Let's learn Quenya on the Downs

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Thank you for explaining that, I do appreciate it. I am sorry for those mistakes, I hope it isn't too bothersome for you translating like that.

Not a problem at all; it's fun! The reason I've written "I would have said" is that my Quenya isn't perfect either. For instance:

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Also, here is a link to "mis", https://www.elfdict.com/wt/110751 .

That is an extremely useful word. It's hard to tell, but I think Eldamo doesn't include PE14 material, so right there is a gap in my "knowledge" (which is basically just reading, I have very little memorised).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I saw "ita" and brain matched it to the Quenya form of Idril, IIRC meaning something like "sparkling" or "shining". Here it means "which". Is there a similar sounding root that is used for Idril, or did I make that up?

You're quite right: there are two words "ita". One is a verb, to sparkle; the other is a conjuction formed from i + ta. You could parse it as "that there"; I preferred it over just "i" because I didn't want it confused with the definite article.

Another one for you to play with, featuring a dubious proper name and a double negative:

Ar silumë, equë Nanisáro, minya axanya len: quetë ar ala laláma!

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Alright, first is "Ar silumë,": And now,

Then "Equë Nanisáro,": Says Denethor,

Followed the by perplexing "Minya axanya len": His first rule to me:

After which comes "quetë ar ala laláma!": speak and grow unsound!

The last one was most confusing, as it doesn't make much sense after translating, but that is the best translation I could come to.

Anyway that would be: "And now, says Denethor, his first rule to me: speak and grow unsound!"

I expect that is not quite right, but I am at a loss for the correct answer.

[Huinesoron]

You're pretty close, actually. Let's have a look:

"equë" is a lovely weird verb. I often read it as "quoth" or "spake", but "said/says" is just as correct. What's interesting is that it has no tenses - so the English can be past or present.

Check your pronouns in the 'rule' clause. Also take a look at what "axan" can mean - it's a bit stronger than just a rule.

"ala" could mean 'grow', but in this case is the imperative of a different verb I already used in my version of your last answer. (I did say there was a double negative!)

'Unsound' is a literally correct translation of "laláma", but 'sound' here = noise, not solidity. There's a better word for "un-noisy".

hS

[Alassë Estel]

That was most helpful, thank you.

My second answer is: "And now, spake Denethor, her first command to me: speak and do not be silent!"

Is that correct?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

My second answer is: "And now, spake Denethor, her first command to me: speak and do not be silent!"

I'll say close enough.

‘And now,’ said Denethor, ‘my first command to you: speak and be not silent! Tell me your full tale, and see that you recall all that you can of Boromir, my son. Sit now and begin!’

You're still getting caught out by those pronouns. There's (uh... obviously) two of them in that clause:

minya axanya len

-nya is the possessive version of -n or -nye. Where -nye would need to be attached to a verb (Canyanye, "I command"), -nya attaches to a noun. Axan-nya is "my command". It's a bit complicated by the double N collapsing into one; my model for this was onya, onna-nya. It may be that *axannya would have been better.

Le- is... well, it's wrong is what it is. ^_^ I took it directly from an example of the dative, but didn't bothered to check if it was singular or plural "you". The correct word would by lyen, the polite version of "you", with a dative suffix - ie, "to you" or "for you". (We know Denethor would have used the polite form, because Tolkien wrote a whole thing about how Pippin didn't, and how that affected the Gondorian perception of him.)

Back to you!

hS

[Alassë Estel]

The pronouns are confusing. But as Gandalf might say "It is a comfort not to be mistaken at all points."

Now for the next one: "I cuvoitë oio ú estelinqua."

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

"I cuvoitë oio ú estelinqua."

I translated this quickly for sense a few days ago as "The faithless/treacherous are ever unfaithful/hopeless," which sounds close to a Tolkien quote, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe something from Gandalf? Maybe about Gollum? I haven't gotten any further than that.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

That is almost right.

