4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

I got off to a good start but then got bogged down with some other things. I think I'll post the comments I have so far, which mainly address the easier early parts.

I think I prefer my selection of LQ vs. AAm (see my post above) as the basic text paragraph by paragraph. For much of the chapter, AAm is the fuller (and later, I believe) text, so taking LQ as the basis throughout means breaking it up with a lot of insertions from AAm. I think it’s better to take full sections from AAm. So, for instance, I would be inclined to start the chapter with AAm section 30, rather than start with LQ section 18, only to switch to AAm after a few sentences.

CE-SL-01: This addition is not needed if we take up the emendation (as indeed we must) from AAm* (given in the notes on AAm), where the change was apparently specifically made to remove Melkor’s creation of the Balrogs:

We must similarly take up the emendation from AAm* in the following section.

Thus, my text:

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>

CE-EX-03: I’m not sure I agree that this needs to be added to explicitly motivate the council. It would make sense to add it if by changing from AAm to LQ here, we somehow missed out on a similar explanation from LQ, but that’s not the case; LQ has a section telling the same stuff, essentially, as in AAm sections 30-31, and then moves on to the council without comment (the motivation being implied, I think). A very minor point, and certainly not one I feel strongly about, but in general I prefer not to break up the texts without good reason.

CE-EX-04: There’s probably a lot to say about the Cuivienyarna, but first I should repeat that I agree in principle that it would be good to include it. I would not that I prefer a slightly different placement for it, where I think it is less disruptive to the text. My version has here:

{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.

In other words, I would place the Cuivienyarna after AAm sections 37 and 38, which allows those paragraphs to form a complete thought before diverting our attention to the legend. One might, I suppose, object to the slight atemporality of mentioning that the first sound the Elves heard was the sound of water before the Cuivienyarna tells that they awaken, but that atemporality is there anyway since the very first sentence of the Cuivienyarna returns to the time “when their first bodies were being made”.

I’d also note, and this is a small and very minor point, that I see no reason to import the first sentence from LQ section 20 to replace the beginning of AAm section 37; as in my version, I prefer to use sections 37-38 of AAm in their entirety.

Now we come to the hard question of the status of the Cuivienyarna. I think the evidence shows that Tolkien did not intend this to be (necessarily) the “real” story of the awakening of the Elves, in all its details. He noted on the typescript itself:

Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.

Then there’s the footnote attached to the statement that the Elvish words for “one”, “two” and “three” came from the names of Imin, Tata, and Enil:

The Eldarin words referred to are Min, Atta (or Tata), Nel. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had no names until they had developed language, and were given (or took) names after they had devised numerals (or at least the first twelve).

Which shows that he considered at least some details of the legend to be likely “untrue”. And finally, the story is referred to both in its title and in “Quendi and Eldar” as a legend. That doesn’t mean it’s not “true”, of course, but it does mean that Tolkien is not telling us that it’s true.

All of which is to say that I have a nagging feeling that we must insert something to set the legend apart as just that, and I’m not sure that including the title is enough. I would suggest that we might use Tolkien’s own note from the typescript as an additional subtitle:

CE-EX-04 <Q&E
The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi
(Cuivienyarna)
<Q&E note to Cuivienyarna[A] surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore>
While their first bodies were being made ...

CE-SL-06, -07: I wonder if it’s not better simply to remove this bit rather than make this editorial addition:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and later the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars[.]{, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-06 - CE-EX-23: As a general comment, I think the MT material here and following feels very jarring and out of place. These texts are very much Tolkien, in his own voice, commenting on his story and world, and inserting large parts of this into the story itself feels like a bit of an abuse of those texts to me. It would be different if the MT texts in question provided critical components of the narrative, but mostly they just explain and contemplate the narrative.

If the decision is to keep this material, I think ArcusCalion’s suggestion of making it a separate section with its own sub-heading is a good one, but I think it will need a lot more work. My vote would be not to include it here. Perhaps if a coherent and self-sufficient text can be made of it, it could be separated and put elsewhere, for instance as an appendix?

[Findegil]

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

I do not mind if we start with LQ §18 or AAm §30 and if you prefer AAm that is okay for me, but the more detailed description of growth that had been checked seems worth the interruption of the text for me. What about this:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; …

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

CE-SL-01: Do I understand rightly, that you suppose to leave that detailed description of the Balrogs including their nature and physical exterior out yust because it would mean an insertion into a text composition? To this I am strongly in opposition and the ‘corollary’ to our rules is with me on this issue I think. Anyhow ‘multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him’ can in my opinion not stand alone. How could he multiply spirits? Did What about this editing:

… CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he CE-SL-01b {multiplied}<LQ gahthered> the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §18 These were the {(}ealar{)}[Footnote to the text: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame.> But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>

CE-EX-04: You are right, however clver we may place the Cuivienyarna there will be some forward and backward jumping in time. For me your placement does worl equally well, so if the other don’t mind we can change the place.
A agree that when using AAm §37 - §38 it doesn’t make sense to use the first sentence of LQ §20. It made it to my text because LQ was my basic and I didn’t liked another change before the palce where I gave the Cuivienyarna.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

CE-SL-06: Interisting that I would like to remove the ‘sun of summer’ which you ememnd by putting in ‘later’ and I would hold the twilight times by editorial emendation. Are you sure that the concept has been abondaned that the sun was a sign for the waning of the first born and for the approach of the Dominion of Men? That was my reason to remove the ‘sun of summer’. But however that might be Elvish joy might always be mingled with some sadness, wo we might keep the ‘sun of summer’ as you proposed.
CE-SL-07: I agree that my amendations are a bit on the heavy side, what about only skiping the later part and adding in the same style as before only a ‘later’:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06b<editorial addition later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and CE-SL-07b<editorial addition later> the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy.{ For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-05.3: Oops, we have not marked this, but it must be removed since we don’t know for sure how the relations was:

{ 1085
§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, …

CE-EX-06 to CE-EX-23: (CE-EX-24 is actually the Sub-chapter heading, which we should discusse independently.) I agree that this enlargement might have become to big an exagreation for the text of our propose at this palce. I agree to remove it. But I think it should become the grain for building up a part of volume III.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

Agreed.

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

You have a good point here, and it's probably worth some heavier editing to keep that thread. However, in your first draft I find a redundancy between LQ and AAm, as we twice tell that Orome and Yavanna went to Middle-earth, and twice tell of Yavanna's grief. In LQ we are told that she "grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken" and in AAm she is "grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked". I think we either must lose one of those two statements, or somehow combine them.

How about:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

If we're including these bits from LQ, I suppose it might be better to take the first sentence from LQ as well, rather than AAm, so we could also do:

CE-01<LQ{§18 }In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

Either of those is fine with me.

CE-SL-01: No, I'm not opposed to interrupting the text for the sake of adding details (which we frequently do), but I thought that the motivation for this was to avoid saying, as in LQ, that Melkor created the Balrogs - since Tolkien had already emended AAm* for this same purpose, and since my general preference is for AAm as the later text, I thought we might use that. You're right that the LQ note offers some additional descriptive details, and I think your last suggestion here is good.

The word "multiplied", used in AAm*, is interesting, and I'm not sure what to make of it - it seems to me that the purpose of this emendation was to remove the statement that Melkor created the Balrogs, and yet it is still said that he "multiplied" them. In any case, given the (presumably later) "no more than 3 or at most 7" note, I agree that "multiplied" must go, and I think your suggestion to replace it with LQ's "gathered" is good.

CE-EX-04: OK, I think we're in agreement here.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

Yeah, it was not without some hesitation that I suggested that. But since the purpose of the author's note in this case is to tell us what, exactly, the Cuivienyarna is, and since that's also the purpose of a sub-title, I find it acceptable.

CE-SL-06, -07: I suppose this works. If you do find the "sun of summer" questionable, I'm OK with deleting it, but it seems quite plausible to me that the Elves would delight in the sun; certainly I don't think it's suggested anywhere that they had any antipathy toward it, even if it was associated with the rise of Men.

CE-EX-05.3: Good catch.

CE-EX-06 - -23: OK, good, agreed that this is better suited to volume III.

[gandalf85]

CE-01: If both of Aiwendil's suggestions are valid, I suppose we must choose for stylistic reasons. I prefer the first suggestion, starting with AAm.

CE-SL-01: I agree to Fin's latest change, and changing "multiplied" to "gathered".

CE-EX-04: I agree to Aiwendil's placement of the Cuivienyarna. I think including the information that this is a child's tale is a great idea, including it in the sub-heading works well.

CE-SL-06, 07: I agree with Fin's changes. I say we keep the sun of summer; the Elves are very much a mix of joy and sorrow, so the idea that they delight in the sun while simultaneously recognizing that it signals their downfall works very well.

CE-EX-06 - -23: Definitely agree with moving this to Volume III.

I have a few other recommendations/changes:

1. There are a few "k->c" changes which need to be made in this chapter, including "Valakirka->Valacirca", "Kuivienen->Cuivienen", "Helkar->Helcar", "Kalaquendi->Calaquendi" and "Orokarni->Orocarni". Also, the change "Ork->Orc" should be made throughout the whole document.

2.In §41:

And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)

Is this conversion right? What are we using as the length of a Valian year?

3. A few typos:

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him

"greatpower" should be two words and "entxeat" should be "entreat"

them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence

"Melkors" should be "Melkor's"

and on a powerlevel with the Valar

"powerlevel" should be two words.

4.

Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palúrien}[Kementári] and Vána, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar{ – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and}. Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else...

This is not in keeping with the later conception of Nienna, a goddess of compassion and empathy. I say we change it to: "Mandos {and Fui were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else..."

5.

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>

The idea of the Valar using "guile" doesn't feel in keeping with their later conception, I would simply change it to "overcome him by force {or guile}".

6. I would move the entire "The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar" section to Volume 3, to a chapter with other linguistic material.

[Findegil]

CE-01: I agree with gandalf85 to take Aiwendil’s first proposle. But more important we agree to include CE-EX-03 as well, or not?

CE-SL-06: I am okay with ‘sun of summer’ with the addition of ‘later’ especially since the heraldic signs of Fingoflin and his son was a winged sun. I assume that they toke them after they entered Middle-earth at the first rising of the sun and in a backward application based on Fingoflin’s claim as High King of the Noldor applied the similar heraldic signs to his father Finwë and grand-(who know how often)-sire Tata. We placed that heraldic sign of the House of Tata (NN ‘Patterns’ (the winged sun in the upper right corner, sign of the second House; Artist; no. 183; p. 186) into this chapter.

CE-EX-06: So this means we would let the text stand as following:

<AAm …
{§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
§42 }Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.}
{§43 }Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ... if ever haply they met.
{§44 }Thus it was that when Nahar neighed ... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.> CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Oromë appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Oromë. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Oromë. To me only is it given; for I am Oromë. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Oromë’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Oromë rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Oromë answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
<AAm{§45 }But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.>

I left the marker CE-EX-06 to make the reference of our discussion clear, but as we decisede know it is no change to the text.
I suppose that the subheading CE-EX-24 can be removed in this case as well, or moved to a later place according to that in AAm.

Gandalf85’s additional points:
1. k -> c: Agreed, I will add these cases to the list of general changes if they are not included already and search the entire text if they are done or not. But fully correct is ‘Cuiviénen’ what so ever it does replace.
While doing this I found that we use only once the word ‘Orocarni’ in the phrase: ‘the {Orokarni}[Orocarni], the Mountains of the East’. Even so that is normaly not the way we do it must we not in this case provide the translation to allowe the connection to the Red Mountains of the Ambarcanta and the Maps? I suppose we exchange ‘Mountains of the East’ with ‘Red Mountains in the East’ and name that change CE-EX-05.4.

2. See posting #42 the removal of this was named CE-EX-05.3.

3. Thank you for pointing these out.

4. You are right, I agree to your suggestion.

5. Agreed.

6. Yes, your wish seems in agreement with ArcusCalion’s latest suggestion and seeing the plans for Volume 3 I can easily agree to this as well. Let us discuss how we handle the original text (which includes a sort of extract of this) when Aiwendil comes to that passage.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-01: Yes, we should definitely include CE-EX-03

CE-EX-06: Looks good. I would simply remove CE-EX-24, especially since it has no basis in Tolkien's writings.

