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#41 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Did Frodo say 'Yes!' to the Ring? Did he affirm it, effectively declare 'I will the continued existence of this thing'?
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There's an interesting quote from Kathryn W Crabbe given in the new LotR: A Reader's Companion: Quote:
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#42 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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Apologies in advance for a muddled post...
1. No sinful being (i.e., no one in Arda) could have destroyed the Ring. 2. Frodo was doing the right thing by bearing the Ring to Mt. Doom. I don't think that anyone would disagree with either of these statements. The former is a well-established fact; the latter, a logical statement. Frodo would have certainly been doing the wrong thing if he had decided to lay the Ring aside, or to give up and die somewhere along the way, or even decide just to remain in the Shire or Rivendell or Lorien, choosing his own comfort over what needed to be done. Taking the Ring to Mordor was the right thing to do, and he performed the deed with all of his strength and will, figuring he would be lost in the end. This is the problem I have with the statement that Frodo failed and sinned. If he took the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom, coming as far as anyone could, then saying it was sinning and failing to claim the Ring, it's saying that failing is a "required" part of the job - the job of doing the right thing. He has no choice other than to fail, due to the nature of the Ring and that of Arda Marred. It's saying he sinned by not doing a deed that couldn't be done, that even by doing the right thing, he had no choice but to do the wrong thing in the end, that failure is the only option. This seems so wrong. And yet, I start to see where davem is coming from, because that's the way this world is, too, isn't it? At least, it is from a Christian worldview - mine, and that of Tolkien... Frodo failed to destroy the Ring, yes. But he succeeded in doing the task as well as he could possibly do it; he succeeded in his mercy towards Gollum - the same mercy which ultimately allowed the Quest to succeed. Frodo's "failure" on Mt. Doom was not a moral one - he could not have behaved in any other way, so how can he be blamed? Saying he needs forgiveness is saying he can be blamed. If Gollum had not danced off the edge of the cliff and the Ring had not been destroyed, it would not have been Frodo's fault any more than it is his fault for living in an imperfect world. The failure Frodo needs forgiveness for comes afterwards, in thinking that he could have, should have, destroyed the Ring. This is what he needs to reconcile with himself. *Retreats back into her barrow where she actually knows what she thinks.* |
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#43 | |
Dead Serious
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Don't we usually want forgiveness for ANYTHING we've done wrong? Mistakes or accidents, in particular. These are errors, things done wrong, in which we are definitely culpable, things for which we often ask forgiveness. It's not really as if we are SINFUL in mistaking things, or making mistakes, or that an accident was sinful, but we are still the hand responsible, and we still seek forgiveness. Can Frodo's "need for forgiveness" after Mt. Doom be likened to that?
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#44 |
Illustrious Ulair
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His 'sin' was not in failing to destroy the Ring, it was in affirming its existence - the existence of evil in the world.
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#45 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Hmmmm.....it just occurs to me -- in reading the next chapter "The Field of Cormallen" -- if Frodo really was in need of forgiveness, then why did not Gandalf forgive him? One would think that the White Wizard, particularly now that Sauron is dead and he is free to reveal himself more fully as the Maia that he is, would be able to 'diagnose' Frodo's need for such absolution.
The obvious answer would be that true penance must be sought and asked for, and that Frodo never asks Gandalf to forgive him: but as it's so clear that Frodo is beating himself up for his failure (as the story goes on) and as Gandalf clearly wants to help 'heal' Frodo of his feelings, I would think that a quick conversation in the days after 25 March would have been called for: "I know your feelings, Frodo, but you must not blame yourself. Forgiveness is yours, but first you must learn to forgive yourself" -- or something like that. I think the fact that Frodo meets -- and spends time with -- all of Middle-Earths real heavyweights without ANY OF THEM talking about forgiveness might be a clue of some kind. I mean, even if Gandalf has 'missed' something here, surely Aragorn, Arwen, Galadriel or Elrond would have picked up on it. The only solution they can arrive at is to send Frodo into the West -- so "I forgive you" is neither not enough or not appropriate...
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#46 |
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Hmmm... Interesting thoughts.
Maybe the fact of the matter is that Frodo needed to feel forgiveness from someone who he felt had the authority to forgive him. Maybe he didn't feel that forgiveness from a friend would do the job. "You're just saying that because you're my friend..." Just a thought. I'm no psychologist.
