* * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *

[Maédhros]

Aiwendil I'm in favor of all of your emendations except for this one:
line 5:

{Inland musics subtly magic} [But my heart recalleth sea musics] that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave −}

Can you explain to me why can we not use Squatter emendation of that line:

'Ocean musics subtly magic that those waves alone could weave'

Then we would have:

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads,
'Ocean musics subtly magic that those waves alone could weave'
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

I will check the rest of the poem later.

[Findegil]

Are you sure, Maédhros, that what you have writen was what you had in mind?

The text as it stands in your post makes the transition unbearable. That is at least how I feel about it.

In that sens I found Aiwendils emendation much better. If you want to hold the last two lines together and let them both rever to the scene in Nevrast, you have to make a transtion earlier (in line 4). I would rather try to transit as late as possible, which means in line 6 since there a change of the scene is unavoidable.

What is about this one:

Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −
{It was in}[In] the Land of Willows {that}[I recall] how once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

This does not specify were Ulmo came to Tour, but our readers would know that.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros: As Findegil said, the problem with leaving Squatter's line 5 is that it does not accomplish the needed transition from the present to the flashback. To keep that line 5, the transition would have to somehow be made in or before line 4.

I think that the best places for the transition are line 5 (as in my version) or line 6 (as in Findegil's).

A problem with line 5 is simply that "But my heart recalleth sea musics" (or whatever else we may substitute) is a complete fabrication.

But I am still hesitant to go with line 6. The transition still seems abrupt. Also, it makes the preceding lines completely irrelevant to the substance of the poem. One advantage of using line 5 is that we can make the transition through a comparison by Tuor of the "voices of the reeds" and the sea musics.

Findegil, you seem rather set on line 6. Can you identify other problems with using line 5 that I'm missing?

[Findegil]

Findegil, you seem rather set on line 6. Can you identify other problems with using line 5 that I'm missing?

I am not really set on line 6. But I think it gives the better opportunity than does line 5, since we have to change line 6 anyway. The only additional problem I see is that in the original the first stanza as, we may call it, dealed with Nan-tathren. And only in line 6 it switched ofer to Ulmo. That's what I try to hold.

But I am still hesitant to go with line 6. The transition still seems abrupt. Also, it makes the preceding lines completely irrelevant to the substance of the poem. One advantage of using line 5 is that we can make the transition through a comparison by Tuor of the "voices of the reeds" and the sea musics.

That is really a big adventage for your line 5. The best way would in may view be to accomplish some similar thing in the second half of line 6.
Let's have nother try:

Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave -
[Magic]{It was} in the Land of Willows that[ reminds me] how once {Ylmir}[Ulmo] came at eve.

I'm not sure if I get it better or worth with each try, so i'm happy that you will check them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

But I think it gives the better opportunity than does line 5, since we have to change line 6 anyway. The only additional problem I see is that in the original the first stanza as, we may call it, dealed with Nan-tathren. And only in line 6 it switched ofer to Ulmo. That's what I try to hold.

Those are some good points that I had not thought of before.

You propose:

Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave -
[Magic]{It was} in the Land of Willows that [reminds me how]once {Ylmir}[Ulmo] came at eve.

To be honest, I think that this is not as good rhythmically as your previous suggestion:

Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −
{It was in}[In] the Land of Willows {that}[I recall how] once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

In the latter, the total number of syllables is already on the high side for this form, but they manage to group fairly well into the seven requisite feet. In the new suggestion, however, there are nineteen syllables, which is more than the meter can handle.

Also, I'm wary about the use of "how" here. I'm not sure that the construction "reminds me how" or "I recall how" is suitable for this style; I think it would properly be "I recall that . . ." Perhaps I'm over-analyzing, though.

In principle, I think your idea of retaining the comparison by Tuor but placing it in the second half of line 6 is a sound one. But I honestly cannot see any way of improving the line. Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough.

We should also consider the possibility of dropping the poem. Certainly, we ought to do so if none of the proposed revisions is satisfactory to everyone. But also, there is the question of whether we are justified by our principles in making the kinds of revisions needed.

[Findegil]

Also, I'm wary about the use of "how" here. I'm not sure that the construction "reminds me how" or "I recall how" is suitable for this style; I think it would properly be "I recall that . . ." Perhaps I'm over-analyzing, though.

I can go with that as well, but as you said before the line is maybe not good enough.