1. Agreed to the change CE-EX-05.4

2. Whoops, I must've missed that. Looks good to me.

[Aiwendil]

I continue to make my way through this slowly. Some more comments for now:

CE-EX-25: I suppose LQ does add some details here that may be worth including, but I think that since we have included sections 41-45 of AAm, we must make a small deletion:

And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with love and wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforetold. For {[}so{]} it shall ever be even with the Valar. From without the world, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and strange.
CE-EX-25.1{Thus it was that Oromë came upon the Quendi by chance in his wandering, while they dwelt yet silent {upon [read }beside{]} the star-lit mere, {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], Water of Awakening, in the East of Middle-earth.}

In LQ, this sentence comes almost immediately after it is told that Orome found the Elves, but in our text we have already told about this at some length (from AAm).

CE-SL-11: Following Tolkien’s own change to the text here, I think we have to delete a little bit more:

CE-SL-11{For a while he abode with them and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever most dear to their hearts, and the fair Elvish speech was sweet in the ears of the Valar. Then swiftly Oromë rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the Elves, and he brought the tidings to Valmar. And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but}<LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §19 Then swiftly he rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the long-awaited, and he brought the tidings to Valmar.

Tolkien deleted the “for a while he abode with them”, and thus changed the story so that Orome immediately returned to Valinor, and only afterward came and stayed with the Elves for a while at Cuivienen.

CE-EX-26: As ever, I think I’m a little bit more hesitant than others to transplant scattered bits from the Lost Tales into our narrative, but I can make no real objection to this. But there is a ‘may’ that must become ‘might’ in the past tense. Also, I am not completely sure, but I think that in later Quenya, the root vowel is prefixed to a verb in the perfect tense, so it should become utulielto instead of tulielto (cf. utulien aure, ‘the day has come’). So:

CE-EX-26 <LT Oromë {pricks}pricked over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}shouted aloud so that all the ears in Valmar {may}might hear him: ‘Utulielto! Utulieito! They have come - they have come!’ Then he {stands}stood midway between the Two Trees and {winds}wound his horn, and the gates of Valmar {are}were opened, and the Vali trooped into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}had come into the world.

CE-EX-27: I’m a little unsure about changing the words of Palurien here to the thoughts of Orome, though I guess it works. More problematic is the use of the word ‘Eldar’ here, since Orome hasn’t yet had a chance to learn their language and name them that.

CE-EX-28: It’s true that Angainor still exists in the later versions, though I must admit that some of the LT detail of its making feel a little out of place to me. But chiefly I worry about the name tilkal and its strange etymology. As far as I can tell, ‘tambe’, ‘latuken’, ‘ilsa’, and ‘kanu’ never show up again after the LT era, and in later Quenya, ‘laure’ is explicitly said to refer to gold as a colour, but not to the metal. I suppose we could try keeping ‘tilka’, but removing the etymology:

CE-EX-28 <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named {therefore} tilkal, {[Footnote in the manuscript: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the 'magic' names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had . . .

Incidentally, I have no real problem with the word ‘magic’ here (there are plenty of other, more jarring to me, elements from the LT that we have included in our version), but I will not argue against changing it to ‘power’ either.

There is also a missing change from ‘Angaino’ to ‘Angainor’ just following this. ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterindi’ looks fine to me, though.

CE-EX-29: There seems to me to be both some redundancy and some contradiction here between LT, MT, and LQ - notably, that in LQ the Valar go immediately to war and show no intention of “entreating” Melkor to change his ways, so at the very least I think this statement from LT must go. Moreover, I think the MT statement is (aside from being again written with an analytical rather than narrative tone) part of what we might have to consider a projected and unimplementable sketch for a new version of the story, where Utumno is not sacked by the Valar, but rather Melkor guilefully surrenders to them. But I suppose I should consider that when I come to the proper place in reviewing the text. Of more immediate concern is that this statement clearly contradicts LQ, where the intention of the Valar is to defeat Melkor, not merely to provide a “covering action” to defend the Quendi. Findegil has made one change to eliminate this contradiction, in the deletion of “and make an end”, but we still have this:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.'

If we do decide to follow the MT idea that the Valar did not expect to defeat Melkor but only went to war intending to give the Elves time to come to Aman, then we must find some way to remove this. It could be done by taking the shorter account from AAm:

. . . and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> CE-SL-11.5<AAm Manwë sat long in thought upon Taniquetil, and he resolved at the last to make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife.> <LQ Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, . . .

At any rate, it seems to me that the MT statement here, even if we decide that its content can be adopted into our version, rather loses its point when removed from its context - that context being that Melkor has now dispersed his power, so that it comes as a surprise to the Valar that they are able to defeat him. So even if we decide to use this paragraph from MT, I’d prefer to find some way to keep the paragraph together in one piece.

I would, therefore, do this:

{But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.}>
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end.

Where I’ve broken off CE-SL-12.1 as its own number because it is only necessary in case we decide to adopt the MT statement.

CE-EX-30: I’ve gone back and forth on this a little bit, but in the end I don’t think I have any problem with the inclusion of this description of the Valar’s battle array.

Coming back to CE-EX-03, my inclination is still not to include it, as I think the motivation for the council is already very clearly implied, but again, it's a minor point and if others disagree I certainly won't put up a fight.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-25.1: Agreed.

CE-SL-11: Agreed.

CE-EX-26: Agreed.

CE-EX-27: I suppose we can change ‘Eldar’ here to ‘the First-born’.

CE-EX-28: Sad as it is to loos it, I agree to remove the etymology.

CE-EX-29: For me it is MT that we have to follow if it contradicts the earlier story telling. Therefore I agree that we have do something with the speech of Manwë. But I would like to offer an alternative editing:

… and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to {Valmar}[Valimar] he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }at whatsoever cost{, and}<AAm make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife> and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, …

I propose to include the MT statement into CE-EX-39 as a kind of retrospecife.

CE-EX-03: So we will include it, since gandalf85 and me agree that it has some importance.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-EX-25 and CE-SL-11: Agreed

CE-EX-26: The languages are not my strong suit, so I'll defer to you and agree.

CE-EX-27: Good catch! Agreed to changing it to the "First-born".

CE-EX-28: I'm sad to see it go too, but if the etymology doesn't work, it needs to go.

CE-EX-29: We mention how Melkor has dispersed his power into his agents when the Valar confront him. I think splitting up the paragraph from MT works, but I agree that Manwe's speech needs to be modified. I like Fin's edit, the part of that speech that's contradictory is the bit about taking up again the mastery of Arda. The rest of it seems in keeping with the rest of the narrative. I agree that the tonal shift at CE-EX-39 is a bit jarring, but this part of MT is definitely workable in the narrative without doing great violence to it, and since they are Tolkien's latest thoughts we should keep them.

[Aiwendil]

Continuing to work through this slowly, as we now come to what I think may be the most difficult (or at least most contentious) bit.

Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches.

I’m unsure about “Falman” and “Vailimo”. I see that ArcusCalion emends “Vailimo” to “Vaiaro”, but what is the source for this?

Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.

Here I think we have some redundancy between LQ and AAm, and I also think that the “Never did Melkor forget . . .” passage from LQ is awkwardly placed, as it now interrupts the more vivid telling of the Valar’s march to war. The redundancy is that we describe the damage and geographical changes to the earth twice. I think we could either delete the interruption from LQ, or perhaps just delete the statement about Middle-earth being changed and broken, and change the paragraph divisions slightly:

Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.>
<LQ Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved.} CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}>CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.

CE-EX-37: This addition from LT seems to me to contradict what has just been said (from AAm). In the LT account, the Valar come to the gates of Utumno and immediately break them open (by means of Oromë’s horn). But from AAm we have just said that there was a long and grievous siege, lasting two years, that involved many battles before the gates. One might try to save something of the LT account here by changing it so that after the long siege and battles, Oromë’s horn blast is what finally breaks down the gates, but that invites the question: if that’s all it took, why didn’t they do that right away? I think it’s safer to remove this addition from LT.

CE-EX-39: Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the story given in MT VI must be considered a projected change under principle 2b, that we cannot take up. That text does not constitute a narrative; it is a working note, in Tolkien's voice, on changes he intended to make to the story. To make it work as narrative, it is (as I think Findegil's draft shows) necessary to perform a lot of editorial work, and in the end the product is not really satisfactory.

Now, it is true that we have a long-established precedent of not worrying about style, and not worrying if two texts written in very different styles stand next to each other. But as far as I'm concerned, that is about narrative texts in different literary styles - mixing in texts clearly written from an 'external' point of view and in a distinctly non-literary style is something else entirely. Moreover, it's one thing to take a paragraph from one source and a paragraph from another, very different, one; it's again another thing entirely to take two texts that tell utterly different stories, one a full-scale narrative and the other an author's note to himself, and to mangle them together phrase by phrase.

So, I think we are more than justified under principle 2b in rejecting any elements of MT VI that cannot be adopted without butchering the text. The only question in my mind is whether any of it should be adopted, or whether the whole thing must be considered of a piece, and rejected entirely. As I see it, MT VI says the following things:

1. Melkor was, in origin, the greatest of the Valar
2. The Valar went to war with Melkor without any real hope of victory
3. Melkor had dispersed much of his power into his servants and into the very fabric of Arda
4. Manwë and Melkor both become aware of this change in Melkor when they encounter each other
5. Melkor submits, or pretends to submit, to the Valar (rather than being defeated and chained).

Point 1 presents no problem, and we've already incorporated it in chapter 1. Point 2 we have discussed here already, and it doesn't pose any problems for the storyline, though how to incorporate it without mangling the text is an open question. Similar considerations apply to points 3 and 4, I think - they are not problematic from a story point of view, but I think the current way they are incorporated into Findegil's draft is not good. Note that even if we decide that these points are valid, that does not necessarily mean that we must find some way of introducing them into the text - these could be considered simply an extra-textual analysis of the story. Point 5, though, contradicts the narrative texts of this section, and this is the point that I think must be regarded as an unworkable projected change.

So the questions for me are, first, whether we can really consider these separate points or must consider them as a whole and discard the whole thing, and second, if we decide on the former, whether points 2, 3, and 4 can be worked into the text in a reasonable way.

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings. Life has been very busy for me lately, and so I have not had time to review all these updates and discussions. I will only drop in now to say that {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] was my attempt to update the old Qenya to Quenya, and may indeed be inaccurate. In addition, the updated Quenya of Oromë's declaration should be: 'Utúlieltë' and the Valar's response should be 'I-Eldar utúlier'

[Findegil]

CE-EX-35.5: Agreed.

CE-EX-37: I can see your point, but I think removal is a radical cure, where slight modification should be sufficient. A gate unprotected by defenders is worthless and a gate closed all the time during a siege would not allow for many battles before it (in that case the battle would be ‘at the gate’ not before it). Consider for example the Gate of Angband: It was some times shut to keep out intruders like Fingolfin (twice), during the great Battles it was allway opened to let out Morgorth Armies, and in that way Gwindor could even enter during his rush. So for me the many battles before the gates of Utumno are part of the Valar dealing with Melkor’s might dispersed into his servance piecemeal. And their position before the gates show rather that during that time Melkor still had control over the gates and he still could send out his forces. In such a situation forcing the gate open by a horn blow of Oromë would be useless, because either the gate was already open and the defenders coming out, or the Valar did know well that they couldn’t get in as long as the defenders were active. Only after the Valar had fought down the defence in this series of battles they got control area directlybefore the gate and could try overcoming that ‘mechanical barrier’. And we see that even that first attempt of the Valar to enter Utumno was not fully succesfull, since Melkor had kept until that last and desperate moment the Balrogs as his most powerfull force.
But again I can see that he editing does not take enough count of this interpretation of the events. My suggestion is find below.

CE-EX-39: Posted by Aiwendil:

Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points.

