![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#41 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
VE-02: I'm not sure that these additions are necessary/justified. Clearly the only reason for embellishing the paragraph found in Q would be for the sake of including greater detail; there is no canonical issue. That doesn't mean that we can't add the material, but we must weigh the value of the added detail against the motivation to preserve Tolkien's words as well as possible.
VE-04: I don't think I see the justification for replacing the first clause of this paragraph with the QS77 version. VE-05: It seems a little awkward to put the Lost Tales outline material here, immediately following the paragraph on Ulmo in Valinor. It seems to take us very abruptly from Valinor to the Havens. Maybe I'm over-analyzing though; it's possible that it only seems abrupt here since it is already obvious to us that the text is an addition from elsewhere. VE-07: This sections's a bit choppy, but I suppose that's just a result of its origins in the Lost Tales outlines. VE-08: The reference to the slaying of Ungoliant must be removed. There should also be a paragraph break before "Vingelot he built . . ." Actually, it looks to me like all paragraph breaks have been suppressed in these emendations. They'll obviously have to be reinserted at some point. Also, I think it should be "Vingilot" rather than "Vingelot". I'll have to check the later HoMe volumes to be sure. VE-11: It should be noted that toward the beginning of this section, with the words "And they looked upon the Lonely Isle" we switch from Q30 as the base text to QS37. VE-14: We need to think about "Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, which he had worn aforetime". Are we going to follow the story found in MT where Morgoth falsely repented? The question of course does not really concern the Earendil chapter; it concerns "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor", and whether it is to be considered merely a proposed change or whether it is one that we can legitimately work in. VE-17: Why is "and the light before the Sun and the Moon" deleted? VE-18: I suppose that "{Gnomes} [Teleri]" here must be an error for "{Gnomes} [Noldor]". VE-20: The insertions from MT do not work as written; they are in a suddenly very different, more colloquial, style. I'm not sure that they are really needed; they would only add detail; they do not establish a new story or correct an obselete point. VE-21: We need to think about the second prophecy of Mandos. There is an old thread concerning it which might be revived. VE-22: I think this is an error; it is redundant with VE-23. VE-23: I would actually rather not follow CRT in using the end of the Valaquenta here. I would suggest simply: Quote:
Pengelod, thanks for the summary. However, I would really like to avoid changing the numbering of the emendations on this project (it caused a lot of confusion for me on FoG). I have stuck with the original numbering - I think the numbers are spaced a bit too far apart, but I would prefer to be consistent. I don't really see the point of either of the "appendices", quite frankly. I don't see a need to include Bilbo's song, and I don't see why the second prophecy of Mandos should be split off from the body of the text. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 | ||||||||||||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I want to bring up this: Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 | |||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
All quotes are from Maedhros's last post.
VE-02 Quote:
Quote:
VE-02 Quote:
VE-05 Quote:
VE-07 Quote:
VE-14 Quote:
VE-20 Quote:
VE-18 Quote:
A while back, you wrote: Quote:
|
|||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#44 | |||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 | ||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for not creating the most complete Silmarillion that we can - we didn't add any fragments from II to the the later Tuor; we didn't add material from the Glorfindel essays to the battle with the Balrog; we didn't add anything from the Lost Tales to the Ainulindale or Valaquenta. It's not a very clear matter in my mind, though, and I'll think about it. Quote:
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nulukkhizdīn
Posts: 41
![]() |
Quote:
I still believe the paragraph order in QS77 is far superior. Maybe it was just haste in composition that made Tolkien order it that way, but it was a wise editorial move to correct it. I think we should follow that lead. Pengoloð kicks *** for putting this together.
__________________
Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#47 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
VE-02: I don't see a problem with the additions from AB2. They are taken in to add some detail but that we would need such additions in this chapter was clear from the start. Other wise the break between FoG and FoD would be unbearable. I can see the problem with Q77. They have no as fare as I am aware of no direct source in the writings of JRR Tolkien, and some are only variants of wording which we should aviode. This applies also to VE-04.
