Game Thread: TIG XCII - Disaster by the Lake

[Bom Tombadillo]

Originally Posted by Kathwolf

Lottie and Bom are both using kthxbai. Cobbler to wolf? Wolf to wolf? Totally random?

Random for my part. Wolflote can speak for herself.

I'm still suspicious of Nerwolf, though Wolfrod makes some good points about Wolf-zilla. I might vote for either of them (either of Nerwolf or Wolf-zilla, that is). Galadriwolf55 still doesn't seem that terribly suspicious to me, though that opinion is subject to change.

Nobody else stands out to me. Wolfrod is his usual self as far as I know, and nobody else has done/said anything especially interesting, unless I've missed something (entirely possible).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"Still" suspicious? Interesting, given that so far all you've mentioned re: Nerwen is a polite request to explain why she used the word "backstabbing" in her first IC post.

And are you suspicious of Inzil just because Nogrod says to be, or do you actually have any reasons of your own?

[Bom Tombadillo]

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

Besides, I can find nothing more to suspect anyone because of. If anybody would care to confess wolvishness? No? Then since I have no time machine, I am forced to form suspicions based on the (very) little information available so far.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

Ah, it's nice to feel the love. You'd be amazed what can be accomplished from a computer nowadays.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm not sure how many games Lottie has actually played with Bom - any idea, anyone? If she really had no idea that Bom being weird and suspicious on purpose on Day1's is about as new as me being Mr Agreeable, I'd understand her backing off like this; whereas Zil should have known better than try to get any sense out of Bom on Day1, especially after helping me get lynched for the same thing (among others) last game. I don't see how this makes Lottie more suspicious, and if Zil turns out to be a wolf at some point, I'll be looking hard at Nog.

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Shasta did indeed sound sneaky at the beginning, like Agan said (and munching apples to demonstrate his vegetarianism?); has since gone into combat-mode and zoomed in on Zil, which I happen to agree with. Past games in mind, that should perhaps give me pause, but we'll see.

Shasta's last post bizarrely has me feeling all right about him at the moment.

x/d with Bom

[Nogrod]

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

Okay. I need to think and check a few things. But anyone willing to talk, I'll be around for the next... while...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

If you have no points of your own and just latch on to someone else's, yes.

At least your suspicion of Nerwen is original, but I still don't see what it's based on. Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by Zil

Ah, it's nice to feel the love.

You're most welcome.

Originally Posted by Zil

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.

I have similar feelings about more than one player in this game.

[Nogrod]

Okay. My initial reason to suspect Lottie more than Zil from their more or less similar actions (turning their wheels on Bom) was that unlike Zil who added the "it might be taken in many ways", Lottie went on saying "never mind, then".

Now it is hard for me to see any innocent saying that because someone acts suspiciously - and that is his habit - then there is no reaason to look after that person, that we should not mind ourselves with that person at all.

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Now looked at through the Devil's Avocate's eyes there would be just a nice solution to Lottie's behaviour. After a few people make quite strong points for Bom being "just himself" and thus not especially super-suspicious because of that, she feels she should not pursue that point any further. As a wolf she has nothing at stake there (presuming Bom's innocence, that is, and which would be probable if Lottie is a wolf) and thus she just says "never mind" as to show she's off from that pursuit. But as a wolf she forgets that an innocent can't think "never mind" on anyone... and that betrays her.

Okay. If you're not a wolf Lottie, don't get mad at me, but that is the rational explanation I can give to what you said...

Now Zil seems to be a big questionmark in his own right and I do need to check back on him as well.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Kit

I wouldn't read too much into any of that unless it continues further. It looked like a bunch of Day 1 silliness for all involved.

All his talk of being the cobbler looked exactly like that to me - Day 1 silliness. Whoever the cobbler is, I doubt they're going to go jumping up and down shouting "I'm the cobbler!"

Originally Posted by Nog

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?

Quite honestly, I think you're reading too much into that comment. The way I saw it, she was just mentioning her bad luck concerning the Days - a thing a wolf would not "slip" since she wouldn't consider it bad luck at all.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. You know, I'm guessing Boro would actually avoid making the cobbler, well, the cobbler.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on that - or we might as well start rationalizing it along the lines of "Shasta (miscreant) and Inzil (furrier) are probably not wolves because of their dodgy occupations".

