LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[davem]

I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.

[Kuruharan]

If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel.

Bingo!

what about the phial of Galadriel? Does the Ring sence that her power is still with them? If so, what would that do to the Ring's will?

Hmm...interesting.

I'm reluctant to think that the Ring has any 'draw' towards Mordor, or even any 'urge' to leave one person and find another Bearer.

Well, you may certainly think this if you like, but you are not in agreement with the text...of which I believe somebody already helpfully provided a relevant passage.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

What I meant was, just as a compass needle not in the vicinity of a magnetic object would be drawn to magnetic North, so the Ring would be drawn to Mount Doom, but if any other 'magnetic' objeact came into its orbit it would be pulled that way. Once it had 'seduced' that individual into itself the pull to Mount Doom would reassert itself. So, the overall pull would be to the Mountain, but the Ring may get sidetracked . It needs bearers to get it to its destination, but it changes them as soon as it finds a better mode of transport.

Basically this means that no-one could master the Ring - it would always retain the power to leave its 'master' & move on. My own feeling is that it is the Fires at the heart of the earth, rather than Sauron, which draw the Ring. I've speculated before that 'the fires which well up from the heart of the earth' (ie the fires of Orodruin) are the same as the Secret Fire which Eru set to burn at the heart of the earth.

The thing that now occurs is, while the Ring may not have 'desired' its own destruction in the fire, it may have 'desired' to return to, & become one with, its source (which it may not have seen as 'destruction' at all)

Now, all the foregoing may seem to imply a conscious, desiring, will on the Ring's part - which I don't necessarily think is the case. It is, to my mind, perhaps on the level of a moth drawn to a candle flame, which, if it attains its 'desire' will find only its own destruction.

[Encaitare]

A contribution because I've been away from CbC for far too long, albeit a small one because, well, Spanish essays don't write themselves. Regarding the oft-quotes star passage:

For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Symbolism and aesthetic quality aside, the actual structure of this sentence really helps to bring the point home. The light (or Light, as it may be) is the point of the sentence; just as it states that the Shadow is "a small and passing thing," Tolkien skims right over it here, from light to light.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Well, you may certainly think this if you like, but you are not in agreement with the text...of which I believe somebody already helpfully provided a relevant passage.

And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.

This does not mean that the Ring is sentient; that is only one way of looking at the meaning of those words. Of course Gollum would never have "forsaken it, or cast it aside", it was his precious; what happened was that he lost it. And fate so happened that Bilbo found it. This is a way of explaining to Frodo how such things happen, how he came to be in the situation he was left in, as a Ringbearer. Yes, the Ring left Gollum, and yes, the Ring decided the future course of Bilbo and Frodo's lives, but it did not do so sentiently.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This does not mean that the Ring is sentient; that is only one way of looking at the meaning of those words. Of course Gollum would never have "forsaken it, or cast it aside", it was his precious; what happened was that he lost it. And fate so happened that Bilbo found it. This is a way of explaining to Frodo how such things happen, how he came to be in the situation he was left in, as a Ringbearer. Yes, the Ring left Gollum, and yes, the Ring decided the future course of Bilbo and Frodo's lives, but it did not do so sentiently.

I believe that Kuruharan is not using this passage so much to prove the Ring's sentience as he is using it to prove that it was the Ring, not a divine force, which prompted the Ring to abandon Gollum.

That does not leave Divine Force out of the picture! Bilbo was, after all, "meant to find it", but the Divine Force element seems more visible in Gandalf's sudden inspiration to send Bilbo along, than in any move the Ring makes.

It's really getting into that age-old question of Free Will and Divine Intervention again...

[Kuruharan]

I believe that Kuruharan is not using this passage so much to prove the Ring's sentience

Actually, I'm afraid I am. It is the simplest interpretation to put on the text in question and it does not cause any real problems in interpretation later on. The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

I have to ask myself why this is...

[davem]

And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.

