Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

RD-EX-77.5:
I am okay with "for" -> "since"

§51d:
The symetrie of the warnings is a good argument which I did not consider. we will skip the cruse by the blood stain. But your editing does skip the comma which I think is grammatically needed:

§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold {and the [? staining] of blood in the king's halls}, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

When we made the addition from [bRos[/b] and the Shibboleth we missed a footnote, which I think should be taken:

§316 (§43a) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand].> But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live RD-EX-66 <Sil77 ; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's <editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doritah. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchíl.' He gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same sigificance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín[footnote: ‘Remembrance of Elu’: containing Sindarin rín from Common Eldarin rēnē < base REN ‘recall, have in mind’.], but his daugther the name Elwing For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall by which his house was built. The word wing was Bëorian, meaning fine rain or the spray from fountains and waterfalls blown by a wind; but he joined this to Elvish el- 'star' rather than to the Bëorian, because it was more beautiful, and also went with the names of her brothers: the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

RD-SL-27: Coming back to the discussion about where the battle toke place. There is one new information so it might be considered very thin. In his new book Beren and Lúthien Christopher Tolkien does not provide any new texts, but he gives some comments and some interisting editing. Normaly Christopher Tolkien does in this book not introduce changes to the texts, so that very old names like 'Tinwelint and Gwendeling' stand beside new once like 'Thingol and Melian'. But then we come to the last part of Berens story and the book, where his fight against Naugladur is described. Again old Names like 'Glómund' or 'Lamp of Faëry' for the Silmaril are allowed to stand. But on change in the course of the narrative is done, so not consequently. It starts with an editorial replacement (marked as such) in the first sentence:

Now came all that host [to the river Ascar], and their array was thus; ...

In the original LT text this reads:

Now came all that host to the banks of Aros, and their array was thus; ...

And in the LT the battle was at the ford over the River Aros that marked the southern boundary of Artanor. And in the rest of the extract from LT the name 'Aros' is allowed to stand.

What this showes, in my oppinion, is that for Christopher Tolkien the ford that was the palce of Berens last fight was that over the river Ascar and not that over Gelion/Duin Daer as we used it. If it changes something or not is up to the farther discussion of this case. But at least I think this is worth considering the case again.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: This is the only case that I could find in Beren and Lúthien that is worth mentioning for the project.

[ArcusCalion]

I would say that this is merely his opinion, as he presents no new information to back up that change, and he has been known to make mistakes of this kind before.

[Findegil]

No question that is only Christopher Tolkiens opinion. I never said otherwise. But in a case like this, where we long debated and did take the decision in the end based on the feeling of the participants of the discussion, Christopher’s opinion is at least worth notice.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

As I posted in the other thread Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin, the footnote of CT in Beren and Lúthien is troubling in its implications for this text:

A later version of the story concerning the Nauglamír told that it had been made by craftsmen of the Dwarves long before for Felagund, and that it was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol. The task that Thingol then set the Dwarves was to remake the Nauglamír and in it to set the Silmaril that was in his possession. This is the form of the story in the published Silmarillion.

I am unsure if there was proof of there being an extant story of this nature before this, but if there was and it was discussed then I apologize for bringing this up again.

[Aiwendil]

RD-SL-27: I've just read through our discussion of this from years ago, and it is such an obscure and complex issue that I can easily believe that a reasonable person could come to either conclusion based on the evidence we have. In the end, I still think I agree with the conclusion we adopted. But I am still far from 100% certain about this conclusion. Christopher Tolkien's opinion is obviously not to be simply discounted, but without any new evidence I don't see any particular reason to change our conclusion. I remain unsure, though, and could certainly be persuaded by a strong argument one way or the other.

About the Nauglamir:

This is indeed puzzling and has potentially very important repurcussions for our text. In particular, I find it difficult to reconcile this statement with two things from "The Wanderings of Hurin".

Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien

For the story of the Nauglamîr and the destruction of Doriath, the fall of Gondolin, the attack on the Havens, we must return through more than a quarter of a century to the Quenta Noldorinwa (Q), or beyond.

This would seem to state that no version of that story later than Q exists.

Some interesting remarks of my father's concerning The Wanderings of Húrin are found on the back of one of the slips on which Professor Clyde Kilby wrote comments and criticisms of the work:

"The criticisms seem to me largely mistaken - no doubt because this is a fragment of a great saga, e.g. Thingol and Melian are mentioned as objects of Morgoth's malice, because Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath. The outlaws are not a 'device', but already accounted for - and play a part in the story of Túrin when he came to Dor Lómin. Húrin does pick them up again and they are the nucleus of the force with which he goes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm and seizes the gold of the dragon.

As for 'too little action,' 'too much speech', I have re-read this quite impersonally after many years when I had practically forgotten it - the speeches are bitter and pungent and in themselves exciting. I thought the whole business from the entry of Húrin not only moving but very exciting."

