* * Valaquenta Some proposals for a new project ... * *

[Findegil]

As I work through these text again I found some points missing:

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein Vala-00.3<Vq2 ; and they are therein>.

Even so Christopher Tolkien does not comment on this it seems that he skipt that half sentence editorially. I dont see a good reason for that and would reinstall it.
From the passage about Tulkas:

He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend. Vala-04.5<LQ2 He has great love for {Fionwe, son [>} Eönwë, herald{]} of Manwe.> His spouse is Nessa, the sister of Oromë, and she also is lithe and fleetfooted.

This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Eönwë, I think we should also restore this addition.

Above all the horns of his host it was heard in the woods that Yavanna brought forth in Valinor; for there Oromë would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor. Vala-05.2 {<Vq2 But the Valaróma is not blown, and Nahar runs no more upon the Middle-earth since the change of the world and the waning of the Elves, whom he loved.>} The spouse of Oromë is Vána, ...

Christopher Tolkien does not provide a reason why he removed that sentence, and we did not discuss it as fare as I could find. So my question is why shouldn't we reinstall it?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok in everything, I think that the last sentence must be reinserted, it was written by Tolkien and as you said there's no reason to remove it.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

What about adding the Note on the "Language of the Valar" in the Valaquenta? I think it would be a nice addition.

[Findegil]

I would say yes it might be worth the effort.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I have found a passage in the Note on the Language of the Valar that should be included. It is added into the last paragraph of the section Of the Valar.

These are the names of the Valar and the Valier, and here is told in brief their likenesses, such as the Eldar beheld them in Aman. Vala-05.3 <Q&E Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them. Save only in the case of Oromë.> But fair and noble ...

[Findegil]

Nice find! I will take it up.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

BD-03 / Vala-07.2: In the discussion about chapter 1: ‘Of the Beginig of Time’ Aiwendil supposed an addition from MT, Text VI. He himself speculated that it might batter fit in here. So I proposed these below given placement and editing. We agreed that the ‘Valaquenta’ is the place for it. And that the editing should be discussed here.

Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. Vala-07.2 <MT, Text VI Melkor Vala-07.21{must be made}[was] far more powerfull in original nature Vala-07.22{ (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth')}. The greatest power under Eru Vala-07.23{(sc.} ; he was the greatest created power{)}.[Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth{ (p. 322)}: 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.] Vala-07.24{(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)} >But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It seems there is are a few points from the past 2+ years on this chapter that I have never responded to, so I’ll look at this now.

Vala-00.3: I agree we should include this phrase that Christopher Tolkien skipped.

Vala-04.5:

Originally Posted by Findegil

This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Eönwë, I think we should also restore this addition.

I don’t understand this reasoning. First of all, I believe we decided not to take the addition to the ’77 about Eonwe’s prowess in arms. Moreover, I don’t see why that has any bearing on the sentence at hand. JRRT deleted this statement, and I don’t see a reason to reinstate it.

Vala-05.2: I agree that we should reinstate this phrase deleted by Christopher Tolkien.

Vala-05.3: I like this addition and don’t see any problems with it.

Vala-07.2: I agree that thisi s the best place for this, but I think a little bit more editing is needed to make it fit, since Tolkien was writing notes to himself here, not text intended to stand in a narrative. Perhaps:

Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. For he was Vala-07.2 <MT VI [t]he greatest power under Eru. {(sc. ; he was the greatest created power). [Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth (p. 322): 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.} {(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)}> But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...

What I’ve done is:

- Remove the note “Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature”. This is Tolkien’s note to himself about how he intends to change the character of Melkor; it means nothing within the tale.
- Remove the “sc. he was the greatest created power”, as this is just Tolkien’s explanatory note about what “the greatest power under Eru” means”
- Remove the footnote, which unless I misunderstand is Christopher Tolkien’s note.

[Findegil]

Vala-06: You are right, the discussion here ended with the removal of the phrase about Eönwë being the mighties in arms, so I missed to do that in my working copy. I corrected that now.

Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Eönwë, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?

Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Eönwë, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?

True, there are passages rejected by JRRT that we have nonetheless included, for various reasons, but we have (I think) done so rather sparingly. In this case, I don't see a pressing reason to second-guess Tolkien. And apart from the question of disregarding Tolkien's textual edits, one can ask the standard question: was this element merely omitted or was it rejected? I think it's likely the latter - indeed, I suspect that it might be the change from Fionwe son of Manwe to Eonwe herald of Manwe that led Tolkien to eliminate the special fondness of Tulkas for him.

Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.

OK, that's reasonable. I do think that the passage works better if the two phrases are reversed, though: "he was the greatest created power, the greatest power under Eru". But this may cross the line between permitted outline expansion and forbidden stylistic editing.