This could simply be Gandalf's way of saying that once the Ring had moved on from Gollum (for whatever reason) it was a fait a compli. Like saying 'I'd been thinking about getting a new car for a while, then my old one packed up, so in the end it was the car that decided things & I had to get a new one.' Doesn't imply the car was sentient & 'decided' to stop working so I'd have to get a new one - its just a way of speaking.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

Nope - the other problem is explaining how an object without a brain can think. I do understand where you're coming from, & a thinking Ring is the easiest explanation for events & statements in the book, but as I've begun to think more about it I'm starting to see that its not necessary for the Ring to be sentient.

[Kuruharan]

the other problem is explaining how an object without a brain can think.

Not a problem. I don't consider the Ring to be thinking on a "physical" level. I'm thinking (har har) that this goes on in a spiritual level. Basically I'm implying that the Ring has a fea.

[Aiwendil]

Kuruharan wrote:

Basically I'm implying that the Ring has a fea.

Now I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn the tables and ask you to explain how that is possible.

I find it hard to imagine Iluvatar saying "Wow, Sauron's really doing quite a job with this ring he's making. I think I'll give it a soul." It would be a situation somewhat analogous to the Dwarves, except that Eru gave them fear only because Aule had intended good.

If you ask me, the "soul" behind the Ring is not a fea but an eala - specifically, Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

Now I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn the tables and ask you to explain how that is possible.

-and-

If you ask me, the "soul" behind the Ring is not a fea but an eala - specifically, Sauron.

Hmm...you may have a point about that. Hasty choice of words on my part.

However, I don't think that the part of Sauron that went into the Ring was entirely "Sauron" after that point. I think it was something else...note how if somebody else (read Gandalf) claimed the Ring and mastered it the Ring would be able to survive even though Sauron's spirit would be permanently broken.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmm...you may have a point about that. Hasty choice of words on my part.

However, I don't think that the part of Sauron that went into the Ring was entirely "Sauron" after that point. I think it was something else...note how if somebody else (read Gandalf) claimed the Ring and mastered it the Ring would be able to survive even though Sauron's spirit would be permanently broken.

The Ring would survive, of course. It's physical being was not tied to Sauron's survival. Whether or it's will/fea/sentience/etc would survive is somewhat different.

That's being rather picky, of course, but the survival of the Ring and the survival of its will are not completely the same thing, according to our understanding of speech.

In general, I agree with your statements, but your assertion there was somewhat flawed.

[davem]

I wonder if Tolkien was inspired by the story of The Giant who had no heart - though its a common theme in folklore. The giant is impervious to harm because he has placed his heart in some obect which is hidden away

"Far, far away in a lake lies an island; on that island stands a church; in that church is a well; in that well swims a duck; in that duck there is an egg, and in that egg there lies my heart."

In the same way Sauron's 'heart' is in the Ring. In order to kill him the Ring must be found & destroyed in a certain way.

It has been shown by Shippey that Tolkien often took mythological themes & tried to 'reconstrcuct the 'actual' story that had been lost - see his esay on Light Elves & Dark Elves in Tolkien Studies vol 1 - Norse mythology mentions 'Light Elves & Dark Elves (losalfar & swartalfar), but doesn't explain what they are or what the difference is. Tolkien constructs an 'explanation' & comes up with the Calaquendi & the Moriquendi. Maybe with the relationship between Sauron & the Ring he was doing the same.

Of course, this doesn't offer an explanation in terms of the story of Sauron & its workings within Middle-earth, so we're not much further forward....

[Kuruharan]

That's being rather picky, of course, but the survival of the Ring and the survival of its will are not completely the same thing, according to our understanding of speech.

What makes you think that? I think that the Ring's will and the will of its new master would have been fused together. The Ring would no longer have been Sauron's but the person who claimed it would no longer be the same person they were before either. I think the Ring and its new master would have changed each other.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What makes you think that? I think that the Ring's will and the will of its new master would have been fused together. The Ring would no longer have been Sauron's but the person who claimed it would no longer be the same person they were before either. I think the Ring and its new master would have changed each other.

I'm simply being pedantic, with a dash of humour.

