Gandalf's Staff

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples.

That's my take on those two points of this truly fascinating discussion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

Agreed. The staffs have great symbolic meaning. If Gandalf were to 'have them,' then I would take that as meaning he 'owned' or was more powerful than the Four.

And so to have a broken staff would mean what?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I thought I would call attention to an interesting tidbit I ran across in the CbC forum which has relevance here:

Which brings me to Gandalf’s staff. The fact that he (far more subtly than Aragorn) insists on retaining it [during the scene before Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf enter Theoden's hall and are asked to give up weapons] lends some credence to the theory that the Staves of the Istari were more than symbolic. I wonder whether he would have been able to achieve what he does once within the Hall without it? The suggestion is that it at least enhances his power to dispel Wormtongue’s webs of deceit.

- Wisdom courtesy of Saucy on this thread. Clarification in [brackets] is mine.

I thought it was far too relevant a fact not to be added to this discussion, but unfortunately, I can't take credit for noticing it myself.

Sophia

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have had my say regarding staves in general, and I'm sticking to it.

And, in regards to this:

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples. (Elladan and Elrohir)

But wouldn't leaving the Fellowship without his guidance constitute a shirking of his responsibility? Sure, everything turned out well during the time Aragorn led the fellowship, but what if Gandalf hadn't met them in Fangorn, because Gandalf hadn't been allowed to return?

Here's my view: Everything Gandalf did on that Bridge was just to scare ol' Roggie off. He could fight with it, yes, but he would lose time that he didn't have. But when the Balrog insisted on crossing the Bridge, he had to make sure it didn't reach the other end; ergo, the Bridge-breaking.

I think the Balrog's whip getting him was just pure coincidence. Although a good coincidence at that.

[Kuruharan]

Everything Gandalf did on that Bridge was just to scare ol' Roggie off. He could fight with it, yes, but he would lose time that he didn't have. But when the Balrog insisted on crossing the Bridge, he had to make sure it didn't reach the other end; ergo, the Bridge-breaking.

I'm not so sure that Gandalf expected to scare the Balrog off. The Balrog may have been mighty curious about this odd critter in front of him, a being which he knew to be Ainu (which the Balrog would probably have found odd enough) but not "dressed" as one. Uncertainty, but not necessarily fear, could possibly have been his dominant feeling.

I think Gandalf planned to break the bridge from the beginning. What better way to cut off pursuit?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This Balrog ran away from Eönwë's buddies. It knows fear.

Maybe not from Gandy, but there's a chance . . .

[Kuruharan]

I did not say it did not know fear. I said it was not necessarily afraid at that moment.

Eönwë had a lot more guys with him too.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But if Gandalf meant to break the Bridge all along, why the speech?

He was hoping to scare it off. Breaking the Bridge would take a lot from him.

[Kuruharan]

But if Gandalf meant to break the Bridge all along, why the speech?

There are a few possibilities.

Such encounters may require the participants abide by the Marquis of Oiolossë Rules, which stipulate that formal introductions must precede the commencement of hostilities. The Balrog's failure to abide by these injunctions may have been part of the reason for his defeat.

On a more serious note (if looked at from a certain perspective) Gandalf may have been stalling for time to gather energy for his blast (note all of his huffing and puffing about immediately prior to the incident).

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not so sure that Gandalf expected to scare the Balrog off. The Balrog may have been mighty curious about this odd critter in front of him, a being which he knew to be Ainu (which the Balrog would probably have found odd enough) but not "dressed" as one. Uncertainty, but not necessarily fear, could possibly have been his dominant feeling.

We also have to keep in mind that the two had already had a confrontation at the Chamber. (where they battled each other by the door using their 'Spells' and 'Words of Command'). So the Balrog should have been at least a little WARY of Gandalf at this point. I believe this is why Gandalf first tried to at least drag the Balrog to a stalemate on the bridge, instead of fighting him straight off.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I believe this is why Gandalf first tried to at least drag the Balrog to a stalemate on the bridge, instead of fighting him straight off.