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm here

Second game in a row! You've got to be kidding me, dear.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Also, being aggressive per se isn't necessarily evil in WW, is it?

Not necessarily, no - some tend to play more agreeable when they're evil. But aggressive can also have to do with nervous and overreacting, which, in their turn, are traits that often enough go with being evil.

Originally Posted by Nog

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

I can relate.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and Nog

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Normal to him or not, jumping all around the place calling himself the cobbler is at best adding to the confusion. --- That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him just for that. It will depend on his later posting and on what others do meanwhile.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

-Grabs another apple-

You should have seen the way Greenie and I ate an apple at the concert venue. Hint: Legate, of all people, predicted it was going to turn erotic.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You mean you're in two different wolfpacks? Also, that would be quite a convenient thing to say if the two of you were packmates, in case of some later wolf-on-wolf.

Yes I do. And I know, and if you want to argue whether I'd bring attention to us like that so early on, go ahead. There are arguments both for and against it.

Originally Posted by Pitch

I don't know about Zil, but are you, Miss Pretty Leather-boots?

Yes. But it's up to you to decide what I'm actually trying to say.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Acting unusually is one of the clearest signs of someone being evil. Bom's behavior struck me as unusual, but when I was reassured that it was usual for me, I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.

Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

You just cracked me up so badly.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!

Ah but it isn't that simple: Nog works in mysterious ways. Sharp-eyed Nogrod might be protecting an assumed gifted by saying that! Chew on that, wolves (and even if Lottie happens to be one, you can always discuss Nog's motives ).

Originally Posted by Pitch

One thing he said I agree with though, that there was probably a wolf involved somewhere in the early talk toDay. I'd really like Kit to come back and talk some more while I'm online.

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

I was feeling good about Pitch up until that.

her question to Bom re pretty leather boots has a whiff of wolf waving to the self-revealed cobbler, but a) she would know not to take that reveal at face value, and b) she also does that pretty often as an innocent (as I know too well).

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

I am still feeling bad about Shasta because he pops in every now and then in a way that reminds me vividly of him as a wolf - it's not like he was chasing the kill or jumping for its throat, he's rather just snapping at its legs.

I'm feeling ok with Nerwen and Nog at the moment. My vote is probably going to be for Shasta or Lottie, or Pitch but rather not because apart from this one weird thing, he's making the most sense out of the three.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. I may have to vote here in a bit, and not much clue who to go for.

Bom is just too easy of a target, on Day 1 especially.

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

Agan makes me nervous, no surprise there.



x/d with Agan

[Nogrod]

I could buy this multi-tasking explanation by Zil (I know from experience it is darn hard to try and play WW while multi-tasking - although that leads me not to do that if possible), but it looks quite odd what Pitchie pointed out back there on page1 on him forgetting Galadriel's vote even thoguh he commented on it in the same post he made the initial suspicion on Nerwen.

It kind of looks more like trying to save the milk that was accidentally spilled. I mean multi tasking can distract one, but like that?

Well, to be honest, I don't know. There's a four hour interval between the first post and the continuation of the discussion so it is possible he forgot it... then again it looks like a classic "save-manouver" by someone who is not speaking truthfully.


EDIT: X'd with some posts I see...

[Inziladun]

Ok, let's do this:

++Nog

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.

Now it's time for salsa, chips, and chicken fajitas.

Good Day.

[A Little Green]

Nah. Well past bed-time for me.

++ Nog

Strongest bad vibes this far. Nothing new to add to what I've already said, but to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Nogrod]

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

Originally Posted by Greenie

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".


EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

I did say I wasn't going to be around until an hour before DL.

But I am back and I've skimmed and Lottie's name looked bolded a lot and I see two votes for Nog. I'm going to do the best I can to read and comment in the time I have.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

She said he was reading too much into two things (Gal's Night activities and you & Lottie's reactions to Bom) which isn't exactly a point against him, and then she said this:

Originally Posted by Green

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

to which I offered an alternative explanation in #50 so I don't really think it's that good of a point at all.

