Tol-in-Gaurhoth CIX - The TEN YEAR ANNIVERSARY EXTRAVAGANZA!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I may return to cause psychological/moral/meta angst.

I'd need to read up a bit, though.

[Kuruharan]

Nilp!!!

So glad to see you! I hope you do decide to join. It should be right up your street...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I noticed that the old Halls of Mandos threads goes 20 pages for the main one and 12 for the dead one...

Never mind the reading up, just sign me up.

I'll do my best to get lynched on DAY 1, as usual--even though that won't shut me up for long.

[Thinlómien]

Nilp, Lalaith, morm... this is actually happening, isn't it? I'm not dreaming??

*group hug and happy dance*

(now that I'm still glad you guys are playing and not getting headache from Nilp's antiques, paranoid about Lalaith seeming so nice and reasonable, or having an inner debate whether morm is actually suspicious or it's just a habit of mine to suspect him )

[Macalaure]

One last question:

Is it a wolf win if
-the total number of wolves equals the number of villagers
-the number of wolves of one team equals the number of villagers
-the number of wolves of one team equals the number of villagers + number of wolves on the other team.

Am I making this too complicated?

[Rikae]

I'm really looking forward to seeing this concept developed and experiencing it from the perspective of a player, Kuruharan! After the first game, I was hoping someone would eventually revisit it and work out the kinks. (Unfortunately I can't quite remember what those were, other than that there needed to be a bit more knowledge available to the dead).

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Oh, Kuru, I still remember when Oddwen mercilessly ripped you apart to win Tol-in-Gaurhoth III. Good times.

I love the premise; missed it the first time round. One question: you say the active players aren't allowed to look in the Dead Thread (or Deid Threid, as we Scots might say). Is that simply a matter of trust, or is there some (obvious) thing I'm missing which prevents dastardly wolverous treachery? Ah! Such villainous lycanthropy! I can't take it anymore: STRING THEM UP!

++NILPAURION FELAGUND

I look at it this way: if we trust those players who live together not to discuss the game (more difficult than it sounds!) surely we can trust players not to read a forbidden thread as well.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

One last question:

Is it a wolf win if
-the total number of wolves equals the number of villagers
-the number of wolves of one team equals the number of villagers
-the number of wolves of one team equals the number of villagers + number of wolves on the other team.

Am I making this too complicated?

Hmm...my original plan was total number of wolves equals the number of villagers. I hadn't even considered making the victory condition be the number of wolves on one team equaling the number of villagers. That would definitely ease the problem I've been wrestling with in the concept that in all my little simulations of the game it is pretty short, which makes it hard on the village. It would also greatly reduce (although not eliminate) the possibility of a tie, which I think is optimal.

I must ponder this, but I may well make this change. Anybody else's input on this decision is welcome.

other than that there needed to be a bit more knowledge available to the dead

I fear I am adding more kinks rather than working them out.

From my perspective, I think with NIGHTly role reveals and (trusted) Seer dreams the dead will have enough information to be going on with. I was concerned that the dead might end up with too much information which is why the Seer can only dream once a NIGHT in the Dead Thread as opposed to the Living Thread when the Seer can dream twice. I thought that was one of the benefits of a quicker game was it kept the pressure up on the dead to use interactions and deductions rather than just relying on reveals because there wouldn't be enough time.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Knock, knock.

Boro and Sally mentioned I should look in.



Edit: This is a signup, if that wasn't clear.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I look at it this way: if we trust those players who live together not to discuss the game (more difficult than it sounds!) surely we can trust players not to read a forbidden thread as well.

That's true. And this community can certainly trust each other to play the game in the right spirit. There is a psychological difference, though, because if you discuss the game when you're not supposed to then you know that someone else knows about your reprehensible act - even though they are themselves also guilty. This way, however, the crime would remain a total secret.

Did you guys play a game together since? We never did. One of us (not saying which) would have been totally unable to keep secrets like werewolf roles.

[Mithalwen]

While I think everyone acted honourably last time I wonder if the Social Group facility would work to ensure the secrecy of the tomb... not sure exactly how it works but someone more techy than me might

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While I think everyone acted honourably last time I wonder if the Social Group facility would work to ensure the secrecy of the tomb... not sure exactly how it works but someone more techy than me might

Hmmm...that is definitely an interesting idea that should be investigated, it might have a variety of useful applications.

However, for this game I think I'm going to give it a miss. I'm not sure how accessible the information would be for after the game and I want people to be able to read both threads after the game is over.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

That's true. And this community can certainly trust each other to play the game in the right spirit. There is a psychological difference, though, because if you discuss the game when you're not supposed to then you know that someone else knows about your reprehensible act - even though they are themselves also guilty. This way, however, the crime would remain a total secret.