[ArcusCalion]

Sending this draft to gandalf, I realized I had made some changes that I had not commented on. I will do so here:

1)

... her more than all others whom Eru made. Vala-0.245 <MT Varda was the most foresighted of all the Valar, possessing the clearest memory of the Music and Vision in which she had played only a small part as actor or player, but had listened most attentively.> Manwë and Varda are seldom parted, and they remain in Valinor. Vala-02.5 <LT With them came many of those lesser {Vali}[Ainur] who loved them and had played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Súruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.> Their halls are above

Since we have elsewhere taken new information from the Book of Lost Tales, and we have used some of the names for the types of the Maiar (such as the Oarni in the Tale of Earendil) I see no reason why we cannot include the information on them here. I also included a small snippet from Myths Transformed, which gives us more info about Varda.

2)

... Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë. Vala-02.7 <LT {with them}With him came the troops of the Oarni and Falmaríni and the long-tressed Wingildi, and these are the spirits of the foam and the surf of ocean.>

This is added in the same vein as the previous addition, and gives an introduction to the Oarni who later appear in the Tale of Earendil.

3)

... Kementári, Queen of the Earth, she is surnamed in the Eldarin tongue. Vala-03.1 <LT {About them}With Aulë and Yavanna fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.>

Another addition in the same vein.

4)

... Mightier than Estë is Niënna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. Vala-04.3 <LT Many other names has she that are spoken seldom and all are grievous, for she is Núri who sighs and {Heskil}[Heskin] who breedeth winter, and all must bow before her as Qualmë-Tári the mistress of death.>

I added these titles of hers in from the Lost Tales, since there is no reason not to. I updated the one that needed updating to LotR style Quenya.

5)

... All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming. Vala-05.25 <LT She is Tuilérë or as the Valar said Vána Tuivána who bringeth spring, and all sing her praises as Tari-Laisi mistress of life.>

Another addition of titles, some of which are later used in other chapters in our current drafts.

6)

.... and of her he learned pity and patience.vVala-06 <LT {Last}To Arda last of all came Ómar who is called Amillo, youngest of the great {Valar}[Maiar], and he sang songs as he came.>

I added this in, since we later mention him in other chapters I believe. I saw no reason to remove him, but I suppose this is a contentious addition and it may be removed.

[Findegil]

We discussed such addition before and rejected them. The reason was that these addition deal with Maiar, while in the places were we would add them, the text deals with the Valar.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Regarding Fin's response to Arcus' first three additions, it is true that Tolkien moved toward a much more structured and delineated approach for this chapter (Elizabeth Whittingham has a good discussion of this in her "Evolution Of Tolkien's Mythology: A Study of the History of Middle-earth"). Maybe we could introduce the lesser spirits later? In Chapter 1, which is where it seems the descriptions of the dwellings were moved? I haven't reviewed that chapter yet, I will see if it makes sense there.

What about the other addition Arcus suggested in 1?

Vala-0.245 <MT Varda was the most foresighted of all the Valar, possessing the clearest memory of the Music and Vision in which she had played only a small part as actor or player, but had listened most attentively.>

This looks good to me.

4) I have problems with this addition. The idea that "all must bow before her" (emphasis mine) and that she is the "mistress of death" does not seem to fit with her character in the revisions, in which she becomes the goddess of pity and compassion and strength and wisdom.

5) and 6) I think these additions work well, especially if these other names are used later.

Regarding Vala-07.2 why not just:

Vala-07.23b{(sc.} He was the greatest created power <moved under Eru.>{)

This is more of a stylistic change, but it seems like consolidating the two sentences is the simplest solution to avoiding redundancy and keeping both ideas.

Regarding Vala-07, the comment about Olorin being humble, I think we should remove the apostrophes as we are not quoting anybody.

[Findegil]

1) Vala-02.45: The addition about Varda from MT is okay for me.

4) Vala-04.3: I think the attributes of being a death goddess were lost for Niënna in the later legendary. So I agree to gandalf85 that this addition is critical.

5) Vala-05.25: Of these names only ‘Tuivána’ is used later. Nonetheless the adition could be considered.

6) Vala-06: Ómar is used later, so we could add him, but I think it was by intention that the sub-chapter ends with Olorin.

Vala-07.23b: In thah way it would mean that Eru was a created power, which is not true.

Vala-07: I am okay with removing the apostrophes.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Perhaps "He was the greatest power created by Eru."

[Findegil]

Vala:
That dosn’t sound right either to me, since it would suggest that there were other creators. To be honest, I do not see the need to remove the redundance between the text and the footnote. It is not a full redundance; otherwise the footnote would useless. In the way it stands the footnote does make the message more specific.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

It does not suggest that at all to be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I was more concerned with the flow of it, since at the moment it is very awkward.

[Findegil]

Vala-07.23: What exactly is awakward on the sentence?

For he was the greatest power under Eru (that means the greatest created power).

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Ah i missed the parentheses and the 'that means.' this does make it flow better.

