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#41 | ||||||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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#42 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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BoT-04: you should take up "wrought" as well, as in your version the phrase has no verb. Otherwise agreed.
BoT-06c: I like this better, personally, ![]() BoT-08.5: I am fine with omitting it, I just wanted to see the reasoning. BoT-13b: Your version may actually be preferred, looking again. The version Fin made used bits from the next chapter, and seems choppy, so the simplicity of your version seems better to me. BoT-15.1: Maybe just leaves instead of flowers? Finally made it to page 2! |
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#43 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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BoT-04: You're right - I copied and pasted less than I meant to.
BoT-15.1: It is curious that AAm has birds and flowers apparently existing during the age of the Lamps, while Ainulindale D as corrected says that they did not. But maybe that change to the Ainulindale post-dates those sections of AAm. Anyway, I'm skeptical about substituting "leaves". It seems like too great a liberty, and is a very different image from the flowers. I'd still rather remove it. |
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#44 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Actually, looking into BoT-15.1 further, I may have found the solution.
In AAm* (and in at least one emendation to the full AAm), Tulkas's wife becomes, instead of Nessa, the newly introduced 'Lëa the Young', a Maia. I had noticed this, but ignored it because the Valaquenta, which postdates AAm*, again has Nessa as his spouse and no mention of Lëa . However, in ignoring these changes I overlooked this: Quote:
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Last edited by Aiwendil; 11-01-2017 at 06:04 PM. |
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#45 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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That is perfect!
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#46 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I know is very repetitive, but I have no time to rewiew all the posts in this thread and in the thread of chapter two. I'm very oxidized in following the threads. I was comparing the drafts of Aiwendil and Findegil and I'm a bit confused because it seems that the first part of the chapter contains parts that I used to compose the Ainulindale and the last part is included by me in the Chapter of Valinor.
If it is no too laborious and you are agree, it would be helpful for me to have an updated text of the chapters in a new post that can print and compare quietly and easily with mine to give my opinion on the structure (only) pitily I will not can give texts edited by me. Now, retranslate would be very painful. Thanks and greetings. |
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#47 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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BoT-03: “fields of Aman” to “fields of Arda”: Why? It is a change from specific to unspecific. So why should the new comers of the Manwë party not decent into Arda first in the fields of Aman?
BoT-03.5: I propose to add a bit from LT here: Quote:
BoT-08.5: The detail that this would add is small. And fro reasons of safety which Aiwendil explained I agree to omit it. BoT-13b: Sorry Aiwendil, but I am not happy with you arrangement. Yes AAm should be preferred to avoid to much chopping up of the texts, but in this passages other sources have fuller accounts. The things they add might not be to very substantial but this phase of the story of Middle-earth is reported sparingly enough, so that I would like to include even tiny details. What about: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#48 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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BoT-03.5: I think Findegil's suggestion to use the Lost Tales passage here is good. However, I would then delete the phrase "lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered", since exactly this motivation is made clear immediately after in the quote by Manwe: Quote:
BoT-13b: OK, I agree that there are some small details here that were missed in my version, and I think your suggestion is good. BoT-13.7, -13.8: I see the appeal of the idea here, but for me taking the words of Melko and giving them to Ulmo is going a bit too far. |
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#49 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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everything looks good.
BoT-13.7, -13.8: It cannot be Ulmo who says it, bc the next sentence says "In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" The way this is constructed it cannot be attributed to anyone besides Melkor without quite seeming to fit. The imagery of Ulmo being alone in the deep is also given later, in the next chapter, so we dont need to repeat it here. As for the second addition, I like it and I think it is in line with the later idea, minus the promises of Melkor. I would change Quote:
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#50 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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BoT-13.7, BoT-13.8: Okay, I see that Ulmo in the role of Melkor arguing for the split is to risky. But what about this:
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Findegil |
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#51 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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hmmm this looks fine to me. I have a few grammatical and other minor suggestions:
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Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-05-2017 at 12:14 PM. |
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#52 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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BoT-13.7, -13.8: I'm still having some problems with this passage. Ascribing Melko's duplicitous counsel to a vague 'some of the Valar' is perhaps better than ascribing it to Ulmo, but still seems rather risky to me. On the other hand, I do suppose we know that some of the Valar must have preferred to head off on their own. But if we are to take the passage, I would edit it down more significantly:
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- The "covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" must, I think, go. This is Melko subtly trying to stir dissent among the Valar; but now we must assume that the Valar who argue that all should separate are doing so in good faith. - Similarly, the contrast of those who "took his word in faith" and those who "distrusted" must go. These again depend on the fact that Melko was indeed dissembling and was untrustworthy. With the argument instead ascribed to other Valar, it should go without saying that their words are taken in faith; the others disagree not because they distrust but because they think it is better to remain together. - From the context in the Lost Tales, it's clear that the "Shadowy Seas" are indeed those near Valinor. But these must go since now they are not shadowy until the Hiding of Valinor. - Instead of distorting the bit about Aule and Yavanna not trusting Melkor, I would rather just remove that phrase. The passage still works without it. - Melkor is now more powerful than Manwe, so we must remove "save Manwe only". The passage itself seems reasonable to me if we make those changes. However, I still don't like the fact that it breaks up LQ, separating the description of the blending of the lights from the statement that the Valar made their home in that region. At the very least, we must somehow still include the fact that Almaren was in the region where the lights blended. |
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#53 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Well, Im going start bit a bit.
