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#41 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, I'm sure they'll claim it was all down to their boycott - though what effect that claim will have - whether it will be believed by the studios & lead to a situation where only movies (& possibly in the longer term TV series & books) that don't challenge religion get green-lighted - is something we'll have to wait & see about. Quote:
The point is, if we avoid importing aspects of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish/(fill in the blank) Deity into Eru, we have a character who actually is 'vengeful, spiteful & distant', not to mention a major league egotist, & probably the least interesting character Tolkien invented - & one, as I've argued before, who seems only to exist in order to make the Legendarium a monotheistic mythology. When he does crop up its to be thoroughly irritating & the worst kind of deus ex machina. |
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#42 | |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I've got no axe to grind here, I haven't seen it yet, and I prefer Tolkien to Pullman, myself. But movie success shouldn't just be measured on US box office takings alone. The Passion of the Christ, for example was a huge hit in the US but it was more or less a flop everywhere else.
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#43 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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New Line will have to make $250 million on TGC in order to recover only the expenses and marketing. If in over two weeks of release they've made only half of that, I'd bet a fiver on the wager that they'll not make $250 million. Any takers?
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#44 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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As for your caricature of Eru's acts of creation, it might be countered by a different caricature: a loving Eru gave the wonderful faculty of creativity to the Ainur, propounded a theme to them out of which they fashioned a great and beautiful thing, and even suffered one of them to attempt to distort and destroy the Music. Then he showed them the beautiful thing they had made and, in accordance with their wish, brought it into being so that they might enter it if they wished. Now, I don't wish to enter into a debate concerning the Ainulindale. But surely it will be granted that if a negative caricature is possible, so is a positive one. And I would say that neither is correct - the one is a humanist reading of the God of the Torah, the other a Christian reading of the God of the New Testament. Both bring in preconceived notions that derive from other sources than Tolkien's Legendarium. |
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#45 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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In short, I can't see New Line, even if they do just go into profit on TGC - & as I say I'm sure they will deciding to risk another half a billion on two more movies - especially as they haven't really turned much of a profit on anything they've produced since LotR. Quote:
As I've said before, I don't see any need for him to exist as a character - everything he does could be done by other characters or not done at all. The wrath of Ulmo is more acceptable & satisfying as justification for totalling Numenor than the intervention of a distant God who has finally decided to throw down his Newspaper & spank the naughty children.
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#46 |
Blithe Spirit
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Hmm... I will take your wager, Thenamir, because of Japan etc, and because the school holidays have only just started in a lot of European countries.
What's your axe against Pullman, out of interest? Is it because you see him as a rival to Tolkien? I ask because I just spent some time at the work Christmas dinner, talking to two colleagues who were big Tolkien fans in youth and now have turned against him, much preferring Pullman and seeing the Prof as long-winded and dull. I just don't feel the same way, I liked HDM a lot, but for me the trilogy just doesn't have the mythological grandeur and mystery of Middle Earth. I have no urge to find out more about Pullman's universe the way I did about Tolkien's when I first discovered it...I feel Pullman's already told me everything I need to know.
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#47 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Seriously, I suspect it won't make enough to make it worth taking the risk on making The Subtle Knife - not as, rightly or wrongly, TGC is percieved by the public as a flop. I think that if New Line have a spare $250,000,000 to throw about they'll throw it in PJ's direction. If its a choice between handing it over to Chris Weitz to make TSN or to Jackson to throw at The Hobbit they'll go for the latter, even if it only gets used to make Smaug a little bit more dragony, Lake Town a little more Lake Towny & the Lonely Mountain a little bit more Lonely Mountainy. Of course, it may be that the Hobbit duology makes so much money that New Line have no idea what to do with it, & so may decide to make TSN - though I suspect that given a choice they'd still use it to buy Jackson a solid gold trailer with a diamond encrusted toilet first... |
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#48 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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There have been so many articles published in the mainstream press the last three days about the Jackson kiss and make-up with New LIne that I cannot remember the source of the news ...... but ......... one interview with one of the principals was asked if the first two dismal weeks of box office returns on COMPASS helped facilitate the resolution and they said something to the effect that it certainly did not hurt Jacksons cause.
