would be before Lucifer's rebellion)…the latter of which I believe, would not quite fit Galadriel or Mary. There goes my theory!

Child I think you hit upon something with the association of Galadriel with prophets. If she had taken up keeping Frodo’s ring, even if her rule would serve to widen that window on the West, bringing beauty and wisdom, how painful would it become once the propensity of the ring to debase her, took root. All would indeed “love her and despair”! I must say though, that she appears to have made excellent use of Vilya, and seems to have mastered that ring quite completely. It remains a marvel to me that Sauron did not guess earlier that one of the rings was hidden in that marvelous wood.


A bit more on Boromir…. I have not read the least two threads, actually given the comments in this one I confess I’m a little scared to, but suspect that I might be more sympathetic to the character than most. He is only human after all. But at this point you can really see the beginning of rapid psychological unraveling. It is almost as if Galadriel thoughts and Aragorn’s words to serve as a catalyst to doubt. I do not think in the end he covets the ring so much as the hope it has come to represent for him. And I find it odd that he, who has at every turn praised the many virtues of the Gondorian people, would look to something external to save them. But he has hope in Elendil’s sword as well as the ring and when both appear unattainable he snaps.

Now I must, run off and read what all I have missed!

[drigel]

Sauce I agree with your conclusion. But, "Wisest of all elves of ME" could still apply to 'Born, but IMO, or my paltry attempt at making my point was that, with the exception of Elrond or Cirdan, would there be any other elf who could come even close to an equivilent relative to G? On his own, as being one of the "wise", or as a leader - he would stand out. Perfect mate yes - most def - the necessary counterweight in the relationship.
Hey this is Galadriels chapter anyways - all this 'born talk is distracting my contemplation on the Lady.. meowwwww

[Imladris]

But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Control of emotions does not equal wisdom.

Maybe there are different kinds of wisdom? Sort of like the brainy professor who has no sense and the student who has sense but isn't the brightest bulb...Sense and brains are both "smart" -- just different kinds of smart.

Thus maybe your definition of "wise" is not the definition Tolkien had in mind.

[Bêthberry]

Since we seem to be keeping very good track of the argument here I will forego, as Fordim has, to provide specific quotations from people's posts. Truly, this discussion is, I think, representative of how 'the sum is greater than the parts' and a true testament to what Downers can achieve!

I too am loathe to suggest that Galadriel is 'evil' or has nefarious motives. Perhaps it was my reference to the satan--and the lowercase 's' is very significant here--as the being who prompted or challenged people to seek their best. The lowercase 's' clearly represents an early use of the word which bears no meaning to one of evil intent who works to destroy or usurp the divine plan.

Yet this confusion of feminine intention is very much part and parcel of the literary tradition of strong women, sorceresses or witches. Here I want to make some comparison to the Arthurian legends, where in some versions there is a clear distinction between the good Viviane and the evil Morgan le Fey. It all depends upon which author one reads. And in later traditions, even Viviane is portrayed as a woman of power which menaces men.

I bring this up also because of another important point of comparison, which perhaps should more properly be considered in the previous chapter on Lothlorien, but it bears upon the comparison here between The Shire and Lothlorien.

There is a magical, enchanted forest resplendent at the heart of Arthurian legend and that forest is very much connoted with feminine spellcraft and water. I refer to Brocéliande (pron. brOsA / EaNd), first (I believe) mentioned in Chretien de Troyes' Yvain, but part of the Arthurian legends from Geoffrey of Monmouth to Tennyson.

Brocéliande was a magical forest in Brittany. It still exists today, known now as the Forest of Paimpont and part of the tourist industry of Bretagne. (Broceliande

It was here that Viviane fell in love with Merlin, used the magic he had taught her to return him to his youthful self and inspire in him a shared loved. Here too they are buried, where Viviane is said to have woven for him a barrow of air where he yet remains.

Brocélainde in legend is also the site of an enchanted spring. These waters do not foretell the future but are said to have the power to bring forth rain (Goldberry's forte).

For those who enjoy medieval texts, here is an online version of Chretien de Troyes' Yvain

The significance, it seems to me, of all these literary allusions lies in the cauldron of story which was Tolkien's imagination. No one in particular will account for Tolkien's specific forest realm yet all suggest the material he was working with. Even if he did dislike the French and object to the Arthurian legends as being in err for their explicit Christian references. (There's a letter reference to that, which I shall dig up and return with.)

[Lalwendë]

Celeborn could be considered 'wise' if you view him in the context of consort to an incredibly charismatic woman - her immense power and her effect on others seems to outshine his own wisdom. Although it does appear that he is not as wise as Galadriel, his wisdom may lie in other areas, e.g. those of learning, which are completely outshone by Galadriel's persona.