I think that Gandalf thought that there was a chance that the Balrog (or whatever it was that he perceived behind the Chamber door) may be buried/hampered by the destruction of the door etc. The Bridge, being the way out (though there must have been other exits as the Orcs get out later that night), would be a good idea if it weren't held against the Nine Walkers as a few (or just Gandalf) could hold it while the others got out into the daylight. And if Gandalf could break the Bridge irregardless of Balrog appearance, the Orc pursuit would be slowed.

The Balrog complicated matters somewhat, but the same plan could work if Gandalf broke the Bridge, because wings or no, it seemed to me that the Balrog wasn't jumping the chasm. It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

[Kuruharan]

It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

The Ring perhaps?

As a Maia, could he have sensed its presence? Assuming that he was independent of Sauron, the lure would have been great for him. A Balrog could go a long way with the One Ring. And if he was under Sauron's command, then he would almost certainly have been after it.

[Kuruharan]

That sound you hear is the opening of a can o' worms...

While this issue may be deserving of its own thread (I'm not aware of a current one), in brief I will say I don't believe the Balrog would have left the nice, safe, dark underground because of the lure of the Ring. He could not have known of the existence of the Ring and so likely would not have understood its pull even if he felt it. He certainly does not strike me as the type to exert himself chasing after unnecessary trouble.

The Ring itself would probably not want to advertise itself too loudly because its master was Sauron and not the Balrog and it would not welcome that situation. In other words, perhaps at that moment it was purposefully not exerting a pull.

Unless you would want to suggest that the Watcher in the Water was the Balrog making an early snatch.

(Did I say in brief?)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Gandalf may have been stalling for time to gather energy for his blast (note all of his huffing and puffing about immediately prior to the incident). (Kuru)

Here we can reach a sort of compromise. Perhaps Gandalf was attempting to scare the Balrog off while preparing for a blast, should it come (which it did).

Re worms:

First of all, I don't think the Balrog was under any command. Like the dragons. Sauron can attempt to ally with it, but not command it.

The Balrog could be after the Ring. It doesn't have to understand its pull to be drawn by it (like, as Kuru said, the Watcher did). Although the puzzle that is Gandalf would be a better reason. Who is this being mighty in magic that dares to come in my abode? the Balrog might be thinking ever since their powers met at the Chamber door.

As for the Balrog and sunlight, well . . .

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that Gandalf hoped that it were daylight when they exited the East-Gate as this would deter Orc pursuit, but I don't think that daylight would have stopped the Balrog at all. Something more was needed to inhibit pursuit, such as breaking the Bridge.

And I think that it would have left Moria just to continue the battle with Gandalf. I know that it didn't appear after the battle of the burned Dwarves (sorry, can't remeber the name), but those were Dwarves and it was a bit before Sauron arose again in power. It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in some fashion.

And it's always been my assumption that the Balrog was in some part responsible for what happened on top of Caradhras.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in come fashion. (alatar)

Let us not forget that the Balrog and Sauron both were servants of Melkor. There is no point whatsoever to believe that they are now allies or something. They fell under the dominion of Melkor because he was more powerful, being a Vala and them being Maiar. The difference in power between Melkor and Sauron (or the Balrog) was way bigger then the difference of power between Sauron and the Balrog. Gandalf says, when in Moria, that he has met his equal in the Balrog. And Gandalf is only little less than Sauron.
The fact they both served under Melkor and both were high in his esteem seems to make them pretty equal. Now that Melkor is in the Void, I don't believe any Balrog would be in league with Sauron or be helping him altogether. (lathspell)

No, the Balrog and Sauron weren't on the 'same team' because that would mean the Balrog was on Sauron's team, and no way would an elfbane like that kneel to a peer. Personally, I think the orcs referring to the Balrog with cries of 'Ghash' were not all that unalike to referencing Saruman as Sharkey or referring to anything back home as 'Lugburz' wanting a prize. Those orcs may have been sent to Moria by Sauron a few centuries before to investigate and inhabit the place, but it was clear that Durin's Bane was in charge, and they kept clear of him. However, if he felt the need to use them to send message back and forth to Dol Goldur, there's no evidence of it happening. While Sauron maybe of all people knew the shadow of Moria was the Balrog, the Balrog seemingly, knowing full well Sauron was a higher up, didn't care to leave Moria for any reason. It was . . . "His realm" and any orc there was there by his leave. I wonder if he had declared himself Lord of Moria . . .

