Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Which I suppose means that it would be within his power not to use his gift Night 1. Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1? I would understand some amount of hesitation given that Elendil had no Day activity to base suspicions off of, and given the number of Gifteds and their various useful powers he may have decided it would be wiser not to shoot the village in the foot with a potentially disastrous Night 1 selection.

If we go with this, that's why it's vital to start with a revealed Amandil. If Elendil doesn't start from a known innocent, that runs the risk of him choosing a KM as a dream recipient. If a KM is a recipient, a bold one with a pack confident they can get rid of Elendil within 1 night or 2, could actually bluntly reveal "I was a recipient and ____ was the dream, is innocent."

This could be disastrous because Elendil wouldn't be able to refute the recipient's reveal. If the KM just tells the truth about the dream being innocent, that person can't refute "That's right I am innocent." KMs whack Elendil first, then the dreamed innocent the KM received next. And the KM recipient has the added defense "they're trying to get Elendil first, not go after the target or recipient" to stay alive longer. By the time everyone realizes the recipient was a KM it might be too late to correct it, all because the KM correctly admits to being the dream-recipient and then tells the truth about the target.

[Mänwe]

More likely that Elendil picks an ordo the first night than it is for any King's Men to correctly kill Elendil in the first night.

But yes, Amandil to reveal himself- with the hope the Ranger is watching to save him in the night.

As for Isuldur's power, I would say not to reveal himself- if we already have Amandil making himself known we're giving away two roles! You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Also- did anyone give any thoughts on my idea for Isildur to just save whoever gets lynched today given the simple odds at this point in the village?

It's a gamble. I get that the odds favor an innocent being saved, but that's a waste of Isildur's gift. Might as well do what Eomer suggested and not vote, or deliberately tie, which will result in no death.

However, I'm always reluctant to avoid voting, even with slim suspicions. Votes are the only weapon for the village.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Finally- are we ready for Amandil to step up?

Is Amandil ready to step up?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Currently Elendil has one dream and sent it to one person. I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure. From what I understand, Elendil can double-check and send the same name to a different person, but that's wasting dream choices. And further, there would be no way for Elendil to know which person was telling the truth if he sent 2 people the same name and they relayed conflicting info.

I don't see what you mean by saying "I would hope Elendil could rely on the information, but there's no way for Elendil to know this for sure." Elendil gets his dream result from the Moddess, and shares them with the person of their choice, right? I feel like I'm missing something elementary. I have caffeine in front of me now though, so that's a help.

And what happens to this plan if Amandil dies? He cannot be protected consecutive Nights.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

As for Isuldur's power, I would say not to reveal himself- if we already have Amandil making himself known we're giving away two roles! You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

Known innocents are always a headache for baddies, but I do share some reluctance in having two Gifteds out so early in the game. Then again, there is Anarion. That's a lot on his shoulders, though.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Manwe

You are wanting a very transparent game aren't you tp?

Heh- just willing to float any idea to see if it'll give an edge.

And to Boro- yes, exactly, that's what I mean about Elendil electing not to have a Night 1 dream. Strategically he may have thought it better to play it safe and wait for Amandil to show up etc. I think really it's down to personality.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Elendil gets his dream result from the Moddess, and shares them with the person of their choice, right?

Nope. Elendil doesn't see any results. He chooses the dreamer and the dream and then it's out of his hands. He gets nothing. It's a very interesting role.

Originally Posted by Eomer

About Isildur's power to save a lynchee, what would happen if no-one in the village voted on Day One? Is this against the rules?

Hmmmm.... I'll have to think about that when I'm less distracted....

[Pomegranate]

I'd also feel bad not voting - votes tend to be the main thing to be read and interpreted, and somehow only relying on seer powers would make me feel like I'm cheating

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nope. Elendil doesn't see any results. He chooses the dreamer and the dream and then it's out of his hands. He gets nothing. It's a very interesting role.

The missing link. I was stuck on this from the Admin Thread:

Every Night [Elendil] reveals the role of one other player to a third player.