Thinking about figureheads in our own societies, there have been several examples where the charisma of the woman in the partnership has outshone that of the man, which ever one has held the 'real' power. The Duke of Edinburgh is said to be a very learned person, but is obviously outshone by his wife, as she is monarch (and he also shares the trait of saying the wrong thing with Celeborn ). This pattern was also displayed by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Margaret Thatcher (please bear with me, I'm not saying I agreed with her) was highly powerful, with almost uncanny abilities to control others, rather like Galadriel has, while her husband attracted ridicule from the media as being rather weak in comparison, despite being a successful businessman. In the partnership between Hilary and Bill Clinton, it was obviously Bill who had the real power, but Hilary's persona often outshone his.

Now I don't think that Tolkien was saying that Galadriel had in some way 'emasculated' the power of Celeborn, but I do think that with Galadriel he was showing his readers something of the nature of power as he perceived it, that charisma is very important. I think that Galadriel does have innate power, but she is clearly masterful at making an impression, in a magical, Elven way, in order to reinforce her own power.

I do agree with what Imladris says here:

Simply, my point is this: it must have taken great humility to apologize to a dwarf. Humility, to me, is a sign of wisdom -- probably one of the greatest forms of wisdom. Humility is contrary to pride, which has been a prominent vice in all of the "bad guys" -- and as such, pride was their downfall. To me, humility is astonishing so wise and great a lord. All in all though, we don't know enough about Celeborn to judge him on this little incident.

It is always the wiser person who is able to apologise.

Galadriel and Celeborn simply display different types of wisdom. His is quiet, and hers is charismatic. This could almost be contrasted, without insinuating anything about Galadriel, with the different types of power displayed by Saruman and Gandalf.

[davem]

Perhaps we can look at the roles of Galadriel & Celeborn - at least at the beginning of this chapter - in a different way.

What they seem to symbolise is 'Justice' & 'Mercy'. Celeborn is 'Justice' - he judges (quite fairly) each member of the Felowship - He says Gandalf has fallen from wisdom in confronting the Balrog alone. He then declares Gimli is at fault, at representative of his people.

Galadriel symbolises 'Mercy' - she offers compassion & understanding. From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence. I think its wrong to judge Celeborn too harshly, or to criticise his actions. Clearly he & Galadriel play specific roles in the rule of Lorien. He is not simple or unlearned. 'Wisdom' is not always manifested in obvious ways. Without Galadriel the rule of Lorien would be unduly harsh & perhaps cruel, without Celeborn it may have been too weak & overly compassionate. Justice untempered by Mercy leads to injustice, but so does Merce untempered by Justice. They provide a balance.

There is always a danger in attributing human values, motives & behaviour to non-human beings. In the context of LotR alone the events of this chapter have a deeper significance.

The Company have entered the Earthly Paradise, literally Heaven on Earth. But we could also say they have entered the 'Workhouse' & Celeborn & Galadriel represent the First &Second 'voices' in the Niggle story. They are to be judged as to their motives in their spiritual Quest.

All the members of the Company are to be tested by their encounter - they are all on trial - & the 'personal' aspects of the judges are not really relevant - actually as judges Celeborn & Galadriel are 'above' judgement themselves. The 'defendants are on trial, not the judges. It is irrelevant what Galadriel's motives are - so Boromir is wrong in attempting to judge her - he misses the point.

Of course, at the end, Frodo turns the test back on Galadriel by offering her the Ring, but at this point that's valid she has set herself up as judge, & has to be able to justify her actions, & show that she herself is not above the Law. That she succeeds & passes that test proves that she is qualified to judge others. Frodo, however, is tested most, because he has the greatest task & his failure would lead to ultimate defeat for all.

Perhaps this accounts for Galadriel's 'genderlessness' - her role is to be a judge of hearts & minds. By the end of the chapter certainly she has taken over the shared role she had with Celeborn. She is not a 'woman', but an Archetype, testing, questioning, the defendents, but in a real sense they will all judge themselves - or be given the opportunity to.

Leaving Lorien they leave the heart of Elvendom on Earth, they pass out of the Earthly Paradise & return to the world to act on what they have learned about themselves. Judgement will be passed on all of them by their actions. Frodo & Sam particularly have been confronted by their worst hopes & fears (mostly unconscious till they looked into the Mirror), & must now face the future in full knowledge of their situation. They have seen, as clearly as possible, what they face, what the real stakes are.

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

Ah yes, but then again, none of them is really "evil" -- it was Medieval and Renaissance commentators who couched the "witches" as being wicked women trying to defeat the noble men. In the original context (and in our own modern readings, I would suggest) these women come across far more as alternatives to the hero's quest.

Oh, I agree. They are not quite "evil". But they are not "good" either. Galadriel is. I don't think this invalidates your comparison, but it is an important and fundamental difference.

Bethberry wrote:

The significance, it seems to me, of all these literary allusions lies in the cauldron of story which was Tolkien's imagination. No one in particular will account for Tolkien's specific forest realm yet all suggest the material he was working with. Even if he did dislike the French and object to the Arthurian legends as being in err for their explicit Christian references.