VE-05: Could it be an alternativ to switch the §§? In the Moment we have: The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; the tale of Eärendils youth; Tour's depature. If we take the additions from BoLT one § earlier that would give: The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; the tale of Eärendils youth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; Tour's depature. It is clear that between Eärendils youth and Tour's depature some time elapsed, thus the intrusion of Ulmo's visit to Valinor would fill that time gap in the narritive. VE-08: I am not very happy to lose the encounter with Ungoliant completly. It is clear that we can not say that he had slain her, but success full fight with the waever of darkness in the south was never gainsiad, as fare as I know (or do I overlook some fact here?). So couldn't we chang it like this: Quote:
VE-14: If we in the end come to the conclusion that Melkor was never chained with Angainor before than I would think that we should alter the sentence to: Quote:
VE-21: Yes, we should discuss the issue of the second phrophecy in that old thread. (I must really re-read it, to get back into that issue.) VE-23: I agree with Aiwendil here. Quote:
The Galadriel issue: I have a strong feeling that we should not deal with Galadriel situation if we can aviod it. If we do make it in the end through all the First Age stuff and come to the Second Age we must of course incooperate Of Galadiel and Celeborn but we should not make any decission before that time, and even if RGEO is cannon, we should aviod pointing at it here. What is justified from RGEO is to alter the sentence as followes: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#48 | ||||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 364
![]() |
VE-5:
TE-E {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {hears} [heard] a great song swelling from the sea as {Tur} [Tuor]'s skiff {dips} [dipped] over the world's rim. {His} [Great was his] passion of tears upon the shore.*\ {, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song Dipped over the worlds rim. Round Earth... ![]()
__________________
Tar-Elenion |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 | |||||||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Findegil wrote:
Quote:
I'm torn on the issue of the additions from AB2. Yes, they were written by Tolkien. But to what extent can we just take a sentence from here, a sentence from there, and splice them all together? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps instead we could use: Quote:
Maedhros wrote: Quote:
I think it's altogether different from the MT text. That text was an analysis of the work; the name-list is not. And, critically, the MT passage in question does not contain any information not already in the text; it only analyzes the Valar's actions. The name-list, on the other hand, is the only source for those plot points. Quote:
Quote:
Tar Elenion wrote: Quote:
Quote:
Good to see you, T-E. Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-24-2004 at 11:25 AM. |
|||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#51 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But this is my picture and clearly not "cannon". Quote:
Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 05-21-2004 at 02:27 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
So I will postpone that just for a § in my post to address first your concerns. As fare as the project had come we have behaved very different. In FoG we did use nearly any bit of writing we could find to update a very old basic text. In The Ainulindale and The Valaquenta we did nearly the opposite: we did consider the texts as they stood as a final version and did restrict our editing to very minor points much more often resulting in passages taken out than in additions to the text. The difference was in part caused by the kind of text we used as basic. For the later two texts the basis was a version of the narrative prepared by Tolkien for a planed publication together with LotR. In the case of FoG it was text prepared for a public reading early in the 1920th. We have as jet not discussed FoD, but Maedhros and I did use a wide range of texts to create our versions of that chapter and we didn't heard as jet any comment that would suggest that we shouldn't do so in the end. For FoD and for The Tale of Eärendil (and also for the later part of FoG) the LQ2 typescript is the last textual version Tolkien "produced", that we have. Now we are dealing with a text based on a dull copy made when Tolkien thought to secure any written stuff and looked over by him in a very curios way. If the project way back when dealing with the transition from the later Tour to the battle about Gondolin decided not to take LQ2 as the ultima ratio, than I can't see any good reason why we should do in this chapter! It is one thing to restrict our self when dealing with a text that Tolkien himself sought of as part of a more or less updated version of his planed Silmarillion, but does anybody think he regarded the last chapters of the LQ2 series as such? Now for what I called my cat in the sack: Early in this thread we did neglect the Bilbos Eärendil was a mariner. Petty Dwarf and I did think of addition form LT2 But none of us did endeavour to add them to the passage of Eärendils journey. After an analysis of the sources I will at long last give that editing a go. It might be entirely or in part rejected in the end but I find it at least worth a try. At first I like to say that acording to The Tale of the Years Eärendils voyages lasted 4 years. Second: During my reading I found that one of the later works Tolkien did on the story of Eärendil was a revision (which he himself dated hesitatingly to 1940) of the poem The Happy Mariners. That did support me in including material of LT2 including this very poem. 1940 is about the time when Tolkien did work also at Eärendil was a mariner. Quote:
Quote:
Next on my agenda are additions to the description of the war of warth. Respectfully Findegil Edited: I just changed the format to bring it more in accordens with our "rules". Last edited by Findegil; 05-24-2004 at 02:13 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 | ||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Her we go again. I will try to add some info on the War of Wrath or the Last and Terible Battle of Beleriand. Fist of all: What I give is based on a article I did some time ago for “Der Bote von Gondor”, which is the free e-mail fanzine of Tolkiens-Welt.de. The text was in its original form meant as a description how Bilbo found in the archives of Imladris the answer to the imagined question: How did the War of Wrath proceed? But I have eliminated the fan-fictional elements. First of all I will give a collection of the sources used:
