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#41 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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As I work through these text again I found some points missing:
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From the passage about Tulkas: Quote:
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Respectfuly Findegil |
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#42 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Ok in everything, I think that the last sentence must be reinserted, it was written by Tolkien and as you said there's no reason to remove it.
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#43 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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What about adding the Note on the "Language of the Valar" in the Valaquenta? I think it would be a nice addition.
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#44 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I would say yes it might be worth the effort.
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#45 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Thoughts
I have found a passage in the Note on the Language of the Valar that should be included. It is added into the last paragraph of the section Of the Valar.
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#46 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Nice find! I will take it up.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#47 | |
King's Writer
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BD-03 / Vala-07.2: In the discussion about chapter 1: ‘Of the Beginig of Time’ Aiwendil supposed an addition from MT, Text VI. He himself speculated that it might batter fit in here. So I proposed these below given placement and editing. We agreed that the ‘Valaquenta’ is the place for it. And that the editing should be discussed here.
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Findegil |
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#48 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It seems there is are a few points from the past 2+ years on this chapter that I have never responded to, so I’ll look at this now.
Vala-00.3: I agree we should include this phrase that Christopher Tolkien skipped. Vala-04.5: Quote:
Vala-05.2: I agree that we should reinstate this phrase deleted by Christopher Tolkien. Vala-05.3: I like this addition and don’t see any problems with it. Vala-07.2: I agree that thisi s the best place for this, but I think a little bit more editing is needed to make it fit, since Tolkien was writing notes to himself here, not text intended to stand in a narrative. Perhaps: Quote:
- Remove the note “Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature”. This is Tolkien’s note to himself about how he intends to change the character of Melkor; it means nothing within the tale. - Remove the “sc. he was the greatest created power”, as this is just Tolkien’s explanatory note about what “the greatest power under Eru” means” - Remove the footnote, which unless I misunderstand is Christopher Tolkien’s note. |
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#49 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Vala-06: You are right, the discussion here ended with the removal of the phrase about Eönwë being the mighties in arms, so I missed to do that in my working copy. I corrected that now.
Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Eönwë, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else? Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense. Respectfully Findegil |
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#50 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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#51 | ||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Sending this draft to gandalf, I realized I had made some changes that I had not commented on. I will do so here:
1) Quote:
2) Quote:
3) Quote:
4) Quote:
5) Quote:
6) Quote:
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#52 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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We discussed such addition before and rejected them. The reason was that these addition deal with Maiar, while in the places were we would add them, the text deals with the Valar.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#53 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Regarding Fin's response to Arcus' first three additions, it is true that Tolkien moved toward a much more structured and delineated approach for this chapter (Elizabeth Whittingham has a good discussion of this in her "Evolution Of Tolkien's Mythology: A Study of the History of Middle-earth"). Maybe we could introduce the lesser spirits later? In Chapter 1, which is where it seems the descriptions of the dwellings were moved? I haven't reviewed that chapter yet, I will see if it makes sense there.
What about the other addition Arcus suggested in 1? Quote:
4) I have problems with this addition. The idea that "all must bow before her" (emphasis mine) and that she is the "mistress of death" does not seem to fit with her character in the revisions, in which she becomes the goddess of pity and compassion and strength and wisdom. 5) and 6) I think these additions work well, especially if these other names are used later. Regarding Vala-07.2 why not just: Quote:
Regarding Vala-07, the comment about Olorin being humble, I think we should remove the apostrophes as we are not quoting anybody. Last edited by gandalf85; 02-11-2019 at 07:29 PM. |
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#54 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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1) Vala-02.45: The addition about Varda from MT is okay for me.
4) Vala-04.3: I think the attributes of being a death goddess were lost for Niënna in the later legendary. So I agree to gandalf85 that this addition is critical. 5) Vala-05.25: Of these names only ‘Tuivána’ is used later. Nonetheless the adition could be considered. 6) Vala-06: Ómar is used later, so we could add him, but I think it was by intention that the sub-chapter ends with Olorin. Vala-07.23b: In thah way it would mean that Eru was a created power, which is not true. Vala-07: I am okay with removing the apostrophes. Respectfully Findegil |
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#55 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Perhaps "He was the greatest power created by Eru."