By "reveals the role", I was reading that Elendil himself would know what he revealed. All righty then.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I had such plans for this role, too - I was going to be all quasi-Seerish and get murdered. Sigh.

Oh well. Hi, I'm your friendly neighborhood Amandil.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And to Boro- yes, exactly, that's what I mean about Elendil electing not to have a Night 1 dream. Strategically he may have thought it better to play it safe and wait for Amandil to show up etc. I think really it's down to personality.

True, but if there was a Night 1 recipient it would be easy enough for Elendil to check if Amandil reveals today. Send the Night 1 recipient to Amandil, and if KM then the possible damage would be minimized. If not, then Elendil knows he can trust the dream sent to the Night 1 recipient.

Edit: crossed with Shasta...well then

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Regarding Isildur... eh. I'm kind of on Inzil's side in that I'm also reluctant to have two Gifted revealed this early, and I also feel like we should still lynch someone today. But then I'm well known to be bloodthirsty.

[Eönwë]

So, it looks like there's been more useful discussion that usual for a Day 1. And because of this, I'm inclined to believe that the phantom is innocent. It seems unlikely that a KM would suggest such ideas, but then, it is tp we're talking about.

As for the actual discussion points, I think we've already agreed that Amandil revealing himself would be a good idea. Of course, it's completely his choice, but it's definitely better for him to die when we still have gifteds.

As for the different ideas for dream revelations, it seems to me that the three options (that have been thought of so far) have their drawbacks. In the non-cooperative natural state, nothing significant happens unless someone reveals a KM, though this could be abused at a later stage by a desperate KM to buy an extra day. It also means that we could get unreliable claims of innocence when someone is on the verge of being lynched, which could be quite chaotic.

In phantom's 'three evils' suggestion, there's the possibility that Elendil could take the identities to his grave, as with the usual Seer, because in this scenario, he effectively acts as the normal Seer.

In the 'open chain' suggestion, where all the dreams are public, there's the problem that the chain can be permanently broken and gifteds can be exposed.

So I'm not sure what I think is best yet.

edit: *Waves at Shastamandil*

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I had such plans for this role, too - I was going to be all quasi-Seerish and get murdered.

Not if I have anything to say about it. I need my darling psychic. *nuzzles you*

I'm here, kiddos. I'll be home in two hours or so and can actually manage more than just snark, but I am certainly around and reading.

[the phantom]

Shasta- you lucky dog! When looking over the roles I can tell you Amandil is the one that jumped out at me- "Gah! I should've looked this over sooner and begged the Moddess for that role! I could reveal immediately and push people around!"

But the task of pushing people around instead falls to you. So... any orders?

I assume you're nixing Eomer's idea for a no-vote after that last post.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Shasta- you lucky dog! When looking over the roles I can tell you Amandil is the one that jumped out at me- "Gah! I should've looked this over sooner and begged the Moddess for that role! I could reveal immediately and push people around!"

But the task of pushing people around instead falls to you. So... any orders?

I assume you're nixing Eomer's idea for a no-vote after that last post.

Well, yes. I don't feel like we should be wasting time - it almost always turns out poorly.

As for orders, though... hmm.

Dance for me, minions!

[Inziladun]

Ok, then. So Amandil is exposed. It's against my nature to trust Shasta, especially this early, but there you are.

So, what now? I would still say we ought to vote today.

x/d with all since #50.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Supposing the KMs do ignore me in favor of looking for Elendil, though - as far as I could tell, Elendil can reveal to the same person twice in a row.

Actually, scratch that train of thought. If the KMs think they can kill me off and negate a dream, it might actually be worth it to them. Probably a good idea to vary the recipients. Or am I wrong?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Question for the consensus - suppose Elendil reveals someone to me and they end up being Anarion or Isildur. Ought I mention giftedness? Or stick with innocence?

[Loslote]

Hi, everyone! Sorry I'm late. I got held up by a vicious pack of squirrels - I swear, I've never seen them this mad before - and I had to sneak around the back way just to get here. So, what's going on?