True!
It is clear that MT VI can be considered altogether or in parts under principle 2b. I as well agree that the style is in parts awakward for our propose, and that this is underlined by the way in which I mixed the sources (the nice think about a group work is, that there is alway a corrective).
I agree to your analyses of the essential features of MT VI and on the fact that point 1. to 4. are less critical then 5.. For me it is not clear why the pretended submission of Melkor should pose a bigger problem. Of course we will lose the fight of Melkor and Tulkas and the chaning with Angainor, but to build a narrative covering the storyl line of MT VI should be possible.
So here is my suggestion taking as well your earlier critisem into account: we should try to keep MT VI more together and use it as a kind of retrospective refelction probably before the council of the Valar that dealt with Melkor:

§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last CE-EX-37b <LT {There }in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.
But though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would not come.> §50 {It}Thus it came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-38.1<LT But {though deep down within those halls Melko heard him and was in doubt, he}[u]Melkor[/b] would still not come, but sent {Langon his}a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the {Gods}[Valar] before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwe's herald and learn what it were the {Gods}[Valar] so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where {Melko}[Melkor] laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from {Melko}[Melkor]'s words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the {Gods}[Valar] he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him CE-EX-38.2{ unawares} and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwe assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwe sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4<LT Then the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and now they follow Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwe and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago. Thus> CE-EX-38.6 <MT; VI Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.> CE-EX-38.7 <MT; VI Possibly (and he {thinks}thought it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled.> CE-EX-38.8 <MT; VI He {feigns}feigned remorse and repentance. He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.>
CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91<LQ Nonetheless the CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44b <LT Now Tulkas and Ulmo {break}brook the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5 <MT; VI Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).>
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14{writhed}[simmered] in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>CE-EX-39c <MT; VI
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkor’s sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming ' CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}and his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power level with the Valar. The Valar {find}found that they {can}could deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they {come}came at last to Utumno itself and {find}found that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}had no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. CE-EX-42{Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either }Manwë {must tell him so or}had told Melkor and he {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }had realized that this {has}had happened: he {is}was 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}had become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he {cannot}could not bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43b{Orcs, Balrogs, etc. }power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}, so that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power {has}had gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}/There was/ a trembling moment when {it is}/he was/ in the balance: he nearly {repents}repented - and {does}did not, and {becomes}became much wickeder, and more foolish.
CE-EX-43.2{Possibly (and he thinks it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces reassemble. }So - as soon as he {has}had mentally rejected repentance - he {(just like Sauron afterwards on this model) makes}made a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From {which}this actually he {gets}got a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy – {[}for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.{]} He {feigns remorse and}feigned repentance CE-EX-43.4{. He actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders} - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}feared would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}had the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manwë{ -}/./ Manwë {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the {status quo}[present state]' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}had granted Melkor's prayer.
CE-EX-43.5{Melkor is taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[Footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who follows bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
}But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion{ - but}/. But/ he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory{. He cannot}/, he could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.>
§23 Then again the {Gods}[Valar] were gathered in council ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-EX-35.5: Aiwendil's change looks good to me.

CE-EX-37: I agree with Fin's analysis. It is what I had assumed when reading the original text. Since his reworking makes it more clear, I agree to it.

CE-EX-39: I do not see why point 5 is contradictory and unworkable. Melkor's forces are defeated, and then he feigns remorse and repentance instead of choosing to fight on. I agree that the prose is more analytical at points rather than narrative, but I think if we want to include these points this is the best place to do it. I actually think Fin's original more chronological edit works better than his latest proposed change where there is a sort of reflection after the confrontation with Melkor. I propose either we use the original editing, or move all the extra-textual analysis about Melkor's dispersal of his power to Volume 3. I will think about it some more, but right now I'm leaning towards the former.

[gandalf85]

Just wanted to check in on how everyone is doing. I'm taking two classes at Signum this semester: Beyond Middle Earth (which focuses on Tolkien's short stories and academic work) and Beowulf in Old English (where we translate Beowulf into Modern English). It's keeping me pretty busy. How is everyone doing?

[Aiwendil]

I've been trying to find a chunk of time to continue reviewing this chapter. I'll really make an effort to do so in the next two or three days.

[Aiwendil]

We'll have to come back to the big unresolved issues regarding Myths Transformed, but for now here are some more comments up to CE-EX-52.

CE-EX-44: Typo "brook" for "broke":

CE-EX-44 <LT Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno]

Also, there's a missing {Melko}[Melkor]:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment,

But we also have a redundancy due to a combination of different texts:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

Here we tell that the Valar returned to Valmar with Melkor twice, and this must be fixed irrespective of what we do about the MT story. Of course, as I have argued, I think the story of Melkor's voluntary surrender should be considered an unusable projection, and since the only new detail offered in the second statement here is that Tulkas followed behind clinking Angainor (whereas in the version I advocate, Melkor would be wearing Angainor), I would just remove it entirely:

After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> {Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).}

If we decide to keep the new story, I'd suggest instead deleting the LT statement. I also think that the footnote here is very out of place in a narrative text, even more than the body of the MT text, it is Tolkien analyzing his own writing. I'd delete it. Thus:

{After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.}> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas{[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.]} who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).

CE-EX-45: There's a missing {Vali}[Valar]:

CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small

CE-EX-46:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears,

In LT, the "thereat" here refers to Palurien's reaction to Makar's argument. With that removed, it makes it appear that Yavanna is brought to tears by the words of Osse, Orome, etc. I think we should change "thereat" to simply "and", and move "arose" correspondingly:

CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} {Thereat}And {arose} {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears,

CE-SL-14: Again, I think Melkor should be chained. But in any case, I don't see "writhed" as being inappropriate even if he is unchained; I don't think it necessarily implies straining against the chain.

CE-SL-15: Another instance where, if we follow my suggestion, Melkor will be chained and the change won't be needed.

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.> But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Again here I think we have a bad tension between the MT story and that in the preceding section from LT. In MT, it is notable that Melkor was not given immediate freedom, since he submitted willingly. But the preceding section from LT allows no thought that Melkor could possibly be set free - especially since we have removed the one Vala who spoke in favour of him! At the very least, we have to delete the "but". "At the council" is also redundant, since we have already been narrating the council. If we keep the MT element of Melkor's willing submission, then I would emend thus:

Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>

{But at the council} Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).

Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).>

As with the other instances, this should be removed if we accept my argument that this new element not be incorporated.

CE-EX-47: If we accept my argument, this statement should be reinstated.

CE-SL-17:

CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.

This seems somewhat redundant with the LT insertion in CE-EX-44, so that we say twice that evil things lingered in those places. We should either delete one instance or combine them.

CE-EX-48: Is "Tuivana" still a valid name for Vana? I can't recall if it's used outside of LT.

CE-EX-49: I'm not sure about these "unelvish spirits", much less about Mandos's folk roaming Middle-earth.

CE-EX-50:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I think that with the deletion of the Measse bit, the "and" should be kept to introduce that sentence:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, a}[A]nd Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else

I also wonder about the description of Nienna as "cold to the Eldar as to all else" here; it seems to me that the Fui Nienna of LT is a much darker figure than the lady of pity and compassion she later became. So I would remove her from that sentence and have it refer only to Mandos:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else

And finally, we have the statement later (from LQ) that Mandos "had spoken not at all" during the debate. Now, one could argue that the reference here to him being "cold to the Eldar" does not imply that he spoke - and yet, if the implictaion here is not that Mandos and Fui took part in the debate and counselled against taking drastic action out of love for the Eldar, then one wonders why they would be mentioned here at all. So I tend to think that, in the end, even the mention of Mandos ought to be removed:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else}

CE-EX-51:

Wherefore, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

This has to change, since in the new version Ulmo is against the summons; therefore rebellion against Ulmo can't motivate Osse to speak against it. Without this, we have no information on what Osse's opinion would be - and moreover, it seems less likely in the later Legendarium that he would speak at a council of the Valar anyway. So I suggest:

CE-EX-51.1Wherefore{, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo -} it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

CE-EX-52:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' CE-EX-52 <AAm And Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.

The insertion from AAm seems to me to be in the wrong place, especially since the next sentence, starting with "for" refers back to Mandos's utterance. I think it would be better thus:

And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

CE-EX-52 <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.

[Findegil]

Nice to have your input Aiwendil.
CE-EX-44: Thanks for pointing out these typos.
Maybe we should first address the real issue, before we go farther. I think, we have boiled it down already to the following question:
Do we follow MT and thus let Melkor pretend to submit an following the Valar into Aman by his own free will or do we leave that aspect of MT out and follow the earlier AAm and LT account in which Tulkas defeats Melkor which is than bound by Againor and forced to Valinor?
Gandalf85 did already state his opinion that he leans more to the MT storyline and found my first chronological editing better than the later.
By reading both versions again, I fully agree with him. Maybe we have to skip some parts of the text or some footnotes as to analytic, but even of that I am not so sure. If we take up the MT version here, we have a shift in the story from a physical struggle between the Valar and Melkor’s agents to a much more mental struggle between Melkor and Manwe. That in such a case the style of the narrative changes from a more direct description of the battle action to a more analytic style is a necessity (how else can a mental struggle be told if not by analyses?).
To be honest, the analytic comments greatly enhance for me at least the characterization of both Melkor and Manwe. Melkor is shown in the moment he finally rejects repentance and Manwe in his struggle to keep Eä functional for Eru’s propose (or on a smaller scale, Ardar inhabitable for the children of Eru) for this he has to keep Melkor at bay without eliminating the Melkor ingredient to much, as that would rob Eä of very much of its potential. The Word of Eru that no one can change the tale against his will, where a warning for both Melkor and Manwe. Melkor did not heed that warning and struggle on until he had spent his full potential without a benefit for him (so it greatly enhanced the ‘Story of Arda’, which otherwise could have been very booring). But Manwe heeded that warning and did only make an end to the inhabiting of Arda by Melkor when Morgoth had personally via dispersion shrunk to insignificance.

Maybe Aiwendil, you could explain a bit more what makes you feel so strongly against the MT stuff here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

My objection comes down to my view that MT VI text is not a narrative; it's an outline for a new narrative that Tolkien never wrote. For me, this is a clear case for principle 2b, "proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed." That is, it tells us that Tolkien was going to re-write this material, but it does not give us any actual text to use. The phrases that, in the current proposal, we take from MT to effect this change are, in my opinion, not at all suitable to stand in a narrative. This is Tolkien writing in his own modern, colloquial voice, and there's no way that he would have considered describing Melkor as "isolated in enemy territory" or "swallowing a bitter pill" in an actual rewrite of this story.

Now, yes, it's true that we have explicitly said that we are not to be concerned about stylistic inconsistencies within our text. But when we hashed that out, we were talking about the differing styles of narratives written over the course of Tolkien's life. The key example we dealt with early on was the juxtaposition between the very different styles of the Lost Tales and of stuff like the later 'Tuor'. I don't think that this in any way obligates us to treat the text of notes or analyses written in Tolkien's own 'external' voice as if they are real narratives.

So, that's my main objection - that as I see it, we simply don't have a text that is suitable for taking up this new element of the story - and in trying to force MT VI to fill that role, we end up doing great damage to the text.

Now, for many of the other projected changes in MT, as we've discussed, I think the intervention required to achieve the change is much less, and in those cases and many others, we've used the expedient of taking a minimal amount of wording from a note or analysis and inserting it into a text. In some cases, I've been a bit uneasy about how much manipulation of the text is needed, but of course it's hard to draw a clear line between what is acceptable and what is too much. But for me, the situation with this story of the feigned submission of Melkor is clearly on the "too much" side.

Does that help explain my view on this?

[Findegil]

Thank you very much for that explanation. Your reasons are now much clearer to me. And it has to me become clear that the first answer to your concerns can only be a text that demonstrates that we can take the story line of MT IV without introducing its ‘outside voice character’. It clear that this text is still questionable since it will involve a lot of ‘fragmenting’ textual changes and probably some switching the sense of the actual words.
That said, I still think that we should in some way present the more analytical parts of MT IV to our (imagined) readers. But if that finds approval by the group and how and where (most probably in volume 3) is quiet an independent question.