I have thought again on line 2 and your argument that, "whatever word we substitute for "was" (aside from the clumsy "am"), we will be inventing some action. I tried to think of the most innocuous action I could invent, and it was sitting. Of course he could have been walking - which throws the whole thing into doubt; are we justified in inventing the detail that he was sitting, or that he was walking, however minor it may be?"
If we don't want invent some action, we have to take an action he is performing anyway. So what is about:

I {was} [sing] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen

But also, there is the question of whether we are justified by our principles in making the kinds of revisions needed.

You have a point here. Since we can fairly well see what kind of changes we need for the revision we can consider this now. All the changes are covered (if they are covered at all) by principal 6 a), b) or e). All these paragraphs state, that the changes have to be "minimal". The question is therewith: can we consider our changes as "minimal"? They are clearly the minimalist changes that led to a useable text. But is that enough? They are hard at the boundary. But for nearly all I would say they are bearable. Only the transition from the present in Nan-tathren to the sea I consider too much in the version were we do it in line 5.

We should also consider the possibility of dropping the poem. Certainly, we ought to do so if none of the proposed revisions is satisfactory to everyone.

Agreed. Even if we find some solution that is to our liking, can our version stand in a direct comparison with the original? The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of the original poem given in the Appendix with some commentary.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
We should also consider the possibility of dropping the poem. Certainly, we ought to do so if none of the proposed revisions is satisfactory to everyone. But also, there is the question of whether we are justified by our principles in making the kinds of revisions needed.

Originally posted by Findegil
Agreed. Even if we find some solution that is to our liking, can our version stand in a direct comparison with the original? The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of the original poem given in the Appendix with some commentary.

Alas, it appears that if we were to agree to an emendation of the poem it would appear that we have taken to many liberties in it. As much as I would like to keep the Horns of Ylmir in our main narrative, it seems that at least for now, it must be dropped from it.

[Aiwendil]

I suppose we are agreed on dropping The Horns of Ulmo - for the present, at least. I do think it's unfortunate to lose the poem. Out of the possibilities raised so far, to be honest, I like my proposal for a line 5 transition best. So, in my opinion, if that is too liberal a change, then the poem is unusable.

If we are indeed agreed on this point, then our first draft of The Fall of Gondolin is done. We need only await Antoine's/Maedhros's text.

[Maédhros]

This post is just to illustrate some typos that are in our current draft of the Fall of Gondolin:
Page 2:

"in the great hill of slain that the have raised" should be
"in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised"

"Haudhen-Ndengin" should be "Haudh-en-Ndengin"

"such as still remained. Elves or Men" The period should be replaced with a comma.

"and be drove away" should be "and he drove away"

Page 3:

"and at the least be was not starved" should be "and at the least he was not starved"

"Then he took up harp" should be "Then he took up the harp"

Page 4:

"withersoever yon turn" should be "whithersoever you turn"

Page 6:

"as be drew near" should be "as he drew near"

Page 7:

"between and thy goal" should be "between thee and thy goal"

"What is then my goal. Lord?" The period should be replaced with a comma.

"which long ago decreed" should be "Which long ago I decreed"

Page 10:

"and join with thy forays" should be "and join with the forays"

"But I tamed on the way" should be "But I tarried on the way"

Page 11:

"on to strike us the more cruelly" should be "only to strike us the more cruelly"

Page 12:

"aimed, clad in black" should be "armed, clad in black"

"with a long sword drawn and they wondered" should be "with a long sword drawn; and they wondered" (insert semicolon)

"and Voronwë tamed somewhat north" should be "and Voronwë turned somewhat north"

"How far is no to go?" should be "How far is it now to go?"

"like cowed dog" should be "like a cowed dog"

Page 13:

"'Death is all about us,' and Tuor" should be "'Death is all about us,' said Tuor"

Page 14:

"wit out more doubt" should be "without more doubt"

Page 16:

"many slow minute passed" should be "many slow minutes passed"

"marvelled to see to beauty" should be "marvelled to see its beauty"

Page 17:

"to a stranger it may seen" should be "to a stranger it may seem"

We should also correct the junger for younger in page 27 and geart to great in page 34.

Thanks Artanis.

[lindil]

I must say, I think Aiwendil;s revision oand present tensing of the Horns of Ulmo is excellent and should stay if at all possible.

The only thing I would change is:
{Inland musics subtly magic} [But my heart recalleth sea musics] that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave −}

-->
{Inland musics subtly magic} [Sea musics subtle magic ] that ....

It preserves some rather weak poetry but does takes the worst edge off it.

Of course I am dipping into this with only having read the last 10 or so posts.

So feel free to disregard this thread is I have missed something blatantly obvious to everyone else...

A+ for continuing effort my friends!