Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I have prepared some comments, and this post actually turned out far shorter than I expected. I think this draft was actually a great improvement over the first one, and I am extremely excited about it.

Yes, I'm feeling pretty good about this draft overall as well. It just goes to show how much better the result is when we combine our efforts!

Bot-03: Where it says "fields of Aman" it should be "Arda."

Thanks. Missed that one.

BoT-04: after "so would Melkor undo or corrupt it." I would add in Fin's BoT-05: This is a nice detail that I miss.

How about this:

BoT-04 <Ainulidale D {This} tale {I have heard also among}[was learned from] the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that the war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand{.}, and><AAm great ruin with fire and deadly cold {and marred all that the other Valar made}.>{that the}The Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; . . .

The reason I omit the "and marred all that the other Valar had made" is that the passage that follows describes this marring in greater detail. But this captures the detail from AAm that he wielded fire and deadly cold.

BoT-06b: I miss the longer LQ description of Tulkas' coming. It conveys his personality and description so much more fully and charismatically: Maybe we could use a combination of the two? I greatly prefer the longer LQ version over the briefer AAm version, so if we must pick one I say we use that one.

I think you mean the Ainulindale? I think using the Ainulindale version is fine:

BoT-06c <Ainulindale D But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little World. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it. And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth{;}.{, and there was a long peace.}>

I'd rather either use the Ainulindale version or the AAm version as a whole rather than mix them.

BoT-08: This seems redundant, and adds no information, simply repeating things already said in the last paragraph.

Omitting it is fine with me; actually I think I prefer to omit it. But I don't feel strongly about it, and if Findegil or someone else thinks it's valuable, I don't mind it.

BoT-08.6: what about

Is this considered too minor to mention?

I omitted it for two reasons. First, the style is that of an informal comment on the story, rather than part of the narrative itself, so it feels stylistically very out of place. Second, it seems to me that this is related to the new story in MT II (giving new importance to Melkor's attitude toward light, flame, and the sun) and to the speculative (and quickly rejected) association of Tulkas with the sun. All in all, I think that for the small detail it provides, it's not worth including.

BoT-13b: i somewhat miss the turns of phrase in Fin's version, but there is no real reason not to use yours

My goal here was to do less chopping up of the text and to give preference to AAm except where the other texts provide substantial new details. But I'm certainly open to other arrangements of the text here.

BoT-15.1: in the AAm insert, as I said to Fin, Vana cannot robe Nessa in flowers, as it has been said that flowers have not come forth yet on earth, so we decided to change it to "signs of spring".

Ah, well caught! And sorry I missed that in your discussion. I must say, I find "signs of spring" a bit weaselly, though. What signs of spring could one be robed with other than flowers? I'd instead err on the side of just omitting that line.

BoT-21: what is the source of your replacement for the "And" in the second sentence?

It's from the incomplete AAm* typescript made by Tolkien (given after the main version of AAm in HoMe X). Since this was made by Tolkien himself, and he introduced changes in it, whereas the full typescript of AAm was made by an assistant from the manuscript, I think AAm* clearly has priority where the two diverge.

[ArcusCalion]

BoT-04: you should take up "wrought" as well, as in your version the phrase has no verb. Otherwise agreed.

BoT-06c: I like this better, personally,

BoT-08.5: I am fine with omitting it, I just wanted to see the reasoning.

BoT-13b: Your version may actually be preferred, looking again. The version Fin made used bits from the next chapter, and seems choppy, so the simplicity of your version seems better to me.

BoT-15.1: Maybe just leaves instead of flowers?

Finally made it to page 2!

[Aiwendil]

BoT-04: You're right - I copied and pasted less than I meant to.

BoT-15.1: It is curious that AAm has birds and flowers apparently existing during the age of the Lamps, while Ainulindale D as corrected says that they did not. But maybe that change to the Ainulindale post-dates those sections of AAm.

Anyway, I'm skeptical about substituting "leaves". It seems like too great a liberty, and is a very different image from the flowers. I'd still rather remove it.

[Aiwendil]

Actually, looking into BoT-15.1 further, I may have found the solution.

In AAm* (and in at least one emendation to the full AAm), Tulkas's wife becomes, instead of Nessa, the newly introduced 'Lëa the Young', a Maia. I had noticed this, but ignored it because the Valaquenta, which postdates AAm*, again has Nessa as his spouse and no mention of Lëa . However, in ignoring these changes I overlooked this:

It is told that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Lëa-vinya, fairest of the maidens of Yavanna, and Vana robed her in flowers that came then first to their opening; and she danced before the Valar...