The reference to Thingol and Melian arose from Professor Kilby's taking exception to their only being mentioned in one place (p. 259). The response that his remarks (written, I believe, in 1966) elicited is particularly interesting in that they show that the story of Húrin's seizing the treasure of Nargothrond was still fully in being, although my father never even approached it again. Very striking is his phrase, 'Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath'.

This indicates that, at least as of 1966, Tolkien intended Hurin to be accompanied by a band of men on the journey to Nargothrond and, since he "seizes the gold of the dragon", it would certainly seem that at this point it is the full hoard, not just the Nauglamir, that is brought to Doriath.

In the absence of any further evidence of this "later story", I don't think it would be wise for us to change the story here.

[ArcusCalion]

I agree with your conclusion because, as you say, CT has provided no documentation to back up his comments in B&L and the Sil77 story, so it is clearly safer to go with the earlier story in as much as keeping the outlaws and hoard and such. However, in the current text as it exists we have provided no story of the Nauglamír's creation. Might we then take only that part from the Sil77 version while keeping the rest the same?

[Aiwendil]

But if we discount this statement by Christopher Tolkien without further evidence, then shouldn't we keep the story that the Nauglamir was not made until Thingol commissioned the Dwarves to craft the gold?

[ArcusCalion]

My bad, I didn't notice the story was already included. In the current draft, it reads thus:

Many things were told of that most glorious thing. Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had an enchanted power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the Valar. Yet alas, even had that gold of Nargothrond held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.
Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of Thingol king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the Nauglamír about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. ...

Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.

[gondowe]

I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.

Editing: On the other hand, It would be a step back from CT in what he said in the famous note on the chapter of the ruin of Doriath in Sil77 published in WotJ that everybody knows.
(I'm going to be evil: can anybody have access to a modern edition of TWotJ, to see if that famous note was erased, of course not by CT decision, but editorial decision?)

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.

Oh, I see - we somehow never name the necklace when it first appears. I would have no real objection to adding something like what you suggest. Though if it is not named when first made in the LT text, perhaps we should leave it that way.

Originally Posted by gondowe

I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.

Yes, but I think the two main issues are:

1. Christopher Tolkien doesn't tell us what this presumed text says or when it dates from.
2. The statement in Beren and Luthien appears to contradict what Christopher Tolkien said in HoMe XI.

1 means that even if we wanted to follow this text, we would not know exactly how to implement it, other than lifting text directly from QS77. 2 means that at some point, either in HoMe XI or in Beren and Luthien, CT apparently made a mistaken statement about this. What he says in HoMe XI is backed up by the texts given there. The fact that we have in B&L only this one mention of a text otherwise uncited suggests that it's at least possible that CT was mistaken in his statement there.

In the end, I just think that this one contradictory statement is awfully shaky ground on which to make such a major change.

[ArcusCalion]

The original Lost Tale reads thus:

These things were of Ufedhin's cunning, but the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for Tinwelint, and a belt of gold.
Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: "All is not finished," and Ufedhin made a silver crown for Gwenniel, and aided by the Dwarves contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle he made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them. Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said Ufedhin: "O Tinwelint, richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?" And he said: "Yea"; but Ufedhin said: "Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves." Then again did Tinwelint doubt Ufedhin's purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.

This was taken up into the draft text thus:

And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold {remaineth still, for} we {have husbanded it}did husband, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we {desire}desired that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.{ Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves.}’>

The last part was removed, because according to the structure of the chapter as it was laid out, the work has at this point already been finished. However this structure is not ideal for two reasons. 1. No point is made about Thingol handing the Silmaril over to them to be added into the necklace, and even tho it is said that he sits beside them as they work on the necklace, it is in this scene presented as if it were a surprise to him. I see no real reason why we cannot keep the two stages of the treasure making present in the Lost Tales, with the Nauglamir being the second stage. Maybe like this:

... be wanting in your labor, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’> {§297 (§28a)} RD-EX-36b <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’ Then {again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}their purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5 <TN Now after a time of rest was that last smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5 <QS77 Long was their labor; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked{.}><editorial addition on the necklace.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN {Now}Then however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>

This way we keep everything necessary, while maintaining the flow better. Thoughts?

[Aiwendil]

This looks good to me. On small note is that looking again at RD-EX-36.5, I don't think the editorial addition is actually needed. It's clear from the previous paragraph that they are working on the necklace.

But I think your idea of retaining the two stages of treasure making is good, as it better retains the structure of the Lost Tale and I don't see any of the later, very brief, accounts as contradicting it.

[Findegil]

I have re-read a great deal in this thread and in the story line discussion, but it seems that we never discussed that note in BL explicitly. The fitting editing mark in the story line discussion was FD-SL-13.
Anyhow I agree with Aiwendil: the note contradicts strongly with what Christopher Tolkien had written in HoME XI and since HoME XI is rather a work of research in the textual history in comparison to BL, I wonder how serious we can take that note from BL.
For reason of comparision we might look to the Narn texts: from UT and all HoME versions it is made clear by Christopher Tolkien that farther texts are extant, so what we find then in The Children of Húrin his take at this farther texts. In that full narrative we can find passages that are clearly based on these unpublished sources. Compared to that in BL we have only compiled extracts from already published sources and some very few and some times a bit obscure editorial notes, like the one we discuss here. If the note is really based on some unpublished source, why doesn't Christopher take the opportunity to give it in full?
I am inclined to think that the note is rather based on a false memory.

