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#41 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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drigel, I had hoped that my use of smilies--the wink and the big grin--would have made clear the comedy of my ironic intent. Perhaps humour is being edged out by seriousness here. ![]() ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-18-2005 at 09:00 AM. |
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#42 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Here is what I think it boils down to. There are two distinct ways of reading. The first is to read for pleasure, the second is to read for purpose. Many of us read for purpose. This would include anyone who regularly reads through lengthy business documents to look for key points, journalists who carry out research in order to file a report, A Level students who have copies of Jane Eyre liberally inscribed with notes, teachers who scour essays and texts looking for relevant and coherently argued opinions. If we read for purpose often enough then it can easily become habit, because we may have been trained to do this, and we may also do this often enough that it becomes normal to us. Even when we sit down to read for pleasure then we can find ourselves mentally reaching for a pencil to make a note in the margin.
How many A Level students bemoan the fact that they are having to study 'boring' books? Rather than the books themselves being boring, the problem lies in that they are required to anayse the books without first having had the simple pleasure of reading them. A case in point is an A Level class I once taught part way through their course. They had been studying Chaucer and all pronounced it to be boring, which surprised me as when I had studied it for A Level everyone had enjoyed it. When I studied Chaucer our teacher had first made us listen to the text being read aloud, and then we had read it right the way through, making few if any notes. However this class had not had that pleasure; instead they had opened the book and had straight away begun making in depth notes with every few lines they read. This is the difference between reading for pleasure and reading for purpose. If we go to a book with purpose in the forefront of our minds then we will approach it in that businesslike manner, as something to be dealt with, not merely to be enjoyed. If we go to a book purely with pleasure in mind then we are more likely to accept what is contained therein, as heightened critical faculties are not required for having fun. Obviously, many of us will read a book with pleasure in mind despite us being, in our professional capacities, purpose seekers. But how easy is it to shake off that way of reading which requires us to seek out key points and phrases which will make our arguments more coherent? I don't say that this is any fault of the reader who generally reads with a professional purpose, nor are they reading it incorrectly. This is just how many people do read. It is a different way of reading, but a way which necessarily means we are not able to immerse ourselves fully in the alternate reality of what we are reading (and alternate reality would include a novel about urban London as much as one about Middle Earth). Absolutely no author of novels or poetry writes with the professional reader in mind, beyond possibly making sure it will appeal to the publisher. The writer is wholly concerned with the creative endeavour at hand, and is indeed omnipotent in the world they have created. Tolkien is the creator of Eru, and what Tolkien says must happen in Arda, happens. It is his world, and we are invited to visit, but not to alter it. There are things I do not like in Middle Earth, but that is me projecting my own feelings, my personal critical eye, onto those occurrences. I cannot do anything about them. I can talk about them, and how I think they are wrong, but it does not bring me any closer to what the author thought, in fact it takes me further away, so I must put aside my purposeful mind and read with pleasure, or else change the channel and go elsewhere.
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#43 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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What I would call willfull interpretation (bringing an idea to bear from outside the text) seems to be mutually exclusive with enchantment, since the latter requires the acquiescence of the reader to the story (or appreciator to the art, if you prefer), whereas the former is the reader acting upon the story (or interpreter acting upon the art). Please understand that I am condemning nothing, just making an observation. Thus, the former will necessarily impede the latter, and the latter will disallow the former. This is not taking into account interpretation as intended by the author, which is an altogether different kettle of fish. This is not to say that the willful interpreter cannot appreciate the story for itself, but I think a full appreciation is hindered by the willful interpretation. As for the difference between Elves in TH and LotR, I guess I always understood the Elves in the Hobbit (esp. Rivendell) to be blithe on the surface, playful even, because they had gotten to a place of acceptance with their immortality and sadness. I never doubted that it was there, it just lay below the surface, and actually I felt that the silly songs were in a way a symbol of their sadness and depth. |
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#44 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Party Tree
Posts: 1,042
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Here is a major difference between the learned higher mind and the simple mind (at least mine
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Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII |
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#45 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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OK, I could not help myself. I just had to look up "enchantment" in the OED:
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But there are two really remarkable things about Tolkien's description of enchantment that I think bear mentioning: 1) He states that is it enchantment which produces the Secondary World, and not the other way around. This would seem to imply that the effect of the writer's art on the reader is what makes the world; in this case, he sees the reader as being enchanted as much by his own ability or willingness to recieve and reimagine the art, as he is by the art of the author. 2) He believes that this enchantment is fulfilled when the reader and the writer together enter the world in some kind of partnership. "to the satisfaction of both their senses." This is very much in keeping with his view of the relation between reader and writer in the creation of that world in the first place ("enchantment produces the Secondary World"). So it seems to me that with his stories, Tolkien was attempting to invite me to be enchanted by his art, and that without my active participation in the creation of that world by agreeing with his art, then it cannot exist. In the end, he gives the reader a measure of freedom; we are not being taken over by his world, but co-creators of it.