So it seems to me that the idea now was that flowers did not bloom when the lamps were first made, but first bloomed at the time of this feast. I think we have no contradictions, then, if we do this:

BoT-15.15 And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Oromë, and Vána robed her in flowers{,} [that came then first to their opening;] and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.

[ArcusCalion]

That is perfect!

[gondowe]

I know is very repetitive, but I have no time to rewiew all the posts in this thread and in the thread of chapter two. I'm very oxidized in following the threads. I was comparing the drafts of Aiwendil and Findegil and I'm a bit confused because it seems that the first part of the chapter contains parts that I used to compose the Ainulindale and the last part is included by me in the Chapter of Valinor.
If it is no too laborious and you are agree, it would be helpful for me to have an updated text of the chapters in a new post that can print and compare quietly and easily with mine to give my opinion on the structure (only) pitily I will not can give texts edited by me. Now, retranslate would be very painful.
Thanks and greetings.

[Findegil]

BoT-03: “fields of Aman” to “fields of Arda”: Why? It is a change from specific to unspecific. So why should the new comers of the Manwë party not decent into Arda first in the fields of Aman?

BoT-03.5: I propose to add a bit from LT here:

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Aman and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered. BoT-03.5<LT Then when all these great spirits were gathered together within the confines of the world Manwe spake to them, saying: "Lo now! How may the Valar abide in this fair place or be happy and rejoice in its goodness, if {Melko}[Melkor] be suffered to destroy it, and make fire and turmoil, so that we have nowhere to sit in peace, nor may the earth blossom or the designs of Ilúvatar come to being?"
Then all the Valar were angered with {Melko}[Melkor], and>{And} Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here {no less than thou}.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar …

BoT-08: That passage names the conflict the first battle. I am inclined to keep it simply for that reason.

BoT-08.5: The detail that this would add is small. And fro reasons of safety which Aiwendil explained I agree to omit it.

BoT-13b: Sorry Aiwendil, but I am not happy with you arrangement. Yes AAm should be preferred to avoid to much chopping up of the texts, but in this passages other sources have fuller accounts. The things they add might not be to very substantial but this phase of the story of Middle-earth is reported sparingly enough, so that I would like to include even tiny details. What about:

BoT-13b <AAm Now the Valar began their labours anew; and when the lands and the waters were ordered the Valar had need of light, that the seeds of Yavanna's devising might grow and have life. BoT-14b <LQ, Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light>. Aulë therefore wrought two great lamps, as it were of silver and of gold and yet translucent, and Varda filled them with hallowed fire, to give light to the Earth.> BoT-13.5 <Ainulindalë D {and}And the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named {[Forontë >]} Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named {[Hyarantë >]} Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.

BoT-13.5: Again propose to add a bit from LT here:

… but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[Ulmo’s] counsel that each of the Valar should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took his words{ in faith} and would use his advice, but others distrusted; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the Shadowy Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and trusted his {promises}[departure] not at {all}[for long], that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate as {he}[Ulmo] bid, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.> BoT-15 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, …

gondowe, please see your pm.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BoT-03: “fields of Aman” to “fields of Arda”: Why? It is a change from specific to unspecific. So why should the new comers of the Manwë party not decent into Arda first in the fields of Aman?

This was actually a mistake on my part. Tolkien originally wrote "Halls of Aman" here in Ainulindale C, and this was changed to "fields of Arda" in D.

BoT-03.5: I think Findegil's suggestion to use the Lost Tales passage here is good. However, I would then delete the phrase "lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered", since exactly this motivation is made clear immediately after in the quote by Manwe:

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, BoT-03.5 {lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered}. <LT Then when all these great spirits were gathered together within the confines of the world Manwe spake to them, saying: "Lo now! How may the Valar abide in this fair place or be happy and rejoice in its goodness, if {Melko}[Melkor] be suffered to destroy it, and make fire and turmoil, so that we have nowhere to sit in peace, nor may the earth blossom or the designs of Ilúvatar come to being?"
Then all the Valar were angered with {Melko}[Melkor], and>{And} Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here {no less than thou}.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar …

BoT-08: It's true that the name of the war is given here, so I'm fine with keeping it.