About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.

You're right; I didn't review our text sufficiently. I think the two phases of smithying could be retained (i.e. I don't think it's necessarily contradicted by more authoritative sources), but I don't think it has to be. So I'm fine with staying with the version we have.

[ArcusCalion]

I see the difficulty, but I still have two points.

1) I found it jarring the way the name of the necklace is introduced in our text. Can we at least say

.. and he cast the {Nauglafrin}[Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves] around his throat ..

This, for me, keeps the title and makes it more introductory. It's introduced this way in Lost Tales, with its translation.

2) For me the text as it stands is odd: the Dwarves present the Nauglamir as if it was a surprise, but it was essentially the driving force of Thingol's contract with them, and was there watching them make it. Why then do they have to explain that they kept a part of gold in order to make a necklace. I suppose they could simply be being ceremonial, but it seems odd to me. Perhaps I am simply reading into it too much.

[Findegil]

First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:

Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …

In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.

Now to the matter of the second smthying, I can see the oddness of the naming, as why should it be the Necklace of the Dwarves when all the stones and specially the Silmaril are elvish? And yes the flow of Arcus Calion’s version is better. In addition if, as Aiwendil put it, the two phases of smithying are not ‘contradicted by more authoritative sources’ we actually have to retain them.
But as I mentioned the dwarves can at the end of the first phase not ask Thingol for the allowance to smith the Nauglamír as a ‘boon’, since he already ordered them to make it. Nonetheless seems it very fitting to me that the Dwarves should first show their talent on lesser works and then ask Thingol to deliver the Silmaril since now they would like to start that work he had asked for. And in that way we as well get a chance to reinstall Thingols request to be present while the dwarves made the necklace:

§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29 <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for {much}[a part] was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
§295 (§26) RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them }summons, and he declared to them his desire>.
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35 <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold that remains to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39b <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old. Cups and goblets did the king behold, and some had double bowls or curious handles interlaced, and horns there were of strange shape, dishes and trenchers, flagons and ewers, and all appurtenances of a kingly feast. Candlesticks there were and sconces for the torches, and none might count the rings and armlets, the bracelets and collars, and the coronets of gold; and all these were so subtly made and so cunningly adorned that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].>
RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee {a}that carcanet thou has asked for and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have now that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded.{ Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest}Thus was that last smithying begun{ in a deep place of Tinwelint’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses}, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

For me this is perfect! It addresses all the concerns and flows far better than the original. I only have one gripe, and it is a new one:

yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old.

This for me cannot work. We have said in other places that Finrod brought the most treasure out of Valinor, and so this can hardly be compatible. Therefore I think we should remove the later half of the sentence:

yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous {far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}.

[Aiwendil]

This looks good to me. I also think ArcusCalion is probably right that we must remove this reference to the scantiness of the treasure of Nargothrond.

One small correction. In RD-EX-40:

thou has asked for

Should be:

thou hast asked for

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …
In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.

I had not re-read that sentence in TWotJ, so I want to say one thought:

I also think that the band of Húrin with the whole treasure carried to Menegroth and the making of the Nauglamir there (not in Nargothrond) is the best solution and is the one I want to follow. But, taking that CT reaffirms,in 2017, the solution taken in Sil77, I don't know if we are correct.
I mean that possibly CANON Sli77 is fixed by CT NOW.
Thougts?

Greetings

[Findegil]

I agree to both changes, the one in RD-EX-40 ‘thou has asked for’ => ‘thou hast asked for’ and the one in RD-EX-39 concerning the scanty treasure of Nargothrond. (Actually I think we discussed that one before and the reinstallation was a mistake of mine during the editing of the new passage.)

Posted by gondowe:

But, taking that CT reaffirms, in 2017, that solution taken in SIL77, I don’t know if we are correct. I mean that possibly CANON Sil77 is fixed by CT NOW.

Christopher Tolkien has made very clear that we will never see a substantially updated ‘Silmarillion’ from him. If that makes Sil77 to canon, than most of our work is void and useless.
That said, I can nonetheless see your argument. But I don’t see it in that way:
For me the note in BL is rather a ‘justification’ than a ‘reaffirmation’ for the version in Sil77. A reaffirmation or even confirmation would have been if Christopher Tolkien would have included the note with the Nauglamír made in Nargothrond and so on, as a component of the story as reconstructed in BL. But that is exactly what he didn’t. He rather follows his own suggestion how his father would have handled the story, that he uttered in HoME XI as far as the existing texts allow.
But alas, it is a rather complex matter. In BL Christopher Tolkien does not use (as we do in our version or he does in HoME and Sil77) short notes to reconstruct the story. The components used in BL are rather long excerpts of full texts that are minimally edited.
So some doubts remain, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

Respectfully
Findegil

Yes, so do I.
But my doubts are that possibly that note exists and the story used in Sil77 (I mean of canon Im speaking only inthis matter) I insist, is reaffirmed.
Im thinking in those people who potentially read our versions, and could be confused about an authorised modern book compared with ours.
Don´t know. Are my doubts, fears, thougts...