[Arvegil145]

I found an interesting passage in PE 15, p. 96:

Eriol asks innocently is not Aule him that we call Wéland and they (Rúmil?) laughing says no and tells of Velindo or Gwilion the fay - one of Aule's folk who was sent by Aule into the world to fetch at his need some of the good heavy red gold of the dwarves.

There his pride swelled by reason of the amazement of men and dwarves at his skill; and he never returned to Aule but set up on his own - and was once famous far and wide but with the fading of the fairies his power has waned.

He was not wicked but very vain - Eriol touches on the Böðvildr legend and Rúmil says that if it is true it shows the vanity of Wéland (Niðhad must be a dwarf king).

Mind you, in the early legendarium 'fays' were the precursors of the Maiar.

If we take away the references to Eriol and Rumil, and replace 'fairies' with 'Elves', I think we can incorporate this passage into TNS.

[Findegil]

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

1) I think Velindo/Gwilion fits neatly in Of the Maiar

2) We simply remove all references to Eriol, Rumil, Bodhvildr and Nidhhad - and we only keep the material relating to Velindo and Aule, such as this:

Velindo (or Gwilion) was a Maia of Aulë's folk who was sent by Aulë to Middle-earth to fetch at his need some of the good heavy red gold of the Dwarves.

However, there his pride swelled by reason of the amazement of Men and Dwarves at his skill; and he never returned to Aulë but set up on his own - and was once famous far and wide but with the eventual fading of the Elves his power has waned. While not wicked, he was still very vain.

I may have taken some liberties in the wording, but the gist is the same.


My only problem lies with the name 'Velindo' (and 'Gwilion').

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

Also, what exactly is the problem with 'Manir' and 'Suruli' (aside from linguistics)? Weren't there countless unnamed Maiar in the later legendarium?

According to another PE text (PE 14, 'The Creatures of the Earth', pp. 9-10), there's plenty of minor 'Maiar' ('fay') factions:

1) 'Nermir' - fays (i.e. Maiar) of the meads

2) 'Tavari' - fays (Maiar) of the woods

3) 'Nandini' - fays (Maiar) of the valleys

4) 'Orossi' - fays (Maiar) of the mountains

5) 'Manir' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

6) 'Suruli' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

7) 'Malkarauki' - fays (Balrogs - still probably Maiar)


And yet according to another PE 14 text (simply called 'Valar', p. 10), the 'fays' (i.e. Maiar) are divided into 4 elemental groups: air, earth, water, and fire:

1) Air: 'Manir', 'Suruli'

2) Earth: 'Tavari', 'Nermir', 'Nandini', 'Pelloini' (not seen before), 'Alandri' (not seen before) - while 'Orossi' is missing from the list

3) Water: 'Wingildi', 'Oarni/Oaritsi', 'Nenuvar', 'Ailior', 'Ektelarni', 'Capalini' - not of whom were seen before

4) Fire: - - no entries - - (see below, under 'Sacha')



However, there are also individual 'fays/fairies/early Valar' (i.e. Maiar) named throughout Parma Eldalamberon:

1) Sacha (or Sáya) - the "fire-fay", only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 66)

2) Ailinónë - a 'fay' that dwelt on a lily on a pool, probably one of the Nenuvar, only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 29)

3) Nardi - a 'flower-Vala/fairy', only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 68)

4) Tavros - the chief 'wood-fay', probably one of the Tavari, only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 69)

5) Tethil (or Tetillë) - a 'flower fay' inhabiting poppies, mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 70), as well as the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 92)

[Aiwendil]

Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.

I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.

I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me.

If it makes you feel any better (or worse ), Tolkien later decided to equate Weland with Feanor! See this article on TG that I wrote for further descent into insanity: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/F%C3...nd/F%C3%ABanor


With that said, there are plenty of instances in the early legendarium where famous mythological figures are equated with the characters in Tolkien's stories - for example:

It is then said, somewhat inconsequentially (though the matter is in itself of much interest, and recurs nowhere else), that Eriol told the fairies of 'Wóden', 'Þunor', 'Tíw', etc. (these being the Old English names of the Germanic gods who in Old Scandinavian form are 'Óðinn', 'Þórr', 'Týr'), and they identified them with Manweg, Tulkas, and a third whose name is illegible but is not like that of any of the great Valar.

- The Book of Lost Tales: Part Two, 'The History of Eriol or Ælfwine', outline 10, p. 290

[Arvegil145]

Not directly related, but: Thuringwethil is described as a 'bat-shaped fay' (i.e. Maia) in the Etymologies in The Lost Road, entry THUR-, p. 393.

[Findegil]

I do not find any discussion about Manir and Suruli, and I don't remember what was my reason to remove them, other than that a single mention in the place where they where encountered would only have caused confusion in a reader: If we do not mention and explain what they are, they have to be removed when later mentioned.

I am not agianst all these fay's from the old souces. But to add them in good way, without creativ writing seems to be not easy. Beside that all names of groups and induvidual will need a check if still possible in the later tongue (which I can't do).

Respectfully
Findegil