Female Orcs?

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

No right back at you.

<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

They were made of stone.
QS is very clear on this point.

</p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

Since you doubt me and my obligatory comment to stay on topic, which was very naughty of you to do without research:

Quenta
c. 1930
The Shaping of Middle-earth p. 82
&quot;The hordes of Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts were of hatred.&quot;

Quenta Silmarillion
c. 1937-38 revisions
The Lost Road and Other Writings p. 233
&quot;These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.&quot;

Tell me again when The Hobbit or There and Back Again was written, and why they aren't made of stone as I said they were, and which you corrected.

Please, thank you and whatever else will get an answer.

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[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

Well uh...

Gee!

In the last couple of years, I've never seen that comment or those citations! Everyone always referred to &quot;spawning&quot; or to various things Tolkien said (I think in his letters) regarding the social nature of Orcs.

First time I ever heard they were made of stone!

I certainly accept your citations. Hmmmmm. But if Tolkien DID later change his mind, then that might supercede his preceding notions.

It would fit with Trolls being made in mockery of Ents, and the statement in THE HOBBIT regarding trolls being made of stone and such. Why not use the same manufacturing process with orcs?

I must leave it to the more knowing to reconcile the matter!

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[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I certainly accept your citations. Hmmmmm. But if Tolkien DID later change his mind, then that might supercede his preceding notions.<hr></blockquote>
Is that about the Orcs from slime c. 1917-1930, Orcs from stone c. 1930-1951, Orcs as a spawn of the earth, or as believed by the wise in Valinor; possibly corrupted Elves c. 1952-1955, Orcs as corruted Elves c. 1955-1957, the probability of an Elvish strain in the Orcs c. 1958-1960, or the even later Orcs as corrupted Men c. 1960-?

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[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

A few ideas folk,
It should be assumed that Orcs breed because:
A) They were able to breed with Dunlendings to create
Half-Orcs, Neccessitating some compatible form of
reproduction.
B) They would need some method of reproducing without
the aid of Magic or Divine Power as they flourished,
even though Morgoth was imprisoned.
C) It seems a pretty common theme in all of Tolkien's works
that all his Races of people and creatures bred in the
standard human fashion(though I can't really explain
Trolls or Dragons as there is no reference to their
breeding)
All in all, If I was a great corruptor of Divine creations I would mock all aspects, perhaps when creating Orcs Morgoth
made sure there were both male and female?
Cheers

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

but it just doesn't seem right <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[HerenIstarion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy, jallanite, Aiwendil, or any who may have concern

Since this topic has it's main concern with orcs, I will ask a question answer to which I once knew, but I've forgotten it. In first age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where. Maybe if you remember, it will be very kind of you, for I (oh, shame on me <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) even asked this as a question in trivia, and than, as nobody answered for several weeks, totally forgot the answer myself

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[doug*platypus]

Dig, Dig, Snuffle, Snuffle, Snort, Snort, OOH! Look at this thread!

For a warrior- and slave-race, whose sole existence should be blasphemous, the beauty of distinct sexes seems less appropriate than asexual reproduction, or hermaphroditic creatures.

I'd have to say that you bring up a good point, Sharkey, and convince me 100% in the opposite direction. If they were hermaphroditic, then all would have been breeders, which would inconvenience the armies no end, I'm sure.

Hobbitus Emeritus seems to give a horribly accurate picture of the Life Cycle of the Female Orc, showing how they would be used if they existed. I think they do exist, in exactly the same way that Dwarf-women do, and that the role of the female is an important comment on what both these races were like. Warlike and insensitive, almost pure Yang/male energy, without the necessary balance. Eventually these races died out, and Men, who were a little more progressive in their attitudes, inherited the earth. The Ents and the Entwives is another (pretty weird) story entirely.

[doug*platypus]

Oh, one more thing.

I don't buy PJ's "pods" theory.

Very wise, Mithadan! There's many PJisms I don't buy, but so long as movie tickets isn't one of them I guess New Line won't mind too much. Peter and bespectacled Weta guy whose name I can't remember often use the phrase "genetically engineered". This is a hot topic in New Zealand, and the world at the moment. Saruman using 'genetic engineering' is a very modern concept which I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't have had any inkling of, and is basically a tool to add some applicability to the modern world. Can't really blame them for that. The Island of Dr Moreau by H.G. Wells is pretty cool, and may be a bit more of an appropriate background to Tolkien's world.

[Bêthberry]

Hmm. A couple of points:

... perhaps they were "dedicated breeders," constantly pregnant, giving birth, or becoming pregnant.

Now just how many children did Rosie Cotton Gamgee bear, as one of the Free Peoples? A baker's dozen, wasn't it?

I think they do exist, in exactly the same way that Dwarf-women do, and that the role of the female is an important comment on what both these races were like. Warlike and insensitive, almost pure Yang/male energy, without the necessary balance.

This comparison between dwarves and orcs greatly overstates any superficial similarity. Dwarves were neither warlike nor insensitive, and were, in fact, more immune to the effects of the rings than any other race. They were children of Aule, after all, and not Melkor, they appreciate beauty and creating things, and are said to have a role in rebuilding Arda after the final fall.

Bethberry

[Nibinlondwen]

To answer your question, no I dont think that there were and female orcs.
Tolkien wrote the books and he alsow created the orcs. I dont know why, but some parts he left out. but it sounds crazy to me to say something like "and the orc-man took the orc-woman's hand and kissed her lips"
You have seen the film have you not?
well, you saw how the uruk-hais were born if you did, that is how peter jackson thought it would be. and honestly. By my oppinion, there SHOULD be female orcs. Both Melkor ens Sauron took women and men of the elven breed and made the orcs. so did the femail-elves turn into men? Am i wrong?
I dunno, but maybe this doesnt make sense. But think about it and make a oppinion of yours. cuz tolkien is dead and cant explain anymore. so its up to all and themselves to belive as they want.

thanks for reading.

[Bekah]

According to the Silmarillion (which as we all know isn't very accurate), the orcs were mutilated elves. It goes on to say that the orcs still bred like the First-born (aka elves). This was the deed that Iluvatar hated the most.

[Finwe]

I agree with Bekah. I don't think that Morgoth would have "created" or mutilated a species that would have spawned. He wanted to hurt Iluvatar. That was why he probably left female attributes on some Orcs. The thought of a race that ugly and horrible reproducing like the Elves, who were so beautiful and noble, is enough to make anyone sick.

[Burzdol]

What of there is now difference between male and female. The could look just the same, fight the same, and even act the same. They would still be a different sex though, right?

[Finwe]

That's true. Perhaps they resemble the Dwarves to some degree. You can never tell the females apart from the males, and frankly, I don't think I'd want to.

[Bekah]

Just to lighten the mood - has anyone read Terry Pratchet books?

Particularly the one about Cheery/ Cheri Littlebottom? I forget what it's called. Anyway, the female dwarves are very hard to distinguish from male dwarves, until Cheery decides to change her name and wear skirts and lipstick and earrings.

Carry on with the orcs, though...