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#41 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.
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#42 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#43 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Davem wrote:
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#44 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Basically this means that no-one could master the Ring - it would always retain the power to leave its 'master' & move on. My own feeling is that it is the Fires at the heart of the earth, rather than Sauron, which draw the Ring. I've speculated before that 'the fires which well up from the heart of the earth' (ie the fires of Orodruin) are the same as the Secret Fire which Eru set to burn at the heart of the earth. The thing that now occurs is, while the Ring may not have 'desired' its own destruction in the fire, it may have 'desired' to return to, & become one with, its source (which it may not have seen as 'destruction' at all) Now, all the foregoing may seem to imply a conscious, desiring, will on the Ring's part - which I don't necessarily think is the case. It is, to my mind, perhaps on the level of a moth drawn to a candle flame, which, if it attains its 'desire' will find only its own destruction. |
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#45 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
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A contribution because I've been away from CbC for far too long, albeit a small one because, well, Spanish essays don't write themselves. Regarding the oft-quotes star passage:
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#46 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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#47 | |
Dead Serious
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That does not leave Divine Force out of the picture! Bilbo was, after all, "meant to find it", but the Divine Force element seems more visible in Gandalf's sudden inspiration to send Bilbo along, than in any move the Ring makes. It's really getting into that age-old question of Free Will and Divine Intervention again...
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#48 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I have to ask myself why this is...
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#49 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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#50 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#51 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Kuruharan wrote:
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I find it hard to imagine Iluvatar saying "Wow, Sauron's really doing quite a job with this ring he's making. I think I'll give it a soul." It would be a situation somewhat analogous to the Dwarves, except that Eru gave them fear only because Aule had intended good. If you ask me, the "soul" behind the Ring is not a fea but an eala - specifically, Sauron. Last edited by Aiwendil; 04-09-2006 at 07:38 PM. |
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#52 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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However, I don't think that the part of Sauron that went into the Ring was entirely "Sauron" after that point. I think it was something else...note how if somebody else (read Gandalf) claimed the Ring and mastered it the Ring would be able to survive even though Sauron's spirit would be permanently broken.
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#53 | |
Dead Serious
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My apologies on misinterpreting, but anyway...
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That's being rather picky, of course, but the survival of the Ring and the survival of its will are not completely the same thing, according to our understanding of speech. In general, I agree with your statements, but your assertion there was somewhat flawed.
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#54 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I wonder if Tolkien was inspired by the story of The Giant who had no heart - though its a common theme in folklore. The giant is impervious to harm because he has placed his heart in some obect which is hidden away
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It has been shown by Shippey that Tolkien often took mythological themes & tried to 'reconstrcuct the 'actual' story that had been lost - see his esay on Light Elves & Dark Elves in Tolkien Studies vol 1 - Norse mythology mentions 'Light Elves & Dark Elves (losalfar & swartalfar), but doesn't explain what they are or what the difference is. Tolkien constructs an 'explanation' & comes up with the Calaquendi & the Moriquendi. Maybe with the relationship between Sauron & the Ring he was doing the same. Of course, this doesn't offer an explanation in terms of the story of Sauron & its workings within Middle-earth, so we're not much further forward.... |
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#55 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 10-09-2005 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Clarity |
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#56 | |
Dead Serious
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If the Ring is being used/held by a new Dark Lord, it continues to exist. There is a still a perfect golden band with hidden Mordorian inscriptions on somebody's finger. I wasn't saying that it would be exactly the same... Or being 100% serious.
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#57 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Why do I think it is not a character in that sense? For several reasons, including that it does create more problems to my mind than considering it as a powerful yet somehow unearthly object. One reason I've been thinking about today is that of why Sauron would create something which is possessed of so much of his power and 'allow' it to have that kind of sentience? He may have sought to create it in such a way that it would have some kind of 'magnetic' property or other kind of force which was stronger the closer it was to him, but we cannot say that for certain. The 'pull' that Frodo feels in Mordor could be down to many things besides the powers of the Ring. Though on this topic I am open to persuasion... ![]()
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#58 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 10-10-2005 at 07:39 AM. Reason: Clarity |
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#59 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Are the Silmarillions characters? Perhaps it might be worthwhile considering the nature of material art forms and their power over beholders.
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#60 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Eru baby
Obviously we could move this particular topic to another thread, but, seeing as this is the second to the last chapter where the ring acutally exists, ill throw down here. It's an interesting discussion about the ring. What's more interesting to me is how so many different angles people take on the works. Its why I love this website. So, into the fray....
