Survivor: The Second Age

[The Saucepan Man]

+ + CELEBRIMBOR

His greed for knowledge of ring lore led him to be taken in by Sauron and thus significantly contributed towards the downfall of Kings of Men, the corruption of Dwarven Lords, the waning of Elven power in Middle-earth, the creation of the One Ring and, therefore, the near total victory of Sauron.

He was humiliatingly used as a flag by the armies of Mordor.

Basically, he was a complete embarrassment to the line of Feanor.

And, on the Island, he occupies himself weaving plants into rings and calling them Rings of Flower, rather than contributing usefully towards the tasks or camp duties.

Besides, if he goes, it will annoy Ang and TP.

[Celuien]

++ELROS

Same reasoning as before. Minus the part about boycotting the anti-Celebornists.

[Lalaith]

++ELROS

same reasons as before. And I'm fond of Celebrimbor. He's clever, he makes pretty things and he likes Galadriel. What's not to like?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You'd think the fate of eight previous elves (daddy + 7)
significantly caused by pride in their powers would
have had some influence on him.

[Lalaith]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

A good, debatable point. But his being taken in by
"appearances" of pre-deluge Sauron doesn't speak
highly for his discernment. I believe Galadriel
told (Atanatar?) to shove off.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

It's not so much the rings themselves but rather who he took his ring-making tips off. Which shows exceptionally bad judgment on his part.

I think that it is safe to say that Middle-earth would have been a lot better off without the Rings of Power if that meant that there was also no One Ring ...

[JennyHallu]

And had Celebrimbor not made his rings, Sauron's might not have been so powerful. Pure speculation, but Sauron waited to make his Ring until Celebrimbor had already made the others, right? The other rings must also have been vital in Sauron's plans for world domination.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And had Celebrimbor not made his rings, Sauron's might not have been so powerful. Pure speculation, but Sauron waited to make his Ring until Celebrimbor had already made the others, right? The other rings must also have been vital in Sauron's plans for world domination.

JH: You could have the basis of several interesting threads here.
(I'm too lazy to check if there are existing ones). Tolkien
himself is, I believe, ambivalent on the overall effects of the three rings on
Middle-earth and the elves. And would a "stand-alone" Sauron Ring
have been less powerful?

At any rate, the Celebrimbor vote stands, although he did resist
Sauron, but he seems to be ethically/politically ambivalent
(in some versions ousting Galadriel from power) and still
pursuing elf power in Middle-earth.

[JennyHallu]

TiG: Sauron's own poem describing his Ring refers to it as Master of the other Rings, not as an independent power...

And if that is so, then Celebrimbor's denseness actively aided Sauron. He didn't even try to resist Sauron until he saw him in total "I am going to rule the world thanks to these suckers" mode and couldn't make an excuse not to.

[Eonwe]

NO, NO, a thouand time NOO!!! Celebrimbor, under no circumstances, should be voted off. Gulibility and sespeptablity to treachery were common problems in the Second Age. Think was good would have been lost had he not made his rings. Not to mention, they were not ever corrupted by Sauron. They came entirely from Celebrimbor's own thoughts and desires. Sauron made his ring to ensnare the bearers of all the others; he didn't even konw of teh Three.

Celebrimbor is the perfect candidate to win this Survivor. Not only does he have wisdom, skill, and knowledge, above all, he shows an admirable change in attitude from his father. Gone is the treacherous, deseitful leach. He will not stoop to play those power-games with the like of Grima Woomtouge and his father's brother's. No, he strikes out on the path of peace and knowledge, using his gifts of the sake of others.

[Eonwe]

Down with Elros! Down with the Pansy-King! Down with the Undeserving Monarch!

++Elros

Ha!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

It's the survival of the fittest, and she isn't fit.

[Firefoot]

++Elros

To recap my reasons (it was a couple days ago, now): as king, he basically did nothing except live for a really long time. The only things Elros is noted for are being related to Earendil, Elrond, etc., choosing mortality, being the first king of Numenor, and living a long time. At least Celebrimbor actually did something, however misguided he may have been in it. I'm not sure I want him to win, but I'd rather see Elros go first.