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#47 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Its also interesting that Frodo's deepest wound, & the one most difficult to heal, is self-inflicted.
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#48 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Davem, you've come closest to how I feel about Frodo at the Cracks of Doom.
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So why did the Quest succeed? BECAUSE OF FORGIVENESS AND FINALLY REDEMPTION. (which is one of the bases of Christian Faith by the way) Frodo forgave Gollum on a number of occasions. He let him live. Even at the end Sam let Gollum live too on the slopes of Mount Doom. WITHOUT THIS FORGIVENESS the Quest would have failed. I put it to you that Tolkien knew this and based the whole of Frodo's Quest on this basic point......Frodo found Redemption (via Gollum) becuase of his forgiveness to him. Without this, Sauron would have won. Frodo and the whole of Middle Earth was Redeemed becuase of Frodo and Sam's Forgiveness of Gollum. PS Just imagine if Frodo DID throw the Ring in. Now what a let down and anti climax THAT would have been!!!!!!! To conclude: Fact - The Quest was to destroy the Ring. Fact - The Ring was destroyed Fact - The Quest was a success |
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#49 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Point of Order: Frodo never actually forgives Gollum he says that he pities him. These are two different things -- one can feel pity for the criminal whom is being sentenced to death but feel that the sentence is just: "You deserve to die for your crime, but I feel sorry for you insofar as you made bad choices in your life which have led to this".
In the conversation with Gandalf in "Shadow of the Past" Frodo says that Gollum "deserves death" and Gandalf agrees; he goes on to argue that Bilbo was right not to kill Gollum because "he has some part yet to play ere the end" and because the right to end life belongs properly to a higher power. No talk anywhere here of forgiveness or redemption. So while I agree wholeheartedly that the Quest has succeeded thanks to Frodo's actions with Gollum, I think it's pretty clear that Frodo has decided that he doesn't have the right to kill Gollum, even though he may "deserve death" and not because he's forgiven him. That having been said, it's hard to see the drama enacted at the Crack of Doom as being about forgiveness; rather, it's about Pity.
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#50 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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oh contrare.
various definitions of forgiveness the act of excusing a mistake or offense a quality by which one ceases to feel resentment against another for a wrong he or she has committed against oneself. The act of granting pardon for or remission of (something) a virtue, is forgiving, pardon of a fault, remission of a debt. so, therefore, Frodo (and somewhat Sam at the end) forgave Gollum. and therefore as St. Francis of Assisi once said, "for it is in pardoning that we are pardoned." PS it may well have mainly been pity that led to Frodo's forgiveness of Goullum's sins. Last edited by Essex; 10-18-2005 at 10:48 AM. |
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#51 | |
Cryptic Aura
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If I may, I would like to interject some observations about this chapter that don't pertain to this question of Frodo's forgiveness or redemption, but to the chapter overall.
This chapter has always intrigued me because of how it reminds me of the very popular event in medieval English drama called the Harrowing of Hell. The event derives from the descent of Christ into hell (or limbo rather than the inferno of the eternally damned) between his Crucifixion and Resurrection. Christ raised from the dead Adam and Eve and the ancient worthies who died before He brought the gospel to earth. (A handy bit of historical revisionsim, if you want to be post modern.) The term harrowing was first used by Ćlfric the Anglo Saxon grammarian in his homily on the harrowing of hell, but the idea of the harrowing really took on a very rich mythology of triumph over infernos in English medieval drama--the mystery plays especially. Imagery of all kinds were infused into this fecund idea--derived from the biblical word Gehenna, for the garbage dump outside Jerusalem where fires were kept burning and where bodies of executed criminals were dumped. In the Old English traditions which I have read, hell was more often portrayed as a hellmouth of a great beast, but the imagery of the blast furnace was also used. Now, before you think I am running off at the mouth, let me say I am not being allegorical here. I by no means wish to imply that Frodo or Gollem is Christ. Nor do I mean that this act redeems Man of death, although it does free the Third Age of evil. What I much more simply want to suggest is how I think Tolkien was creatively conceiving of images, ideas, possibilities inherent in some of the medieval and Old English literature he read to create his own vivid sense of Sam and Frodo's achievement. To me, this chapter is only tangentially 'about' the successful culmination of the Quest, the destruction of the Ring. It is more specifically about the spiritual journey of Sam and Frodo. So many of the words used in this chapter have religious overtones--and here I quite grant that many won't see this or accept it, as we have many different ways of reading LotR--that pertain to the spirit's culminating triumph over evil. The dark