Oh.

Right.

That whole 'murder' thing. Bit of a downer, that. And I was so looking forward to a relaxing weekend! I suppose it's not a total waste, though - we've just got to take care of those nasty King's Men quickly, is all. What are we waiting for?

[/IC]

So. Not bad for a Day 1. Amandil is out already, which narrows our choice for lynchings - if we even decide to lynch anyone at all. I think this is shaping up quite well. I'll be online...basically from here on out.

EDIT: xed with a lot of people. Also, lynchings tonight. Got it. ^.^

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Supposing the KMs do ignore me in favor of looking for Elendil, though - as far as I could tell, Elendil can reveal to the same person twice in a row.

Per The Rules, it's no more than twice in a row.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Actually, scratch that train of thought. If the KMs think they can kill me off and negate a dream, it might actually be worth it to them. Probably a good idea to vary the recipients. Or am I wrong?

Sending to a different person each Night increases the odds of giving info to a baddie, but also could create havoc for them by having so much info in the hands of the village. I think it's the right way to go.

x/d with Shasta and Lottie

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Question for the consensus - suppose Elendil reveals someone to me and they end up being Anarion or Isildur. Ought I mention giftedness? Or stick with innocence?

Innocent should be enough.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Shasta

Dance for me, minions!

If you don't mind, some LotR characters would like to get in on the action.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Probably a good idea to vary the recipients. Or am I wrong?

If Elendil sent a dream Night 1 then logically he'll send you his dream recipient tonight. If you find the target innocent then you declare "Person X is innocent" and then they step up and say "and my Night 1 dream was Person Y and they were innocent/guilty".

Unless someone can think of a better suggestion I figure that's certain to happen.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Question for the consensus - suppose Elendil reveals someone to me and they end up being Anarion or Isildur. Ought I mention giftedness? Or stick with innocence?

I suppose just stick with innocence, for, as I said earlier, the KMs will logically avoid killing dream choices because they're guaranteed not to be Elendil, but if you straight up tell them "Gifted" then maybe they will take the opportunity?

Or actually... Hmm... I dunno if they would or not. It still doesn't rid them of Elendil.

But of course if they do successfully bump off Elendil they know where the next Gifted can be found. Bleh... I need time to think about this more clearly.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Sending to a different person each Night increases the odds of giving info to a baddie, but also could create havoc for them by having so much info in the hands of the village. I think it's the right way to go.

The reason I mentioned it is, supposing Anarion protects me tonight, I'll be alive and unprotected tomorrow night. If Elendil elects to send me a second dream in order to have the public voice, the KM might bite the bullet and kill me when it will do the most damage by negating a dream.

Also, duly noted - "innocent" it is. Now that that's out of the way, it's probably a good idea to move on. I'll need to reread the thread - no one's jumped out at me yet.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sending to a different person each Night increases the odds of giving info to a baddie, but also could create havoc for them by having so much info in the hands of the village. I think it's the right way to go.

But, if Elendil sends his dreams, not to Amandil, but to those (s)he trusts - and (s)he would send them to the players (s)he trusted, for fear of sending the dream to a KM - then the KMs would be able to rule out (in a rough guess of who has been dreamed) the people who have received dreams. Similarly, the KMs would know, if they receive a dream, that Elendil is one of the people who trust him/her, and their list of people who could be Elendil would be shortened that much more. I think spreading out the information among too many people and then trying to piece it together afterwards leaves to much risk of the KMs getting a better grasp of the situation than we get.

EDIT: xed with tp and Shasta.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

But, if Elendil sends his dreams, not to Amandil, but to those (s)he trusts - and (s)he would send them to the players (s)he trusted, for fear of sending the dream to a KM - then the KMs would be able to rule out (in a rough guess of who has been dreamed) the people who have received dreams. Similarly, the KMs would know, if they receive a dream, that Elendil is one of the people who trust him/her, and their list of people who could be Elendil would be shortened that much more. I think spreading out the information among too many people and then trying to piece it together afterwards leaves to much risk of the KMs getting a better grasp of the situation than we get.