Okay, that is what the following text tries to do. Since I wished on the one hand to have documented where I skipped part of the MT IV that was included before and none the less show how much more storytelling the text has become I provide here under a clean text version:

Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the {Gods}[Valar] knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own.> And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were in doubt amid their mirth, and they debated what counsel it were best now to take to guard the Elves from the shadow of Melkor. At once Oromë returned to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen], and he abode there long among the Elves, and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever the dearest to their hearts, and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to {Valmar}[Valimar] he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife> and at whatsoever cost{, and} deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b<LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to {overcome}[fight] him by force{ or guile}, {and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.}> CE-EX-28.6<MT; VI as a {covering action or }diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.>
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready …
…
…
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last CE-EX-37b <LT {There }in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly{ and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.> Thus the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37.5{ and its halls unroofed}, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>
CE-EX-39f CE-EX-38.1b<LT Then{ Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and} Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.
But though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come, but sent {Langon his}a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the {Gods}[Valar] before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwë's herald and learn what it were the {Gods}[Valar] so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where {Melko}[Melkor] laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from {Melko}[Melkor]'s words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the {Gods}[Valar] he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him CE-EX-38.2 unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }"{ }or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow}followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." CE-EX-38.55{But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwë and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago}>CE-EX-38.6b <MT; VI Thus Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.{
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43bOrcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.}
CE-EX-38.7b Possibly {(and he thinks it possible) he}Melkor could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled. {So - as soon as he has mentally rejected repentance - he (just like Sauron afterwards on this model) makes a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From which actually he gets a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy – [for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He feigns remorse and repentance.} CE-EX-38.8b He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.{ - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he fears would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers}He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manwë{ - Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations}. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.> CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}Whoever the CE-SL-17b{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44b <LT Now Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5b
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose}. And {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>CE-EX-39e <MT; VI
But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).{
Then he begins to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot. Therefore he swallows the bitter pill (but it greatly increases his hate, and he ever afterward accused Manwë of being faithless).}> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.>

Clean text:

Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the Valar knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own. And the Valar rejoiced, and yet were in doubt amid their mirth, and they debated what counsel it were best now to take to guard the Elves from the shadow of Melkor. At once Oromë returned to Cuiviénen, and he abode there long among the Elves, and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever the dearest to their hearts, and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to Valimar he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife and at whatsoever cost deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife; and of the redes there spoken the Valar devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his power a seventh which he named tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But the desire of the Valar was to seek out Melkor with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to fight him by force, as a diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.
But now the Valar made ready …
…
…
It came to pass that at last in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar of Illuin the Valar came upon the huge gates of deep Utumno, and Melkor shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly. Thus the gates of Utumno were broken, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithfull to him, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.
Then Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Mekor come forth.
But though deep down within those halls Melkor heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come, but sent a servant and said by him that "Behold, he was rejoiced and in wonder to see the Valar before his gates. Now would he gladly welcome them, yet for the poverty of his abode not more than two of them could he fitly entertain; and he begged that neither Manwë nor Tulkas be of the two, for the one merited and the other demanded hospitality of great cost and richness. Should this not be to their mind then would he fain hearken to Manwë's herald and learn what it were the Valar so greatly desired that they must leave their soft couches and indolence of Valinor for the bleak places where Melkor laboured humbly and did his toilsome work."
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the Valar were exceeding wroth at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear from Melkor's words that he was awake and wary in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Valar he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how these twain may come upon him unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig Melkor from his stronghold "or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.
Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, and then they followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat Melkor in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." Thus Manwë at last faced Melkor again, as he had not done since he entered Arda. Both were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he had now less personal force than Manwë, and could no longer daunt him with his gaze. Possibly Melkor could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces reassembled. He actually kneeled before Manwë and surrendered. He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he had done. It was this offer which seduced or deluded Manwë. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he granted Melkor's prayer. In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the Valar would at his bidding indeed have received Melkor into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.
Whoever the fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. Now Tulkas and Ulmo broke the gates of Utumno and piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when Melkor was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of Melkor find their end.
After these things did the Valar return to Valimar by long ways and dark, guarding Melkor every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.
Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and small and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence. And Kementári arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but Melkor writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the Valar, yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have fought Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of Kementári, yet was it his thought that Melkor was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.
But at the council Melkor was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly did not tolerate this. Melkor was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress). And he was led captive into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon; and the world had peace for a great age.

Some comments to the changes I made:
CE-SL-11.5b: Here we acknowledge the fact from MT; IV that the Valar had no hope of real victory.
CE-EX-28b: I nominated this change b because I took up a bit more at the end. LT has here already Manwe’s reluctance to fight Melkor. Instead already this early in the writing history of Middle-Earth Tolkien establishes Manwe as seeking to ‘entreat’ Melkor to ‘better deeds’. It is interesting to see how Tolkien’s sometimes comes back to such idea’s in full circle.
CE-EX-28.2: I introduce this marker to nominate our discussion about the name ‘tilkal.’ ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterendi’.
CE-EX-28.4: I introduce this marker to nominate our discussion about the names ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterendi’.
CE-EX-28.6: This is the only part of MT; VI I actually used here. It does introduce the motive to fight that we need after we made clear that the Valar did not hope for real victory.
CE-EX-37b: I shifted the integration here a bit, therefore the b. Specially at the end I wove the passages a bit more fluent into on another. As it stands now Orome opens the gates, Melkor sends out his Balrogs and only after the Valar had fought that onslaught down Manwe calls Melkor who is now attested to be alone to come out.
CE-EX-37.5: I think we have to change this, since later we took up that Tulkas and Ulmo broke the gates and piled rock on them but that the caverns where not utterly destroyed.
CE-EX-38: These changes are generally accepted, I think.
CE-EX-39f: I left this maker in the text, since here in earlier version we had big parts of MT; VI introduced, but in this version I left it out.
CE-EX-38.1b: We already decided to leave out the guile the Valar used to bring Tulkas and Manwe into Melkor’s chamber, but the exchange via the servant I used to trigger the Valar to lay down their weapons and go in for negotiation.
CE-EX-38.2: I left that marker because in the last version we skipped ‘unawares’, but here it fits in well.
CE-EX-38.3: As mentioned above we did not include this ‘cunning deceit’.
CE-EX-38.4b: I changed ‘Then’ to ‘Therefore’ to use the lay down of the weapons instead of the ‘cunning deceit’ from LT.
CE-EX-38.55: As my text stands at this point Manwe has introduced Melkor to come with him to Valinor as it seems without any prerequisite. But I think from the new developed context it is clear enough that this offer is one for cooperation in consensus. I skipped the rest of the conversation since if we follow MT; VI Manwe and Melkor in this moment when they face each other in person must have understood who was now ‘in command’. And that is what I let follow here:
CE-EX-38.6b: He start the parts of MT’; VI that I found necessary. But I tried to strip that passages of as much text as possible. Thus, giving us a chance to use it full size later on and reduce the essay character it has. The first used scene is that of Manwe and Melkor perceiving the decrease of Melkor.
CE-EX-38.7b: The second motive I found necessary is that of possibility of the humiliation and chaining of Melkor. By the changes I introduced I tried to avoid the out side point of view that is used in MT; VI to explain the motives of Melkor and Manwe.
CE-EX-38.8b: The third scene used here is that of Melkor’s (feigned) surrender and Manwe’s granting it. But again, I removed the analyses of the motives. In that way the reader is left as unclear as Manwe if the repentance is real or feigned.
CE-EX-38.9: This passage from LT fits very well to explain Manwe’s motives at least a bit, and since it comes from a source that is everything but an essay, I don’t see that Aiwendil’s objection against the majority of the MT; VI stuff could be applied to it.
CE-EX-38.91b: I found the ‘Nonetheless’ not really fitting here.
CE-SL-17b: In the older versions we had only changed the text here from singular to plural and skipped the name of Utumno. But I thought, it might be better to introduce the name of Angband here, as it makes clear that there was a difference between what the Valar made at Angband to how they ‘sealed’ Utumno.
CE-EX-44b: Here we tell the sealing of Utumno.
CE-EX-44.5: I left that maker in because it marks a place where text of MT; V had been in other versions.
CE-EX-45 & CE-EX-46: These are unchanged.
CE-SL-14: I came back here to the original text, following Aiwendil’s arguments.
CE-SL-15: It is clear, that this passage has to follow what ever we decided about Melkor being chained in Utumno.
CE-EX-39e: If we introduce MT; VI with the (feigned) repentance of Melkor we need that passage, since it makes clear that Manwe’s was in a way overruled by the Valar in assembly during that court. But again, I remove the analyses of Melkors motives as they are clearly from an outside view point.
CE-EX-47 & CE-SL-16b & CE-SL-18: These are unchanged from the last version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It's a well-worn refrain by this point, but once again, I'm sorry I haven't been around in a while.

If Findegil or anyone else is still around, I'm going to make an effort to get back to work on this. My general feeling after reading the last proposal is that I still don't find it satisfactory, but I will try to re-read it and identify my objections more specifically.

[Findegil]

Hi Aiwendil,

nice to read from you again! Yes, I am still here to discuse what so ever specific critisem you can bring forward.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

All right, here are my comments on the latest proposal.

CE-SL-11.5b: I gather that the point of this is to remove mention of "taking up again the mastery of Arda" to bring this in line with MT VI, but it introduces a redundancy, since the Valar's trepidation about the hurts they will cause to Arda is then mentioned twice. Also, the editing of Manwe's speech makes him repeat "Melkor" unnecessarily. If we do edit this to agree with MT, I think better would be:

that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.}

CE-EX-28b: Here you (rather cleverly) try to use material from <b>LT</b> to narrate the story outlined in <b>MT</b>. But one must be careful! There is a superficial similarity between the statement from <b>LT</b> and the story in <b>MT</b>, but there is also a critical difference: In <b>LT</b>, where Melkor has been a bit more of a Loki-esque figure than the great evil he later became, the Valar decide to try to treat with him before they go to war - for they have a reasonable expectation that he might listen to them. In <b>MT</b>, there is no suggestion that this possibility occurs to them until after the war, when Melkor pleads for mercy on his own initiative. In the later Legendarium, it is hard to believe that the Valar could think they could "entreat him to better deeds" as if he were a wayward schoolboy. So I'm sorry to say I don't think this works, and I don't think it successfully enacts the story outlined in <b>MT</b>.

CE-EX-28.2: I'm still unsure about "tilkal". Even if we accept tambe, latuken, ilsa, and kanu (and I have doubts about the phonology of latuken and ilsa in later Quenya), laure, I'm pretty sure, only refers to the colour, not the metal after the Lost Tales. But I'd need to refresh myself on Quenya, or consult someone more knowledgeable, to be sure.

Again, though, I don't see a problem with the word "magic" here.

CE-EX-28.4: I think that Vorotemnar and Ilterindi are fine in later Quenya, though again, my Quenya knowledge is very rusty.

CE-EX-28.6: I still feel that the language here is very much that of an analytical note by Tolkien, not a narrative. You rightly remove "covering action", but "sphere of influence" still grates. However, I'm not sure that this addition is needed for the purpose you use it for - already above, we say that they wish to make war upon Melkor "and deliver the Quendi from the shadows" (of Melkor). So I suggest that even if we are taking up this part of the <b>MT</b> story, we do not actually need this addition.

CE-EX-37b: There is still confusion here caused by merging the LT and AAm stories. In the latter, and in our text, it is told that the siege lasts for years. In AAm this is followed by the statement that at last the gates of Utumno were broken. In the proposal here, however, it's followed by the statement from LT that the Valar came to the gates of Utumno and Melkor shut them before their faces. In LT, this describes the beginning of an altogether far shorter battle, but it rings very odd here. I suppose one could posit that in all the war up to this point, the Valar had never actually come close enough to the gates that Orome's horn could have blasted them open, but this seems like quite a stretch to me, especially since AAm specifically locates the fighting before the gates of Utumno. As nice and vivid as the LT imagery is, I still think it has to go in this instance.

CE-EX-37.5: The statement that the halls are unroofed is from AAm, whereas unless I'm mistaken the description of Tulkas and Ulmo breaking the gates but not utterly destroying the caverns is from LT. If there's a contradiction, then, the halls being unroofed has to take precedence.

CE-EX-38.1b and following: The addition from LT is, I gather, intended to help achieve the story of MT VI. But the character of the interaction between Melkor and the Valar here is quite different from anything in the later sources, and I don't think that it quite works. In LT (and CE-EX-38.1b), Melko somewhat comically speaks to the Valar as if they were friends he was inviting to tea, and this kind of fairy-tale naive guile doesn't at all fit with the later conception of Melkor, much less with that in MT. But more importantly, this doesn't actually do anything to achieve the story in MT VI, for there Melkor's deception is one of feigned repentance and abasement, not feigned congeniality.

In LT, the Valar then decide that they cannot overcome Melkor by force (which you have edited out here) and therefore they pretend to accept his "fawning insolence" in order to come at him unawares, even to the point of saying they have come to salute him. This, too, is gone in the later sources and nothing in MT suggests that it was resurrected.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: As I've argued above, I think the LT material doesn't actually do anything to establish the story from MT, which means that these insertions are doing all the work. And I'm afraid they still simply don't read as narrative to me. The first part (38.6b) is less problematic, but the rest (38.7b, 38.8b) is very much in the voice of Tolkien making notes for himself, not that of a narrative - on top of which the many (necessary) deletions make it read somewhat oddly. 38.9 is certainly fine narrative prose, and in fact of all the LT additions so far is the only one that seems to me to go some way toward telling the story Tolkien outlined in MT VI - but it is not enough.