veil, the wheel of fire, the gaping mouth, the carrying of one's 'brother', the specific timing of the tremours of the earth, the palms held together, facing inwards, all imply a particular direction. Sam and Frodo in this chapter throw off--at least metaphorically--all traipsings of their worldly goods and possessions. They stand--again metaphorically-naked before their fate. And while much of our focus has been on Frodo, little so far has examined Sam other than to nod that ,well, yes, Frodo wouldn't have made it if it hadn't been for Sam. Yet the chapter says much about Sam's interiority, far more than it says about Frodo's. The ethical or moral triumph in this chapter belongs to Sam. Yes, he spares himself food and water to give sustenance to Frodo. He conceives of the need to throw off things they will not need to complete their journey. He is the one whose strength--hope--is renewed when he recalls not just The Shire, but Gandalf's sacrifice in Moria. He, as much as Frodo, enters that unusual and strange state of human mind under fasting and famine where vision becomes more possible: Dream and waking mingled uneasily. He saw ... . He dreams of the cool water of The Shire and swimming with Rosie's brothers. He has the strange conversation 'with himself.' He experiences a 'calling.' Quote:
It is not to a dark lake of underground fire that Sam and Frodo climb, but to a mountain top burning with fire and ash. And the Quest is accomplished because not just Frodo but Sam also undergoes purification. The characters work in tandem in this very unique version of the Harrowing of Hell.
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#52 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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On Bethberry's point re the Harrowing of Hell. In the pre-Christian religions we have the descent into the UnderWorld for initiation, to meet with the Ancestors, etc. Its the old womb/tomb thing. The dead are placed in the earth, in the womb of the Mother, to await re-birth, & passing within the earth & emerging was a symbolic rebirth. The early Christians adapted these old ideas, as they did with so many 'Pagan' practices - anyone who thinks that the Christian places of worship found in the Roman catacombs were purely a consequence of persecution & a need for secrecy is missing something. |
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#53 | |
Cryptic Aura
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To be honest, although I know of many, many underworld experiences of purifications and rebirth in mediteranean cultures, I am very foggy on whether these exist and what form they take in Northern--Scandinavian--mythologies. Anything in the Eddas? I don't mean to draw the thread off-topic, but I was wondering if anything is applicable here.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 10-18-2005 at 01:47 PM. |
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#54 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I'm a bit vague on the Eddas at the moment - don't have my books to hand. I know Odin descended into the Underworld to ask Hel (the goddess of the realm) about Balder's dream. Certainly the Underworld theme is present in Beowulf, with the descent into the mere to confront Grendel's mother. We also have the Dragon's cave from which the thief steals the cup which brings about the hero's death. Celtic myth is replete with accounts of hollow hills as the entrance to Fairyland. Newgrange was clearly used for ritual purposes - as were other 'burial mounds' - places for communing with the ancestors (the numerous accounts of heroes like Arthur, Finn MacCool, Merlin & Barbarossa etc being not dead but only sleeping in a cave somewhere).
Of course, caves are only one entrance to the OtherWorld. There are a number of fairytales where the hero/heroine climbes down into a well to another land. This idea of another, magical, world found by passing within this one & where some kind of treasure is to be found, is commonplace. Glastonbury Tor is supposed to contain an entrance to the Underworld, ruled by Gwyn ap Nudd. Frodo, in a sense 'dies' at the Sammath Naur, But whether he is truly 'reborn' is another question - his statement that 'There is no real going back' when he is approaching the Shire seems to imply that if he was reborn there he was reborn as an inhabitant of the Otherworld, & is not able to truly go back to the mundane world. His stay in the Shire is brief & in the end he sets sail for the Otherworld. Kind of reminds me of other traditional heroes who are said to be 'trapped' in Fairyland, or to have gone there to live - Thomas the Rhymer & Robert Kirk among them. Frodo & the other Hobbits have crossed a number of boundaries - rivers principally - to move further & further into the Otherworld of Middle-earth, away from the mundane world of the Shire. Its interesting that all of them pass back into that mythic realm to die - neither Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry or Pippin die in the Shire. All their returns are transitory & in the end they leave the everyday world & return to the world of legend. Waffling, because I can't dig up the examples you asked for... |
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#55 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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Now that Gollum has drifted into this discussion a little bit, I'd like to comment on some things that I touched on in my first post but didn't have time to go into then nor opportunity since. Gollum as a character is often overlooked in this chapter, it seems, in favor of Frodo.