If the Ring is being used/held by a new Dark Lord, it continues to exist. There is a still a perfect golden band with hidden Mordorian inscriptions on somebody's finger.

I wasn't saying that it would be exactly the same...

Or being 100% serious.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only problem seems to be that people don't want to acknowledge that the Ring is a character in the books that is capable of taking action to get what it wants.

I have to ask myself why this is...

Maybe that's another 'division' between or amongst readers? Do you think the Ring is a character or not? By 'character' I mean in the sense that it can make decisions and act upon them.

Why do I think it is not a character in that sense? For several reasons, including that it does create more problems to my mind than considering it as a powerful yet somehow unearthly object. One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience? He may have sought to create it in such a way that it would have some kind of 'magnetic' property or other kind of force which was stronger the closer it was to him, but we cannot say that for certain. The 'pull' that Frodo feels in Mordor could be down to many things besides the powers of the Ring.

Though on this topic I am open to persuasion...

[Kuruharan]

One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience?

It wasn't really a threat to Sauron. It was him, in a manner of speaking. There was, after all, only the remotest of remote possibilities that the Ring could be used against him in some way. Of course, it was, but it was still a fool's chance at that, and it did not really have a lot to do with the sentience of the Ring. In fact, the sentience of the Ring was part of its defense against that sort of thing.

[Bêthberry]

Are the Silmarillions characters? Perhaps it might be worthwhile considering the nature of material art forms and their power over beholders.

[drigel]

Obviously we could move this particular topic to another thread, but, seeing as this is the second to the last chapter where the ring acutally exists, ill throw down here. It's an interesting discussion about the ring. What's more interesting to me is how so many different angles people take on the works. Its why I love this website. So, into the fray....

OK well, I dont ever mind being in the minority on any debate - but - I have to say whooooahhhh folks slow down.

A couple of things first:
In the context of the story, I do agree that many of the players do imply, bestow, and otherwise conclude a will towards the ring. If I were immersed into the drama I would as well, I suppose. Especially if I had no understanding of the craft or technology or history. How would a peasant from the middle age view a computer or an Apache helicoptor, or (and a closer analogy for this age) - the computer at NORAD that controls ICBM nuclear missles (that, oh by the way, has super malevolent evil software programming)?

Since the author chose not to have the reader have any 1st or 2nd person experience of the main protagonist (Sauron), then the ring benefited or inherited the main protagonist role. It's a genious effect, but lets not run away with it.

If the Ring could sense the Nazgul, what possible reason could you propose that it could not sense Gandalf?

Well, both the Nazgul and the ring are creations of Sauron, possibly there might be something sensed, but the sensing is from the Nazgul IMO.

If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"? Well, since you have already granted sentience, why not?

The ring to me is both a study of power and of evil. Its in the ring - yes - but the bearers of the ring is where the action is. All the little slips and turns that are being used as examples for sentience to me show only Eru's subtle hand in events as Lalwende's quote is suggesting:

Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes?

The ring slipped off Isildur's finger while he was swimming in a river. Cursed by the evil intentions of the ring, wanting a more evil bearer? Cursed by fate that knew that it should have been destroyed forever on Gorgoroth? Or, did it simply slip off?

At this point, it's sitting in the sand at the bottom of a river. Its a piece of metal. Like my power saw unplugged. All the potential in the world, but nothing really, but some metal. Only until my saw becomes plugged in is when the purpose of the saw begins. Of course I could cut my hand off as well as make a table, or an heirloom cabinet with it, or mabye I just need it to trim a 2X4... Its the same with the bearers to me. All the will and sensing and sentience doesnt come into play until the ring gets it's bearer, and with the bearer comes good and evil and fate and choice...

But back to Lal's quote, which to me is the best argument. After Isildur, its found by Smeagle, then Bilbo and on to Frodo. Curious that the hands of Halflings are the bearers. They apparantly are the only species alive in ME that had the intestinal fortitude of goodness that could actually bear the ring and not claim it. I see Eru's hand in that, not the ring's will.