With this last passage you are discussing, in general terms I'm agree with Aiwendil. I took the decision of give the text more general sense: ... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar were of the opinion] {counsel} that each of {the Valar} them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. {In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo,} {but}And of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would [agreed] {use his advice}, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementari], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils {and trusted his promises not at all}[,were of the opinion] that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest he take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And there [where the light of both the Lamps met and blended,] upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ... The sintaxis I left for you. Perhaps now in this time Manwë and Melkor were equal and the Valar knew It? "where the light of both the Lamps met and blended." I think It should be repeated because Almaren was builded there. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 11-05-2017 at 04:13 PM. |
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#54 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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We could take up BoT-15 a bit earlier:
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#55 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I like that solution a lot. I think my concerns about the passage are all addressed with Findegil's last post.
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#56 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have a minor point: Should the term Outer Lands be used? or should it not be changed to Middle-earth, to avoid the confusion of what is meant?
also I think Fin's "were" addition in the 15b sentence should be "where" and should come before the comma. Aside from that, I think it looks great! |
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#57 | ||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Last edited by Aiwendil; 11-05-2017 at 09:13 PM. |
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#58 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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It looks to me that we have resolved all of our points of contention for this chapter. Should we label it as semi-finished?
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#59 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I agree with the solution of Findegil in15b. For me thats well.
Greetings |
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#60 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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I see as well no open points any longer. But I have again found something that might be added:
- We missed the information which colure was used for which Lamp so fare. We could add it in this way: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil P.S.: If we all agree on this, the chapter would be finished instead of semi-finished. Last edited by Findegil; 11-06-2017 at 01:37 PM. |
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#61 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I like both of these additions.
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#62 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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BoT-13.6, -13.7: I'm fine with this; based on the names of the Lamps ('sky-blue' and 'high-gold') I think we can be confident that the colours of the Lamps remain distinguished, even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned after the Lost Tales.
BoT-21.5: I'm less sure about this. The phrase "in the confusion of darkness" is very similar to the phrase "in the confusion and the darkness" that comes just a few sentences later. And it does seem repetitive to say first that Melkor "roused the seas" and a sentence later that the "seas arose in tumult". And since we already know that Almaren is destroyed, I don't see that this adds much. |
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#63 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Perhaps:
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#64 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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BoT:
BoT-21.5: I can see your concerns, Aiwendil. What about taking the info I want from an older source: Quote:
Findegil |
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#65 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I am personally hesitant about this, because there is no pressing need to add it thus, for it removes the essential factor that formed your reason for the inclusion: an express attack of Melkor upon Almaren. In addition, the Isle of Almaren is not in the Sea, so the sea cannot rise up and flood it. It was in the Great Lake.
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#66 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I'm agreed with BoT 13 additions, more or less is what i had done.
In the case of BoT 21 I think is not necessary the add, I think is inherent with the great cataclysm described the destruction of Almaren. Greetings |
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#67 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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BoT-21.5: If we go with this at all, I would prefer Findegil's last proposal, which I think is minimally disruptive to the text.
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#68 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay, if all of you feel that it is not necessary we will skip BoT-21.5.
I think with that all open points are cleared, right? Respectfully Findegil |
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#69 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I agree, it looks like this chapter is done!
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#70 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Apologies for reopening this chapter, but in rereading the MT text about Varda and the stars, I think there it is better to break it up and insert it than to use it in its entirety later on. The first part has a section we can use here:
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#71 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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BoT-02.7: I am not sure that this the right place for this insert. But for the moment I did not find any better.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#72 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Is there any mention of the First War as such (with capital letters and all) in any of Tolkien's writings other than the published Silmarillion?
Genuinely curious - I've searched far and wide and couldn't find any such term: sure, there definitely was a 'war' between Melkor and the Valar before the coming of Tulkas, but was it actually called the 'First War'?
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#73 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I don't think so either. But in MT II Tolkien used 'the First Battle' to name the strife in which Tulkas came to Arda.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#74 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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You're right - 'First Battle' occurs all over MR, and as such I think it should be adopted instead of the 'First War', unless someone else knows a later source for the term.
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#75 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Did I miss something? As fare as I can find we used the term 'first war' (without capitals) only in two place in our editing.
First it has the qualifier 'the first war of the West upon the North' and names the campain of the Valar against Utumno after the awekening of the Elves. Second is with the qualifier 'the first War with Sauron' and means the attack of Sauron on Ost-in-edhil and deafet by the Elves and Numenoreans that follwed. Other wise it is used with captitals in two places in my darft for the appendices. Where it is used for the strife under discussion here. In that part I am willing to change it without question. Respectfully Findegil |
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#76 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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#77 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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#78 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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That was exactly my question (may be put a bit strange). Because the phrase 'First War' was not used in our texts other then what I mentioned in my last post. Thus never in the narative for the strife with Melkor in which Tulkas came and Melkor feld from Arda.
Respectfully Findegil |
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