OK well, I dont ever mind being in the minority on any debate - but - I have to say whooooahhhh folks slow down. ![]() A couple of things first: In the context of the story, I do agree that many of the players do imply, bestow, and otherwise conclude a will towards the ring. If I were immersed into the drama I would as well, I suppose. Especially if I had no understanding of the craft or technology or history. How would a peasant from the middle age view a computer or an Apache helicoptor, or (and a closer analogy for this age) - the computer at NORAD that controls ICBM nuclear missles (that, oh by the way, has super malevolent evil software programming)? Since the author chose not to have the reader have any 1st or 2nd person experience of the main protagonist (Sauron), then the ring benefited or inherited the main protagonist role. It's a genious effect, but lets not run away with it. Quote:
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The ring to me is both a study of power and of evil. Its in the ring - yes - but the bearers of the ring is where the action is. All the little slips and turns that are being used as examples for sentience to me show only Eru's subtle hand in events as Lalwende's quote is suggesting: Quote:
At this point, it's sitting in the sand at the bottom of a river. Its a piece of metal. Like my power saw unplugged. All the potential in the world, but nothing really, but some metal. Only until my saw becomes plugged in is when the purpose of the saw begins. Of course I could cut my hand off as well as make a table, or an heirloom cabinet with it, or mabye I just need it to trim a 2X4... Its the same with the bearers to me. All the will and sensing and sentience doesnt come into play until the ring gets it's bearer, and with the bearer comes good and evil and fate and choice... But back to Lal's quote, which to me is the best argument. After Isildur, its found by Smeagle, then Bilbo and on to Frodo. Curious that the hands of Halflings are the bearers. They apparantly are the only species alive in ME that had the intestinal fortitude of goodness that could actually bear the ring and not claim it. I see Eru's hand in that, not the ring's will. Last edited by drigel; 10-10-2005 at 08:55 AM. |
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#61 | |||||
Regenerating Ringkeeper
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Is the Ring a character? Yes, I think so. And yes, I believe the Ring is a character with the ability of making decisions and acting upon them within it's reach.
If it isn't a character, than how do you explain this? Quote:
The Ring expanded or shrank and slipped of a finger where it had been tight. How can this have been? Fingers don't suddenly get smaller. This is where the Ring's ability for decisionmaking is most perceptable. It chooses to expand or shrink. And when you make decisions, you have a purpose. And when you have a purpose, you have a will. Quote:
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And after he lost it, the abilities of the Ring proved the best defencemechanism that you could wish for. The Ring tried to find Sauron as well as Sauron tried to find the Ring. The Ring tried to leave Frodo, using Boromir as victim. The Nazgűl were never far off. But it couldn't leave Frodo by it's ability of expanding or shrinking, because Frodo always kept it on it's chain. A ring in a ring. Quote:
After this comes Gollum, who takes it for his own after murdering Deagol. The Ring abandones him in a place full of orcs (and in a time when the Necromancer is searching again near the place where it was lost). It was picked up, as Gandalf says, by the unlikeliest person imaginable. The history of the Ring from Isildur's fall on confirms the theorie of the Ring being able to abandon someone, but not being able to choose it's next master. Quote:
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#62 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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lath
Those are good points (Kuruharan's too). And there isnt a right and wrong as I see it. I just dont see it the same way I guess. Gandalf's quote has weight to the argument. I suppose I view it differently because I view Gandalfs take, as scholarly as it was, as giving too much credit to the ring. But, as a reader, I know that Gandalf knoweth not the will of Eru: he was making a best of an educated guess as he could. ![]() ![]() Quote:
But we cant nail it down either way. I just attribute more to fate, evil or good, and Eru's plan, than I attribute to the ring being its own master. Aw heck, I dont know lol. I just think if it's that sentient, it would have found an orc in the Misty's somewheres and eventually rolled itself back to daddy S. ![]() Last edited by drigel; 10-10-2005 at 10:02 AM. |
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#63 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#64 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Id rep Lath, Lal and Kuru if I could btw. you guys are great! so much more than meets they eye with you guys... ![]() thinking..... late edit: One thing i will attribute to the ring. The ring is wholly evil. Evil is a part of our world. Our world is part of nature. Nature abhors a vacume. The evilness of the rings nature would cause the ring to seem to seek bearers. Other than that, I cant see of the other stuff. Last edited by drigel; 10-10-2005 at 11:20 AM. |
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#65 | |
Dead Serious
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#66 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Perhaps an example will help illustrate.
