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#721 | |||
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
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More thoughts and brain storming
Jenny, you're probably right with what you're saying about what happened here in America. I only used that as an example (having what Formy just said in mind). But we're not discussing America.
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I have not considered all the different possibilities of A. I merely wrote the problem down, and I mostly did it from B's point of view. What happened here is not an unlikely occurance, you know. If A does end up having a good reason for letting the land lie unused, then perhaps there is no guilt on his side. If A knew that B was planting his land but he didn't say anything, there is some guilt there. Because B has planted outside his claim, he's in fault, too. But is it enough to loose all of his work and all of his crops? Consider this: If B is allowed to keep what he planted (that's what they're arguing over - not who's land it is, really), A looses nothing, because he wasn't doing anything with his land anyway - UNLESS A was intending to plant a later crop, in which case, he would have been working the ground around the same time B was. The reason they brought this to court was because A wants to take B's work and crop after all the really hard work is done and B is putting up a fight. A think it's his right because it's his land, B think's it's his right because it's his work. Back to what Jenny said: Quote:
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If you want to ad fines or whatever to it, Elempi, you can. I have no clue about anything like that. -- Folwren
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#722 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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If Farmer A is owner of the land, then in my opinion it doesn't matter what he does with it. If I own a plot of land and do nothing with it, then it is still wrong for my neighbor to plant a field there. It isn't his. Farmer B doesn't dispute the land isn't his, nor does he claim he didn't know who the owner is, just claims he is entitled to it because Farmer A isn't using it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who is using it or isn't.
If Farmer B planted the land of Farmer A, knowing the land wasn't his, it isn't Farmer A's responsibility to give Farmer B permission. He has no obligation to give Farmer B permission, or to say anything to Farmer B before bringing the matter up in court. That's just my take on the situation: if Farmer A owns the land, he can do as he please with it, and isn't obligated legally to plant it. If Eodwine owns the land, perhaps it is a different story.
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#723 | |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I've been confused with your argumentativeness up to this point, but now I understand entirely where you're coming from. No, the land does not belong to him. It is Eodwine's and he grants the property to these different free holders on the condition that they use it to the best of it's ability. That is why they pay rent to the Eorl. They pay him for the use of his land. If they do not use the land to the best of their abilities, then they don't get to use it because it's going to waste and is not raising food when it could. That is what I understand the matter to be. If that's not what's happening, then it appears I am confused and mistaken as well. But that the understanding that I've been writing with. -- Folwren
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#724 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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My argument then, would still be with renters' rights. (I rent, by the way...)
If the man is not using the field, the other Farmer should have petitioned Eodwine for use of the land before planting, not planted and then asked, no matter the schedule of the crop. He is not paying the rent on the field, so he shouldn't get to use it. And are we sure the folks are renting? Are there freeholders on any of Eodwine's jurisdiction?
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#725 | |
Messenger of Hope
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And I do not know who are free holders and who are not. -- Folwren
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#726 | |
Dead Serious
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IF Farmer A had other plans/reasons for letting the land lie fallow, then that would obviously affect Eodwine's decision- but from what we know, there's no such evidence as yet. The Rohirrim weren't serfs, or so I would hazard, but they ARE being given a VERY Anglo-Saxon feel, and in that period of history, the land belonged to King -all of it-, and was held by his vassals, the Eorls. Depending on the size of the Earldom (or the Emnet), there would possibly be another layer of lords beneath the Eorl, who would hold the land as his vassals. Finally would be the final layer of vassals- the farmers, or landholders. I don't think they'd necessarily be serf. A serf is tied to the land, whereas it would seem to me that the Rohirrim had physical mobility within their class. But, as I said, the land was NOT the property of the farmer alone. As a vassal, he is it's owner under Eodwine, and subject to him, just as Eodwine is beneath and subject to Eomer. And Eodwine not only holds the right to command obedience from his vassals, but has the obligation to his subjects to provide for them as well- and that means that all land not currently in its fallow year ought to have been planted, if normally used for cropland. Again, if there ARE extenuating circumstances, as you have suggested there may be, then that obviously changes things up. And, obviously, Eodwine (meaning LMP) gets to make the final decision, and none of us commentators. But it IS fun to speculate. ![]()
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#727 |
Dead Serious
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Been crossposting, I see....
To concur with Folwren, and to restate in a slightly different manner my previous point, we are dealing with a more feudal system of ownership than of American West. So obviously, modern and American precedent should be taken with a grain of salt- though there is applicability.
