Feedback and Suggestion Box

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that it would be illuminating to include brief references to the HoME writings where this serves to support or clarify a point raised in relation to the final text. Anything more detailed than that, however, would I think only serve to confuse the discussion, particularly as many of us haven't read any of the HoME series yet (OK OK, I know! It's on my list, alright. ).

If there is to be a more detailed discussion of the HoME material, I would suggest opening new threads for this in the Chapter-by-Chapter section.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Agreed. I'm not suggesting we never wander beyond the boundary of the pages of the LotR. Well-annotated and pertinence references to ther sources can be quite interesting, but only if they don't pull us away from the chapter at hand.

[davem]

Barrow-Wight

I think we need to keep HoME stuff out of the Chapter-by-chapter discussions. The idea was to discuss the Lord of the Rings and not the entire span of JRRT's writings, right?

&

HoME is a wonderful resource for those who are interested in delving so deeply into the foundations of the story, but HoME is not LotR.

The thing that has always made me uncomfortable about the publication of the volumes of HoME that related to LotR is that, unlike the material contained in the other volumes, we know for a fact that Tolkien had rejected the stuff in the early drafts of LotR.

This begs the question of whether that material should play any part in a discussion of LotR. Part of me wants it included in this discussion, but I know the danger - that it would exclude too many people who aren't familiar with HoME.

Also, we have to keep in mind always, that some readers like to indulge in the fantasy that LotR is 'real' history, & don't want to be reminded that its all 'made up' by being presented with different versions of the story - it can destroy the magic (breaking things to find out what they're made of, etc) Besides, the Books forum is still going - we don't have to include everything in the chapter-by chapter section.

[The Saucepan Man]

On another point, I'm probably being terribly "anoraky" here, but would it be possible to amend the titles of the Foreword and Prologue threads to include something like "A." before the heading? Otherwise they appear below the chapter threads when organised alphabetically by thread title.

[Mister Underhill]

We've been careful to name the threads to make sure they sort properly. Sort by thread title, ascending, and everything should be hunky-dory.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oops! I was sorting by "thread starter". Never noticed that little double dash in there. Just ignore me!

[mark12_30]

BW, I agree that cluttering up the Chapter-by-Chapter area is not good. That was why I suggested (a) thread(s) in Books proper.

Still waiting for Child and Esty to weigh in...

[Bêthberry]

I share the same hesitations which BW and Mr. Underhill have about letting HoME material intrude too greatly into the Chapter by Chapter discussion. There are already readers who have questioned whether the discussion is for older or newer members and I think too great a reference to HoME would discourage the newer members who likely have read neither HoME nor UT or quite possibly even The Silm.

It is very tempting for those of us who have had previous discussions on the various topics to assume unconsciously a knowledge of those discussion and go on from there. This I think we have to be careful of, and remember always to provide links and explanations so that the newer members feel drawn into the discussion and not excluded because it looks like an insiders' talk.

I think we are all carefully balancing between what is/was our 'first' reading experience and our later reading experiences of LOtR. Much as I am intrigued by alternate texts--and certainly have no fear of knowledge of them destroying my enjoyment of the final published version--I think the fun of this discussion is the exploration of how we all read in so many different ways. To include many versions would I think take away this focus on our unique reading experiences towards trying to create some 'authoritative interpretation.' This could possibly discourage those who don't see or follow or understand 'the party line' (said jokingly of course) and we would thereby be losing others who have much to offer.

Cheers.

[tar-ancalime]

davem said:

Also, we have to keep in mind always, that some readers like to indulge in the fantasy that LotR is 'real' history, & don't want to be reminded that its all 'made up' by being presented with different versions of the story - it can destroy the magic (breaking things to find out what they're made of, etc)

I think that alternate versions of stories promote the fantasy/conceit/whatever that LotR et al is real history. It seems to me that most of historical research consists of sifting through conflicting reports of events and trying to find or compile the account that is most in accordance with the historian's motives (such as an abstract idea of "truth," the glorification or demonization of particular historical figures or cultures, or some parallel with present events, for instance). The messier and more contradictory the sources, the more they are like real historical primary sources.