He did dislike the Arthurian stuff and seems never to have forgiven the Norman invasion, it's true - but interestingly, "Broceliand" was an early form of what became "Beleriand". Christopher comments on the connection with Arthurian legend in HoMe III, but comes up with no explanation.

[Encaitare]

Wow -- this thread seems to have just expanded overnight.

I see we've moved towards matters of Celeborn, but I had a thought I'd like to throw out there.

Perhaps the reason Galadriel seems to be genderless is because of the way we first meet her:

Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hait of the lord was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

From the moment we see her, she and Celeborn are described as having very similar characteristics (at least on the outside): Tolkien consistently uses "they" when describing their height, garb, eyes, and countenance. I also like davem's suggestion that Galadriel is

a judge of hearts & minds

and therefore must not show bias that gender can bring about.

While we're on the topic of Celeborn, I feel his humility and his willingness to admit that he is wrong does suggest a wisdom all his own -- not the wisdom of counsel as given by Elrond, and not the wisdom of Galadriel, which, as has been said, forces people to look within themselves and choose the right path. Rather, it is a more quiet sort of wisdom which is not always clear to see. He first speaks rashly due to the shock of Gandalf's death, but otherwise he is courteous, especially in his welcome to Gimli. A sign of the courtesy of Celeborn (and all Elves as is mentioned) is that he and Galadriel stand when the Fellowship arrives.

It seems that Celeborn (contrary to his movie persona!) is more of a speaker. He gives welcome and voices his opinion immediately. Even when what he says is incorrect, he does not hesitate. On the other hand, Galadriel is a thinker. She observes people first to understand them and their purposes -- note how Frodo sees that she "said no word but looked long upon his face" as Celeborn greeted the Fellowship. Combined with her ability to look into the minds of the Fellowship (is this an example of osanwe? I'm still not very familiar with the idea.), she can evaluate anyone she meets.

[Boromir88]

Davem:

Galadriel symbolises 'Mercy' - she offers compassion & understanding. From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence. I think its wrong to judge Celeborn too harshly, or to criticise his actions.

First off, nice connection between the "justice" and "mercy," I think that is a definate idea. I also agree, that we shan't judge Celeborn so harshly. First off, if a dwarf was hitting on my wife, I would be someone annoyed as well. In fact, I think Celeborn handled the situation well, he was just silent. I would have laid down the smack, if you get my meaning.

He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf fashionm saying: "yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that like beneath the earth!"

There was silence. At length Celeborn spoke again...

I'd like to mention it's quite a statement, for a dwarf to hold Galadriel above all jewels, so we can only imagine how beautiful Galadriel appeared to Gimli.

Back to Celeborn...

"I did not know that your plight was so evil," he (Celeborn) said. "Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden."

Celeborn apologizes to Gimli, and the next chapter gives the Fellowship the boats, to travel by, which is to the relief of Aragorn. So, in that way he has helped. It is rather curious how he said "I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need," but again, it's Galadriel that gives out the little goodies in the end. And it is Galadriel that truely knows what Aragorn desires, and awards him that desire, in chapters to come.

[Imladris]

It is rather curious how he said "I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need," but again, it's Galadriel that gives out the little goodies in the end. And it is Galadriel that truely knows what Aragorn desires, and awards him that desire, in chapters to come.

That doesn't mean that Celeborn didn't have anything to do with it...Like typical husband and wife, they decided to give them the gifts together, and Galadriel did the giving, even though they both "gave" to the Fellowship. Does that make sense? They both decided to do it, but Galadriel did the actual giving.

[The Saucepan Man]

Poor long-suffering Celeborn

[Bêthberry]

This chapter has inspired one of the longest threads for discussion in the Chapter by Chapter subforum! Fascinating.

Much as I do not wish to intrude upon the direction and tenor of the discussion, I would like to clarify a couple of points.

davem posted:
From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence.

This was not, strictly speaking, my use of the 'satan' role. In fact, Devil's Advocate is quite the opposite from my use. In the Catholic Church, when people are being considered for sainthood, a long and ardulous process is now followed. A formal role is defined in the process, the role of the 'Devil's Advocate.' This person's job is to dig out the dirt, to disprove the evidence that the person is worthy of sainthood and that miracles have been legitimately ascribed to this person's intercession.

This is not what the 'satan' does. The original meaning of satan is a role rather than a person: that of an obedient servant (such as an angel of the Lord) who opposes human plans and desires. Perhaps the satan is sent to help people avoid worse harm. One of the clearest examples is the Book of Job where the satan persuades God to act against Job in order to prove Job's integrity and worthiness. It was this kind of testing I implied with Galadriel's vision into the heart of each member of the Fellowship, holding out to each what he most desired and letting each one determine for himself the right way to handle that desire. This is not the same thing as uncovering sin or error: it is a tempering of the steel of integrity in the fire of goodness.