CE-EX-45, -39e: Again, the distant, analytical writing of MT VI is very jarring against the vivid narrative of LT. But I don't think this is as problematic as the section at CE-EX-38.1b.

Those are my specific reactions to the current proposal - but to step back slightly, my view of this is that I don't really see the value in going to heroic lengths to adopt the story as projected in MT VI, when it requires such drastic interventions in the text and - even in the best case - results in a text that is stylistically and tonally incoherent. I don't see that we have any obligation to follow MT in places where it radically departs from the story of LQ, AAm, and other late texts.

I'm sorry to return from such a long hiatus with such an argumentative post! I hope you're doing well - I heard from a friend who lives in Germany that COVID was pretty bad there for a while; I hope your friends and family are safe and healthy.

[Findegil]

I'm sorry to return from such a long hiatus with such an argumentative post!

Aiwendil, thank you very much for this post! I don’t think you have to apologies, because at least for me, it exactly what was needed at this point of our discussion.

Those are my specific reactions to the current proposal - but to step back slightly, my view of this is that I don't really see the value in going to heroic lengths to adopt the story as projected in MT VI, when it requires such drastic interventions in the text and - even in the best case - results in a text that is stylistically and tonally incoherent. I don't see that we have any obligation to follow MT in places where it radically departs from the story of LQ, AAm, and other late texts.

I agree that we do not have an obligation to follow MT, but my feeling is that its analyses of motives and character does add a lot to the understanding of Manwë and Melkor/Morgoth. I am very reluctant to withhold that from our imagined readers. That said, I am now very much inclined to use a version of MT VI in Volume III, where its analytic style is much more appropriate. But to allow that, our storyline here has to agree to it.
With that let’s start with Aiwendil’s specific reactions:
CE-SL-11.5b: Agreed.
CE-EX-28b: I do not think that the similarity between LT and MT is ‘superficial’. Some motives have long roots, and Manwë leaning always rather to peace and treaty than to victory by violence, is clearly one such long rooted motive. Considering MT storyline, how could we think that Melkor asking for pardon in the moment of obvious defeat, could have changed Manwë’s mind, if he had not believed that a true repentance of Melkor was possible? But none the less your criticism is right, since there is big difference of what Manwë might have hoped for and what the Valar in conclave did plan. For the storyline of MT VI work, where the Valar in conclave do deny the immediate freedom of Melkor, the earlier conclave can not hope to ‘entreat him to better deeds’.
CE-EX-28.2: If ‘tilkal’ has to go as a name that is okay with me. The actual idea of this editing was to adopt the name without giving the meaning.
I still think that ‘magic’ was in Tolkien’s later vocabulary reserved for the ‘deceits of the enemy’ (black magic). But I am open exchange it by some other fitting word instead of ‘power’. But my feeling is that the Greece-roouted ‘theurgy’ is totally out of tone.
CE-EX-28.4: My knowledge of Quenya is clearly weaker than yours. If you think the names have to go that is ok for me.
CE-EX-28.6: Agreed.
CE-EX-37b: Okay, I see your point. We have to change this.
CE-EX-37.5: Is there a contradiction? In AAm immediately after ‘the halls are unroofed’ ‘Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit’. That wording suggests for me at least strongly that not all caverns where laid open. Specially if we look to the corresponding LQ text: ‘Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; …’
CE-EX-38.1b and following: I accept you criticism. The exchange with Melkor’s messenger has to go.
CE-EX-38.6b and following: This is clearly the core issue and there is no way around at least some of these materials, if (as I still think we should) we want to tell the story as given in MT VI. Let’s see if I can do better below.
CE-EX-45, CE-EX-39e: I think this can be amended by some ‘clever editing’. As the result is the same, we do not really need the actual text of MT VI here.

Okay, here is my next try:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.>CE-EX-28.6
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end}. CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aulë smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armour, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to warCE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Eönwë] who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35{Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fëanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar {and Omar }came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5b{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. }CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him.}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into CE-EX-37c <LT {There in }the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] , there they came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not{, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.>{the far North and}Thus began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100
§49 }That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37d <LT , when{Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but} Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Melkor] come forth. CE-EX-38.1cBut though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come>. Therefore Utumos CE-EX-37.5b{ and its} halls [h]were [/u]unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow}followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. CE-EX-38.5b{Then said Manwë: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." But Melko might not thus easily forgo his sport. "Nay first," said he, "wilt thou come Manwë and kneel before me, and after you all the Valar; but last shall come Tulkas and kiss my foot, for I have in mind something for which I owe Poldorea no great love." Now he purposed to spurn Tulkas in the mouth in payment of that buffet long ago.}Thus> CE-EX-38.6b <MT; VI Manwë at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.{
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.[Footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43bOrcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.}
CE-EX-38.7 CE-EX-38.8c <MT; VI {He feigns remorse and repentance. He}Now Melkor actually {kneels}kneeled before Manwë and {surrenders}surrendered.{ - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he fears would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers} He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces or deludes}deluded Manwë{ - Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin)[Footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations}. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.>CE-EX-38.9<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; CE-EX-44d <LT thereforeTulkas and Ulmo {break the gates of Utumna and pile}piled hills of stone upon {them}the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end>; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
CE-EX-44e <LT After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> CE-EX-44.5b CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose}. And {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and {his}the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] {should Melko be chained in}CE-EX-39f <MT; VI Melkor {is}was remitted to> a vault of Mandos{ by that chain Angaino}, and thereafter should he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for four ages yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwe, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the Gods suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwe, and {even to Makar and Measse}[all the folk of Valinor] it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and {Palúrien}[Kementári] thought it merciful to peril.> CE-EX-47{and he}And Melkor was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon CE-SL-18{.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.> CE-EX-47.5 <LT Now {doth}did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while {Melko}[Melkor] bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart {grows}growed black within him.{
}Behold the tumults of the sea {abate}abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains {die}died; the earth quakes no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice {is}was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South{, even to the regions about Ringil and Helkar}.>

And here for a smoother read, plain text:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should make war upon Melkor at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife; and of the redes there spoken the Valar devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his power a seventh which he named tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.
But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the fortresses of Melkor in the North. Now as Aulë smithied the Valar arrayed themselves in armour, putting on weapons and going as to war. But when the great Valar and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. Eönwë who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon Nahar his horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. There rode the Fëanturi upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the Valar got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and Hithlum that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There Melkor shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the Valar.
Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Cuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the Valar, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar of Illuin , there they came upon the huge gates of deep Utumno, and Melkor shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not. Thus began the long siege of Utumno. That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken, when Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melkor come forth. But though deep down within those halls Melkor heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come. Therefore Utumos halls were unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithfull to him, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.
Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the Valar were exceeding wroth, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear that Melkor was awake and wary - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how we may come upon him." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig Melkor from his stronghold "or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.
Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, and then they followed Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat Melkor in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Thus Manwë at last faced Melkor again, as he had not done since he entered Arda. Both were amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he had now less personal force than Manwë, and could no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Now Melkor[/u] actually kneeled] before Manwë and surrendered. He offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he had done. It was this offer which deluded Manwë. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he granted Melkor's prayer. In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the Valar would at his bidding indeed have received Melkor into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.
But[/u] the fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; therefore Tulkas and Ulmo piled hills of stone upon the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when Melkor was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of Melkor find their end; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
After these things did the Valar return to Valimar by long ways and dark, guarding Melkor every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage. Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and small and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence. And Kementári arose in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but Melkor writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the Valar, yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have fought Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of Kementári, yet was it his thought that Melkor was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and the doom at the counci> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the Valar Melkor was remitted to a vault of Mandos, and thereafter should he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for four ages yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the Gods suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwë, and all the folk of Valinor it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and Kementári thought it merciful to peril. And Melkor was led captive into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon; and the world had peace for a great age. Now did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while Melkor bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart growed black within him. Behold the tumults of the sea abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains died; the earth quakes no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South.

I hope you're doing well - I heard from a friend who lives in Germany that COVID was pretty bad there for a while; I hope your friends and family are safe and healthy.

Thank you for the good wishes! Some friends have been infected with COVID, but none faired to badly. Now with summer coming along and the vaccination spreading more and more, the risk is abated a bit. I hope you and your family and friends have also come well through this difficult times!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

CE-EX-28b: Perhaps "superficial" was the wrong word, but my point (which I think we agree on) is that while the story in LT resembles the MT story in some ways, it also differs from it in important ways.

CE-EX-28.2: Sorry, I think I misread the proposed edit and missed that the etymology was removed. I'd need to do a little research to decide whether tilkal is OK - I'm afraid my Quenya knowledge is not as deep as it once was!

CE-EX-28.4: No, what I meant was that I think these two names are good and we can keep them.

CE-EX-37.5: I don't necessarily think there is a contradiction, for the reasons you give - my point was only that, in any case, th statement about the halls being unroofed should not be deleted.

But to the main point, CE-EX-38.6b and following. I've taken a few days to think this over before replying, because it seems to be a real sticking point, and I'm not sure how to resolve it. Insofar as less of the text of MT VI intrudes here, I think it's an improvement. But the real crux of the issue for me, I think, is that no matter how we slice it, we inevitably have the critical moment of this story being narrated via a non-narrative text. It's a very jarring change in tone, and I'm afraid that the only way to avoid that would be to modify the text to the point where we're no longer editing Tolkien but rewriting him. To be honest, I'm even still a little bit uneasy about how much we're chopping up and adding in the LT, which also has a different tone, of course, from LQ and AAm, though in the end I think that that disparity is not great enough to warrant its wholesale exclusion. But when we add in MT text, especially to convey critical plot developments, it feels to me as if we've constructed Frankenstein's monster, an ungainly assemblage of pieces from obviously very different places sewn together.

And the thing is, I don't see the necessity of doing it that way. I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it. But the conclusion I'm drawing from these attempts is that it is, in fact, to be classed as an unworkable projection.

So, I don't know. Left to my own devices, I certainly would not take up this particular element of MT VI, but the goal here is, of course, consensus. It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile? Perhaps if I could see some real benefit to following MT in this instance, I would be willing to accept the scarring that this surgery is doing to the text, but as of now I just don't see it.

Thank you for the good wishes! Some friends have been infected with COVID, but none faired to badly. Now with summer coming along and the vaccination spreading more and more, the risk is abated a bit. I hope you and your family and friends have also come well through this difficult times!

Very glad to hear it! My friends and family have escaped it too. I tested positive back in February, but fortunately never developed any symptoms.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-26b: Okay.

CE-EX-28.2 & CE-EX-28.4: If you find some linguistical doubts about any of these names, we can edit them out.

CE-EX-37.5: Agreed, and my new version has it included.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: Good that you see an improvement, otherwise it would have been a bit of a disappointment 😊.

I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it.

This is always an argument at the start of the editing, and as you might expect, I do not share your feeling that the text I created feels like a Frankenstein’s monster.

It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile?

That is true, I would in this case rather skip all parts from LT than not using the story line of MT VI. But I fear that would not help get ride of your Frankenstein feeling. I tried to explain my reasons in the last post, but maybe it was too vague.

When ever Tolkien during his work on the Legendarium wrote at length about (e.g. LT, Laws and Customs) or analyzed (e.g. MT) the character of Manwe, the picture is that of a “thinker” rather than a “maker”. Manwe searches always for compromise not for conflict and avoids violence by all possible means. That picture does not come through in the shorter Sil77. There the focus is, somewhat naturally due to its shortness, on his actions: He gainsays Melkors claim for Arda in the beginning, he it is that resolves to attack Utumno and we assume that he send Eonwe to bring down Morgoth at the end of the first age.

In our editing we do in some places already include a kind differentiation, like Manwe’s reluctance against the hiding of Valinor or the story of his concourse with Manwe about elvish re-embodiment. But the analysis in MT VI does much more: It set him in a sharp contrast to Melkor and in that way reveals a lot about both characters. (By the way LT did the same, but with a different characterization of Melko as it stood at that time.) A similar argument could be made about Melkors characterization, but since he is a “maker”, he is much more in the focus of the story and we can learn much more about him by judging his actions. None the less are the directness of MT VI about Melkors “dispersing” and the immediacy in which it tells us about Melkors “trembling moment” unique.