Not that I'm trying to weigh in on whether HoME should be part of these discussions--I haven't read it myself, and in fact haven't even been posting much on the chapter-by-chapter discussions, simply because they move too fast for me to keep up! I'm enjoying following along, though. There are lots of great ideas going around.

(I apologize if this comment is not appropriate for this thread--it's not really a suggestion at all--it's just that the possibility of alternate accounts is one of the things that I've always liked best about Tolkien.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've read through the various suggestions here and agree that HoME should play only a small part in the Chapter-by-Chapter LotR discussions, since it is another book altogether. However, the parallel discussion is interesting for those who would like to join in, including myself. I suggest we open a thread on the main Books forum, named after the volume being discussed - in this case, The Return of the Shadow.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Please excuse my absence. I had my hands full today with family obligations and was surprised to return and find I had unknowingly generated a small "tornado".

Your suggestion seems wise, Esty, regarding a separate thread. My initial intent was not to start a full-scale discussion of HoMe, although I will be glad to contribute to such a thread in the Books forum. Rather it was a personal resolve to read through the two books in tandem, and, where something was directly pertinent to the wider discussion, to mention that briefly in the chapter thread-- perhaps just two or three sentences--in the same way that many others have quoted various sources. I am assuming this wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, on my own time, I do intend to look at certain things in depth, and one of these is the vexing question of how and when Tolkien's "Christian" revisions came about. But, if I found something interesting, I assumed that it would eventually go up on a separate thread in Books, either an old one or a new one.

Just one comment as to the importance of HoMe.... my interest in HoMe is not so much in looking at those ideas and motifs that were rejected, but rather to see exactly when the ideas, characters, names, etc. that did become part of the book first made their appearance. In this sense, I do think HoMe is more than simply a collection of rejected drafts. Each draft built on the one before. Through its pages, we can gain a better idea of how JRRT constructed his story, the process of writing and evolving ideas. But I do agree that such an in-depth discussion would be better off separate from the chapter-by-chapter thread.

I hope this clarifies things, at least in terms of what I was thinking.

[Mister Underhill]

That sounds perfectly reasonable. We've already started out in that spirit with discussion of the original version of the Foreword. A few references to points of interest on how or why certain elements developed would be, I think, generally interesting and not exclusionary.

More in-depth discussion of a particular point, or of aspects of HoME which might not fit well here, can be carried on in the Chapter-by-Chapter HoME Companion thread that I've set up in Books.

We'll start with one thread for now and see how it goes. We can easily expand to, say, a thread per HoLotR book if it looks like the conversation will bear it.

[HerenIstarion]

Suggestion: let us make a thread (or even a poll) for "the most popular chapter in the book"?

let me explain myself:

Chapter by Chapter discussion sub-forum provides information in two categories: most replies and most views. I suppose both can index how much people enjoy this or that particular chapter. Purely statistical calculations show that the most popular (?!) is the prologue:

The situation as for today:

Replies:

1. Prologue - 101
2. Foreword - 97
3. Chapter 02 - 76

4. Chapter 01 - 64
5. Chapter 10 - 58
6. Chapter 03 - 56
7. Chapter 04 - 53
8. Chapter 07 - 45
9. Chapter 05 - 36
10. Chapter 06 - 32
11. Chapter 08 - 28
12. Chapter 11 - 15
13. Chapter 09 - 14

Views:

1. Foreword - 2,201
2. Prologue - 1,752
3. Chapter 01 - 1,295

4. Chapter 02 - 1,194
5. Chapter 03 - 976
6. Chapter 04 - 774
7. Chapter 07 - 704
8. Chapter 10 - 610
9. Chapter 06 - 519
10. Chapter 05 - 510
11. Chapter 08 - 473
12. Chapter 09 - 317
13. Chapter 11 - 217

So, the overall ratio would be:

1. Prologue ((1+2)/2 = 1.5)
-. Foreword ((2+1)/2 = 1.5)
3. Chapter 02 ((3+4)/2 = 3.5)
-. Chapter 01 ((4+3)/2=3.5)
5. Chapter 03 ((6+5)/2=5.5)
6. Chapter 10 (5+8)/2=6.5)
7. Chapter 04 ((7+7)/2=7)
8. Chapter 07 ((8+7)/2=7.5)
9. Chapter 05 ((9+10)/2=9.5)
-. Chapter 06 ((10+9)/2=9.5)
11. Chapter 08 ((11+11)/2=11)
12. Chapter 11 ((12+13)/2=12.5)
-. Chapter 09 ((13+12)/2=12.5)

Now, both depend on time of each particular chapter discussion being around (the latter, by views, more so), and the summer time and lack of number of members due to their vacation time may be affecting the statistics too, but I believe it would be fun to compare the notes by the end of the discussion maraphon. The chapter with the ratio most close to 1 will be the winner.

What do you think?

[Bêthberry]

Ah, sweet HerenIstarion, how you do love numbers as well as words!

If I may be so bold, I think there is a flaw in this arguement, a fly in the ointment, a false ipso facto, a road incorrectly taken etc. What if the replies and the views are inspired not so much by Tolkien's chapters as by the threads themselves, by the very ideas the posters raise about the chapters? After all, I have a wee hunch that some of us just love to niggle away at each other's arguements more than discuss the Professor. *shocked look that such might be the case, but fears it is*

Now, if such is the case, these statistics generate "Most popular discussion" rather than "Most popular chapter". We might even be able to generate a "Most common duelling posters" statistic or something like that. The "Pens at fifty paces" award!

Mayhap it is the presence of certain posters which produces the most popular chapter discussion? If Saucy's away, do fewer play? Or is the battle cry, "Meet you at the Fordim" or "On the Mark" ? Is there a dark and winding davem that draws us on? Are we fond of a Red Heron?

You haven't, by the way, been watching too much Olympic coverage have you? I see you don't offer gold, silver and bronze finalists, and so I am heartened.

To be honest, I don't think size of the thread matters much at all. Sometimes the truest heights of a discussion can be reached by shortest or even quickest means. And after all, likely it is different for each of us every time, isn't it? We will each have our own preferred position in regard to the chapters.

Humbly submitted,
Bb

[HerenIstarion]

Maybe you're right, my lady

But with regards to this particular sub-forum, I believe that chapters themselves have their say too (I know which would win the 'most [insert word of your choice here] discussion in the Books award (yes, you guessed it, it's a C-word, a C-word)). But even C-word would loose to certain RPGs, if we set out to find the most popular discussion on the global BD plain.

So, the title maybe modified to run as

Chapter giving most mental pabulum for online debate!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Is there a dark and winding davem that draws us on?

Of course there is, but by the time you realise where its leading you, it'll BE TOO LATE!!! Ha ha, ha ha ha! Mwhaaaaaaaa!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Meet you at the Fordim. . .

"beyond the thistly hedge with pistols, or rapiers drawn!"

"Most common duelling posters" statistic or something like that. The "Pens at fifty paces" award!

Of whom is Bb thinking? Any ideas davem, for I am perplexed.

[HerenIstarion]

I suppose you can use it as personal title, when invitation to one reaches you

Just look at it:

davem
dark and winding one
post: XXXX

[Bêthberry]

Chapter giving most mental pabulum for online debate!

Spot on, Istarion! (I admire how your nick is so alphabetical. Makes me want to come up with a j/k. ) And sometimes we have the less refined version, that sort of good, solid Scottish porridge which coats our stomach and girds us for the not debauch but debacle.

And indeed,davem is most entitled. But I suspect in this regard he shall play the iconoclast.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

BD Press Release

Professor Fordim Hedgethistle, BA MA PhD today announced the launch of the Barrow Down's first Non Governmental Organisation: PEster Davem for A New Title (PEDANT).