[JennyHallu]

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

A good, debatable point. But his being taken in by
"appearances" of pre-deluge Sauron doesn't speak highly for his discernment. I believe Galadriel told (Atanatar?) to shove off.

No, 'fraid not...

'twas Galadriel and Celeborn- not Celebrimbor- who ruled Eregion when Sauron waltzed right in after being given the thumb's down in Lindon. Tolkien, ever the Galadriel-fancier, tries to cover it by making it sound like Galadriel and Celeborn were rather lacking in power, but that doesn't speak any better about them, now does it?

And don't try blaming it all on Celeborn... we've already decided everything he did goes back to Galadriel.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Formendabras Took

Tolkien, ever the Galadriel-fancier, tries to cover it by making it sound like Galadriel and Celeborn were rather lacking in power, but that doesn't speak any better about them, now does it?

Er, you do realize that Tolkien was the godlike genius, author, and final authority of all things Middle-earth related and if he said they were lacking in power they were and there's no "trying" or "making it sound like" involved?

I dunno if I'm going to vote today. I feel like voting for Elros but I'm just too lazy to come up with some reasonable explanation for it... but since the day is double long maybe I'll come up with something in the next 24 hours.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

Yeah, this is SA survivor, and, as mentioned, we can use any event from any age to decide the outcome.

You also overlook the fact that Glorfindel actually died. He was sent to the Halls of Mandos and was then sent back to Middle-Earth. The Halls of Mandos really doesn't sound too pleasant. No elf has ever sailed to Valinor and come back.

[Lalaith]

Thingol, Finwe and Manwe all did...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Didn't Finwe stay on Valinor? Manwe is a vala, not an elf, and Thingol is the only one who actually stands out. However, he came back in a time when the world was new and had not waned. Every other elf left because they grew sad or tired of the world.

[Lalaith]

Sorry, rather early in the morning for me, I meant Ingwe, not Manwe....

The three elf chiefs all went to Valinor, then came back to Middle Earth to tell their chums how fabby it was...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Sorry, rather early in the morning for me, I meant Ingwe, not Manwe....

The three elf chiefs all went to Valinor, then came back to Middle Earth to tell their chums how fabby it was...

That is true, but that visit was more of a "business meeting" of sorts. No other elf has sailed back when they left for a personal reason.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(No, I won't do the whole of Hamlet's soliloquy in German. )

Do I vote in the hopes of a multiple lynch, or bandwaggon and help evict one character. Both aid and hurt my purposes here . . .

Oh, well.

++Elros Tar-Miniature

His claim to fame was living long. C'mon, mortal, life is not the amount of breaths you take, it's the moments that take your breath away. And, aside from your kidnapping, in which you were the receiver not the doer of the action, you didn't do anything of the sort.

Eeny, minie, Minyatur.
You're so small--are you a Stoor?

[JennyHallu]

The entire host of the Noldor returned to Middle Earth from Valinor. So there.

[The 1,000 Reader]

That was because of a war. The "holy" Silmarils were stolen, their leader was killed, and they wanted vengeance, something they could only get in Middle-Earth, and even then that was only because Morgoth had "set up shop" there. No elf has ever willingly sailed back to Middle-Earth by an uneffected mind. This is most important for Celebrian.

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-three marked the beginning of the home stretch of Survivor: The Second Age. With only six candidates remaining, the race was tight. The voting fell as follows:

Celebrían: II

Celebrimbor: III

Elros: IIIII

He had chosen the path of mortality, of NOT living to the end of the world, so it is perhaps only just that while he had a long run in the game of Surivor, Elros Tar-Minyatur did not make it to the end.


Those Remaining:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Tar-Míriel
Anárion

Day 24 now commences, and I'mstill predicting a Galadriel win. And, for what is probably the first time in ME Survivor history, there are more female candidates than male.

Vote Away!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Celebrían

She lacks initiative, letting things be done to her instead. Like being married to Elrond, being kidnapped by Orcs, being rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, and being taken in a ship to Valinor.