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#56 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Vala:
That dosn’t sound right either to me, since it would suggest that there were other creators. To be honest, I do not see the need to remove the redundance between the text and the footnote. It is not a full redundance; otherwise the footnote would useless. In the way it stands the footnote does make the message more specific. Respectfully Findegil |
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#57 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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It does not suggest that at all to be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I was more concerned with the flow of it, since at the moment it is very awkward.
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#58 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Vala-07.23: What exactly is awakward on the sentence?
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Findegil |
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#59 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Ah i missed the parentheses and the 'that means.' this does make it flow better.
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#60 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I found an interesting passage in PE 15, p. 96:
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If we take away the references to Eriol and Rumil, and replace 'fairies' with 'Elves', I think we can incorporate this passage into TNS.
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#61 |
King's Writer
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When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)
And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'? Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-06-2023 at 04:27 AM. |
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#62 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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2) We simply remove all references to Eriol, Rumil, Bodhvildr and Nidhhad - and we only keep the material relating to Velindo and Aule, such as this: Quote:
My only problem lies with the name 'Velindo' (and 'Gwilion').
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-06-2023 at 06:31 AM. |
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#63 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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According to another PE text (PE 14, 'The Creatures of the Earth', pp. 9-10), there's plenty of minor 'Maiar' ('fay') factions: 1) 'Nermir' - fays (i.e. Maiar) of the meads 2) 'Tavari' - fays (Maiar) of the woods 3) 'Nandini' - fays (Maiar) of the valleys 4) 'Orossi' - fays (Maiar) of the mountains 5) 'Manir' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar) 6) 'Suruli' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar) 7) 'Malkarauki' - fays (Balrogs - still probably Maiar) And yet according to another PE 14 text (simply called 'Valar', p. 10), the 'fays' (i.e. Maiar) are divided into 4 elemental groups: air, earth, water, and fire: 1) Air: 'Manir', 'Suruli' 2) Earth: 'Tavari', 'Nermir', 'Nandini', 'Pelloini' (not seen before), 'Alandri' (not seen before) - while 'Orossi' is missing from the list 3) Water: 'Wingildi', 'Oarni/Oaritsi', 'Nenuvar', 'Ailior', 'Ektelarni', 'Capalini' - not of whom were seen before 4) Fire: - - no entries - - (see below, under 'Sacha') However, there are also individual 'fays/fairies/early Valar' (i.e. Maiar) named throughout Parma Eldalamberon: 1) Sacha (or Sáya) - the "fire-fay", only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 66) 2) Ailinónë - a 'fay' that dwelt on a lily on a pool, probably one of the Nenuvar, only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 29) 3) Nardi - a 'flower-Vala/fairy', only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 68) 4) Tavros - the chief 'wood-fay', probably one of the Tavari, only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 69) 5) Tethil (or Tetillë) - a 'flower fay' inhabiting poppies, mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 70), as well as the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 92)
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#64 |
Late Istar
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Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.
I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me. |
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#65 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
![]() With that said, there are plenty of instances in the early legendarium where famous mythological figures are equated with the characters in Tolkien's stories - for example: Quote:
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#66 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Not directly related, but: Thuringwethil is described as a 'bat-shaped fay' (i.e. Maia) in the Etymologies in The Lost Road, entry THUR-, p. 393.
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#67 |
King's Writer
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I do not find any discussion about Manir and Suruli, and I don't remember what was my reason to remove them, other than that a single mention in the place where they where encountered would only have caused confusion in a reader: If we do not mention and explain what they are, they have to be removed when later mentioned.
I am not agianst all these fay's from the old souces. But to add them in good way, without creativ writing seems to be not easy. Beside that all names of groups and induvidual will need a check if still possible in the later tongue (which I can't do). Respectfully Findegil |
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