For one thing, Gollum has now figured out for sure and certain just why Frodo and Sam have been trying to get to Mordor. They are going to destroy his Precious, the one thing that gives his life meaning. No wonder Gollum's furious and anxious! All along, Frodo's pity and mercy for Gollum have been there, though now we see some more reasoning for it, through Sam's eyes. Gollum really doesn't have a chance of redemption now. He came so close... and then that bridge, that chance, was broken. Gollum feels no love for his "nice master;" he only wants the Ring. He is now "forlorn, ruinous, and utterly wretched." Gollum's in agony over the Ring; the good in him is now either gone or buried deep. The Ring has enslaved his mind, and he is "unable to find peace or relief ever in life again." If the Ring were to be destroyed without him, he would die. Not an instantaneous thing, probably; he'd just curl up and die - "into the dust." There would be nothing, good or evil, that Gollum would be willing or able to live for. There's no longer any hope for Gollum, and in this, he is utterly pitiable. And it's because of this that Sam is unable to kill Gollum. He understands Gollum a little better now, realizing the toll that the Ring put on its bearer. Along this lack of hope for redemption, Gollum is also now quite mad. He's not thinking logically anymore; all that matters is that he gets his precious back. Gone is the cool calculating - take them to Shelob, go through the left-overs, find the Ring - now it's just "get the Ring." Wildness and madness are both words used to describe Gollum. More than once, Gollum is described as being a shadow. This has two significances that I can see. First, a shadow is dark, a representitive of evil. Also, a shadow is insubstantial and not solid. It's like Gollum is only a shadow of his former self, not all there but a shrunken creature who has been reduced to a part of himself. All this brings to mind the point that has been made (not on this thread, I don't think) that Eru is a murderer if he willed Gollum to slip. However, I would say this is more an act of mercy than anything else. Gollum was utterly wretched, craving the Ring. He couldn't live without it anymore. Gollum is living in agony; death seems to be a relief after this. Not only is death just, but it's merciful; and Gollum probably died the only way he could possibly die happily - not at peace; in his state, the Ring would probably be more of a torment than a pacifier - but in possession of the one thing he cared about. |
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#56 |
Dead Serious
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An interesting thought occurred to me about Eru and Gollum's death...
And no, it has nothing to do with murderers... Remember Gandalf's statement that "many who die deserve life and many who live deserve death" (paraphrasing), and his warning to Frodo not to be judgemental, for "can you give it to them?" Well, the thought occurred to me that Eru CAN give life to those who deserve it, as well as taking life from those who deserve it. Is it fitting, perhaps, that Eru is, if anyone, the One who takes Gollum's life?
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#57 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
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#58 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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But, given the choice, would Gollum have wanted to die? If this was a 'mercy killing' on Eru's part it was done without any consultation with the victim. 'I am the Lord your God, & I've decided you will be better off dead. Trust me - its for your own good.' Sorry - if Eru had created mere robots then He would be free to switch them off whenever He wanted. He didn't - He created sentient beings, who he will hold accountable for their actions. If Elves, Men & Hobbits are His children then He must be as accountable for His treatment of them as any parent would be. You can't say, 'Well, He's their creator, so He can do as He likes with them.' If a parent decided to kill their child because it was 'best' for them, & would serve the greater good, we'd at least wonder about that parent's sanity & certainly question their love. Of course, it may be that Eru found Himself in extremis & had to sacrifice his child, Smeagol, to save all his other children, because there was no other way. But this opens a whole new can of worms - is Eru truly omnipotent? Can He make a rock too heavy for Him to move, etc, etc? If Gollum's death was a fait accompli, Eru, in His omniscience, must have foreseen it from before the beginning. If He could intervene at the Sammath Naur to bring about the Ring's destruction with the death of Gollum as the inevitable consequence, why could He not have intervened at an earlier point & found some other way to destroy the Ring, sparing Gollum's life? Clearly, intervening in His creation is not 'against the Rules'. The final point I want to make is, if Eru was omniscient, & knew of (without necessarily causing) everything that would happen, then He knew all along, even before Smeaqgol was born, that He would cause his death - or at least bring it about. |
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#59 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Gollum was born to die, like all other mortals. If you are going to accuse Eru of being a murderer, then it started waaaaaaaay back at the beginning when he decided that the Atani were going to experience death and leave the world. Eru certainly showed little inclination to remove this rule from individuals. Ergo, he must be a murderer. (Hint time: Eru was not "sacrificing" anything. He knew exactly where Gollum was going...)