Did you guys play a game together since? We never did. One of us (not saying which) would have been totally unable to keep secrets like werewolf roles.

We've played a couple more games together, and these days we're strict about not discussing games at all, but it's still a challenge to keep everything secret from someone who's sitting right across the room.

[Kuruharan]

After pondering it over, I have decided to adopt Mac's suggestion of having a Baddie victory being defined by size of the victorious pack rather than as both packs together.

The rules have been updated to reflect this.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm already near the end of DAY 3 for the old Mandos game.

Wow, that was crazy.

EDIT: Also, I've been used as a verb about two years after my last game. I feel so proud.

[Kuruharan]

A friendly reminder that sign-ups are still open so there is still time to find people to play.

I will be closing sign-ups a week from today as I will need a little time to do role selection and notification. NIGHT 1 will begin 10 PM US Eastern on May 31. There will be no NIGHT kills that NIGHT, just Seer dreams and Wolf plotting. DAY 1, with all its attendant fun, will begin 10 PM US Eastern on June 1.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay okay, sign me in, please I wasn't sure about time, but I guess I should be okay when this starts...

[Kuruharan]

Done.

I have also updated the first post with the deadlines.

[satansaloser2005]

I'm currently trying to convince the phantom to join us. If anyone wants to help in said convincing....

[Kuruharan]

...he said to add him.

[Kuruharan]

Hey guys,

I know it is kind of late in the day to be thinking about this (and that a lot of people are on trips and stuff) but I have been reading the original game threads very carefully the past few days looking for final minor adjustments to improve balance, etc. (I have a list, but I will post those all at once so as to limit confusion).

In reading the previous threads the idea that there needs to be a slightly more solid means of communication between the Dead Thread and the Living Thread has started to gnaw on me significantly. Since roles haven't been assigned yet (so everyone will be able to give their honest opinions re. balance), I thought I would toss my idea out to the group for everyone to look at and discuss whether it should be implemented in this game or if it is a workable idea at all.

My idea is that a single player (I will call it the Visitor) should have the ability to communicate with the opposite thread every NIGHT. I'm hung up on a couple of things. 1) Should this be Dead Thread to Living Thread communication, like a ghostly visitation, or Living to Dead communication (I'm leaning toward Dead to Living). 2) How should this selection of the Visitor be made? I believe this needs to be a rotating role to give the wolves the opportunity to mess with people and cause problems which leads me to question 3) should the Visitor have the ability to choose the recipient of their visitation or should the recipient somehow be determined for them and the Visitor just chooses what they say to the recipient (through me, there will be no direct contact)?

My idea, also, is that the identity of the Visitor will not be known to the recipient. Rather it will be along the lines of, "You recieve a ghostly visitor in the NIGHT. You are so frightened that you cannot tell their identity. The ghost says to you, "cookies are nummy" and departs." Something along those lines.

Anyway, that's my idea. I apologize that I'm bringing this up so late, and it may be that the Village in the previous game had such bad luck that I'm too worried about trying to balance things toward the village.

Those who read, please give me your comments. I would need some solid implementation ideas before I would do this and I don't feel it is ready for that yet, so if we don't iron out kinks this won't happen.

[A Little Green]

OH MY GOD please please please don't say I'm too late to sign up! If not, count me in.

[Firefoot]

Having been so long out of it, I don't really have any opinions on game dynamics, but do we have an approximate start date?

[Kuruharan]

Firstly, Mithalwen asked to join and no it wasn't too late Greenie so welcome aboard!

However, with that sign ups are now officially closed...well, I suppose if somebody begs me before the end of today, but I really do need to start the wheels in motion here.

Since there was no discussion of the Visitor role, it will not be added to this game, but I hope that if somebody does a format like this in future the idea is more thoroughly explored.

NIGHT 1 will begin 10PM US Eastern on Sunday, May 31. DAY 1 will begin 10PM US Eastern on Monday, June 1 and so on.

There are a few added/amended rules that are below (these will also be added to the first post):

Ranger: The Ranger cannot prevent somebody from being lynched. Likewise, the Ranger cannot stop the Hunter kill. The Ranger just protects against regular NIGHT kills.

Dead Thread Reading: For those roles that resurrect, it is permitted for them to read the entire thread before their death and then continue to read and participate in the Dead Thread up until the time that I post the narration announcing their return to the Living Thread. After that post, the resurrected player may not read any further in the Dead Thread until such time as they return to it.

Dead Thread Announcements: For "Reasons" I will not give specific roles as a result of the Dead Thread role reveal votes. My response to those votes will be "PREDATOR" or "PREY."

Just as an aside, the Seer will get explicit results to all their dreams whether in the Living Thread or the Dead Thread.