The answer is: "The treacherous are ever distrustful." Said by Gandalf of Saruman in The Two Towers.

I found it a bit more difficult because there is not a word that means simply "trust".

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

That is almost right.

The answer is: "The treacherous are ever distrustful." Said by Gandalf of Saruman in The Two Towers.

I found it a bit more difficult because there is not a word that means simply "trust".

I cuvoitë: This is an adjective being used as a noun. Apparently you can do that (just like in English: "Ming the Merciless"); it seems the way you can tell it's happened is that they switch from adjective-plural to noun-plural forms, and are often plurals. This one should be too, so becomes I cuvoiti. If we were being particularly bitter about The Treacherous, we could call them I cuvoitelië, The Treacherous Folk, but that might be a bit unforgiving.

After that I'm not sure. It depends on how we read "distrustful" - is that a noun, "distrustful ones", or an adjective, "the distrustful treacherous"? I think you've structured the sentence the second way, so we'll go with that. You've correctly dropped "to be" and moved the adjective "ever distrustful" to the end to get that meaning.

oio: Absolutely the right word. There is an attested word Oiencarmë, where oi- is used as a prefix before a vowel, but given how stacked the rest of the sentence is it's probably best to keep it separate.

ú estelinqua: I think you're right that estel is the best word for trust we have; it's probably best translated "faith", which ultimately is what Gandalf means. (amdir might be better, but is only known in Sindarin.) -inqua looks pretty good too; the attested examples use it to turn "one" into "alone", and "glory" into "glorious", so "trust" to "trusting" works. I think ú as an independent particle would imply "without trustworthiness"; there are examples ú+ópa = úpa, ú+Amanyar = Úmanyar, so I think you'd want ústelinqua as the final adjective

My final version of your quote would then be: I cuvoiti oio ústelinqua, which is only two vowels and a sapce off from what you had. Nice!

I'll try and come up with something in the next few days, unless someone else wants a go.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Alright.

Thank you for the nice, clear explaintions!

[Huinesoron]

Here we go:

Ar lendes lá, ar tassë né malina cala, ar ruinë mi; ar i undóma mat férima, ar nésë horina.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

First is Ar lendes lá. That sounds beautiful. But I am not immediately sure what it means as there are some conflicting definitions, so I'll have to rely on context.

Ar tassë né malina cala is "and there was yellow light".

Ar ruinë mi; ar i undóma mat férima seems to be "and fire within; and the twilight eats all available"

It ends with ar nésa horina. "and a sister compelled" All my sources agree that nésa means "sister", and compelled/impelled is the only definition I can find for horina

So, after all that I think the answer is something like: And she came not, and there was yellow light, and fire within, and the twilight ate all available, and a sister compelled.

It doesn't quite make sense, nor does it resemble any quote I am familiar with, but I am sure that I've missed something or another.

[Huinesoron]

Not quite; you've got a big chunk in the middle exactly right, but went a bit wrong at the ends.

-s: the third person pronoun; it can be he, she, or it.

lá: you want a different meaning here. This word doesn't quite fit the quote, but it was the best I could find.

mat: decent guess with "eats", but as a basic verb mat- would always take an ending of some sort, even in the aorist tense. (A-stem verbs don't, but if it ends in a consonant, it needs something.) That indicates that this mat isn't a verb; it could be a dual noun (ma+t = "a pair of things"), but in this case it's just a noun.

nésë: nésa would be sister, but I said nésë. This is an attested form, but I could equally have used nés, or apparently nánes(ë).

horina: I think you might have correctly identified this as a passive participle, but gotten the wrong verb; this is hora-, not horya-

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Right then.

After taking into account everything you noted, my second answer is:

"And he went beyond, and there was yellow light, and fire within, and the evening meal ready, and a youth waited."

It certainly makes more sense now, though I still find that I cannot place the quote. Perhaps it is from Frodo and Sam's stay at Henneth Annûn? Or maybe it is from Pippin's experience in Minas Tirith, the youth being Bergil. At any rate, I feel that the translation is closer.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Right then.