So anyway, regardless of being aware of eachother I don't think there was a lot of talk between the Balrog and Sauron. After all, the Balrog would probably take Sauron for a traitor after going AWOL when Huan ripped his throat out and leaving Morgoth without his most devious schemer during the War of Wrath. If anything, Durin's Bane probably didn't really like Sauron that much anyway, thinking him nervy to take the title of 'Dark Lord'. (Keep')

(Both quotes from Wielding the Flame of Anor by Keep')

[Kuruharan]

(There is just something about Balrogs. Whenever they are mentioned in a thread they seem to inevitably come to dominate it.)

First of all, I don't think the Balrog was under any command. Like the dragons. Sauron can attempt to ally with it, but not command it.

I didn't mean to imply that.

My point was that Gandalf hoped that it were daylight when they exited the East-Gate as this would deter Orc pursuit

I certainly agree with you there.

And I think that it would have left Moria just to continue the battle with Gandalf.

Why? What's the point of doing that?

It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him.

Well, there was some sort of understanding there. I don't know if I'd put it any farther than that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why? What's the point of doing that?

I have no evidence to back this up, but in my opinion the Balrog was 'called in' as it wasn't just some nine teenagers who got lost in the Mines. These were the Nine Walkers, and as Sauron (via Saruman?) knew the name and kind of each, he may have realized that it might take more than orcs and trolls to effectively attack the same. So we get the Balrog.

Or the Balrog, as Lord of Moria, is torqued off at people trampling through his kingdom without paying the poll tax, and so we get the Balrog.

Either way, what exactly is it about being outside the gates of Moria that would stop the Balrog's pursuit? We have already ruled out the environment. Could Gandalf et al stand outside the East-Gate and thumb their noses at the Balrog? Would it be merely content to drive them out? In my first example, if it was called in/alerted by Sauron, then it might realize that there may be some personal gain in destroying the Nine. If it were upset over the trespassing, might it not again attempt to extract a pound of flesh?

And just how *do* you explain to your orc and troll groupies that nine good guys, including a dwarf and some midgets, just got away because they were 'one foot over the line?'

Well, there was some sort of understanding there. I don't know if I'd put it any farther than that.

Agreed.

[Kuruharan]

but in my opinion the Balrog was 'called in'

I assume you mean called in by Sauron?

I seriously doubt that. First of all, I don't believe that Sauron and the Balrog were in that kind of communication (let's just get that out of the way).

However, assuming they were, how would Sauron communicate with the Balrog that quickly?

Would it be merely content to drive them out?

In my view, yes.

The Balrog was there to hide, not anything else.

And just how *do* you explain to your orc and troll groupies that nine good guys, including a dwarf and some midgets, just got away because they were 'one foot over the line?'

You eat them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The Balrog was there to hide, not anything else.

That's a Balrog with very limited ambition.

It is possible that he was simply woken up from his ugly sleep with a sore head and a bad attitude and just wanted to work out some of his aggression before returning to catch another forty million winks. But it is equally, if not more, possible that, once roused, a powerful being like him would have plans. And, if he did, those plans would surely extend beyond the realm of Moria.

Never mind whether he had wings or not. The real question is whether he had hopes and dreams. What was his motivation? Why did he feel the need to pursue the Fellowship (to the Bridge at least). Why not just ignore this irksome intrusion and get back to his slumber? He must have sensed that there was an equal or greater power present when Gandalf brought the door down on him. Why risk a confrontation with such a being when (unlike the Dwarves that he had "dealt with" previously) the Fellowship was on its way out anyway, unless he had a particular reason for catching or preventing them? Perhaps it was just "evil instinct". Perhaps he was just following his prime directive to eliminate the good guys. But I suspect that there was more to it than that.

I would still not rule out the lure of the Ring. It is possible that he would sense the presence of Sauron's evil will in the Ring, whether the Ring willed it or not. But why should the Ring not profit from finding its ways into a Balrog's hands (claws, talons, whatever)? Assuming that the Balrog did have some ambition, it could promise him many things - perhaps even dominion over Middle-earth. And it surely would not have been beyond the power of the Ring to trick him at an opportune moment, when it was in a position more easily to find its way back into his Master's hands.