BoT-13b: OK, I agree that there are some small details here that were missed in my version, and I think your suggestion is good.

BoT-13.7, -13.8: I see the appeal of the idea here, but for me taking the words of Melko and giving them to Ulmo is going a bit too far.

[ArcusCalion]

everything looks good.

BoT-13.7, -13.8: It cannot be Ulmo who says it, bc the next sentence says "In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" The way this is constructed it cannot be attributed to anyone besides Melkor without quite seeming to fit. The imagery of Ulmo being alone in the deep is also given later, in the next chapter, so we dont need to repeat it here. As for the second addition, I like it and I think it is in line with the later idea, minus the promises of Melkor. I would change

and trusted his {promises}[departure] not at {all}[for long],

to

and trusted [that] his {promises}[departure] [was] not {at all}[for long],

Also the bit about the words of [Ulmo] should be removed if we do not take up part 1.

[Findegil]

BoT-13.7, BoT-13.8: Okay, I see that Ulmo in the role of Melkor arguing for the split is to risky. But what about this:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar] counsel that each of the Valar should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took {his}[this] words{ in faith} and would use {his}[this] advice, but others distrusted; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the Shadowy Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and trusted [that] his {promises}[departure was] not {at all}[for long], that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

hmmm this looks fine to me. I have a few grammatical and other minor suggestions:

BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[the] counsel [of some of the Valar] that each of the {Valar}[them] should now depart and dwell amid those things that {he}[they] loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend {his}[their] sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwë and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took {his}[these] words{ in faith} and would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the {Outer Lands}[Middle-earth]. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his {magic}[power] deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>

I changed Outer Lands to Middle-earth, since the term Outer Lands is never used in later writings, and the Middle-earth is what is meant by it. I also removed the Shadowy from Shadowy Seas, but this is because I am unsure if the Shadowy Seas are meant to refer to the seas outside of Aman or if it is a general term for everything.

[Aiwendil]

BoT-13.7, -13.8: I'm still having some problems with this passage. Ascribing Melko's duplicitous counsel to a vague 'some of the Valar' is perhaps better than ascribing it to Ulmo, but still seems rather risky to me. On the other hand, I do suppose we know that some of the Valar must have preferred to head off on their own. But if we are to take the passage, I would edit it down more significantly:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar's] counsel that each of the {Valar}them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. {In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo,} {but}But of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and {trusted [that] his {promises}[departure was] not {at all}[for long],} that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest he take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us {save Manwe only}? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

The main things I've done here are:

- The "covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" must, I think, go. This is Melko subtly trying to stir dissent among the Valar; but now we must assume that the Valar who argue that all should separate are doing so in good faith.

- Similarly, the contrast of those who "took his word in faith" and those who "distrusted" must go. These again depend on the fact that Melko was indeed dissembling and was untrustworthy. With the argument instead ascribed to other Valar, it should go without saying that their words are taken in faith; the others disagree not because they distrust but because they think it is better to remain together.

- From the context in the Lost Tales, it's clear that the "Shadowy Seas" are indeed those near Valinor. But these must go since now they are not shadowy until the Hiding of Valinor.

- Instead of distorting the bit about Aule and Yavanna not trusting Melkor, I would rather just remove that phrase. The passage still works without it.

- Melkor is now more powerful than Manwe, so we must remove "save Manwe only".

The passage itself seems reasonable to me if we make those changes. However, I still don't like the fact that it breaks up LQ, separating the description of the blending of the lights from the statement that the Valar made their home in that region. At the very least, we must somehow still include the fact that Almaren was in the region where the lights blended.

[gondowe]

Well, Im going start bit a bit.
With this last passage you are discussing, in general terms I'm agree with Aiwendil.
I took the decision of give the text more general sense:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar were of the opinion] {counsel} that each of {the Valar} them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. {In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo,} {but}And of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would [agreed] {use his advice}, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementari], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils {and trusted his promises not at all}[,were of the opinion] that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest he take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And there [where the light of both the Lamps met and blended,] upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

The sintaxis I left for you.
Perhaps now in this time Manwë and Melkor were equal and the Valar knew It?
"where the light of both the Lamps met and blended." I think It should be repeated because Almaren was builded there.