The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: [I]Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings[I]; chapter VI: Quenta Silmarillion with the emendations given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 2: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters. This is our basic text. If I shift passages around I will mark them BT for Basic-Text. In addition we have a very late source Unfinished Tales; Part 4; chapter II: The Istari (UT). It is given in full in my summary. Let’s go next to the many Annals which retell the events in short. The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 3: The Wanderings of Húrin and other writings not forming part of The Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V. The Tale of the Years (I will go with the entries with all changes made to them in the last stage called D by Christopher Tolkien, as fare as D goes thereafter C respectively B is given) (TY) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In the year 542 Eärendil reached Valinor. Concerning the action taken by the Elder King it is told: “Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.” “Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingwe [and Ingwion son of Ingwe was their chief]; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Finraphin son of Finwë was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but Elwing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her father's side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.” For the year 547 it is told: “Here the host of Fionwe was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of {Eglorest}[Eglarest], where {Ingwiel}[Ingwion] son of Ingwe, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.” It seems that Eönwë followed: “But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.” That does sound like “the {Gods}[Maiar] and Elves release Men from Hithlum”. In an earlier Version it is even told that “all Hithlum was ablaze with its [Eönwës hosts] glory”. Also we have the statement: “And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Fathers of Men fought for Fionwe, and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo; for by {Earendel}[Eärendil] son of Tuor was help brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men were they strengthened on the fields of war. But most Men especially those new come out of the East, were on the side of the Enemy.” “Great war came now into Beleriand, and Fionwe drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field.” This fields beside Sirion are most likely the Talth Dirnen. From what happened to them, we can assume that the Maiar Noldorin with the host of the Noldor made a landing further south (Isle of Balar / Sirions mouth?) and “camp in the Land of Willows” [Nan-Tathren]. And we here from an “Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight [Aelin-uial]”. Thus we can assume that about 550 the state of affairs was as follows: “The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage.” [Which passages? There come to mind the Brithiach and caverns of the Tumultuous Winds, where Sirion dives Underground just after Aelin-uial. The secret bridge from Nivrim to Region would have been destroyed. I supposed.] In the autumn of a later year (let say 570) the Battle of Tasarinan [Nan-Tathren] was fought: “Noldorin and his Eldar come there [Nan-Tathren] seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it? Indeed sleeping and dancing here, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by {Melko}[Morgoth] from the Hills of Iron and Noldorin made bare escape thence.” “Noldorin escapes from the defeat of the Land of Willows and takes his harp and goes seeking in the Iron Mountains for Valwe and the Gnomes until he finds their place of imprisonment. Tulkas follows.” [It is unlikely that the Valar could restrict a character like Poldorea form taking part in the war action, even if he was not the leader; he is more a champion of warriors than a leader in battle anyway.] Thus we learn from The Lost Tales: “great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again {above the Pools of Twilight}, even where Tulkas' {after} fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoth Balrogs]. [That it could not be Melkor himself is clear from his behaviour in the later versions, but we can assume that this was a determining fight at the Twilit Pools, Why I take the Balrogs as replacement should become clear in the next §.] “{Fionwe}[Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed””, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth”, “and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Fionwe.” It must have been about the year 585 when it is told: “There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.[…] The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind” [That could only mean that Eönwë had to fight the passes into Anfauglith.] In 597 the state of affairs must have become very threatening for Morgoth: “Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air. So sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that Eönwë was driven back; for the coming of the dragons was with a great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire, and their wings were of steel. Then Earendel came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven, and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. And ere the rising of the sun Earendel slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and he cast him from the sky, and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim and they were broken and thrown down. Then the sun rose, and the {Children}[host] of the Valar prevailed, and all the dragons were destroyed, save two alone; and they fled into the East. Then all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of Eönwë descended into the deeps of the earth. And there Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor, [with] which he had {worn}[been threatened] aforetime; and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. But Eönwë took the two Silmarils which remained and guarded them. Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to nought; and out of the pits and deep prisons a multitude of thralls came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world all changed.” It is clear that not all of this can form part of our text, but I will now try to in cooperate what ever I can in the text. We start in the middle of VE-11: Quote:
VE-13.01: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
The Kinslayer
|
First, I want to say great work in bringing up those great quantity of details to the discussion. I would discuss them at a later post.