That said it is clear (now) that we can not include that analysis in our main narrative. But there is still our famous Volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE. We could assume that we could include MT VI there, what ever we do with the storyline here, we “just” would have to edit it accordingly. But I think that will not work. Once Melkor is bound by Angainor, I do not see a chance for that reveling first encounter between Manwe and Melkor since ages nor for the trembling moment of near repentance of Melkor once Tulkas has stepped forward as champion of the Valar to fight him down.

I hope, I could make my motivation clearer this time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. I certainly agree that, if possible, it would be nice to include as much of this elaboration of the characters of Manwe and Melkor as possible. I'm just not sure how much is possible.

It seems to me, though, that the more crucial point here is not so much Melkor's deceptive surrender at the climax of the battle as it is Manwe's inclination toward lenience and forgiveness. What if we were to keep the AAm/LQ narrative for the battle, with Melkor defeated and chained, but also keep the LT council where the Valar debate what to do with him? Then we would still have the strong characterization of Manwe as the seeker of reconciliation, but without having to rely on a sentence from MT to narrate a critical part of the story. We might even find it possible to touch up the LT council scene with bits from MT to suggest Melkor's feigned repentance at this point, and highlight Manwe's attempt at compromise. Thus, while rejecting the part of the MT story that contradicts AAm/LQ as an unimplementable projected change, we could use it to enrich the depiction of character and motive inherent in the earlier story. This would, in my opinion, do far less damage to Tolkien's texts than changing the whole story of the battle by splicing in sentences from MT.

I'd also note that I don't see the chaining of Melkor here as precluding the moment of realization by him and Manwe about his dispersal of power, nor the moment of near repentance. The only difference is that in this case, despite the realization, Melkor at first tries to fight anyway, and it is only after he is defeated that he has his trembling moment.

I wrote the above a week ago and intended to try my hand at editing the text in the way I suggest, but haven't had the time to sit down and do so. So I thought I might as well just post the suggestion so that you can think about the idea, and I'll try to provide a text to show what I have in mind later this week. Not sure if this idea is at all tenable for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Findegil]

Thank you for charring your thoughts. You may already anticipate that I will consider your idea only a second-best solution at best. But second best is sometimes what we have to accept for finding a consensus. And I am a professing combiner, so I am generally open for your idea.

But I have some doubts, that I may name here, for the sack of your editing process:
- The timing and setting of the moment of realization is critical: I think it is an important factor that it is first time meeting after the beginning of Arda. And I don’t see Melkor realize the real reason for his own shrinkage directly after a “physical” defeat by the hand of Tulkas. In such setting he would probably blame his weakness rather to that defeat than to his ‘dispersion’. I could accept that Manwe did not meet Melkor in person at or around Utumno, even if we can only tell that implicit. (we could at least use MK IV to mention that Melkor was led to Valinor at the end of the row, as anybody would assume that Manwe as leader of the homecoming victorious forces would be at the front.)
As you plan the moment of realization come at the council of the Valar that would decide about Melkor’s ‘doom’, I think we have to assume that he was led there not chained by Angainor. That item is at least for me more than a physical mean for chaining: It must have some mental binding characteristics to restrict one of the Valar (we have to take into account that it is still Melkor, who could by his own will leave the physical world behind, we are dealing with and not the later Morgoth who was bound to his physical body for good). Being chained by such an item would again weaken Melkor at least in his own perspective, and I at least have some problems to see him realize the real reason for his inability to daunt Manwe by his gaze while being bound by Angainor. Anyhow ‘knelling before Manwe’ seem improbable after he was ‘arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small, lying bound before the silver chair of Manwë.’
But material to work with that issue is there, since MT IV states: ‘Then he … would have … burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot.’ I would not use that to explain before hand why Melkor was not bound at the council but if we can use it later at its proper place (when the ‘doom’ is set) it will explain it in retrospect.
- That said, if we can handle it, we should as well include Melkor’s accusing Manwe of being faithless.
- I can see that at the council the insertions from MT IV will break the action much less, but the gap in style is still there and may be even worth with the text formed out of LT and MT. So, for the sake of your own idea beware of the ‘Frankenstein’-effect! ;-)

Looking forward to reading you editing.
Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings after such a long absence! With the new Nature of Middle-earth book coming out in the next month, I have been thinking once again of this project, and realized I never caught up and reviewed Aiwendil's proposed version of this chapter, and have not taken into account any of your discussions on the matter since. As it has been quite some time since I partook in this project (several years!) my familiarity with the chapter is next to none. I will start from the beginning of the thread and try to gather my thoughts on all the changes, and hopefully share my thoughts on it soon. I just wanted to let everyone know that I am going to return before I embarked on that project. I look forward to continuing!

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I look forward to continuing!

Me to! It is allway very welcome to have more oppioins in the discussions.

Welcome back.
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I have been trying to work my way through all of the developments, and I have to say, Aiwendil's changes are hard to track given the fundamental restructuring which comes from using a new base text. Could that new version with AAm as the base text be posted in the private forum for easier analysis? I don't have as much free time to restructure the text myself from scratch I'm afraid

[Findegil]

ArcusCalion, can you be a bit more specific where your stuck? I might be able to post a version of my working copy up to the recent main point of discussion. But that is of course not Aiwendils editing purely but (as far as it has come) the result of the discussion so far.

Aiwendil, re-reading our postings about your idea, I see that it must have been dicouraging for you. I am sorry for that, and I now think in the search for consensus more flexibility is worthwihle. I hope I got your idea of the storyline right:
- The Valar sake Angband and drive the forces of Melkor before them to Utumno
- The Valar set a watch upon Cuivienen.
- The Siege of Utumno with many a battle before the gates
- The Valar brake the Gates (by Orome's horn blow) and Manwe summons Melkor to come out.
- Melkor does not come out and the Valar unroof the Halls of Utumno while Melkor takes refuge in the uttermost pits and lunches his last attack by the Balrogs
- Conversation before the gate with Manwe warning about the demage that a farther open fight could cause and his searching allway for compromise rather than risking violence.
- The Valar lay down their weapons and decent into the pits of Utumno.
- Tulkas steps forward as the champion of the Valar and defeits Melkor.
- Melkor is bound with Angainor, draged out of Utumno and the Vorotemnar and Ilterendi are set upon him (=> Thus Melkor can on the one hand go by himself being followed by Tulkas clincing on the chain of Angainor - implicit holding the end of that chain avoiding Melkor to stray from the path - and later at the council not laying bound by Manwe's feed he can kneel before Manwe.)
- Melkor is led to Valinor
- and the Council to judge Melkor is set up. (He must not lay bound before the chair of Manwe!)
(- The argument of Makar from LT could be given to Melkor himself.)
- After the departure of Tulkas from the council we insert Melkor pleading for pardon and offering help in the repair of evils and hurts he had done. (This would be the only part of MT VI to be taken up into our text.)
- Manwe considering the case from LT.
- Manwe's judgement should be a mixture from LT, AAm and LS.

So I think now your story line idea to take the critcial moment of near repenteance to the council of the Valar juding Melkor's case can work and should be tried.

If you don't find time for the editing of the text, please speak up and I will try my best to work from your idea. If that is the way we go forward, please correct my story line from above if necessary.

Meanwhile I will take MT VI and try to edit in accord with that story line idea to fit our volume 3. I think it will be combined with MT VII. ArcusCalion, MT VII: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion was one chapter in your draft for volume III. Cab you provide your draft, so that I can see where to fit MT VI?

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Findegil, your updated version would be very helpful, if you still have my email.

As for Notes on Motives, I will email you what I have.

[Findegil]

As I made a kind of connected / parallel editing of the account of the War of Powers and its aftermath here and in Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, it does not make any sense to withhold the result here. Sorry Aiwendil if this renders some of your effort useless. To your relieve you will find as good as nothing added from MT. But you might still have some Frankenstein-feeling since the amount of LT material has been ‘enhanced’. But I think it should be bearable.
As a matter of fact I tried first to stick to Aiwendil’s story line as given in my post and when I produced the draft text, I was very optimistic about its success, and posted the draft for Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. But when I wrote in the remark about my editing CE-EX-39.1 my hope nearly fell to despair. That fatal comment read originally thus (see specially the underlined part):

In LT there has never been a second trial. Melkor did never sue for pardon, the doom was set and Melkor was handled accordingly, his time of punishment was only somewhat shortened due to the Valar’s joy about the coming of the Elves. In the later versions Melkor sues for pardon only after his imprisonment. But in MT VI we have him now sue for pardon much earlier (in the original text already in Utumno, in our version at the council of his doom – I think this the most critical fact about this editing: by setting the suing for pardon at this place we create a fact in Middle-earth without any hint that Tolkien meant it to be so). But MT VI says at the end that ‘The rest of the story, with Melkor's release … can then proceed more or less as already told.’ As we have no more specific information what Tolkien meant with the ‘more or less’, principal 2b forces us to go with a second trial and Melkor suing for pardon twice.

But I am not more easily daunted by such issues as Manwë is by Melkor’s gaze! The first way out of this dilemma I thought about comes from these passages from MT VII and UT, Istari: ‘He[ Manwë], like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence.’ ‘Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.’ At least the UT text is seemingly later than every text we work with here including MT VI. Taken to be literary truth that would mean Manwë is completely out of the campaign against Utumno and thus the first possible meeting of Manwë and Melkor is at council. But in that way we would sacrifice a lot:
- It seems strange to me if Manwë first orders the war against Melkor and then stays home, but in the end that is what Denethor would call the duty of a wise ruler.
- We never see Manwë stepping upon the blue chariot and wielding the bow that fired gusts of wind nor the sword of lightning to slay the Balrogs.
- The Balrogs can assail ‘the standard of Manwë’, but can they be ‘withered by the wind of his wrath’ when he is far away at the Mountain of Taniquetil? Probably yes, figuratively, but it is a stretch.
- All conversation with Manwë before the gate must be given to someone else or skipped.
At that point in my thought, I decided against Aiwendil’s Story line and remembered one of our best friends in editing: ambiguity.
The text that follows tries to combine both AAm/LQ story line and MT VI story line with both nearly unchanged. And since the plan is now to have MT VI as a whole, it should not be used (much) here and thus avoid the Frankenstein-effect.
The basic idea is the following: Change the text here in a way that Manwë and Melkor meet only after Melkor is bound and hint only at Manwë’s reaction to it as given in full in MT VI. Change MT VI so that Melkor is defeated by Tulkas and bound but than meets Manwë still at Utumno and sues for pardon right there. The changes necessary to MT VI will be discussed in the thread Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion.
Since the text is heavily edited, it makes no sense to reduce the text and I give it in full. Remarks on my editing will follow the text.