If we think of history as a sentence, she's never in the nominative case, always in the accusative or dative case.

Begone!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

--Celebrían
++Galadriel

I just don't like Formendaga's prediction. Plus it has something to do with my strategy.

Seriously, what's with flaunting her osanwë ability? 'Oh, look, I can talk to you without opening my mouth. How cool is that? Love me and despair, you talentless fools!' Oh, dear, what a character.

[Firefoot]

++Galadriel

All right, she's lasted long enough now. And now there are enough female characters that I don't feel bad voting for one of them.

She appears to be too powerful. Look her up in UT and it's always "Galadriel's wisdom this" or "Galadriel's foresight that." Supposedly she's a match for just about everyone in body and mind - athletes, loremasters, etc. She's full of herself, too proud to give Feanor any of her hairs (a simple thing, yes?). But I think the truth is that Galadriel wrote all of this, and since she was suffering from an inferiority complex she had to make herself appear more powerful than she actually was. She has to show off just to prove that she is as good as the rest of them. And even if it is all true, she's still all too proud and she's still too powerful to stick around for the rest of this game. That's what happens in Survivor, after all: the strongest players are too strong so they get voted out.

[JennyHallu]

++Galadriel

For flirting with a dwarf, being cryptic when solid advice was needed, and for upstaging her husband whenever opportunity presented itself.

[Lalaith]

++CELEBRIAN

A good and noble elfwoman, but the least outstanding in Middle Earth of those contestants left.

[The Saucepan Man]

I must concur that it's time to knock down a sacred cow, in this case literally so ( ).

+ + GALADRIEL

After all, she treated her husband appallingly, the poor fellow.

Furthermore, she stifled the realm of Lorien and all who dwelt within it with her obsession with preserving it and trying to turn it in to some kind of Valinor on Middle-earth. If she wanted to live in Valinor she should have stayed there. But no. She wanted to rule her own realm, which she could not do in Valinor. That hardly shows humility, now, does it?

And her efforts to "embalm" Lorien were totally contrary to the natural order of things, which requires change, via the cycle of life, to renew and referesh. All she achieved was to stifle and stultify.

Given half a chance, she will no doubt try to do the same with the Survivor Island. She must be stopped!

[Celuien]

You're forcing my hand...

++CELEBRIAN

Known only for getting into trouble by an irresponsible journey through orc territory.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel

As she herself observed, she'd make one scary-mama
if given too much power.

[Elu Ancalime]

You'd think the fate of eight previous elves (daddy + 7)
significantly caused by pride in their powers would
have had some influence on him.

Action, reaction, and stupidity.
________
Magic Flight Launch Box

[The 1,000 Reader]

Galadriel has long based herself on her pride, and with the time passed on the island and her still remaining, that pride has most likely become the fuel for an ego trip. Such a thing puts her in danger, and so she is the enemy of all on the island.

++Galadriel.

[Diamond18]

+ + Galadriel

Now that she no longer has her husband around to dominate, her more aggressive tendencies no longer have a healthy outlet and she will not be able to keep her dark side in check. Galadriel is full of dangerous, barely restrained Dark Lordess power. Maybe she ought to go diffuse it somewhere else.

~Diamond~
All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

Same old, same old.

Come now, Galadriel makes a great strategic Survivor player!

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-four ended with some evil cackling from the Moderator. His malicious plan had succeeded! *Moans the lack of an Evil Smiley!* The voting fell as follows:

Celebrían: III

Galadriel: IIIII II

And so the male and female balance of the game was restored...

Those Remaining:
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Tar-Míriel
Anárion

Day 25 now commences, and I'm gleefully pleased to see that Galadriel is gone. Vote away!

[Lalaith]

You all fell for it, didn't you...

Anyway, I'm getting worried about Anarion. He's just flying in under the radar here. And while I'm glad he's got this far, his contributions to Second Age life, to survival on the island and to the entertainment of viewers don't quite match up to the others.
++ANARION