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#60 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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So, which moral code is objectively Right? Of course, in our world, this diference does not exist - Jesus tells his disciples to be like their Father in Heaven - ie to obey the same moral & behavioural standards God follows. In Middle-earth it must be different. Eru can do as He likes & whatever He does, even if it is against the laws & rules he lays down for His children, is 'Good' by definition, simply because He does it? Quote:
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#61 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
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Gollum didn't have to do the things he did. He didn't have to kill Deagol, he didn't have to use the Ring for evil purposes, but he did, and those choices all eventually led him to his death at Mt. Doom. He wasn't a puppet that Eru ordained had to do all these things so that he could be killed at Mt. Doom. |
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#62 | |
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How? Either way, someone is responsible for the fact that they die. And it's not as if Eru arbitrarily gave ALL of his creatures mortality. The Elves, as I'm sure everyone's noticed, are quite free of any such constraints. Whether mortality is better or worse than immortality, the fact is that it wasn't distributed evenly.
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#63 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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No two codes, the requirements of the roles are different. Eru is "the Authority" as Tolkien put it. Eru made everything and in a sense everything belongs to him. It is his position to ultimately direct the destiny of the world. It is the position of the created to fulfill their purpose or mar it as their choice leads them. In some respects, it is the resisting and marring of purpose that is Bad. Quote:
However, I think there is some danger here toward viewing "The Moral Code" as being above Eru. I think that would be a mistake. He's the one who made it. In some ways it probably could be regarded as his personality. Quote:
Another point, why aren't you up in arms about the slaughter of the Numenorians? That is explicitly presented by Tolkien as being an act of Eru. He was certainly a murderer then even if at no other time. Besides, I don't think one could say that Eru had been hasty in executing judgment on Gollum. He gave Gollum an excellent chance to repent and aid Frodo in the destruction of the Ring. Gollum made a final rejection of this opportunity to fulfill a good purpose. I'm sure at some point somebody has demanded an answer to the question of, "What took Eru so long to punish Gollum for his murder of Deagol and eating all those poor babies?!! How can Eru be good if he allows this sort of thing to go unpunished for so long?!"
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#64 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, one could argue that killing Smeagol was an act of loving compassion on the behalf of Eru - seeing one of His children in torment & knowing that he could never be free of his desire for the Ring while it existed & also knowing that after its destruction he could only have endured a long painful demise He chose to release him, etc, but that would still make Eru directly responsible for the fact that Smeagol died, against his will, because Eru ended his life. These are difficult theological questions - ones which Jung struggled with, incidentally, in Answer to Job |
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#65 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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![]() I'm going to assume you didn't get a chance to see my previous post, and so will give you the opportunity before returning to topic.
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#66 | |
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#67 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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And for the rest, I still go back to Answer to Job. |
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#68 | |||
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I suspect from this point on we are just going to be running in circles.
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What it sounds like you are saying is that you find it perfectly alright to kill on a huge (indeed total) scale through disease and decay, but object to an intervention to end one particular life. However, the end of both is the same thing. This really almost seems like splitting hairs. I have to ask why you find the built in death to be so preferable? Quote:
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There are any number of things to discuss about Answer to Job, however they have nothing to do with Tolkien so I’ll confine myself one comment on what seems the most relevant issue. I’m afraid I fail to entirely appreciate the relevance of this piece to the topic at hand. Quite frankly, I think you are attempting to inject it in the wrong place. I say this, if for no other reason, than because Job’s suffering was unmerited, where I don’t think anybody would argue with the notion that Gollum was a thoroughly rotten individual and ultimately embraced that choice. This sort of renders a large part of the point of Answer to Job irrelevant to the discussion.
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#69 | |||
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Anyway, I'm sort of wishing I hadn't dragged primary world religion into this & I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 10-20-2005 at 02:14 AM. |
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#70 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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And it is not like the Numenorians had not been warned...repeatedly.