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#46 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Inevitably the reader 'co-creates' the secondary world with the artist - Tolkien speaks of the way references to 'hills, trees & rivers' will conjure in the mind of the reader images of all the trees, rivers & hills he has ever known & particularly of the first tree, river or hill the reader experienced, the one which will always mean tree, river or hill to him - or something along those lines. But this is different from bringing with us into the secondary world our beliefs, values, facts we've amassed over the years, etc while we are there. Once we have left that world it will itself become part of that 'baggage' to be analysed & deconstructed. But if we are analysing & deconstructing it while we are in it how can it possibly enchant us? It won't be a 'living' co-creation between author & reader, but rather an experiment in literary analysis. It won't be what it was meant to be, & so won't have the effect it was intended to have. Isn't this exactly the approach Tolkien was criticising in the Beowulf lecture? Beowulf, as he pointed out, is not a quarry for 'facts' about the beliefs & cultural history of the Anglo-Saxons but a poem which should entertain & enchant us. |
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#47 | |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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![]() I'm glad the fireside tale view of The Hobbit works for you too, Holbytlass. Thanks, Boromir88. Another aspect of the story that makes it so believable for me is the level of detail and sense of history that fills the books. The idea that we're only seeing a portion of the tapestry of Middle Earth makes it all the more real - it's much like the real world where everything is interwoven and has a story behind it, even though we can't always see the connections.
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#48 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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This gets back to something I asked, which Heren answered. Quote:
Now, I don't want to make enemies ![]() How do we know if the reader's own psyche has unconciously dictated elements of that enchantment? Or even if the reader has fallen prey to some deep desire to be overwhelmed by this fantasy? Other than the sense of continuous enchantment and satisfaction--that is, duration of sensation--what other evidence is there that guarantees the enchantment is the one the author intended? That it isn't, in fact, some kind of delusion which the reader's desire to be enchanted has created? Is there a way to account for the possibility of the reader's 'willful sublimation', to expand upon the term littlemanpoet has coined for willful interpretation?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#49 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Affirmative. Apart from instances when negative.
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Automatically, Author and Reader have something to be friends about. But friendship may form, and may form not a part of Love. If it does, it adds up to the pleasure, but it is not necessary for Friendship to be there at all. Love (of Reader towards the Author's work) may occur even if Author's baggage is posh crocodile leather, and Reader brings in woven basket (or vice versa). There is no possibility for one of them of not having a baggage at all, unless the Reader is not born that very day, already literate, but knowing nothing and learning basic concepts of life through the book of the Author, which would have to be Reader's first source of information about the world, general. And Love, if it is a True Love ('reading on purpose' excluded), may suspend disbelief better than anything else. Hence the enchantement. Side effects (Besides the suspense of disbelief) - Love urges us to Protect the beloved (how dare them dumb critics say Tolkien ain't great writer!), urges us to Need the beloved (and constantly be lured to read and reread the books), urges us to Admire the beloved and do things for her (per instance, write fan-fiction, play RPG, read out long homilies about love...) and form new friendships sharing our admiration on this here forum, among other places. But we all are mortal Fallen men. We may get angry with the beloved at times, there may be misunderstandings, misinterpretations and irritation. Alas for both Author and Reader.
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 05-19-2005 at 12:49 AM. Reason: typos |
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#50 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: the Netherlands
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When you look at it from that perspective, the author is indeed never wrong. It is me who's fault it is that the spell is broken. But fact is, that those things broke the spell for me, and if the book had been more perfect for me. that would not have happened. The highest art or a writer would therefor be to create a world that no one, no matter what fault they make, would fall out of, a spell that even the most inadequate readers can't break. It's like blaming the road for the accident's we make. (The book being the road and the reader bying the one driving onthe road) When I get in a car-accident while traveling the Tolkien-road, this is my fault. But any imperfections on the road might have helped cause the accident. On a perfect road, no accidents would ever happen. If the spell is broken for the reader, this is the fault of the reader, but also proof of the imperfection of the writing, a perfect writing would be like a perfect road where nobody would ever break the spell or leave the road. I know claiming that LOTR is imperfect is a very bolt statement to make, but it is just the way I see it.