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#49 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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For those who are interested in my "wager" (sorry, no real money involved, we don't endorse gambling on the Downs!) after 18 days in release, the WORLDWIDE take for TGC is a mere $140,958,574. The box office for Christmas-release movies (such as TGC) always plummets after Christmas. I stand by my original assertion -- TGC will be a money loser for New Line. (And I raise my figurative wager to $100.
![]() By way of comparison/contrast, in similar timeframes in the USA alone Narnia made $153M, and FOTR $200M.
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#50 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Problem is we don't know how much NL actually spent on the movie - I've seen anything between $180 & $250 million, plus a good $50-60 million on promotion. Hence (& given NL's 'creative' approach to accounting) it will be difficult to know whether they go into profit or not. Still, & accepting what you say, you're ignoring TV & DVD sales. I still don't think they'll lose money on the project once the final numbers are in - but neither do I expect to see Lyra & co return to the big screen.
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#51 |
A Mere Boggart
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It's not worldwide takings as it only opened in Australia and New Zealand today. And in the UK there's a surge in film attendance between Christmas and New Year - and only two kid friendly big films out to compete for the parents' money so it's still got legs over here. It won't lose money (especially given that it's nowhere near DVD release yet) but the question is will it make enough profit for them to do some more films?
Personally, I think the story is far too complex for average film audiences who are used to simpler fare, the old black/white type themes. So I doubt studios will be taking a punt on sequels unless they can dumb down the other two novels to a more simplistic level. Audiences aren't really capable of dealing with metaphysics, Milton and Blake these days ![]()
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#52 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
Join Date: May 2001
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![]() Come on, 'fess up -- you're a secret teacher of English Literature somewhere, right? Someone who considers A Farewell To Arms a bit of light reading for a rainy afternoon? Who thinks War and Peace wasn't long enough? We've got your number now! Heat the tar! Pluck the chickens! ![]() EDIT: Australia? New Zealand? There are more people in TEXAS.
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The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius Last edited by Thenamir; 12-26-2007 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Another gratuitous US-centric swipe at the rest of the world :) |
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#53 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I think they've gone so far out of their way to avoid it being 'offensive' to anyone that it basically isn't about anything at all. What they should have done was either forget the whole idea of filming the books at all, or just gone the whole hog & risked offending some of the potential audience. My suspicion is that they bought the rights without knowing anything about the book, or what it contained - it was a 'childrens' book' by a guy from Oxford (like those Tolkien/Lewis guys... ) - & it was only once they'd got the thing & started to look at it that they decided 'D***! there's no way we can put this out as it is!'
Of course, once you start 'removing' or altering a story 'to avoid offending the audience' its easy to go too far & end up with a movie that is simply so bland & inoffensive that all you have at the end is two + hours of special effects connected by a simplistic storyline that nobody wants to see. Of course, they haven't announced that there won't be a sequel, so we can't rule one out (or even a mini-series) - but my suspicion is that the reason for that is commercial - it would badly affect the TV & DVD rights if it was made plain that there won't be anymore. Who wants to watch the first part of a story that won't be completed? Mind you, look at Firefly - that flopped on TV, but was so popular on DVD that they got the finacing to make a movie. Of course, the Serenity movie only cost a tiny fraction of what The Subtle Knife/Amber Spyglass would... |
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#54 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I saw it today and I thought it was good but not great. The acting was well above average for a fantasy film, and lots of the visualisation was very fine.
What let it down was that they rushed through the story at bewildering speed, but also, that the score just wasn't a patch on LotR. It was cheesy bog-standard "fantasy epic" stuff. It's when you don't have it that you realise what a difference a really stirring score can make.
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#55 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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The whole COMPASS thing is dead as far as future film sequels go. What killed the franchise? Poor box office return on investment and the announced Jackson/Middle-earth deal. The nails are in the coffin and the body is now in the ground. Accept it.
