'Its about death, the inevitability of death' - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 03-20-2003, 03:13 AM

its ocurred to me that in my last post, when I said Tolkien 'Christainised' the Elves it may have come across in a way I didn't mean. After being so 'negative' about the Elves (calling them 'virtually fascist) it may have been taken to imply I was saying the same thing about Christians. I'll try & clarify.
What I meant was, Tolkien has given the Elves a moral conscience & an individual soul, which can be saved or lost. He's given the 'pagan/mythological' Elves the possibility of salvation. He also 'Christianises' Odin into Manwe. Odin, in the Norse myths sits each day on his high seat, sending out his two ravens, Hugin & Munin (Thought & Memory) to fly out over the Nine Worlds, returning to him each evening with news of all that has occurred. Odin becomes Manwe, the Ravens become the Eagles of Manwe. This was an approach which was fairly common in the early church. There's a letter quoted by the Anglo Saxon writer Bede, from the Pope to the first Archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. Augustine complains that the people are impossible to convert, as they insist on going to the old Pagan sites, on the old Pagan festival days. The Pope replies that Augustine should turn the Pagan temples into churches, the Pagan festivals into Christian Saint's days, so that when the people went to the old sites, they would be attending church, when they celebrated, they would be celebrating the Christain saints. (Some of us might think that was a bit of a sneaky way to convert people!). But I think that's what Tolkien was doing with the myths he loved, Christianising them.
Anyway, that's what I meant. Sorry if anyone took it the wrong way.

03-20-2003, 03:13 AM	#41
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	its ocurred to me that in my last post, when I said Tolkien 'Christainised' the Elves it may have come across in a way I didn't mean. After being so 'negative' about the Elves (calling them 'virtually fascist) it may have been taken to imply I was saying the same thing about Christians. I'll try & clarify. What I meant was, Tolkien has given the Elves a moral conscience & an individual soul, which can be saved or lost. He's given the 'pagan/mythological' Elves the possibility of salvation. He also 'Christianises' Odin into Manwe. Odin, in the Norse myths sits each day on his high seat, sending out his two ravens, Hugin & Munin (Thought & Memory) to fly out over the Nine Worlds, returning to him each evening with news of all that has occurred. Odin becomes Manwe, the Ravens become the Eagles of Manwe. This was an approach which was fairly common in the early church. There's a letter quoted by the Anglo Saxon writer Bede, from the Pope to the first Archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. Augustine complains that the people are impossible to convert, as they insist on going to the old Pagan sites, on the old Pagan festival days. The Pope replies that Augustine should turn the Pagan temples into churches, the Pagan festivals into Christian Saint's days, so that when the people went to the old sites, they would be attending church, when they celebrated, they would be celebrating the Christain saints. (Some of us might think that was a bit of a sneaky way to convert people!). But I think that's what Tolkien was doing with the myths he loved, Christianising them. Anyway, that's what I meant. Sorry if anyone took it the wrong way. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."