[lathspell]

Is the Ring a character? Yes, I think so. And yes, I believe the Ring is a character with the ability of making decisions and acting upon them within it's reach.
If it isn't a character, than how do you explain this?

Though he found that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded it an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.

This is Gandalf speaking to Frodo in 'the Shadow of the Past'.

The Ring expanded or shrank and slipped of a finger where it had been tight. How can this have been? Fingers don't suddenly get smaller. This is where the Ring's ability for decisionmaking is most perceptable. It chooses to expand or shrink. And when you make decisions, you have a purpose. And when you have a purpose, you have a will.

One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience?

It wasn't really a threat to Sauron. It was him, in a manner of speaking. There was, after all, only the remotest of remote possibilities that the Ring could be used against him in some way. Of course, it was, but it was still a fool's chance at that, and it did not really have a lot to do with the sentience of the Ring. In fact, the sentience of the Ring was part of its defense against that sort of thing.

In this case I agree with Kuruharan. The Ring was never made by Sauron with the intention to loose it. The Ring was never made to fall into the hands of his enemies. Sauron made it with the purpose of domination. It wouldn't have occured to him that he might loose it, just as it didn't occur to him that his enemies might seek to destroy it.
And after he lost it, the abilities of the Ring proved the best defencemechanism that you could wish for. The Ring tried to find Sauron as well as Sauron tried to find the Ring. The Ring tried to leave Frodo, using Boromir as victim. The Nazgûl were never far off. But it couldn't leave Frodo by it's ability of expanding or shrinking, because Frodo always kept it on it's chain. A ring in a ring.

Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes?

Now you mix up to things. Choosing to leave someone is quite a different thing than choosing the next person that picks you up. It left Isildur with orcs at hand. If it was the Ring's intention to be found by them, I daren't say, because it would be a rash action to leave Isildur in the Anduin. However, it did abandon it's master's enemies.
After this comes Gollum, who takes it for his own after murdering Deagol. The Ring abandones him in a place full of orcs (and in a time when the Necromancer is searching again near the place where it was lost). It was picked up, as Gandalf says, by the unlikeliest person imaginable.
The history of the Ring from Isildur's fall on confirms the theorie of the Ring being able to abandon someone, but not being able to choose it's next master.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"? Well, since you have already granted sentience, why not?

Well, if I have to choose between 'he' and 'she' it would logically be a 'he'. The part that was put in it was Sauron's. And Sauron was male. Though in this case it was unintended to give the Ring a gender and I will in future continue to reflect to the Ring as 'it'.

[drigel]

lath
Those are good points (Kuruharan's too). And there isnt a right and wrong as I see it. I just dont see it the same way I guess.

Gandalf's quote has weight to the argument. I suppose I view it differently because I view Gandalfs take, as scholarly as it was, as giving too much credit to the ring. But, as a reader, I know that Gandalf knoweth not the will of Eru: he was making a best of an educated guess as he could. Why could that effect of shrinkage not have been caused by the evil nature of the ring? In other words, why leap to the conclusion that it was the ring's idea? That could happen to any evil ring that is worn by someone not wholly evil. Would shrinkage happen to an orc? Wraith? It's sentient enough for rejecting wearers only? Why would it not slip off every finger all the time?

It left Isildur with orcs at hand. If it was the Ring's intention to be found by them, I daren't say, because it would be a rash action to leave Isildur in the Anduin.

Sentient and omnipresent?

But we cant nail it down either way. I just attribute more to fate, evil or good, and Eru's plan, than I attribute to the ring being its own master.

Aw heck, I dont know lol. I just think if it's that sentient, it would have found an orc in the Misty's somewheres and eventually rolled itself back to daddy S.

[Kuruharan]

But, as a reader, I know that Gandalf knoweth not the will of Eru: he was making a best of an educated guess as he could.

What does what Gandalf may or may not know about the will of Eru (and I think it rather presumptuous to assume what Gandalf "knew." He may have been limited but he always "knew" more than he told.) have to do with the nature of the Ring?