Prof Hedgethistle told those present that he had learned from "an extremely reliable source" that davem has recieved an offer of a personal title, but that he has -- as yet -- not take up the option of submitting one to the Wight.

Prof Hedgethistle went on to say that he, along with "many other concerned Downers" felt that davem's lack of a title made little sense given his current standing in the reputation rankings, and in particular, given his "remarkable ability to stimulate intelligent discussion in a variety of threads."

All Downers interested in contributing to PEDANT may do so by reviewing the new thread in "Mirth" that Prof. Hedgethistle will be opening soon.

[mark12_30]

Bethberry, Fordim is alphabetical too. Fordim Gauntlet Hedgethistle.

See you at the Fordim, Gauntlets optional, behind the Hedge.

(And while he's titling himself, davem can get with an avatar too.)

[HerenIstarion]

He has both now, my compliments

But what about the proposed poll? I suppose, if we are for it, than technically UBB soft allows to make polls (to let it look nicer than mere calculations of mine inside ordinary post)

[Lathriel]

I don't know if this is mentioned before but after we are done with discussing all the chapters how about discussing certain passages that are very powerful.
Then we can say how we feel about them, what we think they mean (If they are ambiguos) or if the foreshadow certain events.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It's nice to have a new comment on this old thread - knowing that you're thinking of the future of these discussions is encouraging! But why not discuss the powerful passages right in the context of their respective chapters? I'm afraid waiting for an additional discussion would take lots of patience, since it has been suggested and planned that we go through the Hobbit and the Silmarillion chapter by chapter after we finish LotR. That should keep us busy for the next couple of years...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Easter holiday weekend has kept me busy these past days, and I think there are others with little time this week, or who are away on spring break. Therefore I'm postponing the opening of a new chapter thread for a week to give those who wish to post on the current discussion a chance to catch up.

[Bêthberry]

There will be a slight delay in the opening of the next chapter by chapter discussion thread (for "The Choices of Master Samwise"). Please continue discussing the current chapter, "Shelob's Lair," or review any of the previous chapter discussions.

Thanks for your patience! Estelyn will return shortly with the new thread introduction.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The thread for Chapter 10, Book 4 is now up - sorry about the delay, which was due to technical problems with my PC/internet connection.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Esty -

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I thought I'd throw it out and see what you think.

I have been so crazy busy this year. One of the things that had to drop was the Chapter by Chapter discussions (not the reading but the posting). Would we want to designate certain times in the summer as "catch up week"......conceivably one week a month, perhaps over two months? No new chapter would go up, but folks would be encouraged to post on discussions they had missed. It's true that people can do this anytime, but you'd likely get more interaction and discussion when you have a number of posts going up at once.

I may be the only one interested in this, and it would slow you down. But I wanted to raise the suggestion.

Child

[davem]

I supposed if we planned to complete our read through by the end of the year then that would give us a couple of months during the summer to do that - people have vacations planned (& some of us will be away in August for a week for Tolkien 2005 - I know Esty is planning to be there so maybe she's planning to put discussion on hold for that week anyway)

In short, I wouldn't have a problem with this....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I thought I'd throw it out and see what you think.

I have been so crazy busy this year. One of the things that had to drop was the Chapter by Chapter discussions (not the reading but the posting). Would we want to designate certain times in the summer as "catch up week"......conceivably one week a month, perhaps over two months? No new chapter would go up, but folks would be encouraged to post on discussions they had missed. It's true that people can do this anytime, but you'd likely get more interaction and discussion when you have a number of posts going up at once.

I may be the only one interested in this, and it would slow you down. But I wanted to raise the suggestion.

Hear hear! Hear hear!

I have fallen so far behind in the discussion, both with posting and (shame) reading it that I had all but given up even the pretense that I could get back to it. A chance to catch up would be very welcome indeed!!!!!

Perhaps we could aim to have the whole discussion wrapped up in time for the wedding??