I think that this bring up a greater problem of what to and not to add in our version, depending of our source text. As Findegil has posted earlier, we have no rule as to how and when to add outside material to our work. We had no problem in adding when we used old base text, eg. The Fall of Gondolin, but we do have a problem when we dealt with the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta because the base text was very advanced in terms of when it was written. If it were up to me, I would try to add as much as possible while trying to maintain a sense of canon to our work. Can a specific set of rules can be made? I don't think so.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#55 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Note that in cases in FoG where we inserted pieces from secondary sources, those secondary sources were invariably later and were almost always used for the express purpose of correcting obselete elements of the story. Now in this section, LQ2 is the final text. But as far as LQ2 is uncertain (which is a matter to be dealt with in its own right), the final authoritative text must be QS. But even if we were to consider LQ wholly spurious, QS is still (apparently) later than AB2. So if we make additions from AB2, they are additions of a fundamentally different kind from the FoG additions - they are not from a later text, serving to correct obselete points. They are in fact from an earlier text. However - I'm still unsure. One other point is that in the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, part of the reason for not making additions was that we seemed to be considering these the veritable "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta". Clearly, we are not doing the same for the "Quenta Silmarillion". As for Bilbo's poem: I must say that I am against using pieces of it, for two reasons (aside from the general concern discussed above). First, I'm not so sure about using text from a complete and distinct work, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Second, we have no assurance at all of the accuracy of Bilbo's poem. As for the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl: it's certainly plausible to retain this element, though I think we need to carefully consider whether we are entirely justified in doing so. "The Happy Mariners" has some problems, I think. First, the "orient fire in many a hoarded spark" found in the "waters of the rumoured sun" doesn't seem to make any sense with respect to the established geography/cosmology. The other major problem is "Gondobar". It is difficult to understand why the name is used here, but in any case it is certain that for our purposes it refers to Gondolin. Concerning the War of Wrath: I must disagree about Noldorin and Tulkas. Noldorin is, as far as I can tell, only present in the Book of Lost Tales. There is no later account of his adventure in the Land of Willows . This in itself is sufficient to give us pause - but consider also the nature of that adventure. The geography then was such that one seeking to come to Dor-Lomin might well begin at Nan-Tathren, but the later geography is completely different, placing Nan-Tathren far in the south. It seems quite unlikely in the context of the later material that a Maia and a part of the host would simply forget their mission and lounge about in the Land of Willows. Also, the enslaved Noldor element was later significantly down-played. I think it is safest by far to lose the Noldorin story. As for Tulkas - I don't see why we should include him. All mention of his involvement disappear in the latest texts. The old story taht the Valar were directly involved was clearly rejected - why should Tulkas alone survive? Again, I think it is possible that he could have been there, but that based on the material we have we cannot include him. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 | ||
The Kinslayer
|
![]()
Findegil:
In VE-11 Quote:
In [b]VE-13.01[b] Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#57 | ||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Maédhros about VE-11:
Quote:
Quote:
About VE-13.01: Well, to say the truth, I did in deed expect that you found much of that passages to riscy. But still it I am glad too have done it. Now I will try to brake it down to acceptable level. Quote:
Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 | |||
The Kinslayer
|
![]()
On the New proposed VE-13.01
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
An Army camped at the Pools of Twilight, the great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, [where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows] even there [they] fought with [Morgoth’s Balrogs]>then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The part that I put in bold seems very odd looking to me.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Maédhros:
Quote:
For the rest of the passage I must say that I worked only with text fromated for the forum. That led to some hard breaks concealed by the deleted but still present words and phrases. For that reason I tried to rework it and will present it here in both version plain text and forum formated Forum formatted: Quote:
Quote:
Findegil P.S.: My appologise for the late response. But beside very time consuming demands of my professional job, we had a small but excelent meting of german Tolkien enthusiast this weekend, which demanded all that was left of my time. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 | ||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Sorry for the great delay in my response.