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No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way Last edited by eowyntje; 05-19-2005 at 02:15 AM. |
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#51 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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![]() The author can only do his/her best, & they will fail with some readers some of the time, but unless they fail with all readers at the same point then it must be something in the individual reader that causes the spell to be broken for them at that particular point. Quote:
I suppose what it all comes down to is the question 'What do we mean by 'enchantment'? Is it simply being temproraily convinced by a secondary world so that for a time we forget the primary world? Or does it work a deeper 'magic' on us, opening us up to recieve a 'fleeting glimpse of joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief', to the possibility of the eucatastrophic experience in a particular form? Is it a valid experience? Is it a 'depth' experience - even a spiritual one? And if we talk about the 'reader's desire to be enchanted' that begs a very big question - whence does this desire to be enchanted arise, & why do we seek the experience? Why is there any art at all? |
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#52 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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to davem
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#53 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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If the 'baggage' is unconscious, the reader will not be aware of it and so cannot dwell upon it. The reader will be unaware of how this unconscious reaction informs his or her response. Thus, how will the reader know if this unconscious baggage is shaping the experience of the art or the Art itself? This is a logical problem with the theory that one can completely strip oneself of one's primary world identity and become solely immersed in the secondary world. At best, one can demonstrate and act upon a willingness, a desire to listen, to learn, to understand, but the very unique and individual terms and nature of the submission will in fact be part of how the experience is informed.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#54 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#55 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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Is the text, the beloved, always "she"? Must the reader always assume a (typically) Male posture towards "her"? Is cross-dressing to be allowed? ![]() EDIT: the correct phrase is 'willing suspension of disbelief' ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-19-2005 at 08:29 AM. |
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#56 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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Caught in the act...
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Thread hovering somewhere in the back of my head with something approaching the 'is LoTR as text He or She' title ![]() (On second thought, though, I would probably be pro-she-er, if ever such a thread comes around ![]() Quote:
![]() (blimey, I thought it was suspence, I did. Probably mixed up with sixpense, raising the price of my post thrice)
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 05-19-2005 at 08:13 AM. Reason: reviewing artefact produced with more care... |
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#57 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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My bad, Heren, the full phrase is "willing suspension of disbelief", not 'belief'.
And now that I find myself replying with my own correction, I might as well consider further your thoughts, as the point is not merely erased by the addition of a second pronoun, "he/she". Your entire explanation of the reader's attitude towards the beloved is decidedly cast in the posture of the (possessive) romantic male. Quote:
![]() And I shall offer tuppence rather than penance for my error! (weak, I know, but we can't all partake of masculine rhymes all the time. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#58 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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First of all, it is, I think, an error to claim that we should ignore the unconscious baggage because it gets in the way of the discussion here or because we can't do anything about it. In fact, such a proceeding represents a willful blindness to the main point. There is as much a problem with your model being squewed as the other model suggested here, but you would simply ignore that problem as if it doesn't exist. Second, to chastise the 'reader' model (for want of a better word) as being disrespectful of the original author's intent is to characterise this position incorrectly. The issue is not a deliberate, self-centred idea that only the reader knows best. The issue is that very often the complete and full intentions of the author cannot be fully revealed in any one reading. This is particularly so in the case of an author such as Tolkien whose credo was to make many things implicit rather than explicit: he wanted actively participating readers, for in action lies moral achievement. Nor does this reader model assume that the reader has nothing to learn or refuses to learn, but merely rehashes his or her own prior knowledge. The model you propose is based on logical and psychological impossibilties. It is impossible for the reader to completely wipe out his or her identity and be acted upon solely by a text. Saul on the road to Damascus may have been blinded and become Paul, but did not eradicate all of Saul's nature. There is no going back to Eden, where experience is immediately apprehended innocently and purely. We live not only with the Fall, but with Babel. Thus, any understanding of how a text works with the reader must explain how translation happens rather than ignore the basic need for it, for even speaking the same language requires translation. It requires all the resources which make us human and a willingness to consider the