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.>CE-EX-28.6
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end}. CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aulë smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armour, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to warCE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Eönwë] who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35{Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fëanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar {and Omar }came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5b{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. }CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him.}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into CE-EX-37c <LT {There in }the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] , there they came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not{, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.>{the far North and}Thus began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100
§49 }That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37d <LT , when{Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but} Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Melkor] come forth. CE-EX-38.1cBut though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come>. Therefore Utumos CE-EX-37.5b{ and its} halls [h]were [/u]unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4c<LT{Then the Valar}Therefore Eönwë laid aside {their}[his] weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now they follow Manwë and his }then Tulkas followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said {Orome}[Eönwë]: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar - and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm And Melkor sued for pardon at the feet of Manwë, and humbled himself, and swore to abide his rule, and to aid the Valar in all ways that he could, for the good of Arda, and the profit of Valar and of Eldar, if so he should be granted freedom, and a place as the least of all the folk of Valinor.> CE-EX-38.9c<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> CE-EX-38.55b{ and}But {Melko}[Melkor] {borne}was led thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91c<LQ {Nonetheless the}The CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; CE-EX-44d <LT thereforeTulkas and Ulmo {break the gates of Utumna and pile}piled hills of stone upon {them}the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end>; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44.1 <AAm Thus ended the first war of the West upon the North.>
CE-EX-45b <LT After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage. His lip was split and his face has had a strange leer upon it since that buffet dealt him by TulkasCE-EX-45.1{, who even of policy could not endure to see the majesty of Manwë bow before the accursed one}.
Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46b; yet {Makar still spake for him, although not warmly}[Melkor spoke for himself], for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and {his}the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwë, and {even to Makar and Measse}[all the folk of Valinor] it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and {Palúrien}[Kementári] thought it merciful to peril.> CE-EX-47{and he}And Melkor was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages longCE-SL-18b{, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.> CE-EX-47.5 <LT Now {doth}did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while {Melko}[Melkor] bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart {grows}growed black within him.{
}Behold the tumults of the sea {abate}abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains {die}died; the earth {quakes}quaked no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice {is}was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South{, even to the regions about Ringil and Helkar}.>

I know that the numbering of the changes has become mess by now, but it seems inescapable when shifting around passages from different texts in the way we did.
CE-SL-11.5c – CE-SL-13 & CE-EX-28b – CE-EX-38.2b & CE-EX-39g: I think, these changes have already been agreed upon.
CE-EX-38.3: Even if we discussed this before, I may add here that it seems important to me to show Manwë’s reluctance even during the campaign.
CE-EX-38.4c & CE-EX-38.5c: Now only Eönwë and Tulkas enter Utumno to allow Manwë meet Melkor only after the fight.
CE-EX-38.51: Here the real changes being. As desired I kept fight between Tulkas and Melkor. The version of AAm has the benefit of given an additional reason why it is Tulkas alone.
CE-EX-38.52: When we keep the fight, then I don’t see a good reason not to take up the details from LT. But of course we have to skip Aulë giving aid.
CE-EX-38.53: There is here no change, but the question is if we consider that there is still vassalage to be commanded.
CE-EX-38.54: The question here is of course if we can still say, that Melkor form that moment in history wore the Vorotemnar and Ilterendi for ever. In LT that was no question, since he never after gave up his bodily form. But in later versions (that we follow) he escapes from Valinor by going first north than giving up bodily form and going south to meet Ungoliant.
Nonetheless I think he can be said to wear them. My reason is that these fetters have to have some verry special properties to bind an ealar. And we have an example of a physical object ‘transported’ by an ‘unhoused’ ealar: Sauron lost his body during the drowning of Númenor, but he caried the One Ring back to Middle-earth. For sure Sauron did that by his own free will and desire, but still I think with the special properties mentioned above Melkor could have been forced to carry the fetters along even when ‘unhoused’.
CE-EX-46.5b: The strange numbering of this and the next change are due to my first editing. I think this is the ideal place to put Melkor’s suing and implicitly the trembling moment of realisation. That the full implication of this moment is only understood afterwards when reading the analysis of MT VI in volume 3 is a virtue and not a buck: reading the text here as it stands, the reader can still hope with Manwë that Melkor really repented and was only driven away from it by the harsh doom that Manwë had to announce to satisfy the other Valar.
I took Melkor’s suing not from MT VI, because I wanted that text be stay intact. Instead it comes from the telling of the council that granted Melkor freedom after the imprisonment in Mandos as told in AAm. Up to now we used in our version telling about that later council the text from LQ which differs slightly. If we in the end use the text from AAm for that later council we will exchange this passage with the LQ text, to avoid exact same wording.
For the necessity for Melkor to sue twice see the discussion about CE-EX-39.1 below.
CE-EX-38.9c: The passage comes from a totally different place in LT, but if we want to use MT VI completely at a later point, than we cannot butcher it to pieces to form our text here. And we needed some text here to make the plot in MT VI work: Manwë must be shown to be driven by the demand of the assembly to a harsher doom than what he would have preferred (and Melkor expected).
CE-EX-38.55b: Here we have a second concession to enable my edit of MT VI to work: Melkor must be able to kneel before Manwë not lay all the time prostrated before his feet. And if he can kneel down, he can walk by himself and must not be ‘borne’. When at first he was just ‘warped around’ with Angainor, it is clear that Tulkas has to drag him out of the pits of Utumno. But now he is bound by the fetters and the chain and done in a usual way a prisoner bound thus can stand, sit down, lay down or kneel down (on both knees and he might have difficulties to come up again) and walk by his own but he cannot run. You can of course bind down prisoner with fetters and a chain more restrictive as exemplified on Morgoth after the War of Wrath, but I do see a necessity here for more movement possibilities, which at least seem plausible.
CE-EX-38.91c & CE-SL-17 & CE-EX-44d: These are nearly unchanged from my last version. They explain why there was some remains of Angband usable later and how Utumno was closed for Melkor for ever. In addition they give some worthwhile information about Melkors creatures either reassembled later or found in strange places like the door-warden in the lake at the west gate of Moria.
CE-EX-44.1: I found this a worthwhile addition from AAm.
CE-EX-45b: I extended this passage to include the leer upon Melkor’s face. If we take up the fight than its result should also be included. Again the question must be answered why Melkor could not ‘remove’ that leer when he build up a new body. (When he is later injured by Fingolfin and Thorondor, he is permanently incarnated as Morogth, so that limping and scars naturally remained.) But it seems that the ealar when housed in a body could not avoid to take some of the damage done to that body to have lasting effect. We have again Sauron as prominent example: First he drips blood after he was realised by Huan even so he had shape-shifted, and more important he had still only nine fingers when he tortured Gollum even so he had to rebuild that body longer after his defeat by the last alliance.
CE-EX-45.1: This reason for the fight from LT has to go.
CE-EX-46b: I gave Makar’s speech for Melkor’s case to Melkor himself. He seems the only one fit for putting same value into strife and conflict. And we must assume that he was allowed to speak in defence of his case.
CE-SL-14: This was agreed upon already.
CE-SL-15b: This we had changed when Melkor was chained, but now since he is bound by Angainor it can stand unchanged.
CE-EX-39f: This is actually the only phrase taken from MT and its inclusion serves the same reason as explained in the discussion of CE-EX-38.9c above.
CE-EX-39.1: In LT there has never been a second trial. Melkor did never sue for pardon, the doom was set and Melkor was handled accordingly, his time of punishment was only somewhat shortened due to the Valar’s joy about the coming of the Elves. In the later versions Melkor sues for pardon only after his imprisonment. But in MT VI we have him now sue for pardon much earlier. But MT VI says at the end that ‘The rest of the story, with Melkor's release … can then proceed more or less as already told.’ As we have no more specific information what Tolkien meant with the ‘more or less’, principal 2b forces us to go with a second trial and Melkor suing for pardon twice.
CE-EX-47 & CE-SL-16b: These are the remains of our basic text edited to a usable form. Part of it was used earlier.
CE-SL-18b: The original passage was as well used earlier, so it has to be removed here. And the passage inserted comes only from a few sentences above and might be a bit redundant.
CE-EX-47.5: The description of Melkor’s reaction to the doom and the peace that followed after his imprisonment are most detailed in LT and therefore taken up here.

Respectfully,
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Great to see you, ArcusCalion!

I had done some work on a new version along the lines of my proposal, but unfortunately a number of other things have conspired to keep me very busy. This will continue next week, but the week after I'll be on vacation and should have plenty of time to look over Findegil's latest post.

[ArcusCalion]

Well, after many days of reviewing and re-familiarizing myself with the text, the different versions, as well as the many many MANY layers of discussion about the same few paragraphs, I have organized my thoughts. Honestly, before reading Fin's last post, I had MANY more comments, but I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal, as it solves nearly (if not) all of Aiwendil's objections, while maintaining all of the essential essences of Tolkien's proposed changes from MT VI. Nonetheless, I have several, mostly minor stylistic or organizational suggestions, as well as various comments for other points in the chapter. Everything I do not specifically mention I agree to.

CE-EX-01: There is a portion of LT I think we can take up in the beginning here:

But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
CE-EX-01.5 <Lost Tales At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in. Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where {Melko}[Melkor] then dwelt in the deep dungeons of {Utumna}[Utumno]. Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before. But some few danced thither with gentle feet exuding evening scents, and these came from the gardens of Lóriën.
Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: — but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old {unelfin}[un-Elven] and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.>

That there are spirits living in the world during later days is a known fact (Goldberry the 'River's Daughter') as well as the myriad of speaking creatures in Tolkien's later writing. While it's true he makes no specific mention of these beings later on, I do not think their existence is contradicted, and I think it worthwhile to include them here.

CE-EX-03.2/03.3: Again, another small inclusion from the Lost Tales to add some color to Varda's making of the Stars:

.... by the Elves Elentári, the Queen of the Stars.
CE-EX-03.2 <LT {and}She fared upon her wings of speed, and set stars about the firmament in very great profusion, so that the skies grew marvelously fair and their glory was doubled; and those stars that she then fashioned have a power of slumbers, for the silver of their bodies came of the treasury of Lóriën and their radiance had lain in {Telimpe}[Silindirin] long time in his garden.> Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, CE-EX-03.3 <LT and {that} Morwinyon who blazes above the world's edge in the west was dropped by her as she fared in great haste back to Valinor.> {and}And other of her works ......

CE-EX-03.4/03.5: In the many cuts and pastes and rewrites to the text, I have this passage marked with the marker CE-EX-03 but that has already been used for the addition to the first paragraph. So I will label this marker CE-EX-03.4 and I wished to include a bit of LQ as it adds a nice detail and names a star not elsewhere named:

CE-EX-03.4 <AAm{§37} In that hour, it is said, CE-EX-03.5 <LQ when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world,> the Quendi, the Elder .....

CE-EX-26: The correct elvish should be Utúlieltë! Utúlieltë, so you were nearly right Aiwendil. I had mentioned this in one of my previous posts before Aiwendil proposed his own draft, but with all the developments of the chapter it is easy for such things to get lost.

CE-EX-27: I do not know why the use of 'Eldar' is problematic here. Just before this, we have this:

Themselves {they}the Elves named the Quendi CE-SL-10 {, whom we call Elves (quoth Ælfwine)}; but Oromë named them in their own tongue Eldar, people of the stars, .....

and directly after this change we have the folk of the Valar saying "I Eldar-tulier". Thus I think we should not change "Eldar" to "First-born. We have plenty of usage of Elvish words by the Valar before they met the Elves, so I think such idiosyncrasies can be chocked up to the fact that the Valar were likely in reality speaking Valarin, but the Elves recorded it in Elvish, and (for the purposes of our project) Bilbo left it in for flavor (much like Tolkien would have done).

CE-SL-11.5c: I would change the sentence very slightly:

... that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from {the}his shadows{ of Melkor}.'

CE-EX-28.2: Now to the question of Tilkal. I think we must address the etymology of the word, as simply deleting the footnote does not answer the question of its validity. Personally, I think Tolkien is being very deliberate here with this metal. I do not know how much any of you are familiar with alchemy/occultism, but the metals Tolkien cites here are 6 of the 7 metals associated with the planets, the days of the week, and various angels. Lead, Tin, Copper, Silver, Gold, Iron, and Tilkal the last (in occultism/alchemy the seventh is mercury). That Tolkien also deliberately made names for the planets which correspond to these metals (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and Moon) seems also no coincidence. Therefore, I think the odd etymology of the word is deliberate, and meant to invoke an alchemical/magical property of the metal itself. Therefore I think its inclusion and updating are worth doing. The later word for 'copper' is given as Urus, lead and tin are never given elsewhere, but these words fit well into later quenya phonology, and so may be accepted (Latúcen and Canu) and Anga for iron remains the same. Aiwendil is correct, however, that Laurë and Ilsa (later Silmë) are in later Quenya specifically words for light. However, we can simply use the name of the metal (Culu or Malta for gold and Tyelpë for silver). This gives us the letters U, L, C, A, T, and a C or M. Putting these together can give us the acronym Tulcam which is nearly identical, and I think worth using instead of tilkal, and we may update the elvish in the footnote accordingly.

CE-EX-28.4: As to the question of these words' validity in later Quenya, it is complex. Vorotemnar seems to be voro - "ever, always" and some derivative of the early "qenya" root ᴱ√TEME - 'to bind, to tie." However, another root was later given this same meaning in Quenya: ᴹ√NUT. In the text Tolkien says "Vorotemnar that bind forever" so if we take it to mean (literally) "ever-binding" we can use Voronutalë. As for Ilterendi, this is much less clear. All we can guess at its meaning is that it likely came from the early Qenya root ᴱ√YḶTḶ meaning "to yoke, join." From this qenya yalta "yoke", and Gnomish ilt- "to yoke, join." This seems to have been replaced by another root much later ᴹ√YAN "join" from which we get words like Quenya yanta "bridge." The (er)endi portion of the word is obscure to me. The text explains that the meaning signifies "they may not be filed or cleft." However, I do not see how this meaning can be gleaned from this word. Any replacement name we give them would be entirely invented on our part, but the name as it is cannot be said to be accurate Quenya.