Greetings

[Findegil]

We could take up BoT-15 a bit earlier:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar’s] counsel that each of {the Valar}them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries.{ In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but}But of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the{ Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementári], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils{ and trusted his promises not at all}, that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us{ save Manwe only}? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.>BoT-15b<AAm {and}And that lake was between Illuin and Ormal in the midmost of Arda, were because of the blending of the lights, all things were richest in growth an fairest of hue. But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I like that solution a lot. I think my concerns about the passage are all addressed with Findegil's last post.

[ArcusCalion]

I have a minor point: Should the term Outer Lands be used? or should it not be changed to Middle-earth, to avoid the confusion of what is meant?

also I think Fin's "were" addition in the 15b sentence should be "where" and should come before the comma. Aside from that, I think it looks great!

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

also I think Fin's "were" addition in the 15b sentence should be "where" and should come before the comma.

Yes, I missed that typo.

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I have a minor point: Should the term Outer Lands be used? or should it not be changed to Middle-earth, to avoid the confusion of what is meant?

Good point. I think it must be changed. In 'The Coming of the Valar', the Outer Lands are defined as the Twilit Isles, Eruman, and Valinor; but in later writings the Outer Lands are all the lands east of Valinor (including Middle-earth). Perhaps it would be safest to simply remove "that were set beyond the Outer Lands". So:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar’s] counsel that each of {the Valar}them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries.{ In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but}But of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas {that were set beyond the Outer Lands}. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the{ Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementári], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils{ and trusted his promises not at all}, that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us{ save Manwe only}? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.>BoT-15b<AAm {and}And that lake was between Illuin and Ormal in the midmost of Arda where, because of the blending of the lights, all things were richest in growth an fairest of hue. But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.

Originally Posted by gondowe

Perhaps now in this time Manwë and Melkor were equal and the Valar knew It?

I don't think this can be the case, since after this Melkor manages to destroy the Lamps and the Valar cannot overcome him. In any case, we know that the conception of Melkor's power is much greater in the later Legendarium than in the Lost Tales, so I think we should delete the phrase for safety.

[ArcusCalion]

It looks to me that we have resolved all of our points of contention for this chapter. Should we label it as semi-finished?

[gondowe]

I agree with the solution of Findegil in15b. For me thats well.
Greetings

[Findegil]

I see as well no open points any longer. But I have again found something that might be added:
- We missed the information which colure was used for which Lamp so fare. We could add it in this way:

BoT-13b <AAm Now the Valar began their labours anew; and when the lands and the waters were ordered the Valar had need of light, that the seeds of Yavanna's devising might grow and have life. BoT-14b <LQ, Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light>. Aulë therefore wrought two great lamps, as it were of silver and of gold and yet translucent, and Varda filled them with hallowed fire, to give light to the Earth.> BoT-13.5 <Ainulindalë D {and}And the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp BoT-13.6 <editorial addition based on LT of silver >they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named {[Forontë >]} Illuin; and the otherBoT-13.7 <editorial addition based on LT of gold > was raised in the South, and it was named {[Hyarantë >]} Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.

And a snippet to add again at the ofthrough of the Lamps:

BoT-21 <AAm But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. {And}<AAm* He came down like a black storm from the North, and> he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps, BoT-21.5 <Q30 and in the confusion of darkness he roused the seas against {their}the island[u[ of the Valar[/b].>. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; …

It might sound a bit redundant but it is the only clear statement that I could find of a direct attack of Melkor upon the Island of Almaren. That such an attack occurred is clear from the fact, that the dwelling of the Valar was “utterly destroyed".

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: If we all agree on this, the chapter would be finished instead of semi-finished.

[ArcusCalion]

I like both of these additions.

[Aiwendil]

BoT-13.6, -13.7: I'm fine with this; based on the names of the Lamps ('sky-blue' and 'high-gold') I think we can be confident that the colours of the Lamps remain distinguished, even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned after the Lost Tales.

BoT-21.5: I'm less sure about this. The phrase "in the confusion of darkness" is very similar to the phrase "in the confusion and the darkness" that comes just a few sentences later. And it does seem repetitive to say first that Melkor "roused the seas" and a sentence later that the "seas arose in tumult". And since we already know that Almaren is destroyed, I don't see that this adds much.