And I find it interesting that some here castigate Jackson for his failue to repeat the LOTR box office numbers with KING KONG but are clinging to these COMPASS grosses as something better. They are not. In the end, COMPASS will not even take in what KONG did despite a budget in the same stratosphere. btw- KONG made a profit. Will COMPASS? I doubt it. |
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#56 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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FYI, while Kong failed to do the same kind of numbers as any of the LOTR movies, it cost $207M to make and the worldwide gross (not including DVD or other sales) was $550M -- a 250% return on investment, and #43 on the all-time worldwide box-office -- better than The Empire Strikes Back, not as good as Ratatouille. I'd say that was pretty doggone good.
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#57 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Yes, but Kong is still dreadful. I wonder how well it would have done if Jackson hadn't made LotR & they couldn't sell it as 'The new movie from the multi-Oscar winning director of the LotR trilogy!' I saw it once, but nothing could induce me to sit through it again.....
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#58 |
Spectre of Capitalism
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As an interesting aside to Lal's comments about the tastes of the moviegoing public, I have perused the list at www.boxofficemojo.com, and found that of the THIRTY top grossing movies in the USA, only three (Titanic, Passion of the Christ, and Forrest Gump) could be called realistic -- in that none involved elements of the fantastic (leaving aside the fact that Forrest Gump didn't really exist...). The rest are either Sci-Fi (Star Wars, Jurassic Park), Fantasy (LOTR, Harry Potter), or Animated (Shrek, Finding Nemo).
Maybe we really are as dumb as Lal thinks we are. ![]()
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#59 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Does fantasy or science fiction equal stupidity? Thats quite a jump.
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#60 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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Perhaps, according to some...
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#61 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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It now looks like the overseas box office will NOT save COMPASS from disaster. Here is the latest from an industry year end review.
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#62 |
Blithe Spirit
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Actually, the foreign figures are only up to December 16th, when the film had only been out a week in most countries. So I still say, hold your horses....
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#63 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Lalaith.. yes I see that. Only three days of revenues in Great Britain for example. I also see that it will not even open in Japan until next March and that should be another 50 mil or so in the coffers. So the film will get its budget back but will it get the twice over budget necessary to break even? I guess time will tell. But I still cannot see New Line laying out another $100+ million for a sequel with the 2 more Middle-earth movies on their plate and big budgets for those.
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#64 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Yes, but its sad. And it puts a question mark over the future of fantasy films. Yes, the LotR series will continue, & so will the Narnia movies, but fantasy movies generally?
Of course, the problem was that NL bottled out ('got scared'). They may have set out wanting to avoid offending Christians, but they ended up going too far & trying to avoid bothering anyone - & they succeeded: in the end no-one was bothered by the movie. Trouble was not enough people were bothered about the movie. Anyway, I don't see a sequel to TGC being made. What I do see is a slew of sub LotR movies which just repeat the standard formula of 'band of unlikely heroes must unite to defeat the DARK LORD? blah blah blah'. What I'm most interested in seeing is the response to Pullman's sequel to HDM, 'The Book of Dust' which is supposed to be out in a couple of years. I've already heard of HDM being removed from some school libraries - can we expect a boycott of the next book? EDIT Actually, it brings up a bigger question - should the ideas & concepts that fantasy explores, whether in book or movie form, be restricted? Isn't fantasy, at heart, about asking the question 'What if?' If a fantasy novel or movie can't present a secondary world in which 'God' is not only evil, but actually a fake, then what can it do - what limits do we set on fantasy worlds - because whatever limits we set on fantasy worlds we are actually setting on the human imagination - we're saying 'You are not allowed to imagine 'X'.' - effectively Pullman's point. It could be argued that those who object to Pullman's work on 'moral' grounds (not pointing at anyone in particular) are actually objecting to fantasy in general, & to the human imagination in particular. After all, in what way is imagining a secondary world in which 'God' is a fake from whom humanity must liberate itself & find its own way forward different from imagining a world in which the sun is green, or in which animals can speak with humans? (For the record, I still found HDM (the book - haven't seen the movie yet) increasingly dull as it went on (nearly said 'progressed'!!) & found PP's repetitive haranguing just annoying by the end, so I'm not putting this argument forward as praise of PP.