unknown. That does not mean that in reading for pleasure we wipe out all previous experience. There can be no return to an always virginal first reading. All previous reading pleasures come with the reader when he or she embarks upon a new text. Readers might want to put out of mind bad past heartbreaks, and often they do try hard, but short of losing memory that previous experience is always part of the reader. (And even losing memory is no guarantee that the experience will not have some effect.) And they might even be desirous of experiencing past happy love affairs again--that too, with either good or bad possibilties. Why do we reread Tolkien so much? To return to that first experience? Or to see things there we didn't 'see' the first time? One of the paradoxes of reading is that both are probably true, and any explanation of what happens when we enter subcreation has to account for all possible experiences, and not presume one only. I think SaucepanMan hit it right when he said that there is no one right way to legislate reading pleasure. It is not serial monogamy. ![]() A last note: many have contributed here but time and length makes it difficult to address everyone. My thoughts do develop from reading everyone's posts even if I don't mention all and even if I tend to focus on just one or two perspectives.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#59 | |
Beloved Shadow
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You could put cars on a track so all drivers had to do was work the pedals, and people would still rear end each other. Likewise, you could write a "perfect" book, and there would still be people saying things like "I didn't get it", "I couldn't get through it", or "I thought it was boring". On the other hand, there are some people who, despite imperfect roads with potholes, blind driveways, heavy traffic, patches of ice, and the occasional malfunctioning street light, still manage to never crash. Imperfections can be overcome. But, of course, perfection can be overcome as well, so a perfect work of art does not guarantee enchantment.
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the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. |
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#60 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#61 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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A secondary world must not be dependent on the primary world in order to make sense. If it requires us to analyse & interpret it in order for it to make sense then the sub creator has failed, & produced an allegory to some degree or other. All I'm saying is that we should attempt, in the first instance, to experience & participate in the art as fully as we can, & we do that by leaving as much of our (conscious - ie the stuff were aware of rather than the stuff which may or may not exist) baggage at the door. |
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#62 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#63 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Just take the critics' (or Eru forbid the Lawyers' ![]() |
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#64 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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We reread Tolkien because we are seeking the thrill all over again. For some of us, on a re-read we endeavour to recreate that feeling by immersing oursleves in to the world as deeply as possible, losing ourselves in the words. For some of us, on a re-read we seek to find parallels. Neither is wrong. But what would be wrong would be to read the story in the first place seeking to find answers to those things which are in our own world. Why is that wrong? Because we would simply deny ourselves a lot of pleasure. And I would doubt that we would ever return to the book because we would fail to be enchanted. It wouldn't be morally wrong, or anything like that, but it would be a damn shame, and is the primary reason why I am extremely glad that LotR is not a typical book used for study in schools. Quote:
Tolkien's world, as something utterly different to our own, does not need us to have an understanding of the primary world, which is why it is also not necessary to compare aspects of it to the primary world. It is complete in itself. It also appeals to many people of many cultures, suggesting again that due to its contained nature it does not need to explain itself.
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Gordon's alive!
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Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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#66 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Now, Tolkien may have intended that the Shire serve as 'a sort of mediation between the primary world and the rest of Middle-earth' but it won't serve that purpose for every reader, so it has to convince us of its reality within Middle earth - it can't simply be a 'framing device' like the Wardrobe or a spaceship. So, it must be possible, initially, to just experience the Shire as a part of the Secondary World or it will not convince us of its secondary reality - it will come across as simply a means to the end of getting us from the primary to the secondary world. We shouldn't need to bring any prior knowledge or experience to the secondary world in order that it be understandable to us - our experiences (our baggage) should not be required. So, we can just listen to the story being told - no listener will be in a superior position, or better able to experience the story, or have a greater or lesser capacity to be enchanted. In short, whatever your accademic backkground, however 'smart' you are,however many books you've read, you won't be in a superior position to any other reader/listener. Secondly, you can begin to analyse what the author wished to do. Was the approach Tolkien took in presenting the Shire (rather than the Shire itself) intended to serve as a framing device, or to serve a mediatory role by being shown as not all that different from the primary world? Was he making some kind of 'political' statement about how things were better 'once upon a time'? Or is he trying to