[davem]

We could stop now for a couple of weeks - only a suggestion - as we've just hit the end of vol 2. It would seem the best place, as if we start the next book it will be hard to find a good stopping point till we get to the end of book 5.

Or is this too sudden?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A break is fine with me, if that's wished by a number of active participants. I'd be happy to see more back in the discussion! I'm just not sure yet what's the best way to do it - shall we take a break of several weeks now, at a logical stopping point, as davem suggests? Problem is, I'll be away on vacation for most of June, so if we do stop for now, it would be a long break.

Slowing down to two-week-long intervals would be the alternative - starting the next chapter a week from now and each following one two weeks later for the summer months, then getting back into the one week rhythm in late August.

Please cast your votes for one or the other suggestion - thanks!

[davem]

Well, if we did take a long break here & start up again at the end of June we'd be kind of recreating what happened 50 years ago when LotR was published, with vols 1&2 being published in 1954 & vol 3 in 1955, so we would have a precedent!

It might be good to reassess where we've got to so far, & see if our later ideas have altered our thoughts on earlier chapters...

Having said that....

'The Missus' has just said she favours the two-weekly option so I suppose I have to go for that now...

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

So glad that a slow down is being considered! While I have managed to keep up with the book, for the most part, keeping up with the thread is another matter! This last one looks like it is going along rather well!

Actually, I am of the opinion that going to two week intervals through the rest of the story and not just the summer, may be something to consider. That would give one week to read the chapter and the other to read the thread (and hopefully contribute). Sorry to offer up a third option here, but I have been having trouble keeping up even in the winter!

[Lathriel]

I wouldn't mind this slow down either since I will be gone a lot this summer. I will be gone for about a month and i don' think I hav time to go on the internet or if I can even get internet acces.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There's not enough feedback on the question of a slowdown for a general consensus yet, so please keep your votes coming! However, I shall start off by postponing this week's new chapter discussion for a week - should a longer break be desired, the postponement can continue after that. If not, the new thread will be up by next Monday. Thanks!

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Fordim

I have fallen so far behind in the discussion, both with posting and (shame) reading it that I had all but given up even the pretense that I could get back to it. A chance to catch up would be very welcome indeed!!!!!

Though five exclamation marks be sure sign of insane mind... I could sign my name under the statement too...

[Bêthberry]

A slow down is certainly fine by me, as I have been able to keep up only sporadically.

My hesitation about a long hiatus would be the possibility that cranking it up again might be hard to do--what is inactive or not active is easily forgotten, especially on the Net. As to davem's suggestion that we recreate the publishing history of LotR itself, well, alls I can say is that reading Tolkien is probably more exciting than reading our posts; he could handle the hiatus; can we?

I guess I go for the two-week interval and see how it goes. There might not be any reason to go back to the once a week schedule as in the fall people might still be busy and want some breathing time.

jmho

[davem]

Just wondering...

Wasn't this pause in the proceedings intended so that those who had missed out on earlier chapters could catch up & post somthing on them, & maybe spark new debate?

Its starting to look like no-one is doing that. I can understand that those of us who have kept up with the weekly discussions might feel that we have said all we have to say on the chapters so far, so have nothing new to put on, but if no-one is going to bother bringing up anything on the earlier chapters, maybe it would be better to forget this & go back to our regular weekly discussion otherwise all this slow down is going to do is kill the whole discussion off.

Could we maybe have a poll to see what people want? Also, maybe we could have some kind of promise from those asking for a slow down so that they can catch up & contribute that they will actually do that?

[Guinevere]

I regret very much that I have let myself lag behind so far, and am ever so glad if it goes a bit slower now!
But I can't promise to contribute in all the threads I follow because when I have read the chapter, and then the discussion , I usually find that the very things I wanted to say have already been said (and much better than I could say them.) Anyhow, I don't have an analytical mind, and words don't come so easy to me. But I do enjoy reading what you all write! Just picture me sitting in the discussion round, silently nodding (or, occasionally, shaking my head. )