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#65 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Which brings me back to my point about it not being simple black/white fare. Pullman worked with some very ambiguous material from Blake and Milton, and raised some difficult questions, plus he threw a lot of theoretical physics into the mix. This is not standard blockbuster fantasy fare. It wears intellectual challenge on its sleeve, which is possibly why the Archbishop of Canterbury recommends it so highly - in contrast to the often dreary dull "Christian storybooks" (I read more than my share in childhood) His Dark Materials raises deep and important questions. It's more likely to have someone running to read their bible again than just about any other fantasy you can think of - including Lewis, who I didn't even twig onto as having any 'message' until I was told (that's what Neil Gaiman thought, too). Incidentally, yes, I do think film audiences the world over are incapable of complex messages in films. Otherwise it would be Ingmar Bergman and Lars Von Trier films which topped the charts. And I'm broadly the same as anyone in that respect. ![]()
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#66 |
Blithe Spirit
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Golden Compass was a very unintellectual film adaptation of a very intellectual book. There was very little in the way of extended dialogue, for example, just look at rushed exposition compared to the leisurely and quite challenging intro to FotR. If anyone got any Blake, Milton or biblical stuff out of the Golden Compass I´d be very surprised...and I agree, btw that it did send me rushing back to all three to remind myself of references when I first read the trilogy.
I also agree, I think the film-makers bottled out. Not just about the religion business but about all the intellectual concepts....the nature of a daemon, the bear culture, all that stuff. I felt Jackson bottled out too, to a certain extent (mostly in the Two Towers) but he did show understanding of the nature of heroic epic, for which I am sure Tolkien would have been grateful.
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#67 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Sadly, Pullman has just recently been pulled from high school libraries in one local catholic school board here--despite the recommendation from the library committee that it not be banned! Quote:
Perhaps, just perhaps, this is a case where it would have been preferrable for the film makers not to observe the independence of the three books, but to be more leisurely at explaining it all and integrate the three. After all, PJ moved Boromir's death and that hasn't drawn nearly the outcries that some of his other 'creative rewritings' have. The GC writers could have introduced Will and his universe a bit, even Mary and hers in explication of dust and alternate universes, spent some time depicting just what this heresy of Asrael's was all about--make us feel just how revolutionary and upsetting this idea would be for Lyra's world. And why the native northern cultures were so dead set against these intruders but accepted the Intercessionists. Does it need some other narrator's eyes than Lyra's? I did like the way dust was represented both when a character was killed and when Lyra used the Compass. Of course, visually the movie is finely done, very finely done. To one who has seen Oxford even briefly, the alternate version of its towers and buildings was most intriguing. I wished there was more to Lyra's childhood with the Gyptians as there is quite enough proof there about the existence of 'Others' even within Lyra's world, although I suppose that single early scene with the children battling establishes her character. And I so much enjoyed the book's descriptions of the Gyptian ship as she sailed down the Thames and hid out. There's a love of a grand river there that was completely eclipsed by the movie. And Mrs. Coulter's party is such a grand way to express the nasty business of this world and that was missed too. Of course, right now I have no idea just where the first movie should have ended, if all this was to be incorporated. Still, it is possible that the complexity of the ideas could have been given more justice if they had been spread out more between three movies and not crammed into one. However, I must add that those here who've seen the movie but not read the book thoroughly enjoyed the movie and its pacing. But it doesn't begin with a sweet and beguiling Shire so there isn't that to draw the audience in.
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#68 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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#69 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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However, the over and above the production budget, you also have the marketing and distribution budget- which can, sometimes, be as great or greater, especially if they run TV spots in heavy rotation.
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#70 | |
Dread Horseman
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#71 | |
A Mere Boggart
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I wish I could add more to your comments on the how the book was translated to film, but I still haven't been able to snatch the time to see it, so it will have to wait ![]() ![]() The most important bit to get right for me was Lyra as she's such a wonderful character (her and Hermione Granger are two of the best female characters created lately). I saw the first five minutes of the film in a sneaky internet 'leak' and I was very impressed just with that bit...