Dead Thread Quoting: For those who resurrect, they may only paraphrase but NOT directly quote or cite posts in the Dead Thread. However, the Dead may quote and cite posts from the Living Thread.

Dead Thread Post Count: This rule is different from the last game so I hope everyone pays attention to it. It is considered cheating for a Living Player to click on the post count link of the Dead Thread to check and see how many times Dead Thread players have posted. Obviously you will be able to see how many posts there are in total and who the last poster is, but that is it. Do not check who has posted how many times, do not cite who has posted how many times, do not base arguments on it. I do this mainly for RP reasons, deal with it. You are the Living and they are the Dead, you don't know what they are up to.

Now, with that bit of housekeeping out of the way...

A number of people have contacted me and inquired regarding specific roles and I have told a couple of them the following, and I want to broadcast this to everyone so there is a level playing field for all:

I am not going to handpick people for their roles. Roles are going to be picked using some tables I made and the RANDOM function in Excel. That being said, I reserve the right to tweak the results by using partial lists of players and multiple selection rounds to pick a role. So basically I'm saying don't try to play me and who you think I would pick, play each other once the game starts.

I will be handing out roles over Friday and Saturday as I have time. I will post the two game threads on Sunday after all the roles have been assigned. Since this is a large game I will only PM people if they have a special role. If you haven't gotten a PM from me by the time the two game threads appear on the forum, then you are an Ordo and I wish you good luck and I hope you have fun playing.

That wraps it up except for reminding everyone to go invisible and have space cleared in your PM box for messages in case you have a role (no, I'm not trying to insult anybody's intelligence, its just been a long time since we have played and I don't want these to slip anybody's mind).

[Kath]

Hi Kuru! I have just been yelled at by aganzir to get my backside on here and sign up. Can I?

[Kuruharan]

I'll add you.

[Mithalwen]

I did like the visitor/ medium thing but I was catching up on the existing format..being thick here but isn't the lover revenant thing a bit of a role giveaway?

[Eönwë]

I'm sorry, but it looks like I'm going to have to drop out of this game. I won't really have time or internet access from the 6th.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I did like the visitor/ medium thing but I was catching up on the existing format..being thick here but isn't the lover revenant thing a bit of a role giveaway?

Yes, but it is intended to be, otherwise the ordos wouldn't know that they could trust the returned lover.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm sorry, but it looks like I'm going to have to drop out of this game. I won't really have time or internet access from the 6th.

Awww...that's too bad.

Still, hopefully you will get to enjoy reading it.

[Mithalwen]

Oh I see... so one potential certainty....

[Kuruharan]

Roles have started going out, although they have not all gone out yet, the main point of that note being sign ups are most definitely closed and no further players will be accepted.

The main point of this post is I needed to note for everyone a further clarification in the rules. It was rightly pointed out to me that I should definitively clarify the status of the Lovers because there have been games where their role has been ambiguous. The Lovers are both on the side of the village and both win and lose with it.

I will also make a note in the rules in the original post clarifying this.

[Kitanna]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out. I won't have the time to dedicate to this that I thought I would. I'm sorry for the last minute change.

[Inziladun]

I hate to do this at the 11th hour as well, but a family situation has come up, and I'm going to have to bow out.
Sorry.

[Kuruharan]

These things happen.

All the roles have been sent out. I will post the threads tonight.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Between me signing up and the start of the game a general election has been called. Since I am a member of a political party, this means quite a bit of extra work.

If I disappear a bit some days, that will be the explanation. Obviously I will do my best to contribute regularly to the game.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Between me signing up and the start of the game a general election has been called. Since I am a member of a political party, this means quite a bit of extra work.

If I disappear a bit some days, that will be the explanation. Obviously I will do my best to contribute regularly to the game.

Understood.

That's part of the reason why there is a three day grace period on voting (which I think is pretty generous if I do say so myself). With this many people playing, lots of stuff is bound to happen.

[Gwathagor]

P.S. I was actually totally serious when I said I really shouldn't play. Just don't have the time to do it right.

[Kuruharan]

I'll scratch you, then.

[Formendacil]

My apologies for missing the deadline--I was expecting to have time on the train home after my work function, but the function ran later and my phone ran short on juice.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If it is okay, and I am not breaking any rules by doing so?
I would like to ask our more experienced WW-analytics about there methods.

I had an idea that I would use Excel's data transfer option, to get all posts into an easily searchable document, that could also contain my own notes to each post.

It turned out not to be so easy, and with all the editing I need to do, I might as well just have copy pasted the individual posts into the document.

So yeah, any tips to keep track on everything?
Do you just note stuff down and then use the search function on the forum?

Again, sorry if this request breaks any formalities.

[Kuruharan]

I have no tips on the best way to approach that, but I just wanted to say asking doesn't violate any game rules.