[ArcusCalion]

Perhaps:

BoT-21.5 <Q30 and {in the confusion of darkness} he roused the {seas}Great Lake against {their}the island of the Valar.>

[Findegil]

BoT:

BoT-21.5: I can see your concerns, Aiwendil. What about taking the info I want from an older source:

BoT-21 <AAm But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. {And}<AAm* He came down like a black storm from the North, and> he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult BoT-21.5b<S and {floods}flooded the isle where the Valar {(or Gods)} dwelt>; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I am personally hesitant about this, because there is no pressing need to add it thus, for it removes the essential factor that formed your reason for the inclusion: an express attack of Melkor upon Almaren. In addition, the Isle of Almaren is not in the Sea, so the sea cannot rise up and flood it. It was in the Great Lake.

[gondowe]

I'm agreed with BoT 13 additions, more or less is what i had done.
In the case of BoT 21 I think is not necessary the add, I think is inherent with the great cataclysm described the destruction of Almaren.
Greetings

[Aiwendil]

BoT-21.5: If we go with this at all, I would prefer Findegil's last proposal, which I think is minimally disruptive to the text.

[Findegil]

Okay, if all of you feel that it is not necessary we will skip BoT-21.5.

I think with that all open points are cleared, right?

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree, it looks like this chapter is done!

[ArcusCalion]

Apologies for reopening this chapter, but in rereading the MT text about Varda and the stars, I think there it is better to break it up and insert it than to use it in its entirety later on. The first part has a section we can use here:

BoT-02.5 {Therefore Ilúvatar, at the entering in of the Valar into ...... , and the giving would be void.}
BoT-02.7 <MT {before}Before the establishment of Arda ‘the Realm’, while the Valar in general (including an unnamed host of others who never came to Arda) were labouring in the general construction of Eä (the World or Universe), Varda {was in Eldarin and Númenórean legend said to have} designed and set in their places most of the principal stars; but being (by destiny and desire) the future Queen of Arda, in which her ultimate function lay, especially as the lover and protectress of the Quendi, she was concerned not only with the great Stars in themselves, but also in their relations to Arda, and their appearance therefrom (and their effect upon the Children to come).>
When therefore at last ......

I removed the bit about "in Eldarin and Numenorean legend" because these are the legends it's discussing.

[Findegil]

BoT-02.7: I am not sure that this the right place for this insert. But for the moment I did not find any better.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Is there any mention of the First War as such (with capital letters and all) in any of Tolkien's writings other than the published Silmarillion?

Genuinely curious - I've searched far and wide and couldn't find any such term: sure, there definitely was a 'war' between Melkor and the Valar before the coming of Tulkas, but was it actually called the 'First War'?

[Findegil]

I don't think so either. But in MT II Tolkien used 'the First Battle' to name the strife in which Tulkas came to Arda.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I don't think so either. But in MT II Tolkien used 'the First Battle' to name the strife in which Tulkas came to Arda.

Respectfully
Findegil

You're right - 'First Battle' occurs all over MR, and as such I think it should be adopted instead of the 'First War', unless someone else knows a later source for the term.

[Findegil]

Did I miss something? As fare as I can find we used the term 'first war' (without capitals) only in two place in our editing.
First it has the qualifier 'the first war of the West upon the North' and names the campain of the Valar against Utumno after the awekening of the Elves.
Second is with the qualifier 'the first War with Sauron' and means the attack of Sauron on Ost-in-edhil and deafet by the Elves and Numenoreans that follwed.

Other wise it is used with captitals in two places in my darft for the appendices. Where it is used for the strife under discussion here. In that part I am willing to change it without question.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Did I miss something? As fare as I can find we used the term 'first war' (without capitals) only in two place in our editing.
First it has the qualifier 'the first war of the West upon the North' and names the campain of the Valar against Utumno after the awekening of the Elves.
Second is with the qualifier 'the first War with Sauron' and means the attack of Sauron on Ost-in-edhil and deafet by the Elves and Numenoreans that follwed.

Other wise it is used with captitals in two places in my darft for the appendices. Where it is used for the strife under discussion here. In that part I am willing to change it without question.

Respectfully
Findegil

Well - we were talking about the 'Tulkas comes; Morgoth flees' war, weren't we? I.e. the first, elemental war/battle?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Well - we were talking about the 'Tulkas comes; Morgoth flees' war, weren't we? I.e. the first, elemental war/battle?

But where in our draft are you proposing changing "First War" to "First Battle"?

[Findegil]

That was exactly my question (may be put a bit strange). Because the phrase 'First War' was not used in our texts other then what I mentioned in my last post. Thus never in the narative for the strife with Melkor in which Tulkas came and Melkor feld from Arda.

Respectfully
Findegil