Thus, while I admire the neatness of your argument, I think this dichotomy does not allow for the kind of power which I see Galadriel wielding. It is stunning, I think, that Tolkien turns this around on her with Frodo's offer of the Ring. This I regard as an example of Tolkien's perceptiveness and originality--what he brings new to the table of moral challenges.

I don't think there is an easy answer about the depiction of Celeborn. I think we must ultimately rely solely on LotR as Galadriel was invented for it and back written so to speak into The Silm. Who was it here--Child?--who pointed out that this is one of the few relationships in LotR which is not depicted as successful. Maybe we simply have to accept that Tolkien conceived of a very powerful 'goddess' or sorceress figure and this was his way of understanding the dynamics of such a woman. Jumping ahead, we know that the two do not stay together. Maybe we simply have to accept that this was a dynastic marriage and when the political context changed, so did the nature of the relationship.

Aiwendil, thank you for that reference to Beleriand and Broceliande from CT. However much Tolkien derived his name from that of Troyes, my sense of the enchanted forest in the chanson bears greater affinity to the descriptions of Lothlorien than to those of Beleriand.

EDIT: I just read Saucey's final word on Celeborn. Now, what's a picture worth?

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

Aiwendil, thank you for that reference to Beleriand and Broceliande from CT. However much Tolkien derived his name from that of Troyes, my sense of the enchanted forest in the chanson bears greater affinity to the descriptions of Lothlorien than to those of Beleriand.

Oh, I concur. I just things its interesting - and it may suggest that Troyes was more in Tolkien's mind than one might at first suspect.

I think we must ultimately rely solely on LotR as Galadriel was invented for it and back written so to speak into The Silm. Who was it here--Child?--who pointed out that this is one of the few relationships in LotR which is not depicted as successful.

I must say that I don't see their relationship as particularly unsuccesful. Certainly not in this chapter. Yes, Galadriel returned west and Celeborn did not - but is there really a suggestion of estrangement between them?

As for the Silmarillion material - I don't think that the only valid approach is to restrict ourselves solely to LotR. Of course we must always bear the relative dates and such of various texts in mind - but I think that some of the very late Galadriel texts do in fact provide a certain valuable insight into the character.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Perhaps the satan is sent to help people avoid worse harm.

This is a very ancient symbolic role, certainly - it crops up in Tarot, with the figure of the Devil/The Guardian, but I don't see Galadriel manifesting that Archetype in the context of this chapter - She does manifest Justice, The High Priestess, The Empress & Strength particularly.

It is stunning, I think, that Tolkien turns this around on her with Frodo's offer of the Ring.

Yes, but I also think that Galadriel's 'temptation' scene is also a test of Frodo - he is being confronted with what would happen if he surrendered the Ring to anyone - even someone apparently good, powerful & trustworthy. So her test is also his.

As to Brocelliande, I can't help wondering how much of an influence Williams'Taliesin poems had on Tolkien.

[mark12_30]

Yes, Galadriel returned west and Celeborn did not - but is there really a suggestion of estrangement between them?

Are we sure Celeborn *never* went west? I thought it was unclear, like Elladan and Elrohir; and I always assumed that they went west sometime before Legolas and Gimli.

I thought Celeborn stayed behind mainly for the post-war realignment and cleanup, and to support Elessar by providing stable neighbors.

The fact that Arwen is said to have returned to a forest that was 'silent and empty' at Cerin Amroth to me indicates that there was a pretty steady elven migration westward, mostly finishing by the time of her death. I see no reason Celeborn would not have been a part of that. Is there any indication otherwise?

Edit: Hilde just reminded me that Celeborn went to live in Rivendell, which I had forgotten.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I am intrigued by your very nice formula of Celeborn and Galadriel as enacting Justice and Mercy, davem, but like Bb I think I am somewhat too suspicious of 'neatness' -- I like this idea, but I think it might reduce the role of Galadriel in this chapter somewhat by denying her own complex testing by the Ring, and by Frodo. I made some comments about judgement in regards to Gandalf's fall, but I think there's something different going on in this chapter -- well, Bb has already said it: this is a chapter of testing, but not by anyone in particular, of of everyone by the Ring and by the threat of the Ring.

Forgive me the early morning post, but I can no longer remember or quickly find who made the following point. I will hope to edit later and attribute it -- but there was discussion above about Galadriel and Celeborn as being like Saruman and Gandalf in the sense that Galadriel/Saruman are about charisma, while Gandalf and Celeborn are more about quietly working in the background. . .what a fascinating idea. It seems to me however that we can refine this. Galadriel is the positive force of charisma: she enchants people and even commands their love but not for the purpose of domination -- she's like that ultimate pretty girl who can't help but have the men fall for her, but who is sweet natured enough never to let it go to her head. Saruman is a seducer, who uses his charisma for power and command.