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#71 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
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I just feel the need to interject a bit of common sense at this point:
If Eru is God, or even God-like, or even Tolkien's version of God -- then isn't this whole debate over Gollum's death a bit, well, pointless? I mean, if God's in charge of the world, then everyone's death is part of His Plan, or his 'fault' in some way... It's the same tired question that people have been asking their beleagured priests for centuries, to which they usually get a resigned "mysterious ways" response.... As soon as you decide to start questioning the ethical disposition of Gollum's death (at the 'hands' of Providence, Eru, God, whatever) don't you have to start questioning Denethor's death, Boromir's death, Saruman's death, Lotho's death and on and on and on...
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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#72 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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#73 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#74 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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#75 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Is this an accurate summary of your postion?
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#76 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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With Gollum (& the Numenoreans) it is a case of unnatural (ie supernatural) death, because the cause of their death is brought about from beyond the Circles of the World. It is a Divine intervention which causes them to die, a breaking in of the supernatural into nature. In other words, the deaths of Gollum & the Numenoreans are miracles. I don't think that's something we can didmiss easily. We can be blinded by the Eucatastrophic experience - the world is saved, the heroes don't die as we'd expected, etc - & miss the vitally important detail that the miraculous event, the happy ending, we've just witnessed involved the killing, by Eru himself, of His children. Its too easy to just say 'Well, they brought it on themselves' - they may well have done - but Eru (God within Middle-earth) intervened to kill them. Was there no other form of intervention available? Could He not have shown Himself in all His glory to the Numenoreans & intimidated them into returning to Numenor? Could he not just have caused a chunk of rock to fall from the roof of the Sammath Naur to knock Gollum out so that he dropped the Ring & it rolled into the Fire? Of course neither of those outcomes would have been as dramatic. The point is though, that He could have intervened in such a way that it didn't require them to die at His hands, but He didn't. Any intervention by Eru takes away their freedom of action, so that can't be used as an argument. The other interesting question, imo, is why do we feel that the way Eru did interevene, resulting in the deaths of Gollum & the Numenoreans, is more, what? fulfilling, 'right', convincing???? Why would Gollum being knocked out, or the Numenoreans being intimidated by Eru in His glory & going home & behaving themselves from then on, have felt like a cop out on Tolkien's part? |
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#77 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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As for Gollum - 'knocked out by the rock' does not eliminate the problem of his healing - in case he seized the Ring as Frodo did (see Fordim's post above)- i.e. without actual 'Gollum-will' involved - it is impossible to heal him - no 'Gollum-will' left enough. If it was his conscious choice of 'ring is mine', again - no way to heal him, no 'Gollum-will' left enough
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#78 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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In my view, it is not really the power of Eru that caused Gollum to fall. I see it as more of an accident. But an accident that only happened because of the forgiveness from Frodo (and somewhat Sam) towards Gollum. They received redemption because of this, but why does it need to come from a higher force?
In my opinion, what Tolkien is trying to show us here is that good deeds are sometimes rewarded. (I haven't read Tolkien's Letters yet, so I'm unaware of exactly what his reasons behind these events, if he has said so) |
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#79 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Let's try look at this from Eru's perspective (again). As I said above, "death" is not an ending for him. (Actually it is not an ending for anybody.) The end for mortals is the same. He knows where to find them. In both of these cases Eru acts at the last to defend the creation from the massive havoc and/or domination of rogue, misguided elements that have revolted from him. He has given everybody involved plenty of opportunity to turn from their wicked ways and delivered warnings to that end. Would you prefer that he just stay out of it? Do you not think that Eru has the right (some might say responsibility) to intervene in his own creation? He made it, after all. It would not exist without him. There is ultimately some sort of plan at work for how he wants it to turn out in the end. I don't think that any activities he undertakes like this could be considered as having two moral codes, but rather different roles within one code (remembering that the moral code is part of Eru.)
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#80 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Well, not having proved that Eru is exactly the same as the loving God portrayed by Christianity, we cannot assume that He was acting out of mercy when He caused Gollum's death - He may have acted out of vengeance & consigned him to 'Hell' - same with the Numenoreans. Or simply caused them to cease to exist.
To me this is the central issue. If we just take the statements we have about Eru in the text, do we find a loving merciful Creator or something else entirely? His behaviour & actions must be judged on what we know of Eru Himself, not on what we know/believe about the Christian God. |
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