But keeping the dreams going to one person risks that person getting killed, doesn't it?

[Eönwë]

Wait, so does that mean that we've decided on the open reveal option? Doesn't that mean that the KMs get a free kill every Night (unless Anarion is cunning)?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Do you think there's much of a chance that Elendil passed up his dream opportunity out of fear that he would reveal a Gifted to a Baddie on Night 1?

This is an interesting idea to entertain, but we can't really do much about it, and it won't affect us until some sort of reveal.

[Brinniel]

Well, toDay seems a bit busier than most Day Ones I recall. At least I wasn't expecting to process so much info right away. But hey, substance is always a good thing. My brain's just feeling slightly overwhelmed...I don't know whether to attribute that to my headache or lack of WWing over the years. Maybe both.

Originally Posted by phantom

Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

This could work as long as these lists are truly regarded by everyone else as random. Because the only drawback I can see is that if other people start using these lists to judge guilt or innocence, that could lead to a big mess. Innocents have a difficult enough time guessing one guilty player early on so it's unlikely that they'll be able to give a strong reasoning to why they think three players are evil. So voting against someone simply because of their list could lead to a lot of innocent lynches. And later on, we certainly can't use a known wolf's lists to identify innocents.

As for not voting, as difficult as it may be to identify the baddies on Day 1, I'm not sure not voting anyone would be a good idea. For one thing, if anyone ends up missing the deadline toMorrow to vote, they would be modfired.

Also, was anything mentioned regarding retractable votes? It would be good to know considering retractable votes can greatly impact the outcome of a lynch.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Shasta

supposing Anarion protects me tonight, I'll be alive and unprotected tomorrow night. If Elendil elects to send me a second dream in order to have the public voice, the KM might bite the bullet and kill me when it will do the most damage by negating a dream.

I doubt Elendil will send you consecutive dreams because of that exact situation. But rather, he'll start at the end of the chain instead.

Meaning:
Night 1: player X finds player Y innocent
Night 2: Shasta finds player X innocent
Night 3: player Y finds player Z ???

So basically, Anarion protects you tonight and the next night he protects player Y (the person dreamed of on Night 1, assuming there was a dream and that the dream was innocent).

If player Y is guilty, then player X is selected to receive a second dream and will be protected by Anarion.

If Amandil finds player X to be guilty tonight, however, that will demand a restarting of the chain. And if the baddies don't kill Amandil Night 3 then Elendil can send him another dream Night 4 (under Anarion's protection) connecting him to the random dream he selected Night 3, thus restarting the chain.

(x-posted with many)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

This could work as long as these lists are truly regarded by everyone else as random.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this. I think it's pretty neutral in terms of the rest of the gameplay if they are regarded as actually random, since it affects everyone the same way.

[Loslote]

Also, if we're ever going to use those lists, toDay would be the Day. After all, we know (almost for sure) that someone got a dream, and that Elendil didn't know who Amandil was. So...

Random People Who, If I Had Dreamed Them, Would Be Guilty - Or At Least Not Innocent
Eonwe
Pomegranate
Zil

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Not Innocent People If I Saw Them Under The Pale Moonlight
Boro
Lottie
Manwe

Fair enough.

[the phantom]

So, does anyone see a problem with the dream target/recipient outline I presented three posts up? If not then I suggest we assume it is in operation.

(I realize Elendil may feel like I'm taking away his freedom or something, but I think it makes sense to have him serve the village in a predictable and organized manner rather than shoot from the hip, particularly if he doesn't have ample time to strategize. Similarly, I hope you don't think I sabotaged your game too much by clamoring for a reveal, Shasta.)

Anyway, yeah, my list of three... I'll just go with the 3 I mentioned earlier, except one of them is the revealed Amandil so that would be just stupid. So... Inzil, Nerwen, Lottie then.

[Eönwë]

So, it looks like my didn't factor in last Night's dream when considering the positives and negatives of either Elendil-plan. The chain seems unbreakable as long as a dream goes through.