After taking into account everything you noted, my second answer is:

"And he went beyond, and there was yellow light, and fire within, and the evening meal ready, and a youth waited."

It certainly makes more sense now, though I still find that I cannot place the quote. Perhaps it is from Frodo and Sam's stay at Henneth Annûn? Or maybe it is from Pippin's experience in Minas Tirith, the youth being Bergil. At any rate, I feel that the translation is closer.

Pretty close! Here's the actual quote:

Originally Posted by RotK

But Sam turned to Bywater, and so came back up the Hill, as day was ending once more. And he went on, and there was yellow light, and fire within; and the evening meal was ready, and he was expected. And Rose drew him in, and set him in his chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap.

He drew a deep breath. ‘Well, I’m back,’ he said.

(Yet another instance of Rosie's prophetic talent, by the way; she knew when he was coming back from the Quest, too.)

I couldn't find a good word for "onwards"; as he's travelling past the point last described, I settled on "beyond". And the "was" is pretty optional, so I skipped it.

That last clause was a real problem though, wasn't it?

ar nésë horina

ar is obvious, it's just an "and".

nésë was a bad choice on my part: it's an attested form for "he was" (see here, about halfway down the table) but it collides with too many other words. I could have used náne+s, but it would have been simpler just to use the emphatic pronoun isse and leave the "was" out entirely.

horina is the passive participle of hora-, to wait for (yes, a middle Quenya form). The participles give me a bit of a headache, but I think the difference is that an active participle is the state you're in when you're doing the verb ("A waiting wife"), while the passive participle is the state you're in when it's being done to you ("an awaited husband"). It's difficult in English, because the active participle looks and often acts identically to the present tense: "an eating man" is just a man who is eating, right? But no, that's a completely different grammatical form that just happens to look the same.

Anyway, that's my rant on participles. Over to you!

hS

[Alassë Estel]

That was a bit hard. But it was educational too, so I won't feel too bad about not getting it correct.

Here is my sentence for you: Áva lala se cuita ango.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

That was a bit hard. But it was educational too, so I won't feel too bad about not getting it correct.

Here is my sentence for you: Áva lala se cuita ango.

It's been a while, but I'll give this a stab.

First thought: "Do not [verb] this [noun] of iron," with lala being related to Lalaith, Turin's sister (something to do with singing?).

Now checking: lala- is "to laugh". Se is not... whatever sort of word "this" would be, but is either a pronoun (he/she/it) or a word "at, in". Hmmm... an idea occurs. Cuita is from the verb "to live", so I'm pretty confident, but let's check... there we go, ango is an outdated word for a dragon.

"Never laugh at live dragons (Bilbo, you fool)!"

Pretty good! Your first three words look spot on. Eldamo prefers coita- to cuita- for "to live". In either case, this time we need the active participle "living", which we can get by adding -ila. I would also probably prefer the later word föalócë for "dragon", so I end up with:

Áva lala se coitaila föalócë!

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Yes! That's it!

That means it's your turn, if you're up for it. If don't want to keep going back and forth, it won't offend me or anything. But I am ready if you have another one.

[Huinesoron]

I'm happy to keep going; it's just been a bit of a month.

Mélamar cata, Ambar epë, ar na tieli telconta.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Okay, great! I don't mind waiting, I just don't want you to feel that you must continue if you'd rather not.

And my answer is "Home is behind, the World ahead, and there are many paths to tread."

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Okay, great! I don't mind waiting, I just don't want you to feel that you must continue if you'd rather not.

And my answer is "Home is behind, the World ahead, and there are many paths to tread."

Spot on! I really wanted to swap the first two clauses round to maintain the rhyme, but I decided it would confuse the translation.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Great!

Here is the next one: Nyariën náne imnianna. Haimo i yára: tyavilto i ansaila quén har quetanna.

Hopefully that's all in order. I had to use substitutes for one or two words, but it should be very close.