There are a number of examples of evil beings making straight for Frodo during the initial stages of the Fellowship's journey. The Watcher is one. The Orc Captain in the Chamber of Mazarbul is another. So, one way or another, it seems that evil things are drawn to the Ring, just as the Orcs who attacked Isildur at the Gladden Fields were (see footnote 20 to Disaster of The Gladden Fields). In that case, the Ring is portrayed as calling to them, even though they did not know of its presence. Admittedly, Orcs would be easier to manipulate than a Balrog with a sore head but, as I said, I don't think that it would have been beyond the wit of the Ring to find its way back to its Master via the Balrog.

[Kuruharan]

Why not just ignore this irksome intrusion and get back to his slumber?...Fellowship was on its way out anyway

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through? Besides, he'd just had a rock dropped on his head. He might have taken that as a token of hostile intent.

But why should the Ring not profit from finding its ways into a Balrog's hands (claws, talons, whatever)?

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

evil things are drawn to the Ring

This is true. If it weren't for the Watcher, I'd say it was more due to Sauron's particular hold over his slaves.

I don't think that it would have been beyond the wit of the Ring to find its way back to its Master via the Balrog.

Well, I am obviously of the opinion that this path was one that presented tremendous obstacles to the Ring achieving its goal.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We seem to have lost hold of Gandalf's staff...

Indeed. But threads often take twists and turns like this and, as you said, there's nothing like a Balrog debate to turn up the heat.

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through?

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

A valid point. But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom (literally). I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve. Inveigling itself into the Balrog's possesion would undoubtedly have been a risky move, but then its other options were pretty risky too. And just as Sauron was over-confident, perhaps the Ring was too. Perhaps it thought it had a good shot at mastering the Balrog. Then again, perhaps it did.

[HerenIstarion]

twists and turns, eh?

Legally, Balrog was in the right - the Fellowship committed what any lawyer would have labeled 'breaking and trespassing'. Legal defence may have pointed out that Balrog was a squatter, occupying dwarven halls legal owners never put their claims down to, but, on the other hand, as the prosecution may have retorted, dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Accussed returned guilty, your honour!

So, it is just as well M-E haven't got lawyers

[The Saucepan Man]

Legally, Balrog was in the right ...

True enough, although he was entitled only to use reasonable force to defend his property, under English law at least.

I think that the shadow and flame, not to mention the flaming sword and whip, may have been a little over the top.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

At the time they were running at break-neck speed for the exit he was hot on their tail (literally). He would have expected such behavior. When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step. You must take into account that Frodo himself failed in the end.

I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve...but then its other options were pretty risky too.

(Lets see if we can't drag Boromir88 into the thread.)

Nah. As far as the Ring was concerned Boromir was a chump. He would have been putty in the Ring's (metaphorical) hands.

dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Tut, tut councilor. That was not the Balrog's original habitat. The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property (dwarven jurisprudence always draws property lines in a 360 degree circle in all directions around the center ).

Unless the Dwarves could tunnel into the Timeless Halls in search of mithril, they could not reach the Balrog's original habitat.

[alatar]

To bring the thread back to theme, I just want to note that Gandalf had to break his staff in order to counter the Balrog's 'preserve bridge' spell. Now that I've satisfied the legal requirement of staying on topic, here we go right back off.

In regards to my comment about the Balrog being 'called in,' a better explanation would be that it's noted somewhere in the books (is Gandalf telling this to Frodo?) that Sauron put out the call to all evil things and that's how Gollum (being even more susceptible) ends up in Mordor. I would then assume that the Balrog, being evil, at least got some kind of message, greeting card, etc, and so it knew that Sauron was back in business and was hiring. It would be complete speculation whether the Balrog submitted a resume or not ("...it says here that you worked for Morgoth before the First Age through the War of Wrath, are currently unemployed, good with a whip, know Words of Command..."). Also note that the Balrog's lack of verifiable employment kept him from obtaining a mortgage for Moria, which it had intended to buy and turn into a theme park.