Greetings

[Findegil]

Maybe I was not clear enough in my last post, so I will try again:
- Yes, I believe that a note exists that contains the story of the Nauglamír made for Felagund and being the sole treasure brought from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin. For easier and clearer farther reference let us name that note ‘text X’.
- Yes, I agree that the confirmed existence of ‘text X’ gives more weight to the version of the story told in the Sil77.
- And it is clear that if, we come to the conclusion, that this version of the story, is to be taken, the actual text of Sil77 is the one and only option, because it is the best representation of the content of ‘text X’ that we have.
But as we don’t have any farther information about ‘text X’ and its timing or circumstances of writing or anything else concerning it, we must base our decision about it on something else. For me it seems that, the only choice we have as measure for that judgment is the treatment of ‘text X’ by Christopher Tolkien.
So how does Christopher Tolkien treat ‘text X’:
A) Christopher Tolkien used in the years 1974-75 ‘text X’ as basis for the story in Sil77.
B) He does not give ‘text X’ in HoME. Even in HoME XI; A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath (published in 1994), where a very fitting place would have been for it, he does not more than hinting very unspecific to ‘a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published’. So what he did was summarizing the story as found in Sil77, so that the features of ‘text X’ are given together with features for which ‘there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’.
C) He does mention its existence and content of ‘text X’ in the footnote in BL (published 2017), but does not give it in full nor base the story told in that book on its content.
As can be expected B) gives some background information on A):
b1) Christopher Tolkien speculates that JRR Tolkien ‘ would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (II.113-15, 222-3) as the bearers of the treasure’. Which means, that Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father would not have used the content of ‘text X’ for his ‘final’ story. This speculations is backed up by late (1966) writings concerned with The Wanderings of Húrin.
b2) Christopher Tolkien confirms that there had been much ‘experimentation among alternative conceptions’ and that the final text of Sil77 ‘owes much to my [Christopher Tolkien’s] discussions with him [Guy Gavriel Kay]’. Guy Gavriel Kay was for sure NOT onboard of these discussions due to his special knowledge about the textual history of the story or his good judgments about what JRR Tolkien would have done – for such matters Christopher Tolkien was for sure the better judge. Mr. Kay told us in an interview with The Guardian that Christopher Tolkien ‘saw the editing process in the classic ‘senior academic working with the bright young graduate student’ way, which is the template for so much academic work.’ Nonetheless since Mr. Kay became later a fantasy author, his input was most probably on the ‘literary value’ of the ‘alternative conceptions’.
In the end C) Indeed changes some possible interpretations of B) and has to be interpreted in itself:
c1) Since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ the first major criticism utter in B) that, the story in Sil77 ‘is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’, does not apply to the features told in ‘text X’ (Nauglamír made for Felagund in Nargothrond, Nauglamír being the sole treasure brought to Menegroth by Húrin). (As we discussed that matter first before the publication of BL, I think we all based on the second part of B) were under the impression that there was no ‘text X’ in existence.)
c2) As well as the first criticism (see c1)) the last, that with creating the story as given in Sill77 he was ‘far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function’, does not apply to the features of ‘text X’, since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ and choosing between alternative texts is the function of an editor.
c3) In BL Christopher Tolkien for the first time edits the presented story as ‘history in sequence’ as he named it. That makes the text together with the note fully ambivalent of what was the ‘true’ story.

All that ‘facts’ collected, what do I make out of it?
The clear statement of C) is that using the text of Sil77 in the matter of the Nauglamír and what part of the Nargothrond treasure came to Doriath is an reasonable option for us (which it had not been before). But in b1) I see a hint that ‘text X’ was older than 1966, otherwise the features of ‘text X’ would have been a way out of the difficulties that the story as told in Q30 represent. As we do with writings of JRR Tolkien, we as well should do with such of Christopher Tolkien: His knowledge about the texts of his farther would have become greater with longer studying time. Therefore B) does have much more weight for me than A). Specially

[gondowe]

Findegil, Thank you for your detailed analysis of the matter. My lack of time and not having access to my original books prevents me from analyzing it correctly, although I could never expose it in the same way that you did.
But in the end, in summary, is what I think.
The only thing that bothers me is, as I said, the mention of CT in BT of the Sil77 decision. Obviously I would have liked that CT had remade the Silmarillion in the same way that we did but unfortunately it was not like that. I do not know if his heirs will ever do it (or even be done, waiting for the appropriate time for publication), (I am completely sure that our work never went unnoticed by the Tolkien Estate and CT).
Anyway, I agree with our common decision.
Now, considering your last sentence, the only thing we could do is decide if the Nauglamír was done or not for Felagund.
Now I'm not, as I said, (nor was I, nor will I be in the future unfortunately, because I also have a problem in the eyes that is going over and I do not know how I will finish in the next few years), in conditions to analyze it by my same.