communicate what he considers to be the 'spirit of the ordinary English person', etc, etc. Is he making use of old beliefs, or trying to account for old traditions - the Shire was established by Marcho & Blanco, England by Hengist & Horsa, etc. Is he making philological 'in jokes' - the name Durin literally meant 'doorward' & the secret door in the mountainside opens magically when the last light of the sun on Durin's day hits the keyhole, etc. That's all very interesting stuff, but doesn't add to the enchantment. In fact, the more of that stuff you are aware of, particularly if you have it in the forefront of your mind as you read, the less likely you will be to fully enter into the secondary world & be enchanted. The same goes for too much awareness of literary technique - if you're constantly analysing the way the story is written you'll never fully immerse yourself in the world the words are creating. Finally, you can start analysing your own responses, bringing in your own feelings, memories & education, all the stuff you've learned & has made you the person you are. Now, I know some will immediatley respond to this by saying that it is the 'person we are' that reads the book, so what I've placed third should (indeed must) come first. I can see this argument, but I think the approach I've described is the one we should strive for - even if we fail to fully achieve it. Also, I have to say that if the art, the secondary world, is sufficiently 'enchanting' we'll find it less of a struggle to do it.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 05-20-2005 at 02:59 AM. |
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#67 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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Is the nature of fantasy/enchantment completely dependent upon this idea of "the strange"? Can fantasy only be about the 'not-yet known and experienced'? If so, then it is doomed always to have diminishing enchantment, for once we know the world, it will no longer be strange. Or are we supposed to throw out our previous readings of the book as "baggage" before we reread? EDIT: (returning to finish after sharing my computer!) However, if we say that enchantment is not a one time experience of the unfamiliar secondary world, but a process of always on-going comparison between primary and secondary worlds (familiar and strange), then we have a sliding scale of exchanges or thoughts. Thus, we need not be limited to a denial of 'baggage' in any reading, and every subsequent reading will have the potential for further enchantment as we see more meaning to the primary/secondary interchange. This will, I think, accounts for Fordim's explanation of Tolkien's process which littlemanpoet lauded in his previous post.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-20-2005 at 08:15 AM. |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 05-20-2005 at 08:11 AM. |
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#69 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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More sober mood this time...
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One may be struck by strangeness at first sight, falling in love. One may than grow to know one's wife/husband, but there always will remain uncertainty and chance of discovering something new. One may grow tired at times, and go play bowling for a change in the evening, but the morning will bring new delight. Quote:
![]() EDIT: Just cross posted with davem. Let his words give more weight to my 'stop bothering' appeal: Quote:
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 05-20-2005 at 08:20 AM. Reason: cross-posted with davem |
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#70 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#71 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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"Lor' help me!"
Let's set aside rancor, friends, okay? Disagree with civility, even if you must admit that you know you won't change the other person's mind despite the fact that you are the one being so reasonable and the other just isn't getting it (I know, a true blow to pride, isn't it?).
The above are Sam's words when he is caught by Gandalf in Shadows of the Past (please forgive me if you've hashed this through in CbC without my knowledge). What "Lor'" is Sam referring to? Having spent all the hours I have here at Barrowdowns has made me aware that this is a potential sore thumb sticking out. Is this a religious reference? Or is it a Shire reference? It could be argued that it derives from the days when there was a King in the North, but I feel that would be a stretch. I think that what we have here is Sam speaking like an English commoner caught redhanded: it's a reference to Christianity, place and simple. And thus it's an error in the text. It broke the enchantment for me. Now, you may argue that it's my theories and baggage that I failed to leave behind, but it is just as much (if my conclusion as to its reference is correct) Tolkien's error. Quote:
More later. I've run out of time. |
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#72 | |||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Or perhaps, in your own words to Drigel (post 41): Quote:
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#73 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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![]() So, what might be better is if I rephrased it as: But what would be ill-advised would be to read the story in the first place seeking to find answers to those things which are in our own world. Quote:
So, while that first step into Middle Earth is not as alien as it could be (it certainly bears more resemblance to our own world than those first scenes of Star Wars, for example), and it provides us with a recognisable mental anchor to remind us of what this quest is all about, it is nothing like a real or tangible place, but more like a bucolic dream or memory altered with the passing of the years. I think Tolkien himself serves to underline that this is a place somehow removed from us by having such oddities as Hobbits, 111st birthdays, a wizard and so on, not things to be encountered in rural England by any means! Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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#74 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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![]() One other example. In Books I and II, the characters are differentiated by different manners and habits of speech. It would be hard to confuse Sam's style of talking with Frodo's or with Gimli's or with Gangalf's or Elrond's. Yet by Book III, Gimli and Legolas are given the same style of speech. Somehow, their distinctive characteristics have been blurred and now they both talk in the same ornate, formal style. It doesn't sound like Gimli at all. The use of dialogue to differentiate characters has gone,to be replaced by the ornate style. I miss the previous Gimli's style. [quote="The Last Debate"] 'Strange indeed,' said Legolas. "in that hour I looked upon Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him. But nobler is his spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Luthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.' 'Beyond the eyes of the Dwarves are such foretellings,' said Gimli. 'But mighty indeed was Aragorn that day. Lo! all the black fleet was in his hands' and he choose the greatest ship to be his own, and he went up into it. Then he let sound a great concours of trumpets taken from the enemy' and the Shadow Host withdrew to the short. There they stood silent, hardly to be seen, save for a red gleam in their eyes that caught the glare of the ships that were burning. And Aragorn spoke in a loud voice to the Dead Men, crying...' This sounds like it ought to be said by the narrator. It sure does not sound like Gimli earlier, in the "The Ring Goes South" where he first speaks about the debacle on Caradhras, nor even in Moria. Surely his discoveries in Moria would have brought out such formal eloquence? No, they don't. So, for me--and I stress that this is my response only and I don't seek to persuade others that this is the only response possible; nor do I criticise those who don't feel this way about my examples--the ornate style takes me out of the enchantment when it contradicts other kinds of style which the book had earlier led me to anticipate. And, yes, I have read Tolkien's Letter # 171 but his comments there are in response to a different point than the one I make here; Tolkien's points don't address what it is that breaks the enchantment here for me. If this be heresy, well, so be it. I still love the books.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-20-2005 at 03:54 PM. Reason: felicities of expression |
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#75 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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The style of language used in RotK is rather high-flown, but we must remember exactly what is happening here. These are grand events, world changing events which are witnessed by many, unlike the other world changing events (e.g. at Mount Doom) which are witnessed by few. Accordingly, Tolkien changed his style slightly here to fit in with such monumental events.
About Eomer's words, I don't find them so strange considering the lengthy verse recited as Boromir's body is sent off down the Anduin; it could be possible that there were established ways of orally reciting laments in Middle Earth. This idea was discussed in one of the CbC threads. Also, in a martial culture such as that of the Rohirrim, composing a few grand lines on the death of a comrade would be quite a common occurrence, and after the death of a King, I wouldn't doubt that solemn lines would come from Eomer quite readily. If we consider that there is also the conceit of the whole tale being taken from the Red Book, as written down by Frodo, then these events are all written down as second hand. Frodo would have taken the accounts from other people, and as is common after such events, hyperbole would have been used to the full. There is further evidence to support this if we also think about how the style reverts to the earlier mode when the tale follows the Hobbits back to The Shire. The style during the scenes in and around Minas Tirith necessarily steps up a gear to reflect the importance of the events taking place, and reverts when we are once again with the Hobbits. I do not find this intrusive, in fact I would never have noticed it before it was mentioned to me, as it fits with the pace of the story.
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Gordon's alive!
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#76 |
Deadnight Chanter
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the beggar
I pondered about an issue and concluded I may be a baggageless man, or the next best thing (language issue, not other allusions). Indeed, I learned my English via Tolkien, and all I've read seemed natural to me at a time. To an extent that my own vocabulary consisted of 'lo!'s and 'deem's at earlier stages, and I've been accused of talking 'archaic garbage' once on another forum. Yet, having little notion of how 'modern English' should sound, I found it normal
On the other hand, the change of style does not break anything for me even now, when I have acquired some bags, for it also seems natural - further hobbits (the nearest thing to modern world to be found in ME) get from the Shire, more olden everything gets. It feels like diving into time, and the deepest levels should contain ancient fish, not found on the surface. I would have been dissapointed if Eomer recited in Bilbo's 'bussinesslike manner' reserved for people trying to borrow from him. That would certainly break the enchantement ![]() Besides, events acquire almost biblical scope towards the end - it is the Black Gate to be passed by the King symbolism, it seems suitable to speak 'high'. (I know I mostly repeat Lalwendë's post here, I just want to add 'Biblical' to the 'to reflect the importance of the events taking place') It uplifts rather than breaks. But individual cases may vary, of course.
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#77 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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'Oh, like, no, man! The King's like dead, dudes! What a bummerrrr!'