In other words, why leap to the conclusion that it was the ring's idea? That could happen to any evil ring that is worn by someone not wholly evil. Would shrinkage happen to an orc? Wraith? It's sentient enough for rejecting wearers only? Why would it not slip off every finger all the time?

I'm afraid this makes no sense. You sound like you are making an argument in favor of sentience, that the Ring is trying to pick its spots.

I just think if it's that sentient, it would have found an orc in the Misty's somewheres and eventually rolled itself back to daddy S

Not necessarily. Sentience does not imply all-powerful, any more than any other character in the story is all-powerful. The Ring is extremely limited physically, it is after all...just a Ring (as you pointed out earlier). It does require a bearer because it has no arms and legs. The Ring can attempt to abandon a bearer, but it has very limited physical tools to accomplish this. The Ring probably thinks it is more effective to attempt to dominate the bearer so that the bearer will do its will.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"?

If you want to go that way...because Sauron is a he.

[drigel]

What does what Gandalf may or may not know about the will of Eru (and I think it rather presumptuous to assume what Gandalf "knew." He may have been limited but he always "knew" more than he told.) have to do with the nature of the Ring?

The point being that whats being bestowed upon the ring. But your point is taken - I suppose the difference being the nature of evil and the nature of the ring. I cant clearly delineate one from the other to make sense to the universe... arrrghh

I'm afraid this makes no sense. You sound like you are making an argument in favor of sentience, that the Ring is trying to pick its spots.

Sorry - your quite right My intention was to carry the thesis of sentient ring further along. Were there not plenty of times it could have slipped off his finger, to be found by a wood elf, dwarf or orc? Couldnt the damage (or evils cause) been greater in their hands, rather than a hobbit? Or, was it riding along w/Bilbo to see what mis-adventures they could have together? Just doesnt make sense to me. In other words, if that is possible for the ring, why waste time and just pop off the finger immediately, rejecting the bearer? My proposal being that mabye artifacts made by the devil (or his minions) werent meant for goodly people. I call upon a higher level of Power, beyond Sauron or his products for the effect that you credit the ring on I suppose.

The Ring can attempt to abandon a bearer, but it has very limited physical tools to accomplish this.

My point exactly is that the ring is nothing without a bearer, with the exeption of Sauron of course.

Id rep Lath, Lal and Kuru if I could btw. you guys are great! so much more than meets they eye with you guys...
thinking.....
late edit:
One thing i will attribute to the ring. The ring is wholly evil. Evil is a part of our world. Our world is part of nature. Nature abhors a vacume. The evilness of the rings nature would cause the ring to seem to seek bearers. Other than that, I cant see of the other stuff.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

If you want to go that way...because Sauron is a he.

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps an example will help illustrate.

The Ring left Gollum because Gollum was no longer of any use. It dropped itself in a place where it would think an orc would find it. Given its physical limitations this was about the best it could do. This is where Eru intervenes because who should happen to be blundering about the tunnels but the most unlikeliest of persons, Bilbo Baggins.

Oops!

However, all is not lost. We still have to get out of the tunnels. Surely this silly creature will not be able to find a way out.

Ooops! That stoopid numbskull Gollum showed the creature the way out.

No worries! The orcs are guarding the door.

*pop* goes the Ring off the finger. It is about to be rescued!! Huzzah!!

#@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit.

However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made. At least it was out of Gollum’s cave and out in the Wide World again. Who knows what could happen out there. (We do, of course, but at the time a world of possibilities would seem to open before the Ring’s metaphorical eyes.)

My point exactly is that the ring is nothing without a bearer

I think in a way we were agreeing here. I wouldn’t say the Ring is nothing, I think the Ring remains the same thing. However, it requires a bearer to be able to do anything.

what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

For some reason, I think Mister Underhill might find this interesting…

Now, no doubt, I'm going to hear about how The Hobbit is non-canonical.

[davem]

Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there.

Of course, it could be that such a form of 'life' did exist in Middle earth...