You've split up and moved: Quote:
In fact, I wonder whether the whole thing ought to be moved to the battle on the Anfauglith. Does "the Great Battle" refer to the whole campaign or just to the final overthrow of Morgoth? I had always assumed the former, but reading the passage from a certain point of view, I can convince myself of the latter. Quote:
More importantly, are we really justified in retaining and altering this Lost Tales account? I don't see that any later changes necessitate that the account be lost completely, but they certainly make the account dubious. I think it would be safer to drop this and the story of the battle of the Silent Pools. At any rate, this: Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#61 | |||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
This would make some sense since we learn from Elrond in The Lord of the Rings; volume 1: The Fellowship of the Ring; book II; chapter The Councile of Elrond: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
I try to develop the text in the way I discussed above: Forum formatted: Quote:
Quote:
Findegil |
|||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#62 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Of course, I haven't said anything just now that hasn't been said before in other words. And of course, in the end it still all comes down to shades of grey. But I think it's important to note that just because we can invent justification for something, that doesn't mean we ought to use it. Now I'm not saying that the issue of the battle of the Silent Pools is a simple or obvious one. But in the end I think I still come down on the conservative side on this issue. In retaining it we would be completely altering its circumstances. The liberation of Hithlum is a different matter since it appears in the Annals of Beleriand and no part of it is contradicted later, as far as I know. Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#63 | |
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Can you say to us which part would you be willing to incorporate in the chapter from what Findegil has added so that we can continue to work in this chapter?
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#64 | |||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
That you accepted the liberation of Hithlum is a reliefe and also a little surprise to me. I would have thought it stired more discussion. Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
I found that I had made a mistack in my last editing, since I wanted to take Aiwendils advise to restore the naming of the War for the complte fight and not only for the Battle in the North, but I failed to do so. I will amend that in the text given below: Forum formatted: Quote:
Quote:
Findegil |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#65 | |||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
At the very most, I can see including the battle in Nan-Tathren without explicit reference to the Noldor - but I'm very uncertain about this also, and to be honest I'd rather leave it out also. But if both of you are adamant about retaining it, I could compromise there. Again, I have no problem at all with the material from AB. Findegil wrote: Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#66 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
I am not adamant on any addition I did. But I still think we should name the Battle of Nan-Tathren or we should make a refference to defeats that the Elves suffered in the long time of the war. I think that it would be nice iluminat the "long and bitterly they contested the passage" of Sirion. And the only thinks that could do so are the Battle of Nan-Tathren and the Battle of the Pools. Since we agree that the Battle of the Pools is the riskier one, I would think that is even more an argument to use the Battle of Nan-Tathren. But if it even that is found to risky we should at least try to emphasis the period of time that elapsed during the contest of the passage of Sirion. But in the moment I can not see how we could do it.