The Ring left Gollum because Gollum was no longer of any use. It dropped itself in a place where it would think an orc would find it. Given its physical limitations this was about the best it could do. This is where Eru intervenes because who should happen to be blundering about the tunnels but the most unlikeliest of persons, Bilbo Baggins. Oops! However, all is not lost. We still have to get out of the tunnels. Surely this silly creature will not be able to find a way out. Ooops! That stoopid numbskull Gollum showed the creature the way out. No worries! The orcs are guarding the door. *pop* goes the Ring off the finger. It is about to be rescued!! Huzzah!! #@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit. However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made. At least it was out of Gollum’s cave and out in the Wide World again. Who knows what could happen out there. (We do, of course, but at the time a world of possibilities would seem to open before the Ring’s metaphorical eyes.) Quote:
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Now, no doubt, I'm going to hear about how The Hobbit is non-canonical.
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#67 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.
Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there. ![]() Of course, it could be that such a form of 'life' did exist in Middle earth...
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 10-10-2005 at 12:24 PM. |
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#68 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#69 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#70 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer? Seems to me if you take this route, then the ring's desire is to simply be wielded, by whom it doesnt matter, apparantly. The ring is itself. Sounds like Sauron didnt make a ring, he had a baby... ![]() All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring. If anything, the ring effects pathological possesiveness and corruption, but by it's design, and the bearer's souls becoming corrupted by it is an affect of that power. Its an elegant design, sophisticated, technologically superior, imbibed with the power of a Maia, but it's just a power tool IMHO. Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read. ugh - file this one under "balrogs wings" I mumble, as I retreat back under my rock and read the next chapter ![]() |
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#71 | ||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Many years pass. Sauron has returned to Mordor and Bilbo is about to go off into the Wild. This is perfect! Oh crrrap! That silly wizard intervened and now I'm still stuck here and this new hobbit won't use me at all. And so on and so on... I imagine there is a lot of fodder for a “Very Secret Diary of the Ring” here if one wanted to press matters. Quote:
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#72 | |||
Regenerating Ringkeeper
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The Troll's purse had an antitheft device... when someone tried to grip it which wasn't the owner (or how do we know: not Troll?) it alarmed the owner. Quote:
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#73 | |
A Mere Boggart
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What I think is happening is that Tolkien chose to build in to the text an object which would appear all the more powerful for being enigmatic. That some characters believe the Ring has a 'will' suggests this is the general accepted view in Middle-earth that it has a 'will'; the Ring has an evil reputation. But just how far, if at all, does it have 'will'? Is this simply the fear of the characters? Is it them attempting to express the ineffable? The latter could be true - Gandalf seems to fail to find words to adequately convey to Frodo what the exact peril is, so has to express this in terms of anthropomorphising the Ring. As an approach, its not wrong; people are terrified of this thing. I actually don't want to know whether the Ring is one or the other, as it's far more fascinating it being this engima, and besides, it's fun to argue the possibilities. ![]()
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#74 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It is fun. My problem apparantly is that I just need to know when to stop debating (sorry).
Sentient or not, I find the idea of evil being trapped or manifested in an object much more interesting to ponder. Last edited by drigel; 10-12-2005 at 07:34 AM. |
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#75 | |
A Mere Boggart
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#76 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Completely OT to this thread (of course), but you may be onto something there, Lal. Seeing that in all of Ea, it was corruption and not creation that was the path of the devil.
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#77 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Tried skimming this thread but couldn't find anything, so..
Its been mentioned on a couple of sites I've recently skimmed that the star Sam saw was actually Earendel. Quote:
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#78 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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query -
what is the literal translation of: Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima! ? hail earendil, of the star radiance? |
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#79 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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#80 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
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In my opinion the Ring is not sentient and has no will of its own. It is a very powerful object that is somehow tied to its creator or is maybe even a part of him, nothing more, nothing less. Whenever someone speaks of its "will" this is meant metaphorically and not literally. The ring does not "choose" to leave other people and cannot manipulate them. However, in my opinion, the extraordinary power of this object does influence people and does seem to act like a powerful drug. It influences peoples consciousness (they can become powerful rulers, conquer middle-earth, etc.) but maybe also their subconsciousness in that they become less resistant towards Sauron (but that is speculation).
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