Is there a way to look at Celeborn and Gandalf in this same negative/positive way? I think the difficulty with Celeborn is that we know so little of him, but perhaps that's the point?? For most people in Middle-Earth Gandalf is about as well known or useful as is Celeborn to us. Time and again we see people who have no idea who or what Gandalf really is and they keep underestimating him, ignoring him or dismissing him, to the peril of the world. As the story goes on I sometimes feel that Gandalf had been a bit too careful and retiring in showing his true worth and power; if he had been a bit more forthcoming with his glory in the past, perhaps he wouldn't have had such a rough time in Rohan, and perhaps he could have overawed Saruman earlier.

The 'cloaking' of Gandalf, however, is made a positive/good thing in that it is one of the things that earns him the right to return as Gandalf the White; be demonstrating that he can contain his glory, that he won't just turn on the charisma to get an easy win, but instead seek to help others act for themselves, he is vested with the great power needed to complete the task. Celeborn is the negative of this (???) in that he keeps his wisdom and power so well hidden, even from the people who meet him, that he is basically useless beyond the borders of his own realm. The kingdoms of Men around him don't even realise he's an ally, and even when he helps the Fellowship, it is Galadriel who gets all the credit.

Like I said, early morning and a lack of information about Celeborn makes this really shaky.

One more point: Sauce, that is hands-down one of the funniest things I've seen on the Downs. . .and the last and best word on Celeborn.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

I am intrigued by your very nice formula of Celeborn and Galadriel as enacting Justice and Mercy, davem, but like Bb I think I am somewhat too suspicious of 'neatness' -- I like this idea, but I think it might reduce the role of Galadriel in this chapter somewhat by denying her own complex testing by the Ring, and by Frodo.

Didn't want to suggest that was the only interpretation - I've thrown in others myself - I really wanted to bring in another angle. I think the symbolism & the inter-relationships within this chapter are incredibly complex, & its necessary to look at it from as many perspectives as possible. Bit like a shattered hologram - each piece will show the original object but from a slightly different angle.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

In terms of Galadriel's gender....yes, she certainly had marriage and a family. The marriage, however, is also depicted in a manner that is unusual for Tolkien. At the end of the story, we aren't sure where or when or even if she and her husband will come together. I can't think of too many "good guys/gals" in Tolkien who voluntarily separate themselves from their spouse! Tolkien is very careful to keep many of his characters single precisely because he does not want them to have the responsibilities of wife and hearth that would tie them down. "Good" married couples just don't go running off in two separate directions in Middle-earth. ~Child

Sorry to jump back a few posts here, but we also should remember Elrond and Celebrian’s separation. Granted Elrond eventually rejoins his wife, but it does open the possibility that this was culturally acceptable to elves.

(Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!)

[drigel]

(Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was was not the head of it!)

if Galadriel had her way he would have been..... alas that at the time Saruman outranked the Grey Pilgram.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Given that Galadriel called them all together, and her special gifts, it would seem that she might have had a greater say it its leadership. But I suppose being all about the enemy and Saruman’s specialty, he was the natural choice on two counts.

I was also curious whether mention was ever made of Celeborn’s having been included.

Apologies for side tracking a little with this train of thought, I have been enjoying the dialog even if I feel a bit like I'm a child sitting at the feet of the learned. So many interesting and creative ideas to ponder!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!

From the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales:

Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinorean structure than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order.

It would, I suppose, have been difficult for Galadriel to challenge Saruman's status within Valinorean heirarchy.

It is notable, however, that Saruman (Curumo) volunteered for the task, whereas Manwe specifically named Gandalf (Olorin) and appears to have commanded that he should go:

But only two came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin [Christopher Tolkien's note: illegible words follow that seem to contain the wrod "third"]. But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third"; and Curumo remembered it.

The final sentence is interesting. It seems that Varda, like Galadriel, considered that Saruman should not outrank Gandalf, whatever the heirarchy within Valinor. Had Galadriel known the precise circumstances of the appointment of the Istari, perhaps she could have relied on these to support a challenge to Saruman's leadership of the White Council.

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

I was also curious whether mention was ever made of Celeborn’s having been included.

Of course he would have been included. He was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Thank you Saucepan Man.

It is interesting to note that Saruman volunteered to become embroiled in ME's troubles and Gandalf went reluctantly. It does seem characteristic of Gandalf to give way to Saruman's leadership in the council as well. He doesn't seem to enjoy the limelight much, and it served him very well to be that way.

I enjoyed your "Final Word"! Very good use of expressive pictures!

[Boromir88]

Originally posted by Child-In terms of Galadriel's gender....yes, she certainly had marriage and a family. The marriage, however, is also depicted in a manner that is unusual for Tolkien. At the end of the story, we aren't sure where or when or even if she and her husband will come together. I can't think of too many "good guys/gals" in Tolkien who voluntarily separate themselves from their spouse! Tolkien is very careful to keep many of his characters single precisely because he does not want them to have the responsibilities of wife and hearth that would tie them down. "Good" married couples just don't go running off in two separate directions in Middle-earth.