I refuse to judge Greenie yet because I know her and Nog and I don't want to start arguing so early on (and besides we're both wolves, even if in different packs), but Zil's jump on her feeble points against Nog doesn't sit right with me at all. Especially as I have decided to like Noggins for now, and I like his point against Lottie.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

a) You're welcome.
And b) I ran out of smilies because I wanted to have two s to signal my merriment. And I have a vague memory of that but can't remember which game it was.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by LupineGreen?

to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.

I was not reaching with Galadriel as I only asked from what role would she say that?

Also, I think I made it clear why I think Lottie looks suspicious. Greenie seems to have had no time or wish to comment on my explanation on that (#47). And what I said in #55 doesn't make Greenie look any better.

But seeing Inzil's eagerness to jump on what Greenie has been preparing looks not the less suspicious. Blah... the clock is ticking and I need to go to sleep...

[Aganzir]

Out of the two, Greenie looks more nit-picky while Inzil looks opportunistic, but then again it's Inzil who's already been voted for... except I'm not sure if it was ever going to turn into a bandwagon. Hmm.

Vote count in a minute.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".

Really? Because that is what I meant, more or less. I could hardly have raised one point against someone - and a ridiculously weak point at that, more Day 1 nothing-else-to-go-on speculation than anything - and then, when brought to the realization that that point is invalid, gone ahead and decided that that person could never ever possibly be a wolf based solely on the invalidation of the one point. I mean, really.

EDIT: Xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)

Left: Agan, Bom, Kit, Lottie, Nog, Nerwen, Pitch, sally, Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

From the phone - I don't know what to make of Agan's little slip just now, in regards to.... Was it Lottie? It is so difficult to work on this thing. It had to do with Agan pointing out that someone looked Gifted, which is odd (the cobblery kind).

Right now though -

++Inzil

++Inzil

I can't remember which format is right, so there's both.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clarification - Agan in regards to Lottie thinking "unusual" means "wolfish", post 50.

[Loslote]

I am not especially happy with Zil's vote, but I'm also not especially happy with the arguments against him earlier in the Day. Neither am I happy with Nog's case against me, which is not only based on a exageration of a misinterpretation of an early Day 1 comment, but I think it's also a bit silly if you think about it. I'm not convinced of the furriness of either of them, but they are currently my choices for lynchdom - probably Nog more than Zil, but I not sure if that's just me being grumpy.

Edit: Xed with Shasta's vote

[Aganzir]

If Lottie is a wolf, which would've been the most sensible/typical course for her: to keep going after Bom (and hopefully eventually get an innocent lynched, assuming he's one); or take the careful path and drop the suspicion so she wouldn't be suspected herself?

If Lottie is a wolf, how did Bom's "reveal" affect what she said of him?

Reading back trying to find an answer for these questions brought me to this:

Originally Posted by Greenie

Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.

Why single out cobbler? Does she want to say, "No, see here, Bom is not the cobbler!!"
And Lottie's reply:

I don't think I've played with him enough yet - I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then.

So how did it become about the cobbler? As I see it, Lottie originally also offered two other options! It looks like they're both reading too much into it: first Greenie grasps at a part of a sentence, then Lottie immediately backs off.
Weirdos.

[Nogrod]

Darn deadline. I should go to sleep but then again the game is finally turning out interesting - and the whisper in my ear says "it's only 40 minutes, c'mon"...

If I would need to vote right now not caring about the probabilities of who's actually going to get lynched, I'd say Greenie. But I'm going to think about the other possibilities as well as connections for a moment then.

Lottie: sure, when Greenie gives you the line that makes your comment less suspicious it is clear you say that is the one you meant - and I mean in both cases; if you're an innocent or if you're a wolf.

I do smell some wisdom from the Owl of Minerva here (afterthought, wisdom after the facts, whatever way you have of saying it in English).

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

From the phone - I don't know what to make of Agan's little slip just now, in regards to.... Was it Lottie? It is so difficult to work on this thing. It had to do with Agan pointing out that someone looked Gifted, which is odd (the cobblery kind).