Thank you and Greetings

[Findegil]

I started this posting some time before the death of Christopher Tolkien. But as it has happened now, this seems to be a kind of showing respect to him and his work; even so I am sure that we all have had that before.
Coming back to the matter of the Nauglamír made for Finrod. I have reread all the text we have and our discussions. And looking at it with grater distance, this might be again a case where we were driven away from the ture solution by the fact that our editing has a lot of very fine details, which would a shame to be lost. The result I came to now mihgt be a relieve for some (lindil are you still with us) and a no go for others. Therefore as always, please feel free to disagree with me.
I will use my references from posting #64:
‘[b]text X[b]’: A note containing the story of the Nauglamír made for Finrod and being the sole treasure brought by Húrin to Menegroth.
A) Christopher Tolkiens treatment of the Story in Sil77.
B) Christopher Tolkiens not giving us ‘text X’ in HoME and his A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath.
C) The footnote from B&L.

For all we know ‘text X’ does only stat two things:
1. The Nauglamir was made for Felagund by Dwarves long before the Fall of Doriath
2. The Nauglamír was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol.
That said ‘text X’ does not contradict the following features of other sources:
- Húrin had a band of followers, when he came to Nargothrond.
- The followers took the complete horad from Nargothrond.
- Húrin followers died by querrals on the way.

Of course it is ture as Christopher Tolkien said that it ruines the gesture if Húrin must fetch Thingols help to get the treasure to Menegroth with which he then tries to humiliate Thingol. And to reinstall the battle between Húrins men and Thingols Elves is as well out of question. But what if ‘text X’ was Tolkiens way out of this dilema:
Húrin took only the Nauglamír as it was the single most valuable pice, but his men took the complete treasure from Nargothrond. But then they where killed by quarrels on the way.
Lets set that part out first:

§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <QS77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'
RD-EX-08b<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'O RD-EX-09.1{Úrin}, little did I think to{ see thee,} a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that RD-EX-09.2{he bid them seize it all, and }Mîm {stood by and watched, and he }broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life. RD-EX-11.5c <QS77 Then you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'
Then Mîm in great fear besought Húrin to take what he would, but to spare his life; but Húrin gave no heed to his prayer, and slew him there before the doors of Nargothrond.>
§278 (§6) But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed. RD-EX-11.51b<TT
><Lay of the Children of Húrin The dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[traitorous Mîm] __ by a {beech}[tree] standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the {tree}[beech]. [5]
He bargained {the blood __ of his brothers} for gold [__ the blood of his guests] {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by {an orc-}[a cruel ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
RD-EX-11.52<QS77 Then {he}Húrin entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but it is told that when Húrin came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only.>
RD-EX-11.53 <TT Then {Úrin wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he}[Húrin] bid {them}his men seize {it }all the treasure of Nargothrond.>
RD-EX-24b TN Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place; and some thereof was wrought to cups, to basons, and to dishes, and hilts there were for swords, and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers; but RD-EX-26 {the most}a part was of red gold unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}[the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
RD-EX-11.54<§279 TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
§280 (§9) TT Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and {some}[much] was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.> (§8) RD-SL-05b {And}For the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went {unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves}on.

Comments on the changes:
RD-EX-08b: I adde this marker only for clearness of reference.
RD-EX-09.1: I have skipt the reference to Húrin in Mîm’s answer. How could Mîm idntify Húrin as up to that point he did not name himself. And if he did why would he fear for his life at once?
RD-EX-09.2: Okay, here the real changes begin. I moved the taking of the treasure to a later point to give Húrin a chance to go in alone and catch the Nauglamír, so it is for the worth of Húrins men that made Mîm start his cursing.
RD-EX-11.5c: At this point only, when he had launched his attaked Mîm that Húrin does reveal his identiy to Mîm.
RD-EX-11.51b: I think this slow dying of Mîm we have already discussed.
RD-EX-11.52: Now Húrin goes in alone to catch the Nauglamír. This is not necessarly the story as told in ’Text X’ but it is the best text that we can use.
RD-EX-11.53: This addition is necessary to tell that in the end the hoard was taken by Húrins men.
RD-EX-24b, RD-EX-26 & RD-EX-27: I moved this from the point where in the Lost Tales the treasure was described in Menegroth to here, because otherwise we have no description of the hoard left in our story.
RD-EX-11.54: I inserted that marker only for clearness of reference with the new additions. And I changed ‘some was lost’ to ‘much was lost’ since now only the Nauglamír that Húrin carried himself came in the end to Menegroth.
RD-SL-05b: The change form ‘And’ to ‘For’ at the beginning makes this to an explaintion why much of the treasure was lost. And at the end I changed the text so that Húrin does not begged help for the transport but goes to Menegroth alone and with only what he had chosen as specially precious and ‘usefull’ for his plan.