Originally posted by Hilde-Sorry to jump back a few posts here, but we also should remember Elrond and Celebrian’s separation. Granted Elrond eventually rejoins his wife, but it does open the possibility that this was culturally acceptable to elves.

Don't forget trusty Sam either. Leaving a pleasurable life with 13 kids, for....Frodo?

[Lhunardawen]

Oh my goodness. I am too late! With no time to read all posts! Aaahh!

So please allow me to post, though I might have been repeating some points already...uh...pointed out.

The Fellowship's meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn begins with great gates that Haldir knocks on. And they opened soundlessly...though Frodo could not see a sign of any guards. Looking ahead (I'm sorry, Esty!) we'll encounter two more places with "automatic" gates: Meduseld in Rohan and the Citadel of Gondor. So what's with these gates? Are they a technology of the Elves that were somehow passed on to Men? Or are they merely typical of royal dwellings?

Walking on, we see an interesting structure of the dwelling...

...there stood the mightiest of all the trees...

Is this in some way alike to the tree-house the shipwrecked family built in The Swiss Family Robinson? Anyway, we see that the dwelling is so closely-linked to nature, as if they coexist.

The first impression I had of Galadriel and Celeborn was that they were intimidating. They were tall, grave, and beautiful, and considered among the Wise. Galadriel had golden hair, being of the house of Finarfin. Celeborn had silver hair, being of the house of Thingol. Gold and silver...wait. Any relation to the Two Trees of Valinor?

One of the things I had overlooked when I first read the chapter but eventually stood out when I read it again was the blossoming friendship between Legolas and Gimli. It might seem pretty insignificant, but these are Elf and Dwarf we are talking about. I believe that Galadriel is somehow "to blame" for this. She showed sincere kindness and concern for the Dwarf, which made the Dwarf love her (for which I wouldn't blame him). Legolas seemed to have followed her example, and started treating him a little more decently, much to the Fellowship's wonder.

Okay, I'm off to reading the thread.

[davem]

Just a quick point - I was skimming Tolkien's translation of Sir Orfeo, & in the section where Orfeo comes before the King & Queen of Faerie there is this passage:

When he had marked these marvels all,
he went before the King in hall,
and there a joyous sight did see,
a shining throne and canopy.
Their King and Lord there held his seat
beside their Lady fair and sweet.
Their crowns and clothes so brightly shone
that scarce his eyes might look thereon.

This was one of Tolkien's favourite poems, & I can't help thinking that he was influenced by this encounter of a traveller to the Elven realm.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interestingly, our discussion of these last couple of chapters has concentrated on Galadriel and Celeborn, and the poetry in them has been neglected! I’d like to go back and touch on Frodo’s lament for Gandalf. Two aspects fascinate me: first, the poem tells us who Gandalf is, in Tolkien’s own words (the canonical aspect); secondly, it tells us something about Frodo, to whom it is ascribed, if we read between the lines (the speculative aspect). (The latter is always the most fun, isn’t it?! )

The poem begins in the Shire, with Gandalf coming in the grey evening – quite appropriate for the grey pilgrim! That seems to parallel the development of the LotR storyline, which also begins with the hobbits, Shire, and Gandalf. The second stanza has him traveling further, with all four directions included, and I think it is most closely connected to the plot of The Hobbit, with its “dragon-lair and hidden door and darkling woods”. The third stanza shows how widespread his influence was, including all free peoples (known to Frodo up to that point – no Ents!) and even mentioning something we don’t actually see in the book – an ability to speak with birds and animals. Apparently that wasn’t limited to Radagast.

The fourth stanza is the most physical description – sword and hand, back and voice are included. In the fifth stanza we see his contrasting aspects, high and low – a “lord of wisdom” and an “old man in a battered hat”, and his contrasting character traits are mentioned – “swift in anger, quick to laugh”. The last stanza is the brief, touching account of his final, fatal fight.

Sam’s stanza doesn’t fit into that, does it?! It describes the fireworks, not the wizard, though I like his lines and find them beautiful.

What does the poem say about Frodo? We read:

He was seldom moved to make song or rhyme; even in Rivendell he had listened and had not sung himself…

So we can assume that it was a very important and emotional experience, to get him to do something he would not normally do. Was Frodo a perfectionist? Actually, I can sympathize with his feelings that the words he finally formed did not live up to what his mind imagined.

…his thought took shape in a song that seemed fair to him; yet when he tried to repeat it to Sam only snatches remained, faded as a handful of withered leaves.

I would guess that Tolkien, also a perfectionist, felt the same many times, though he did not share Frodo’s hesitation about putting thoughts into words.

Unlike Sam, who showed his ability to write poetry on Elven tales, Frodo is prompted to a poem by a person, one who is close to him. He is one of the “people who need people”, isn’t he?! We see him missing Bilbo, now Gandalf. I see him as having an eye for others, seeing them as they are – one of the spiritual aspects of his personality. I also see him looking to a father figure in both of those persons, not unexpectedly after losing his own father so early in life. The scene closes with his words on both of them:

I can’t bear to think of bringing the news [of Gandalf’s death] to him [Bilbo].

Finally, it also occurs to me that he is not reciting this poem in public, but to yet another person who is close to him – Sam.

[mark12_30]

Estelyn, how could I possibly resist responding to such a lovely post-- about Frodo? But my question isn't about him (a little to my own surprise.) I'm puzzled by this line--

Unlike Sam, who showed his ability to write poetry on Elven tales

To which elvish tales by Sam are you referring? I can only recall those translated or written by Bilbo; goodness, what am I missing/forgetting?

[Guinevere]

I am lagging grievously behind in following these threads.

Fascinating ideas and discussion about Galadriel and Celeborn!
I personally feel it was rather nice of Galadriel to tell the fellowship that Celeborn was the wisest Elf in ME,( even if not quite true )

originally posted by Hilde Bracegirdle:

the founding of the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!)

In the Silm (Of the Rings of Power) it says:

Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons. But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history.

I'm sure that Celeborn was also present, but not mentioned by name. Tolkien only wrote: "Therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar." The three elves named were also holders of the Elven-rings.


Very good post, Estelyn, on Frodo's lament for Gandalf! I am glad you took this up, I always liked that poem very much as well. It kind of sums up everything that Gandalf is.


Now to something that impressed me in this chapter, (and many other chapters) : the underlying strain of sadness and melancholy in the LotR .

"...and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

says Galadriel.
It reminds me of Elrond's words at the council:

I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats and many fruitless victories.

Evil can only be diminished at great cost, but never wholly overcome. It always crops up again., as after the War of Wrath:

When Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.

Nevertheless, the Elves keep on fighting bravely, though they know they can never win. Or, in the 3rd age, at least they keep resisting evil.

These quotes reflect Tolkien's own, rather pessimistic world-view, as he expressed it in letter # 195:

Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect "history" to be anything but a "long defeat" - though it contains (and in legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

Galadriel knows that the time of the Elves in ME is over, once the Elven-Rings lose their power. All the same, she resists the temptation and is willing to give up her beloved country and leave for the West. She does what is right, no matter the consequences. I find her words to Frodo always very touching:

"If you succed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
Frodo bent his head. "And what do you wish? " he said at last.
"That what should be shall be. " she answered. "The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now.

This shows us what a big sacrifice it is for the Elves.

[davem]

Why a Mirror?

Not a crystal ball, not a pack of cards, not Runestones, but a mirror. And a mirror reflects the viewer’s own image back at them. Well, in this case it reflects their inner self, their hopes, fears, desires. All well & good, except Frodo sees the Eye of Sauron.

But why would he see it in a mirror? Does it simply mean that Sauron has wrested control of the Mirror as he did of the palantiri? And how come Galadriel has also seen the Eye there?

Well, Galadriel did rebel, she was exiled from the West - perhaps it ‘reflects’ something in her nature back at her: her desire to rule, to control - certainly she claims to know Sauron’s mind. But what is Sauron’s mind - what does she mean? But still, why did Frodo see Sauron’s Eye in the Mirror?

We pass into an enclosed garden (a circle) & go down a flight of steps into a hollow (a circle within a circle). At the centre is a round basin(a circle within a circle within a circle). At the culmination of his vision Frodo sees, issuing from within a void, a single round eye, at the centre of which is a slit, ‘a window into nothing’, a void within a void. And from this void there is a pull, a negative ‘force’ - but it doesn’t pull Frodo - it pulls the Ring. The final circle.

Wheels within wheels within wheels within wheels. The Ring is the ultimate void - as much a ‘mouth’ as an ‘Eye’, it swallows all things - even the wearer’s own self in the end.

I see Morgoth here - seeking in the Void for the Secret Fire. As Nietzsche said, if you stare into an abyss long enough the abyss will start to stare back.

At the heart of Frodo’s vision, he sees ‘reflected’ the void, nothingness. Actually he sees the absence of Eru - for Eru is not in the Void (if the Secret Fire is not there, then neither is Eru, for the Secret Fire is with Him. Voids within Voids within Voids within Voids.

But the Eye within the Void is ‘searching’ for Frodo (or is it the Void within the Eye within the Void that is searching?).

I also see Ungoliant here - ever searching for ‘light’ (as Morgoth sought for the Secret Fire) to consume & transmute into the ‘nothingness’ of the void.

Back to the Beowulf lecture - man, alone, in a little circle of light, surrounded by an encroaching darkness always seeking to swallow him up, to take him within & within & within, deeper & deeper into the ‘nothingness that awaits’. It is the ‘nothingness’ within the heart of matter, at the heart of the world.

The Void is the absence of Eru - ‘salvation’ is beyond the ‘circles of the world’. Frodo has looked into into the Mirror & seen the ultimate void - the void within himself (as has Galadriel).

I suspect Tolkien is making a point here

To claim the Ring is to claim the void - Galadriel has pondered what she would do if the Ring came to her - & isn’t that the reason she also has seen the Eye? Isn’t that also what gives her the will to reject it?

She will ‘diminish, & go into the West, & remain Galadriel’, for what alternative is there?

Nothing

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

To which elvish tales by Sam are you referring? I can only recall those translated or written by Bilbo...

My mistake - I was mixing up the Gil-Galad poem, which Sam only recited (written by Bilbo) with the troll poem, which he apparently wrote.

[Encaitare]

Shame on us for neglecting the poem for Gandalf!

It's a lovely little poem, and it truly does a great job of explaining Gandalf's many "faces." From what Frodo mentions, we can tell he knew Gandalf much better (although hardly completely) than Sam. It seems that Sam, like most of the hobbits, knew Gandalf best for his fireworks, and considered them worthy of note despite everything else Gandalf did for them.

One thing I found interesting upon rereading this poem is the final line of the fifth stanza:

in Khazad-dum his wisdom died.

Now, it's most likely that Frodo simply is referring to Gandalf dying, and his wisdom (simply as an attribute) dying with him. But I can't help thinking that Frodo is sharing Celeborn's view that Gandalf's judgment was off when he decided to go into Moria.

As for Frodo's feeling that all the great things he had to say just were beyond his power to put into words, or that when spoken actually don't seem that great anymore... it's just all too true sometimes.

And now for a visual: Gandalf the Grey by John Howe. I saw this painting in a book of Tolkien-inspired art, with some of the poem as a caption. It's a beautiful painting; it really captures Gandalf's hidden power.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

But still, why did Frodo see Sauron’s Eye in the Mirror?

The Mirror shows things that were, things that are, and things that will be. As you have said that Galadriel has seen the Eye as a reflection of herself--her desire to rule and take control of the Ring--so has Frodo. Could it be that the Mirror is showing Frodo that a time will come that he would desire the Ring for himself, and in the end be consumed by it? (As if I didn't know... )

This might seem like a little bad-mouthing towards Galadriel. She might have claimed to know Sauron's mind because whatever is in there is also in hers: the Ring. Yes, Sauron has thoughts of war and strategems, but in the midst, no, encompassing them all is one thought: to get the Ring back. After all, once he gets what is his, he would be so powerful that it does not take much thought how he could govern Middle-Earth. And Galadriel also desired the Ring. They share the same thing in mind.

Galadriel has also said that Sauron does not yet know that she can see his mind, or is it that Sauron does not know hers yet? Sauron thinks that all who come to see the Ring would desire it, and do everything to possess it. But Galadriel has "passed the test" and refused the Ring, as opposed to what Sauron had in mind, so her declaration above is justified.

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Davem:

And a mirror reflects the viewer’s own image back at them. Well, in this case it reflects their inner self, their hopes, fears, desires.

Well - to me it doesn't seem that the things that Sam and Frodo see in this "mirror" are reflections of something in their minds! They see things that are happening in the present ( like Frodo sees Sauron's eye roving and searching for him, for the Ring. This is, imo, something external. After all, Sauron IS looking for the Ring and its bearer!) and things that are going to happen in the world. The significance of some of these future visions isn't known to Sam and Frodo and they are just as mysterious to the first-time reader! Only at repeated readings we know what they show: Sam sees Frodo lying pale and unconscious after Shelob's bite, himself in the tower of Cirith Ungol, searching for Frodo. Frodo sees also things of the far past: Elendil's ship coming from the west after the downfall of Númenor, Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, and then again things of the future: the corsair ship with Aragorn's banner coming up the Anduin to the battle of Pelennor, and finally the Elven ship passing into the West. These visions can't have come out of his own mind!

I have truly appreciated reading all of your reflections and various information regarding the Lord of the Rings. So many of you are filled with such insightful thoughts.

There is a great prophecy made towards the mother of Christ from the prophet Simeon. It is found in Luke 2:33, "thy own soul a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." It is amazing because during this prophecy, Christ is identified as the light of the world.

When identifying with Galadriel, she seems to have this quality. The ability to read hearts. Just my two cents. Thanks for all your thoughts.

[davem]

Just reading Kipling's 'Rewards & Fairies' & come across an episode where the children, Dan & Una, meet the spirit of Elizabeth I in a wood.

"'Play!' said the lady with a laugh, & threw up her hands affectedly. The sunshine caught the jewels on her many rings & made them flash till Una's eyes dazzled, & she had to rub them..."

Its been suggested (by Hammond & Scull in their LotR Reader's Companion) that one of Tolkien's inspirations for the appearance of Hobbits was Kipling's Puck (in 'Puck of Pook's Hill' & 'Rewards & Fairies'), so its possible that this incident inspired Tolkien in the scene where Galadriel holds up the Elven Ring & laughs.

Oddly, I'd always imagined Galadriel in Elizabethan dress at that point - even before I read the Faerie Queene.