Lottie said behaving unusually is one of the clearest signs of being evil. It's not - it's one of the clearest signs of not being ordinary. That's why I don't automatically suspect everyone who is being unusual but rather wait till I've figured out more, and that's something Lottie totally overlooked. Might be she doesn't care if she lynches a gifted.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.

And why would a wolf do that?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".

But if she thought that particular point against that person, which was the only point against them at the time, was moot, why would she have to say she'd watch him (more) closely (than anybody else)?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

Enjoy. I've half a mind to add one.

Originally Posted by Agan

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?

Btw I don't think your alternative explanations works, but I'd rather not go into details at this time.

(x-ed with Nog, Agan, Lottie, Agan)

EDIT: and actually a lot more.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Even after rereading the thread I'm somewhat confused, but I just get that way sometimes, so meh. I'll make a final decision on who to vote for later.

EDIT: X'd with everyone since Nog.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Lottie: sure, when Greenie gives you the line that makes your comment less suspicious it is clear you say that is the one you meant - and I mean in both cases; if you're an innocent or if you're a wolf.

No, this isn't a case of trying to avoid suspicion. At this point I don't really get surprised at Day 1 suspicion. That's not what bothers me here. I simply don't see how you could think I would do that at all, wolf or innocent. Free passes are not something I (or anyone else, I should think!) give out on basis of one line of reasoning being cut off. Your argument makes no sense to me because I wouldn't do that, no matter what role I happen to have.

EDIT: xed thrice

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Lottie said behaving unusually is one of the clearest signs of being evil. It's not - it's one of the clearest signs of not being ordinary. That's why I don't automatically suspect everyone who is being unusual but rather wait till I've figured out more, and that's something Lottie totally overlooked. Might be she doesn't care if she lynches a gifted.

Fair enough, but in doing so you're indirectly saying "unusualness can mean giftedness" which, when taken together with Lottie saying Bom is acting unusually, looks to me like you're pointing out a possible gifted - which is something I can't see an innocent doing.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And why would a wolf do that?

To look like the cobbler, which I actually said in my first post about him.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Nogrod]

I just checked it: Greenie never mentions Zil in her late posting, even if he was under some considerable pressure. But she made her "decision" on me on grounds of defending Galadriel (for which there was no reason) and Lottie (to whom I was "reaching" - even if I had explained it in two posts why I said I was suspicious of her).

First of all it looks pretty wolvish to vote by "defending others" (in normal situations on D1 the only ones who can do it are wolves). But secondly it makes both Gal & Lottie look more innocent (neither was in dire straits and defending ordos is the best way for a wolf to gain trust and friendship).

But the fact she didn't mention Zil at all, despite the suspicions, makes me wonder if the two really are in cahoots...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

...unless they have been voiced over already... the wolves tend to read the thread at Night.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Fair enough, but in doing so you're indirectly saying "unusualness can mean giftedness" which, when taken together with Lottie saying Bom is acting unusually, looks to me like you're pointing out a possible gifted - which is something I can't see an innocent doing.

If that's the price I have to pay for pointing out others' suspicious behaviour, then so be it. And I doubt the wolves are going to attack Bom thinking he's a gifted just because he's "behaving unusually" - they need more than that. So basically what I said matters not.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?

In this case I'd say it would've been appropriate because otherwise you're just throwing random suspicion towards the unfortunate people who happened to be around at the beginning.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

To look like the cobbler, which I actually said in my first post about him.

And risk getting dreamed? Nah. And if I was a gifted I'd totally try to attract the seer's attention and then find a way to exchange information and then do something awesome... so again, it isn't that simple.

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)
Shasta - Inzil 2

Left: Agan, Bom, Kit, Lottie, Nog, Nerwen, Pitch, sally

[Pitchwife]

Time for me to count my metaphoric sheep.

I'm actually quite inclined to vote Nog, but I haven't yet digested the recent discussion about him wholly, and I'd rather not do it in the heat of the moment. So I'll stick with my earlier suspicion:

++Zil

Forgetting about G55's vote sounds almost unbelievable enough to be true, but it still smells of retconning, and I'm not happy with his pounce on Nerwen in the first place. Let's find out.