As Húrins men were killed on the way, so the hoard was lost. So in the end only Húrin came to Menegroth and he carried only the Nauglamír, This of course makes some changes necessary in the farther text:

RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Doriath
>§281 (§10a) RD-SL-06b <TT Yet in the end {that laden host}Húrin alone came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts{,’ and}.’ And when this was done{.}>, <Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>
§282 (§10b) RD-EX-12b <TT {Then Úrin let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and Tinwelint}[Thingol] greeted {Úrin}[Húrin] with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he said: ‘Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words - but say only, where is {Mavin}[Morwen] my wife, and knowest thou what death did {Nienóri}[Niënor] my daughter die?’>
§283 (§11) RD-EX-13 <QS77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> RD-EX-13.5 <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14b <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against {Glorund}[Glaurung] the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], sweetly on my {gifts}gift, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>
RD-EX-17b <QS77 Húrin {made no answer to the King, but }drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing which he had taken with him out of Nargothrond; and that was no lesser treasure than the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, that was made for Finrod Felagund long years before by the craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost, most famed of all their works in the Elder Days, and prized by Finrod while he lived above all the treasures of Nargothrond. And Húrin cast it at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.
‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men, RD-EX-15b <TT bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm.>{and} And I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath! RD-EX-15c <TT Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
§285 (§15) Yet Thingol would not take the RD-EX-17.5{hoard, and long he bore with Húrin}necklace; but now {Húrin scorned him,}RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me - and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cuiviénen] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee’ - but he forebore to slay or to bind {Úrin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>
§286 (§16) RD-SL-07 {and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth;}<QS77 {then he}Then Húrin turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>
§287 (§17a) RD-EX-20b <TN {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that Mîm {the fatherless }had woven about that dragon hoard that, even as {it}the Nauglamír lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.>

RD-SL-06b: Here I changed ‘the laden host’ to ‘Húrin alone’.
RD-EX-12b: Here Again Húrins men are skipt.
RD-EX-14b: At the end of this § we have to change ‘gifts’ to the singular ‘gift’ of the Nauglamír.
RD-EX-16: Is gone since it was a change in a part that spoke about Húrins men.
RD-EX-17b: I tooke more of Sil77 as it is here the best representation oft he content of ‘text X‘.
RD-EX-15b & RD-EX-15c: These two pessages from TT I have introduced into the Sil77passage.
RD-EX-17.5: Of course this reference to the horad must be changed to the necklace alone.
RD-EX-20b: Here again we have to change the reference. I found ‘that horad’ is no longer sufficient as now only the necklace is actually present.
RD-SL-08 to RD-SL-10: All the rest of this sub-cahpter dealt with Húrins men and is therefore gone.

In the Rest of the chapter only smaller references must be changed:

RD-EX-21 <WH
The Nauglamír
Necklace of the Dwarves
>§291 (§22) RD-EX-22b <TN Now came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this {gold}necklace, for my heart tells me it is RD-EX-23b trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by {thy}his lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
§292 (§23) RD-EX-24b TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade {gather it up and }cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him.>
...
§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29b <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon {gold}[hoard] began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the {gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a }marvellous necklace of great beauty {they should make, whereon }to hang the Silmaril theron.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
...
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35b <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained}the Necklace and the Stone, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the {gold that remains}Nauglamír and the Silmaril to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest{ was that last smithying begun in a deep place of Tinwelint's abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-40b <TN {Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then} said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, {dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but Ufedhin said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this:} we would {make}remake thee {a}[that] carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5c <TN {Now after a time of rest}Thus was that {last }smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
...
...
...
§303 (§29) RD-EX-46b <TN Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron,> and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<QS77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and }demanded that he yield {it}[the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying:> RD-EX-47 <TN ‘Nay then, ...
...
...
...
§322 (§46d) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Daer], and their array was thus: first a number of unladen Dwarves most fully armed, and amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of RD-EX-74.5{Glorund}[Thingol], and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Daer] on their day of doom.>
...
...
...
§329 (§51a) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <QS77 And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], the Goldenbed.>
§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79b <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard{ of Glorund, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.
...
...
...
§334 (§51f) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon RD-EX-81.5{the treasure and }upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned {indeed }in the river {Ascar, and named it anew} {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} <moved from above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>