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#72 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Another perspective:
http://www.kansascity.com/entertainm...ry/418711.html Quote:
It all leads to the big question - why did TGC flop in the US & fly in the rest of the world? And, of course, the ROW is a lot bigger than the US, & its entirely possible for a movie to do zero business in America & still make massive profits. Or in other words, what we might see is a Subrtle Knife movie that gets a massive world-wide release, but only a limited release in the US.... Of course its only very very slightly possible we'll see a SK movie, but not likely. New Line haven't announced the sequel yet, but surely they'd want it in cinemas in 2009 - avoiding the 2010/2011 releases of TH & its sequel - so they hardly have time unless they start virtually straight away (they were filming in Oxford last year when we were there for Oxonmoot in September, so principal photography would have to be done this year). Still, maybe its not all doom & gloom for NL on the TGC front....
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#73 | |
A Mere Boggart
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The figures are now also saying that The Golden Compass has outperformed Narnia in the UK, even on the opening figures.
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#74 |
Dread Horseman
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From what I hear, Compass will be a modest success, but it's unlikely that New Line will risk $200-300M on a sequel. For one thing, even if the overseas performance is huge -- and it's doing well, up to $187M as of this past weekend -- New Line sold the foreign distribution, so it won't see a big share of the foreign pie.
New Line typically does movies that are around $40M and under. They don't have the resources of a big studio to soak up the losses of a true loser. LotR was a big gamble for them, and it paid off. They'll probably get out of Compass with a modest profit, but I don't see them risking that kind of money again, especially with a seeming surefire Hobbit one-two punch in the pipeline. Time will tell. Neither franchise will go forward until the strike's over. They have a script for SK, but I highly doubt they'd put it into production without the ability to do rewrites even if Compass was a blockbuster. |
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#75 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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It may come down to whether they have anything else beside TH & sequel which is worth doing - I suspect they'll hold on to the rights for SK & AS. Its still possible that TH won't be very good - though it won't lose money however bad it is because it will sell on the strength of LotR, but if it is poor & the sequel is no better, or worse, they could lose out on the whole package. If that happens something like SK, even if it only brings in a modest profit, might be considered worth doing. Again, I'm not expecting to see any GC sequels to be honest, but a lot of people seem to be assuming that TH & the follow up will be absolutely fantastic movies, make NL a fortune, & are even speculating on more M-e movies beyond them. Its entirely possible these movies will bomb & NL be left feeling grateful they have the other two Pullman options.... |
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#76 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I suspect that if the next two Middle-earth movies do less than a combined $US 1.5 billion at the box office, that any future fantasy film would face a very steep uphill climb at New Line. With the exception of the last 3 Star Wars films, the 2 ME films are about as sure thing as you can get in the film business.
Regarding COMPASS sequels, it is worth noting that with the exception of the LOTR films, many sequels see their box office numbers falling as the franchise is milked to the last drop for profits. So if they do the Compass sequels, I would not expect the budget to be quite as generous..... which of course probably makes for a far less spectacular and less marketable movie. Its a downward spiral that feeds on its own lack of success. |
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#77 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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I'm curious to see TGC, but not desperate - I enjoyed the book but the sequels spoiled it for me. I'm not interested at all in seeing the sequels, so I can speak objectively. NL are about making movies & if they have a property that will bring in even a modest profit - & here we have to focus on the DVD sales even more than the theatrical releases - they won't necessarily just throw it away. Even a limited theatrical release & quick DVD release could prove a worthwhile venture - particularly if they shoot the two sequels back to back.
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#78 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#79 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Variety http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...goryid=13&cs=1 reckons TGC will at least make back its production costs (& possibly also its promo budget - depending on which account you believe of how much they spent) so it looks like everything it makes from DVD/TV sales will be clear profit.
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#80 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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The Hobbit itself will do well, but if they do this 'bridge' film I predict it will be a disappointment to the Hollywood accountants - a vast proportion of the audience will go to save themselves the bother of reading the books, so why will they be bothered about something 'made up'? Ordinary Joe isn't in love with Hobbits and Elves like we are ![]() Quote:
![]() Sequels, if they come along quickly enough, mop up even more numbers as they get in a huge chunk of audience who just want to see what happens and have been varied along with the hype. But if they're left that little bit too long in the making, they can be a disappointment if they fail to live up to 110% of the hype - see Phantom Menace ![]()
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