[Kuruharan]

there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

But then we have some rather awkward passages in the text that seem to shift Occam's Razor in the other direction.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

May I recommend one of my all time favourite threads that touches upon this question: The One Ring? Sharkû's (#23 and following) and Mister Underhill's posts are well worth reading repeatedly!

[drigel]

#@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit.

However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made.

um,mm having too much fun w/Bilbo to drop off and find a bearer who really knows the meaning of Power? see - thats whats bugging me

OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer? Seems to me if you take this route, then the ring's desire is to simply be wielded, by whom it doesnt matter, apparantly. The ring is itself. Sounds like Sauron didnt make a ring, he had a baby... OK seriously - Too many open questions for me.

All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring. If anything, the ring effects pathological possesiveness and corruption, but by it's design, and the bearer's souls becoming corrupted by it is an affect of that power. Its an elegant design, sophisticated, technologically superior, imbibed with the power of a Maia, but it's just a power tool IMHO.

Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read.

ugh - file this one under "balrogs wings" I mumble, as I retreat back under my rock and read the next chapter

[Kuruharan]

um,mm having too much fun w/Bilbo to drop off and find a bearer who really knows the meaning of Power? see - thats whats bugging me

Ultimately, it wanted to return to its master, not just any crumb bum. You could hardly expect it to start announcing itself to Gandalf. That wouldn't have done at all.

OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer?

Well, obviously, as is stated a number of times, the Ring wants to get back to Sauron. It is an old part of Sauron that wants to be with the rest of him again.

All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring.

In what way? Isildur chopped the Ring. The Ring got Isildur killed (note especially how in the Gladden Fields section of the UT the Ring "was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid."). Unfortunately, since the Ring was just a ring, it did not have a whole lot of control over where the body hit the deck (or in this case the drink). It takes awhile for something to happen. Unfortunately, when it does, it is rescued by a hobbitish creature who (while certainly an unpleasant person) is in some ways resistant to the pull of the Ring. It may also have taken the Ring a long time to decide that Gollum would ultimately be of no use to it. When it abandons Gollum it is picked up by...another hobbit! (Imagine the Ring's frustration...) This other hobbit travels in the company of this dangerous and unpleasant wizard and the hobbit won't wear the Ring that much. Then when the wizard leaves they are tromping through this forest on an elf (shudder) path, and the hobbit is not giving the Ring a chance to pop off. When Bilbo does put the Ring on he is in danger of being eaten by spiders and probably has his fingers curled around Sting so the Ring can't work its way off. Then the next time Bilbo wears the Ring for a long period of time they are in an elf (shudder) kingdom. That would be the last place the Ring would want to abandon Bilbo. By the time Bilbo gets out of the Woodland Realm, Sauron is hightailing it eastwards and the Ring probably figures "why bother, better to just lay low for a bit."

Many years pass.

Sauron has returned to Mordor and Bilbo is about to go off into the Wild. This is perfect!

Oh crrrap! That silly wizard intervened and now I'm still stuck here and this new hobbit won't use me at all.

And so on and so on...

I imagine there is a lot of fodder for a “Very Secret Diary of the Ring” here if one wanted to press matters.

Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read.

I see no reason to think that the Ring was not sentient and, in fact, have a body of textual references to back my point. And so we are now back at the bottom of post 48.

[lathspell]

What exactly was its 'program'?

I centainly don't know. I believe the Ring to be sentient, so why should the Ring be programmed?

Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there.

Interesting, but I don't believe they were sentient. I believe these things to be programmed. Neither the Silent Watchers, nor the Troll's Purse had an ability like the Ring do something when it decided to do it. The Silent Watchers stood there at the gate and when someone tried to enter they held him back. There no more to it.
The Troll's purse had an antitheft device... when someone tried to grip it which wasn't the owner (or how do we know: not Troll?) it alarmed the owner.

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

Ah, perhaps your right. I wondered wether Gollum was gay (calling the Ring 'his precious'), but not I understand he knew the Ring to be female.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis

The Ring is conscious, the Ring isn't conscious. It's both, and neither. That's in terms of finding concrete evidence in the text in any case. Characters seem to speak of the Ring having a 'will' or a 'mind' but events don't necessarily bear this out.