RD-EX-22b: I changed ‘gold’ to ‘necklace’ so that might be a bit over down here, since the necklace is of gold.
RD-EX-24b: The necklace is nothing to be gathered up.
RD-EX-29b: This must be changed for we have no longer any unwrought gold, so that the only tasked for the Dwarves is the re-fashioning of the necklace.
RD-EX-35b: Again there is no unwrought gold, so the plan of the dwarves only metioned implicit here would have been to feign that they would do the work in Nogrod and return with the finished product.
RD-EX-36b: In the beginning I put in a bit more of this passage in, since it seems clear that the dwarves are forced by Thingol to remain in Menegroth.
RD-EX-37 to RD-EX-39: This was the first smithing of the unwrought gold from the dragon hoard and the description of its results. It must go in the new story.
RD-EX-36b & RD-EX-40b: As these came together now we have to adapt the end and the begining accordingly.
RD-EX-40.5c: There is no longer a first smithying, so this one can nolonger becalled the last.
RD-EX-46b: In the version with the Nauglamir made for Thingol we had to change the passage from Sil77, but now that is no longer necessary.
RD-EX-74.5: What the Dwarves carry is no longer the hoard of Glaurung but the plunder of Menegroth.
RD-SL-27: I did not change this, since we already used the phrase from Sil77 unchanged.
RD-EX-79b: Again it is no longer the hoard of Glaurung, but here the change is simply to remove Glaurung since the reference is clear enough.
RD-EX-81.5: The treasure that is drowned in the River is no longer the accursed hoard of Glaurung so we have to change the reference here to the Nauglamír alone and in the next sentence the ‘indeed’ makes no longer any sense.

Again, please feel free to disagree with me. The first and foremost point for the discussion should be if my idea of combining the Nauglamír made for Finrod and carried all the way from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin himself and the story of his companions periching by feuds on the way together with consequent loss of Glaurungs hoard seems plausible.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Findegil. Now I come to this thread and after so long I am going to answer about what I think and what I always worry about. I think the solution is correct based on what you had explained in detail above. It is a wording similar to the one I developed after the discussion. But in the meantime the famous text "lost" for the public in an auction "Concernig .... The Hoard" enclosed by him in a 1964 letter to Eileen Elgar (together with Kinship of the Half-elven) came to mind. According to Cristina Scull the story closely follows Q30 with some differences: for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conce...27The_Hoard%27

Have you thought about this?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Hi gondowe,

I did not know of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'. Therefore many thanks for point this text out to me. The small info we have about its content does change a lot.

At least it renders my last idea, about Hurin carrying the Nauglamir while his band perishes and so left the Horad of Nargothrond behind use less.

The 'two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian' might or moght not be related to the note in which Thingol himself goes beyond and is killed outside. Too sad we don't have that text in full. I have reread some of our editings and consider farther the implications of what we know about Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes. It's a pity the private text. Alas!!! Could its owner be less selfish? We only ask for a copy !!!!
In any case I think it is the most prudent thing to do as long as this text does not come to light to remain with the prudent option of having Húrin take only the Nauglamir to Thingol while his outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard. And make 'no story tells how Thingol got out of the Girdle of Melian', in my humble opinion.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Posted by gondowe:

... outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard.

This is in my view problematic. We have now a statement from Concerning ... 'The Hoard' that at least a considerable part of the unwrought metalls from Nargothrond reached Menegroth, since the Dwarves agreed that only a tenth from that should be their payment. So if, as Christina Scull told as, Concerning ... 'The Hoard' follows Q30, then we have their again the Húrin destroying his own gesture by fetching help from Thingol to carry the Hoard.

Concerning ... 'The Hoard' has block the way out of that dilema that I imagined. I could invent a clever solution in which Hurin only comes alone and with the Nauglamir after his man have died in quarrels. Seenig that the necklace could only come from the Hoard, adventures from Doriath could go in search for the Hoard, find it and carry it to Menegroth. But inventing is not the way we work here.
We could imaging, that Hurin when he first came tto the boarder, did not go to Thingol but recived help from the boarder-wardens. But that still is inventing a fact in Middle-Earth without a source from Tolkien.

Thereare in my view two question we have to answer:
A. I think we are left with the choice to let Hurin get help from Thingol and if that destroyes the gesture, so what? It was Tolkiens solution not ours. Or we can stay with the solution we found in the first instance: that the Outlaws came to Menegroth but left in peace with part of the Hoard.

B. In both cases we could still let Hurin chose a pre existing Nauglamir as a special part, that he carried hinself and used effectfully in Menegroth. And I think this is actually the second question we have to answer: When and for whom was the Nauglamir wrought?

For A I tend more and more to following Q30 since Concerning ... 'The Hoard' seems to support that version.

For B I think that Text X that we agreed exists does lead us to the Nauglamir beeing made originally for Felagund.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

What you're saying's correct. You cannot invent anything. And we must be frustated with this lack of an important text. But what I mean is that as long as we don't have the text of Concerning .... The Hoard we should focus on what we do have. And the last thing would be the very authoritative idea (even knowing that CT did not know the text of C .. TH when he composed Sil77) published by CT in Sil77 based on Note X. And C. Scull's observation that in general lines follow the Q30 can be in very general lines.
I would like to have the opinion of more people about it.
In any case I'll rethink again to preserve the Nauglamir made first for Finrod and the bringing of the full Hoard to Menegroth.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/...Popular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ISmd8laFM/edit

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/...Popular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ISmd8laFM/edit

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

Sure, make a thread if you want - I'm not really active on the forum anyway, I just remembered this project and wanted to share my find (which I stumbled upon on r/tolkienfans).