![]() ![]() or This is an epic romance not a modern novel.. Quote:
Besides, the all Rohirrim speak in an archaic manner. I actually find it a little more likely that Eomer would find a snatch of that kind of verse in his head at that moment than that Eowyn, on confronting the WK would come out with 'Begone foul Dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!' But I have to say that is analysing after the fact. When I read that chapter I'm so caught up in the events that none of that occurs. I must say that if you're reading The Battle of Pelennor Fields & find the spell is broken by something as 'trivial' as Eomer reciting a few lines of verse that's something I really don't get at all. This is the problem with an 'analytical' reading, when you refuse to just let the story grab you and sweep you along - you're always at a 'distance' from what's happening, always weighing it up & asking yourself whether 'this' or 'that' is convincing. Its like watching a movie on dvd & stopping it every few moments to do a critique of it. Its this approach to reading & re-reading that inevitably lessens the magic of the experience. As far as I'm concerned Eomer recited those lines over Theoden's fallen body in the heat of that battle - & do you know why? Not for the reasons I gave earlier, but because when I read that episode it feels right. |
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#78 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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I have no quarrel with anyone who is happy reading the archaic/ornate style and, as I said earlier, my intention is not to persuade people to my point, simply to respond to the thread topic. However, I would like to make a few comments about some of the points raised.
Lalwendë, you raise several interesting points, but my problem with these passages is not the general need for a more formal style to suit the earth-shattering events. I would be quite happy reading a story with great heterogeneity of style. It is how the style is handled in the particular contexts. Also, I find that we tend to bring in this conceit of the Redbook to explain away many difficulties of the text--do we really at the time of reading say, 'Oh, this is the Redbook's writer writing here and not the story's usual narrator'--do we remember that all in the breathless excitement of reading--but I don't think we've ever really had a thread to examine this conceit closely. Frankly, I don't think it works here as a justification for radical changes to character's style of dialogue. Interesting that you bring in the verses recited over Boromir. That leave-taking scene has always given me a strong sense of the importance in Middle-earth of the rituals of death and remembrance and lamentation. I think some sort of recitation by Éomer would be absolutely fitting and in keeping with the nature of the Rohirrim. All I am saying is that to my ear this passage was abruptly handled and I would, to keep the enchantment up, like more writing devoted to this scene, to establish its tone and tenor. Nothing, I think, can address the issue of why the style of dialogue--one of the fundamental aspects of characterisation in this work--changes so fundamentally. Heren, right you are to point out that you learnt your letters at Tolkien's knee! ![]() I don't wish to belabour my readings. I simply gave in response to littlemanpoet's example some examples of my own and I will now shut up. Interesting that no one here has replied to littlemanpoet's observation that Sam's "lor' help me" is inappropriate to Middle-earth. Any thoughts?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#79 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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The other interesting thing is that on my early readings I never noticed the change in style as something strange or abrupt, and I only notice it now because it has been brought to my attention by other readers. For me, the change in style works without feeling in any way strange.
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Gordon's alive!
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#80 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Tolkien has set up in the foreword the conceit of LotR being a translatioon of the Red Book. It is a work with two main narrators - Frodo & Sam, but we are also told that the accounts have been 'supplimented by the learning of the wise'. We are also informed that the book from which Tolkien 'translated' the story was not the original book but a copy. He even includes an aside by Findegil the King's copyist. What we seem to have then, is a version of the original work, which has been 'supplimented' through various copies & finally translated[ by an Oxford Don in the 1940's. I think these multiple narrators/translators can easily account for variations in style. We are dealing with something akin to the way oral tales change over the years & 'grow in the telling' - albeit to a lesser degree. If the language in the Hobbit focussed part of the story is less 'archaic' & that in the Rohan/Gondor focussed part more so that is perhaps simply because the version Tolkien translated was not the original Red Book but one that came from the scriptorium of Minas Tirith. For Findegil, Gondor & Rohan were known commodities, & also as a Gondorian he would have taken a certain approach to the way his people & their nearest allies were presented in the historical record. Being less familiar with Hobbits (one assumes) he would have been less likely to tamper with those sections of the story, for fear of making a fool of himself. Finally, we have to take into account the character of the ultimate translator, Professor Tolkien himself. He will necessarily bring a certain personal style to his translation. All this, btw, remains within the approach of attempting to experience the story directly, because the figure of 'Tolkien the translator' is just as much a character within the legendarium as any inhabitant of Middle earth. |
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