What I think is happening is that Tolkien chose to build in to the text an object which would appear all the more powerful for being enigmatic. That some characters believe the Ring has a 'will' suggests this is the general accepted view in Middle-earth that it has a 'will'; the Ring has an evil reputation. But just how far, if at all, does it have 'will'? Is this simply the fear of the characters? Is it them attempting to express the ineffable? The latter could be true - Gandalf seems to fail to find words to adequately convey to Frodo what the exact peril is, so has to express this in terms of anthropomorphising the Ring. As an approach, its not wrong; people are terrified of this thing.

I actually don't want to know whether the Ring is one or the other, as it's far more fascinating it being this engima, and besides, it's fun to argue the possibilities.

[drigel]

It is fun. My problem apparantly is that I just need to know when to stop debating (sorry).

Sentient or not, I find the idea of evil being trapped or manifested in an object much more interesting to ponder.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by drigel

Sentient or not, I find the idea of evil being trapped or manifested in an object much more interesting to ponder.

What about the possibility of Good being trapped inside an evil object or inside an object made to serve evil? That's one possibility that's entered my active imagination, especially in terms of the Watchers at Cirith Ungol...

[drigel]

Completely OT to this thread (of course), but you may be onto something there, Lal. Seeing that in all of Ea, it was corruption and not creation that was the path of the devil.

[davem]

Tried skimming this thread but couldn't find anything, so..

Its been mentioned on a couple of sites I've recently skimmed that the star Sam saw was actually Earendel.

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

This is incredibly significant. Sam looks up & sees the light of the Silmaril. & it brings him hope. Earendel is always a sign of hope, but it is almost like the thought that 'pierced him' comes directly from Earendel himself. Could this possibly be a case of Sanwe? Certainly the implication is that Earendel is involved in the Quest, if only from a distance. Now, in Shelob's Lair Frodo invokes Earendel:

Frodo gazed in wonder at this marvellous gift that he had so long carried, not guessing its full worth and potency. Seldom had he remembered it on the road, until they came to Morgul Vale, and never had he used it for fear of its revealing light. Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima! he cried, and knew not what he had spoken; for it seemed that another voice spoke through his, clear, untroubled by the foul air of the pit.

Slowly his hand went to his bosom, and slowly he held aloft the Phial of Galadriel. For a moment it glimmered, faint as a rising star struggling in heavy earthward mists, and then as its power waxed, and hope grew in Frodo's mind, it began to burn, and kindled to a silver flame, a minute heart of dazzling light, as though Earendil had himself come down from the high sunset paths with the last Silmaril upon his brow.

It seems that from that moment Earendel is an active presence in the Quest, & the light (& hope) of the Silmaril is with them. So, its not a 'general' hope that Sam experiences, but a very specific one. The 'light & high beauty' is not a vague reference to 'spiritual' things, but a very specific reference to Earendel & the Silmaril. Sauron may be victorious in the battle for all Sam knows, but he will never possess the Silmaril - the ultimate symbol of beauty, perfection & hope for Men will always remain.

[drigel]

query -
what is the literal translation of:

Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

?

hail earendil, of the star radiance?

[davem]

Originally Posted by drigel

query -
what is the literal translation of:

Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

?

hail earendil, of the star radiance?

My post cfrom the Shelob's Lair discussion.

[denethorthefirst]

In my opinion the Ring is not sentient and has no will of its own. It is a very powerful object that is somehow tied to its creator or is maybe even a part of him, nothing more, nothing less. Whenever someone speaks of its "will" this is meant metaphorically and not literally. The ring does not "choose" to leave other people and cannot manipulate them. However, in my opinion, the extraordinary power of this object does influence people and does seem to act like a powerful drug. It influences peoples consciousness (they can become powerful rulers, conquer middle-earth, etc.) but maybe also their subconsciousness in that they become less resistant towards Sauron (but that is speculation).