[Findegil]

Okay, so in view of what is found in the actual text of Concerning ... 'The Hoard', it seems we sought all the time an answer for the wrong question: The question is not, how to get rid of the Outlaws? It is rather how to get rid of the constant fighting in Menegroth?

And only Tolkiens first answer was to get rid of the Outlaws and then he changed his mind (because what he had done destroyed the gesture of Húrin) and skipt the fight between the Dwarven smiths and the Elves. And by that making the Dwarves even more respectable and Thingol even more foolish and spell-driven. It is a pity Christopher Tolkien did not know that text when he published Sill77; HoME and probably B&L.

And the next arcaine question is how the dating of Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is relative to Text X.

However that short text will bring a lot of change in this chapter and some details for others. Maybe it can wake some new intrest in this now very long resting project!

Respectfully,
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello everyone. I already explained in The Books section that regarding the manuscript, I have doubts about its dating.
The doubt arises mainly from the mention of the Sons of the Valar, in 1964.

Either way, this changes the story treatment of The Ruin of Doriath. Mainly regarding the outlaws and Thingol's death.
But we continue, or at least I continue, with the doubt of who the Nauglamir was made for, Thingol or Finrod. We continue with the question of text X (or the conversation with his father X). That could have been written or made after 1964.
My initial proposal would be to adopt the plot line of C..TH, adapting the BoLT text, but keeping the authorship of the Nauglamir for Finrod. I would, without any other evidence, to give CT the credibility it deserves.
What is your opinion?

Greetings

[Findegil]

We have seen JRR Tolkien before using phrases like 'the Sons of the Valar' long after he had abonded them in other texts. But anyway, what would that change in our weighing of the text? It is still by fare the latest text we have, beside some snipets here and there, like Text X.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes. Of course that doesn't matter at all for our purposes. It was just a question to consider.
In any case, what do you think of my proposition, keeping the Nauglamír for Finrod, having no other evidence than the credibility of CT, and assuming that text X is after 1964, which may well be possible.
Greetings

[Findegil]

In the books forum I did agree rather to the concept that Text X is the logical 'end point' of cutting out the outlaws and their fight in Menegroth and that most likly, when JRR Tolkien, while writing Wanderings of Húrin discovered, that he needed the Outlaws, the concept of cutting out the fight of the dwarfish simths makes the pre-history of the Nauglamir unneseccary.

But I am hesitating to rule out the possibility that the Nauglamir made for Finrod had some completly diffrent background and should therefore be combined with the storyline of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.
So much that my first attemp at an edited text version was exactly for that combination. But I don't think I will push that farther. To skip Text X as either earlier then Concerning ... 'The Hoard' or a proposed change unworkable for us, is most proberbly the 'cannonically' saver way.

It would be very good to have opinnions of some other members on that matter. I am very much a 'combiner' and that might not be the best approach in this complex.

On another point: Why do you think Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does change the storyline in regard to the death of Thingol? Okay, I see that Doriath is now open to an attack while Thingol is alive, so the timing might be different. And I agree that Concerning ... 'The Hoard' suggest that Thingol is killed after Menegroth was taken. But I do not see that it is necessarily within Menegroth that Thingol is killed. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is equally to all other sources later then TN just a very short summary. Does any of these text ruleout the Hunt as a feature of the detailed story? I don't think so. And if we compair TN and Concerning ... 'The Hoard' then in both we have the sequence of
- dwarf-host enters Doriath
- Menegroth is taken
- Thingol is killed

Even if Concerning ... 'The Hoard' would strongly suggest that Thingol died within Menegroth (which it does not, in my oppinion), since we have nothing beside that over short statement, I would consider this a change unworkable for us.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hopping in to offer my humble opinion on the matter.

I agree with Fin about the death of Thingol. Concerning the Hoard is a short summary in comparison to TN, and the more detailed version of events there does not necessarily contradict this text.

With regard to the Nauglamir and the outlaws, I am also a combiner by nature. Since the Nauglamir's origin as made for Finrod by the dwarves is from a relatively unknown source, I think we cannot discount Christopher Tolkien's use of that in the published Silmarillion. To me it seems a minor change, and one easily resolved. Both Concerning the Hoard and the published Silm version of the story have the Dwarves taking the Nauglamir as payment for their unpaid labor, since it was made by them. The only difference is the timing. In the published Silm, it was made by them for Finrod long ago, while in Concerning the Hoard it was made for Thingol just recently. I think with the source of the Finrod story somewhat unknown, we should defer to it as likely authoritative, and since it requires such small modification to the material, I think it is the best route.