CE-EX-35.1: I added a marker here for the discussion of Falman and Vailimo. I will do my best to lay out the linguistics of it. Falman is derived from the early version of the later root √PHAL - "foam, splash' as in falas and other words having to do with the shore. Specifically there exists the word Falma for 'crested wave' in later Quenya, which has been a word for a long time. The nominal ending -on is a common masculine name ending, and I believe Falman is simply an early version using -an instead of -on. Therefore I would keep the name, but change it to Falmon instead. As to Vailimo this is meant to be a title in the same vein as Súlimo, being a royal-type masculine suffix (-mo. Vai was Tolkien's old name for the Outer Ocean, which later became Vaiya and even later Ekkaia(Eccaia). I do not know if Eccaia replaced Vaiya or not, as both as still valid Quenya words with different etymologies, but from these we can get Vaiyamo or Eccaiamo as the updated title of Ulmo. Either should be fine, but I personally prefer Vaiyamo as it remains closer to the original and accords with it in meaning. Hopefully that made some sense!

CE-EX-36.5: This passage from the Grey Annals seems worth including, and indeed I suggested so earlier in the thread, but it undoubtedly got lost in the many revisions. Anyway, here seems the best place to put it:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. CE-EX-36.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But after two years the Valar passed into ....

Now we come to the stuff which Fin has done a marvelous job fixing up. I must say, I am very impressed. Just a few things.

CE-EX-46b: I do not think this speech from Makar quite works put into the mouth of Melkor. It feels too 'cheeky' from him when he is meant to be enraged/humbled/despondent/plotting all at once. I think it is best to leave this dialogue out.

CE-SL-15.2: I found a small addition from AAm which we can put here:

..... rather than making high debate of them. CE-EX-46.5 <AAm [Indeed] it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.> Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved .....

CE-EX-39.1: I am somewhat confused by the inclusion of the bit about dwelling as a servant in the house of Tulkas. Maybe I am forgetting something, but is this contradicting anything in the later text?

CE-EX-48: Tuivána is still a valid name for Vana, although it only appears in the Lost Tales. However, the Quenya is still good.

CE-EX-49: See my above comments for CE-EX-01.5 but I think the inclusion of these references is worth keeping.

CE-EX-50: I agree with Aiwendil that the references to Mandos and Nienna must be removed completely, but I think the dialogue we here attribute to Ulmo must go as well, as it completely goes against his character, as it was originally said by Makar:

... whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {- ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and Mandos and Fui were cold to the Eldar as to all else}; yet was Varda vehement in support ....

CE-EX-51.1: I agree with Aiwendil to remove the reference to Ossë entirely.

CE-EX-52b: I agree to the new placement suggested, but I also found an inclusion we can take from the Lost Tales:

CE-EX-52b <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen].> CE-EX-52.5 <LT Now all the slopes of that valley and the bare margin of the lake, even the rugged fringes of the hills beyond, {be}were filled with a concourse of folk who gazed in wonder at the stars, and some {sing}sang already with voices that {are}were very beautiful. But {Nornore}[Oromë] stood upon a hill and was amazed for the beauty of that folk, and because he was a Vala they seemed to him marvelously small and delicate and their faces wistful and tender. Then did he speak in the great voice of the Valar and all those shining faces turned towards his voice.
‘Behold O Eldalië, desired are ye for all the age of twilight, and sought for throughout the ages of peace, and I come even from Manwë Súlimo Lord of the {Gods}[Valar] who abides upon Taniquetil in peace and wisdom to you who are the Children of Ilúvatar, and these are the words he put into my mouth to speak: {Let now some few of you come}Come back with me {— for am I not Nornore herald of the Valar —} and enter Valinor and speak with him, that he may learn of your coming and of all your desires.’>
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling ....

CE-EX-58.3: I think even this small addition Fin kept of the larger linguistic material from Quendi and the Eldar should be removed. It feels far too analytical, and it would fit better within its proper context of the discussion of the terminology of the different elvish groups in Volume 3. I also hesitate with CE-EX-67 but I will leave it in, as it is primarily not linguistic. However, CE-EX-75 does not need to be added, as it can be placed in context in Volume 3.

I think we are nearly to the end of this chapter! It has been quite a hard, long, and heated process, but I really do think that this chapter is becoming far better than it was before thanks to all of our work together. I look forward to hearing from you both!

[Aiwendil]

I haven't had time to review the latest posts in detail (and will have to wait until probably next Saturday to do so) but I wanted to pop in to comment on one thing.

Findegil wrote:

The first way out of this dilemma I thought about comes from these passages from MT VII and UT, Istari: ‘He[ Manwë], like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence.’ ‘Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.’ At least the UT text is seemingly later than every text we work with here including MT VI. Taken to be literary truth that would mean Manwë is completely out of the campaign against Utumno and thus the first possible meeting of Manwë and Melkor is at council.

I think you are misreading the context of that statement from UT. The point of view of those essays always seems to be that of the late Third Age, or at least, long after the First Age. It does not say "Manwe <i>did</i> not descend from the Mountain . . ."; it says "Manwe <i>will</i> not descend . . ." It is a statement about the future, not the past. To take this to mean that once his halls were built on Taniquetil, he never left them seems to me to be absurd, and I certainly don't think we should be editing texts to <i>remove</i> him from the Battle of the Powers.

I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the main thrust of your proposal, and again, I'm looking forward to reviewing that when I can, but I just wanted to comment on this one point.

[Findegil]

I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal

Thank you for the flowers, but let me first see, what Aiwendil has to say, before I claim that I can still make a decent compromise-draft.
Reading further howmany of your suggestions have not yet found my working copy, I have some doubts about my talent as a text keeper. For execuse I can only bring forward that the chapter is still work in progress and that before prepare a text for an update in the forum, I check all the discussion. But still it is doubtfull if I would have catched them all. In short I am glad you made that review and reminded me!

CE-EX-01.5: I like that addition, even so it is not clear what spirits are meant (as it shuold not be for sure) we have later examples as you mention.

CE-EX-03.2 & CE-EX-03.3: I agree to these addition as well. Even so we might suspect that it is more legendary than a real description of Varda at work. (I personanly find it very sad, that Christopher Tolkien did cut out the actual smithing of the sun-ship by Aulë in LT.)

CE-EX-03.5: Good catch! How did that got lost? May be at one point we thought of including Telimektar, who was to become that configuration of stars, but I can't remember.

CE-EX-26: It is good to have your input in all these linguistical questions! Utúlieltë it will be and I corrected as well the answer tu utúlier.

CE-EX-27: The idea behind the change was that none of the Valar could have know that name, since up to that time Oromë had it given to the Quendi when he was alone with them. But in the end the communication of the Valar might be always in more than level (verbal and mental) and therefore it might be obvious to the other Valar and Maiar what he meant. Or we might asume your explanation of transfered texts.

CE-SL-11.5c: I agree to your change. But it will be CE-SL-11.5d then.

CE-EX-28.2: I do not see how you landed at Tulcal. In the original we have Qenya Tambe, Ilsa, Latunken, Kanu, Anga, Laure => Tilkal. Now this would in Quenya change to Urus, Tyelpë, Latúcen, Canu, Anga, Culu => Uilcac
Even if we change the order (wish I am hesistant about) we have only one L and thus can't build Tulcal.

CE-EX-28.4: I can't help much in this questions, but with yoked/joined as on element the other element must mean some thing like everlasting.

Sad as it is, it seems to me that if we do not find beter solution for the lingustical riddels, we have to eliminat all 3 names.

CE-EX-35.1: I have nothing to add to Falman => Falmon. But to Valimo => Vaiyamo: Vaiya we considered still valid when we discussed Ambarcanta. There we have still the concept of Vaiya being more like water below and more like air above the earth. And we are told that the more sea-like part is called Ekkaia. But in the next sentence we are told: 'In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.' Thus Vaiyamo seems fully justified.


CE-EX-35.1: I agree to includ this passage, but I think it has to come a bit earlier:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth CE-EX-36.2b{, and all that region was much broken}.<GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into ...

CE-EX-46: Well it was a trial. We can leave it out, which is the saver way.

CE-EX-46.5: I missed not only that passage but as well the sentence before it: 'There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe.' Thus as a fact that I missed in AAm which is the last version before MT VI we have Melkor sue for pardon twice: first at the council after the War of Powers and a second time after his 3 ages of imprisonment. This does render my first attemp, that I mentioned at the begining of my last post possible. I will give it below as far as necessary to show its differences and discuss its pros and cons.
As for this version this is a good addition where ArcusCalion put it.

CE-EX-39.1: Not explicitly contradicted but, ArcusCalion is right we have to change this:

CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."

CE-EX-48 - CE-EX-51.1: Agreed.

CE-EX-52.5: Good find! I agree to its inclusion.

CE-EX-58.3 & CE-EX-67: I agree that with Q&E given in volume 3 in full, this both this passages should be removed here.

Aiwendil, I have read your post as well, even so you posted it while I worked on my again overlong posting. You might be right and I rejected that way out anyway. But as mentioned in the discussion of CE-EX-46.5 the dilemma was anyhow not there because AAm has Melkor sue for pardon twice and the first time during the council we discuss here, which I missed. So I give here as an alternative the view changes that were different in that draft I had made first:

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow Manwë and his}followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said Orome: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar -- and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these and {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.55{borne}[led] thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns …
…
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm{There he lay upon his face}[Melkor kneeled] before the feet of Manwë, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwë. But{ his prayer was denied, and} it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.>
CE-EX-38.9b<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> {and his}But the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
…

The pro of this version is that the defeat of Melkor by Tulkas is some time gone by before he meets Manwë at the council. But the con is that it forces us to make changes in the story line of MT VI. In the end we might even let Melkor sue for pardon thrice.

Respectfully,
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

To all Fin's replies to my points I agree.

CE-EX-28.2: I realized that myself, and went back to edit my post. Malta is another valid late Quenya word for gold. Culu is later said to be more red-gold, and Malta yellow-gold. Either works here I think, and having an M will be easier. So that gives us T, M, U, L, C, A. This can make Tulcam which I think works. I think it is worth keeping this word.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-28.2: I agree to use Malte since any how red-gold is always an alloy of gold with same conetent of copper (to get the red coulur), while yellow-gold is the pureer stuff (normaly with some very small content of an other metal to get more hardness).
And of course Utlcam does not sound right, so we have to change the order to Tulcam. But I would like to let the order in the text as it is and provide in the note the Quenya names of the metals and the english equivalent. My reason for it is that to get a red metal you would meed copper as a main alloying element. Therefore it could be that the elements are in order of content and even if they are in order of puting them in the mixture it would be a chame to lose that info. It might well be that Tolkien just had the names already composed and ordered them build a good sounding word. But with two of the names never used elswhere and two names label 'magic' it looks rather like an intricated composition process in which the order was may be not as freely chosen as we think.

... Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2b therefore {tilkal}[tulcam,[Footnote to the text: {T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the 'magic' names of ordinary telpe and kulu}[T(yelpë silver) U(rus copper) L(atúcen tin) C(anu lead) A(nga iron) M(alte gold)].] and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. ...

CE-EX-28.4: Ilterendi: I found in the Appendix Names in the Lost Tales - Part I. the follwoing:

Ilterendi In the text the fetters are called Ilterendi 'for they might not be filed or cleft' (p. 107); but root TERE in QL has derivatives with a sense of 'boring' (tereva 'piercing', teret 'auger, gimlet').

This suggestes for me at least that Christopher Tolkien nonetheless sought that -(t)erendi was a derivate of the qenya rout TERE. Possibly TERE had a more general meaning like 'to cut (by ship removal)'. Anyhow I do not know if that info is helpfull to find a quenya rout to from a replacement word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

CE-EX-28.2: As unfortunate as it is, I think we will have to rearrange the order if we want to keep it. I agree to the edit you posted.

CE-EX-28.4: Ah good find! In that case I think the likely etymology of the word comes from teren(d) 'file, pierce, cleft' as a speculative derivative of ᴱ√TERE 'to pierce, bore' with the early Qenya negative prefix il- giving it the meaning 'Non-pierced.' This translation basically accords with the stated 'cannot be filed or cleft' definition. The same root became ᴹ√TER 'to pierce' Which is nearly identical, and produces many similar derivatives, so I think we can safely leave the second part of the word. However, il- in later Quenya means 'all, every' and the negative prefix was changed. La- seems like the most similar late Quenya version. This would give us Laterendi. I am happy with this if everyone else agrees to it.