Respectfully Findegil |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#67 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Maedhros, what do you think? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#68 | |
The Kinslayer
|
Quote:
I'm not even sure as to we should use the battle in Nan-Tathren material myself. If you or Findegil could propose a way to do so without compromising the canonicity of it, I would be fine with it. I think that more impartant that this, is to try and finish off the other points like the Gil-Galad position. Regarding Gil-Galad, I think now that after some months of thinking about it, I think that it would be best if we follow Aiwendil's suggestion.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#69 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Maedhros:
I also would rather go with eliminating the Nan-Tathren battle completely. I'm pleased that you now agree with my suggestion on the Gil-Galad issue (though to be honest I had to wade through quite a bit of the early discussion to recall the details of that issue). I've been thinking about Lindil's concern back then regarding the kingship passing from the house of Fingolfin to the house of Finarfin without much gravity, and I do think I can sympathize with that concern now. But unless I'm mistaken we needn't actually come right out and say that Gil-Galad inherited the High Kingship; he is called a king of the Noldor, but it can be left ambiguous whether this is in fact the kingship of all the Noldor. "King" in the restricted sense still need not conflict with Earendil's "lordship" over the exiles of Gondolin. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#70 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Okay, so the War of Wrath is settled: we take the additions from Ab but skip that of LT. Thus we have:
Forum formatted: Quote:
Quote:
But it seems to me that Aiwendil did know doubt the decision of Gil-Galad being the son of Orordreth. Would it be a solution to change him from a High-King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth only to a King of the Noldor at Sirions Mouth? (That does not mean that he could not become High-King later in the Second Age, when he is clearly the most might King of the Elves in Middle-Earth.) I tried to re-read the thread to get hold of all the not settle issues, but finishing it I could not remeber them all. (Maybe I was to tired.) At least some of my additions to the voyages of Eärendil have nither been rejecte nor approved finaly. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-10-2004 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Cured a formation fault. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#71 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Findegil wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#72 | ||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]()
While reading our original draft of the Eärendil Chapter, I felt that there was something very odd between VE-02 and VE-03:
VE-02 Quote:
Quote:
VE-02/03 Quote:
Regarding Gil-Galad: As I posted before, I think now that it would be better to follow Aiwendil's advice on his suggestion. As lindil noted, there is a difference between being a King and being a lord, so there is no problem with Eärendil being the lord of the folk of Sirion. So I would still keep VE-08 and VE-09 as in the original chapters. I have no problems with the additions made by Findegil regarding using the Lost Tales material of Galdor in VE-10, but I take into account the fact that Gil-Galad dwelt with Círdan and came with him to aid the Elves of Sirion during the attacks of the Fëanorians, just like in the QS77. VE-10 Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#73 | |||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
After some sleep I tried again to get hold of the stat of the affairs in this thread. But it was very tangled and thus I decided that it is time to recapitulate it here for all. Thus I have copied Pengolods post and work in the results of the further discussion that were done since. I hope I have fetch all the changes we proposed. I only added very few comments, and only in places were I see still some need of discussion.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The end of the Oarni discussion was as fare as I could make it out was to retain them as Earni. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I removed the Drûgs as update of the Pygmies. I have found in Parma Eldalamberon 14 in The Creatures of the Earth the entry: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To be continued in the next post. Respectfully Findegil |
|||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#74 | |||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
Continuation from the post before. See there for some introductional comments.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope you found that a bit helpful. Respectfully Findegil |
|||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#75 | ||||||||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Concerning wether or not to include the Prophecy, I would now would include it, based on the fact that our Simarillion is not necessarily an elf-made document but man made (down from Númenórë) and these are just speculations that they had, I mean flat earth! I have a question for Findegil, did you change the parragraph order as CT did in the Sil 77? I was ok with everything else.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#76 | ||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The rest looks good, as far as I can see right now. I'll look over it again more closely when I get a chance. |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#77 | |||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
VE-02: If you both see no need for the addition of an editoroal brigde here, we will skip it.
I do not remeber the fact that we establishe Ereinion as a valid name. But that is clearly a lack of my memory. we will take Ereinion than instate of Rodnor. VE-04: Since we changed the first Quendi to Vanyar as is suggested by the accompaying description, we should also change the second occurend in the § to Vanyar. VE-08: Posted by Aiwendil Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
VE-11: Posted by Mardhros: Quote:
VE-18: Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
VE-21: There are porbably more things to do in the second prophecy than just to change Gods to Valar put that at least we must change clearly. Quote:
Posted by Maedhros: Quote:
I myself would not move it. It is a bit atricifical to have the Teleri listen to Elwing and then recount her fist metting with them. But I find it even more strange to have Eärendil go on his first heavenly juorney and stir the hopes in Middle-Earth before the Host of the Valar even begins to prepare as it is in Sil77. Some other § arangements might be posible were we would aviod both, but I don't think were are going to play around with Tolkiens writtings in that way. Respectfully Findegil |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#78 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
VE-04: Okay; I forgot we had changed it to Vanyar in the first instance.
VE-08: I'm still tempted to use the Lost Tales fragments; I could go either way on that. VE-21: The Second Prophecy of Mandos is still a major unresolved issue. Maybe we should revive the old thread we had on it. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#79 | |||||
The Kinslayer
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#80 | |||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
![]() |
VE-04 Okay, if I have at least halfe a vote from Aiwendil to work on, I will try to give a better editing of that § with additions only from LT2. And since I felt that it help to get some points in the War of Wrath discussion i will provide forum formated and plain text.
Forum formated: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |