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#41 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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I'm not sure he would have been all that different even in less stressful situations. He probably always felt himself a bit put upon. Everyone liked Thorongil better than him, his wife kicked the bucket at a rather young age, one of his sons was disappointing to him...
He is described as being "kingly." Kingly has connotations of nobility, wisdom, leadership and so forth. However, it can also have connotations of aloofness and other less savory descriptors.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#42 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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In this chapter you indeed feel breathless, waiting for the onset of a ruinous storm. Many things have been set off against each other in preparation of their coming clash, like the indomitable walls of Minas Tirith against the spear of terror of Minas Morgul. The White Tower must have a lot going for it, as no enemy has ever stepped foot inside it, but Sauron does know how to hit it hard where it counts.
Now, I find this description of Faramir interesting: Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the sadness of the Elder Race.Now, compare this to the Captain of the opposing force. The Witch-King was also one of the Kings of Men that survived into a later time, yet this one was touched with the malice and darkness of Sauron. Later on, we see this said about Faramir: He was a captain that men would follow . . . even under the shadow of the black wings.What about the Witch-King? What does his men think of him? [Messenger: ]His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding.They were both captains Men would follow, but for different reasons. One allows his men to overcome fear, the other uses fear to overcome his men. Speaking of the Witch-King . . . [Witch-King: ]Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain! [Merry] shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.Funny how Dernhelm got her . . . I mean his wish. ![]() And about Denethor: Denethor [asked] . . . questions about . . . the position of Éomer, the king's nephew.Why, I wonder? Did he think that Théoden would do what he does? [Denethor: ][Sauron] will not come save to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise . . .
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Last edited by Nilpaurion Felagund; 07-28-2005 at 06:50 PM. Reason: inserting actual analysis |
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#43 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Gandalf says that the 'abyss' has been prepared for the WK & for Sauron, that 'nothingness' awaits them. Prepared by whom? Only by Eru. Their fate has been decided, their 'free will' taken away? What's interesting is the WK's response: Gandalf fortells that 'nothingness' awaits him, he throws back his hood to reveal...? Quote:
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Finally, we have the second animal in the story whose thoughts are given. First was the fox in the woods of the Shire, curious about the doings of Hobbits, now we have the cock in Minas Tirith. This bird has no interest in 'wizardry or war' - he only feels welcome for the dawn: Quote:
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#44 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#45 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#46 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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(Can't believe you thought I couldn't talk my way out of that one ![]() |
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#47 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#48 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
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#49 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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To add a quick point to a long discussion [which I admittedly haven't read yet]:
This chapter highlights the importance of other characters' opinions in forming our own. We learn to love Faramir more from his reputation than his own deeds. This process started in Minas Tirith with Beregond's devoted attitude, and continues here with more from Beregond and love and love and admiration from soldiers and citizens alike. And hearing and seeing such a devoted response and a positive reflection, you end up loving the guy yourself. A phrase that particularly sticks with me is "he can master both beasts and men" - to be echoed later in the chapter as "he can govern man and beast". This is the description which I associate best with Faramir and by which I would describe him. This is the Aragorn in him - perhaps some Elvish blood but more so his steadfast will and courage, enough of it to go around the men and the beasts. His presence is not bright but it is very steady. Unfortunately his strength is not bottomless, and as the more he shares and the more it is drained the less he has for himself. It is astounding though how much he could accomplish before running out though.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#50 | |
Dead Serious
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I think you'd be right about loving Faramir more for his rumour than his deeds if you're referring to Pippin. If you're referring to us, the readers, then I think you have to take into account that we've already met him in Book IV and have a pretty favourable impression of him from there--both because of his actions to Frodo but also because those actions are deliberately contrasted there favourably against Boromir.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#51 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#52 |
Dead Serious
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Four chapters into Book V, we're also more than half way through the page count: there's a parallel between the slow, almost burdensome pace of the early chapters and the torrid rush through the later chapters and the content of each section. "The Siege of Gondor" is the very nadir of hope in the narrative. Even Gandalf, though he goes around cheering the hearts of men during the siege and resists the Witch-king at the gates, is arguably at his most hopeless. We see this when he falters at the news that Frodo has gone to Cirith Ungol (of all places) with Gollum (of all guides). And perhaps we see it in his much previously-discussed treatment of Denethor.
The fact that we see things through Pippin's eyes always means we don't quite get a full view of things, but I almost wonder if Tolkien is pulling us a bit closer to our viewpoint than usual here. Everything is almost claustrophobic. Wherever knowledge might help us understand, it's hidden away. Thus we see Denethor snap from being proud but involved and rational to utterly bereft of hope. Obviously, the grievous injury to Faramir (another sapping of hope, since we, the readers, share the sentiment that he is the hope of Gondor's future) shakes him, but we are tellingly given the information that Denethor's change comes during the night AFTER Faramir has been brought back. Any elucidation regarding the Anor-Stone must wait till a similar chapter. Likewise, the hope offered by Beregond defending Faramir (likened above to Sam defending Frodo) isn't actually shown here. Pippin rushes away, leaving Beregond with the dilemma of following orders or saving Faramir, but we don't actually see his choice. For all we know, as Pippin rushes off, Beregond is going to do the dutiful thing (one might say "the Gondorian thing" in a land ofnkess tradition...). But the very last line is the eucatastrophe of Book V: Rohan has come in the nick of time.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#53 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Heralded by a cock crowing, welcoming the dawn. Not just Rohan; the Sun has come at last after days of opressive Darkness and despair. (And of course, to Tolkien, a symbolic reference to the greatest eucatastrophe of them all) When the narrative returns to this point after a chronological retrograde in the next chapter, "For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled" (PJ really, really effed things up by shooting all of the Siege aside from the breaking of the Gate in broad daylight)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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