Somewhere else it's noted that if Smaug were still alive that Sauron would have used him in his multi-pronged attack/war. Luckily Gandalf met a Dwarf by the side of the road or something, and so put the kabosh on that. But it must be noted that Smaug would have been controlled by, or at least a willing partner in Sauron's plan. And Smaug just seems much smarter that the Balrog - is there even 'one' Balrog quote in all of Tolkien's works ("If I really had wings I'd fly up there and smite thee, Thorondor.")? And Dol Guldur is much closer to Moria than it is to Erebor, meaning cheaper postal rates.

Now to add 2+2 to get 22. Smaug and the Balrog are both 'fire' creatures. Both are evil, have seen (and/or smelled) a Baggins, prefer to take very long naps underground in former Dwarven abodes (especially after having had less than amicable encounters with the same) in which mithril is present in some form, meet their demise through some action of the Grey Pilgrim, have wings...er, um, anyway...

With this many identical characteristics, I would then argue that if Smaug were to be a 'Friend of Sauron,' then surely the Balrog was. Saruman, who we all agree does not have wings, was a FoS, and the closest that he came to being a fire creature was in the use of pipeweed.

I rest my case before it becomes too ridiculous...too late.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

Given their weak-kneed reaction (Ai! Ai! It's a Balrog. Mummy, I'm scared) when he did appear, he could probably rest assured knowing that any ideas that they might (hypothetically) have had would go straight out of the window with his arrival, and that they would just keep on running. So why bother carrying on the chase? Perhaps he wanted to hold the door open for them.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step.

None of its options (with the exception of that clod, Boromir) were much, if at all, better than taking its chances with the Balrog. Fearsome though he was, he was defeated by a Maiar in man's clothing. And Balrogs in the first Age were defeated by Elves. Exemplary specimens of their race though they were, they were no Maiar. I doubt that he would hold too much fear for Sauron (of whom Gandalf was only the equal at full power), even with the Ring.

The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property ...

Whoever gave the Dwarves the right of occupation? I don't recall mention of any Title Deeds ...

And who said that Dwarvish law is applicable? Balrogian legislation provides that possession is 100% of the law.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Alatar, so what you are saying is that Sauron was forming his very own Legion of Doom to counter the Fellowship's JLA.

So Sauron=Lex Luthor
Balrog = Bizarro
Smaug would have been Riddler?
Saruman as Scarecrow
A corrupted Radagast as Cheetah
May he even could have pulled out a corrupted Alatar and Pallando to form some twisted WonderTwins knock-off ("Twin Wizards Powers Activate! Form of some Crappy wizards!!!")

See now you don't seem so ridiculous

[Kuruharan]

the Balrog, being evil, at least got some kind of message, greeting card

Well, he allowed the orcs to stay for 539 years without eating...all of them.

However, it is very curious that he did not seem to take part in the destruction of Balin's colony, or at least he is not mentioned.

Probably all the thrashing about woke him up and he could not quite drift back to sleep (having rocks plopped on your head might have that effect). That might explain why he took such a personal hand in trying to rid himself of the Fellowship. He wanted some peace and quiet. It seems to take Balrogs a long time to settle down and fall asleep (about 20 years or so, you have to get the rocks underneath you just right).

Note how the orcs fell perfectly silent when the Balrog entered. He had made it painfully evident to them what he wanted.

So why bother carrying on the chase?

To make sure they actually went, of course.

I doubt that he would hold too much fear for Sauron (of whom Gandalf was only the equal at full power), even with the Ring.

Yes, but if Gandalf could master the Ring in man's clothing, surely the Balrog could master the Ring in...balrog's clothing.

(Here they come, I can see them now. Someone's going to mention them. The Twin Terrors of Balrog wings and Balrog size. It was inevitable.)

Whoever gave the Dwarves the right of occupation?

Mahal, who made the mountains before the Dawn of Time. As clear a claim of ownership as I've ever seen.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Mahal, who made the mountains before the Dawn of Time. As clear a claim of ownership as I've ever seen.

I must have missed the bit where he served eviction notices on Smaug, Shelob, the eponymous Balrog and assorted Orcish colonies.

Or ... are you saying that the Dwarves were Aule's eviction notices?