Three-people random list

Pros
*Keeps those found innocent safe.
*Elendil has more people to hide among.

Cons
*General knowledge dies with Elendil- each person given a dream could only know one identity, and so any claims would be impossible to prove until one of the two dies.
*Elendil has to reveal at some point to be of any use.

Neutral
*Gives everyone amnesty from their 3-people choice.



Open reveals

Pros
*People have innocents whose opinions they can trust.
*Wolves can be revealed straight away.
*Elendil doesn't have to reveal.

Cons
*Elendil has a dwindling number of people to hide behind.
*Gifteds become known innocents, and so become easier targets for the KMs.



I have an alternative suggestion: We do the 3-person thing, but when someone finds a KM they reveal. A person on the good side would die anyway that Night, so at least they take down a KM with them. And if there's a counter-claim of some sort, at least we have a known KM between the two of them.


edit: x-ed with Shasta

[Inziladun]

I'll go with:

1.Sally
2.Morsul
3.Nerwen

x/d with Steve

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

So, does anyone see a problem with the dream target/recipient outline I presented three posts up? If not then I suggest we assume it is in operation.

(I realize Elendil may feel like I'm taking away his freedom or something, but I think it makes sense to have him serve the village in a predictable and organized manner rather than shoot from the hip, particularly if he doesn't have ample time to strategize. Similarly, I hope you don't think I sabotaged your game too much by clamoring for a reveal, Shasta.)

Anyway, yeah, my list of three... I'll just go with the 3 I mentioned earlier, except one of them is the revealed Amandil so that would be just stupid. So... Inzil, Nerwen, Lottie then.

Oh, the usual attitude of "Dangit Phantom, stop being so controlling!" is there, and I admit I do have the urge to go entirely contrary to the plan just to prove I can, but as stated already, my big plan was to look very Seer-ish and then get murdered early, so I imagine I'm helping out more in this capacity.

[Pomegranate]

Lottie, Eonwe, Inzil. Now some more catching up - I'll need to go to bed pretty soon, it's been a long day, and thus will have to vote. I think I will indeed vote - if you guys decide it's better to not have a lynch today, you can just tie it.

[Boromir88]

My random, but perhaps not so random guilty list of 3:

Eomer
Inzil
Manwe

I say not so random because these are also the Top 3 I've been considering voting for.

Who I have no interest to vote for today:

Shasta
the phantom
Pom

Everyone else is undetermined/neutral.

Will explain these reasons after I eat.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Shasta

Oh, the usual attitude of "Dangit Phantom, stop being so controlling!" is there, and I admit I do have the urge to go entirely contrary to the plan just to prove I can

Heh heh... I'm going to claim I behaved somewhat tolerably based on the fact that I was nice enough to ask everyone else what they thought before getting more insistent.

I suppose the real question is, if everyone had given a resounding "no", would I have responded "whatever, do it anyway".

[Morsul the Dark]

King's Cronies
Manwe
Boro
Nerwen

I think I read these two pages 4 times before I figured out what was going on so simple yet I couldn't digest it.

On a personal note number one priority for me not having tunnel vision this time around. It's gotten me into trouble in the past.

See phantom's dream plan seems solid and good for the villiage but revealing Isildur as well? That's just a bad idea I think.

I will be back in a bit gym and groceries...


Edit: bolded list
I'll be annoyingly present Friday, day off.

[Inziladun]

My (random?) list notwithstanding, at the moment Steve is probably my top lynch pick, mainly because I think not voting plays to the baddies more often than not.

[Loslote]

Of the list I posted earlier, Eonwe topped the list because I actually did (and still do) feel a tiny bit off about him. Nothing anywhere near suspicion, just Day 1 guy feeling. Pomegranate made it on because I have always liked...her?...name. Zil was complete hat-draw.


All this goes to say, if I had to vote now, I'd go for Eonwe. I just feel like your posts are a bit too...careful.

EDIT: xed with Zil. Um. Oh. Right. Hi there.