[Essex]

another twist, I know, but seeing as I resurrected this thread I'm gonna give it a go.

Kuruharan

You must take into account that Frodo himself failed in the end.

I always get angry when someone says this. I know there are countless threads on this, but I can't let it stand.

Q1. What was the Quest?
A1. To defeat Sauron by destroying the Ring.

Q2. Was the Ring destroyed?
A2. Yes

Q3. Was the Quest a success?
A3. Yes

Q4. Did Frodo, by his compassion for keeping Gollum alive, receive Redemption?
A4. Yes

Q5. Does it matter that Frodo did not actually throw the Ring in the Lava?
A5. No

Q6. Did Frodo Fail in the Quest to destroy the Ring
A6. No.


...


Sound of second can of worms opening on this thread.

[alatar]

Essex, is there another thread in which you post what you think/feel in regards to Frodo 'failing?' If not, how do you reconcile his actions at the Crack (claiming and not actively destroying the Ring) and not having 'failed?'

Note that I don't have a pony in this race, but just thought to ask.

[Kuruharan]

Alright!! Rock on me!!! This has got to be some sort of new record. Not only have I managed to get the thread off the original subject, it has now wandered off the second subject, past the third, and has now discovered a fourth!

Gold star for me!

are you saying that the Dwarves were Aule's eviction notices

"Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!" is usually translated as "Axes of Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!" However, more intensive research reveals that it in fact means "Notices of the Dwarves! Get off of our property!"

Note that soon after Gimli made this pronouncement at the Hornburg he moved into the place.

Essex, I echo alatar's sentiments.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm not commenting on an Ú-JLA, snorri.

Seriously: the Dragon, yes, would have allied with Sauron. But the Balrog most probably wouldn't. It's more loyal to Morgoth, and Sauron abandoned Morgoth after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

He's probably napping so when he comes to serve Sauron his dishonourable discharge, he'll be ready for anything, like Sauron's patented avoid-the-mailman manoeuvre.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Seriously: the Dragon, yes, would have allied with Sauron. But the Balrog most probably wouldn't. It's more loyal to Morgoth, and Sauron abandoned Morgoth after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

But Sauron's was the only gig in town, and he was able to turn Numenoreans, Maia etc to the dark side, so why not some sweet words for the Balrog ("I'll make those darned wings really work. Here, put this ring on...")

And if Sauron were to recover the One, would he then be able to control the Balrog? If so, wouldn't it have been better for the Balrog to be on the bandwagon a bit sooner, like Saruman?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The Balrog knows where his loyalties lie. And it's not in that upstart Gorthaur.

And if Sauron were to recover the One, would he then be able to control the Balrog? If so, wouldn't it have been better for the Balrog to be on the bandwagon a bit sooner, like Saruman? (alatar)

Curumo was a different case; he was "confused" by his incarnation. The Balrog was in his proper senses, and is almost equal to Gorthaur.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

The Balrog knows where his loyalties lie. And it's not in that upstart Gorthaur.

Curumo was a different case; he was "confused" by his incarnation. The Balrog was in his proper senses, and is almost equal to Gorthaur.

So, to bring this all back around, the reason that the Balrog chased Gandalf to the Bridge is that he wanted to commit suicide. The writing was on the wall - either to listen to Wolfboy the Cruel crow about how he 'won' for eternity or to enter the Fourth age as the last Maia standing in ME - heck, even the Firstborn were leaving the place as it was getting to be so tame.

I would disagree regarding Gorthaur being an upstart as I thought he ran the show while Melkor lie in chains. This should have had some impression on the Balrog - the Boss picked him only to 'go fetch those Elfs' or 'cover my retreat,' never to run the store.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I would disagree regarding Gorthaur being an upstart as I thought he ran the show while Melkor lie in chains. This should have had some impression on the Balrog - the Boss picked him only to 'go fetch those Elfs' or 'cover my retreat,' never to run the store. (alatar)

He was Morgoth's duly appointed lieutenant then. But not during the Second or Third Age.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

He was Morgoth's duly appointed lieutenant then. But not during the Second or Third Age.

Agreed, but in ME, who has a better resume/bona fides?