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#728 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Let's set out the issue in terms of the facts. (uh-oh, LMP's in loyer mode, now we're reeeeelly in trouble)
![]() 1. Anglo-Saxon and therefore (we are implying) Rohirric codes are what we're dealing with. 2. Both farmers A and B are tenants, not owners. 3. Until a month ago, the land was leased of the King. 4. Now by order of the King it is leased of the Eorl of the Middle Emnet, all rights and responsibilities adhering thereto. (snicker) 5. Rights of ownership adhering to the Eorl include: (1) rent, paid quarterly, in fee or kind, depending on the agreement formerly made between king and tenant; (2) upon the death of the primary tenant, the land may be handed down to the tenant's heir, which is most likely in normal situations, or to another freeholder depending upon circumstances (criminal activity, the former family line running out or dwindling, etc.). 6. Rights of tenancy: (1) use of all crops harvested (after rent is paid); (2) tenancy for the life of the tenant. There are probably more rights, but this will do for now. Now for the case at hand: 1. Farmer B wrongfully sowed and seeks to harvest crops on land not in his tenancy. 2. Farmer A was negligent in not notifying the proper authority (a shire reave for example) of the wrongful activity. 3. Farmer A must pay rent to King or Eorl for the fallow land whether or not he uses it for crops; he is expected to use it for crops, but in the semi-feudal Anglo-Saxon society, is not required to. (In post William the Conqueror Britain, by contrast, tenants were more strictly regulated.) In fact, Farmer A may be letting the field lie fallow so that it can be transformed into a horse pasture, something that is not at all uncommon in Rohan. I have half a mind to use this particular twist for the sake of our little disagreement. As for "the best use of the land", that would be more of a concern in a more tightly regulated feudal society, which Rohan (as understood as a developed Anglo-Saxon culture) is not. Farmer B should have gotten permission from our nameless Shire Reave, or else directly from the King, as there was no Eorl of the Middle Emnet when all of this happened. Formy, the feudal structure you outline is actually more in keeping with post-Williamite Britain. In the pre-Williamite there would be a King, his Earls, freeholders, then peasants. Four levels, tops. My next post is going to be an attempt at the exchange between Eodwine and the two farmers. I have a writers' group meeting starting in 1 hour, so I don't know how far I'll get. |
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#729 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
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By the way, Folwren, Eodwine's words need to be changed post #367 in one small regard: In place of “You should have come to me before you broke ground and planted crops. It might have saved trouble.” - please put this: "You should have gone to the King or his man before you broke ground and planted crops. It would have saved trouble." Also, please change this: "Later today I will have made up my mind." to "Later today I will have more questions." - Thanks!
![]() **************** Eodwine and Saeryn took their seats again (it had been a most interesting discussion between the two of them regarding tenancy rights), and Thornden called the court to order with a thump on the floor of the staff Eodwine had procured for him recenlty. The two farmers stood before the Eorl. The first freeholder, Edelfrid, who tenanted the disputed land, stood on Eodwine's and Saeryn's right; the second, Radweld, who had planted the crops, stood to their left. "Edelfrid," Eodwine began, "did you pay tenancy to the King for the field while is lay fallow the second year?" "That I did, lord." "Did you know that Radweld was planting crops in your field?" "I knew, lord." "Why did you not speak of it to your shire reave or bring it to the king?" "Lord, am I on trial, or this man's misdeed?" "You are not on trial. But I need to know as much as I can before I make a ruling. Answer the question." "Lord, we have been unfriends for many years, and I admit that I hoped to win at his cost." "That is ill-thought by you, Edelfrid." "Yes, lord, I am sorry." "Your unfriendship should be redressed, but the matter of the crops must be ruled on first. Why did you leave the land fallow the extra year, Edelfrid?" "I plan to buy horses, lord, and I need a field for pasturing." "That field is not big enough for horse pasturage!" Radweld scowled. "You, neighbor," Edelfrid sneered, "have no right telling me what my land is good for!" Thornden raised the staff and brought it down hard three times. The three knocks on the floor got the two opponents' attention. "There will be order in my lord's court," Thornden said smoothly. "Thank you, Thornden," Eodwine smiled. "Here is my thought on the matter. Radweld, you did wrongfully to plant on a field not in your tenancy. For that you must pay. If Edelfrid was preparing his land for pasturage, you have stolen not only the use of his land for a crop year, but you have stolen time Edelfrid needed to turn the land to pasturage, and if Edelfrid is to hold to his plans to buy horses, he will have to pasture them elsewhere, paying rent for the right." "But-" Radweld interrupted. "I am not finished, Radweld!" The freeholder subsided. "On the other hand, Edelfrid allowed Radweld to do all the work on the field, with the hopes of gaining at Radweld's cost. This is wrongful. There is no law against it, but I would not have such things be the way things are done in my Emnet. Therefore, I rule thusly. First, that Radweld must pay a fine to me of two tenths of the worth of the crop for his wrongful use of Edelfrid's land. Second, that Radweld pay to Edelfrid double the yearly rate for rental of pasturage for two grown horses. Third, that these fines covering Radweld's wrongdoing, he is ruled as tenant of Edelfrid for the planted field, and will pay to Edelfrid a normal tenant rate for one year's use of the field, and may keep all that is left, for the sake of the work he has put into the land." Neither Edelfrid nor Radweld looked completely happy, nor crestfallen. To Eodwine's mind, that was as it should be. ************* Well? What do y'all think? Last edited by littlemanpoet; 06-23-2006 at 09:05 AM. |
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#730 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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I think that I'm ecstatic that Saeryn didn't actually have to say anything about either farmers or land rights.
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#731 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
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I will do so when I've more time. I'll also read your post later.
![]() -- Folwren
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#732 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
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I like it, lmp. As fair as possible to both of them, I think.
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#733 | |
Dead Serious
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Anyway, good to see the debate is getting back to the game, where it belongs... Rohirric law is more appropriate to Eodwine than Elempi. ![]()
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#734 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
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Elempi, corrections in my post are made.
Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to change one thing in yours. I don't think that Thornden would have to shout his order. It's not very much like him to shout. You could put- "Quite!" Thornden commanded. Or something that would imply he said it in a louder than normal voice and possibly in a dominating sort of way (that is what you wanted to imply, right?). The post looked good. Great job wading through all of the debate posted here and coming out with that. ![]() -- Folwren
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#735 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Popping in again...
...just to inform I managed to fumble again.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#736 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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#737 | |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#738 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Okay, now for that all important issue: I'm taking nominations for how far into the future we jump. Let's here what you want to do. |
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#739 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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![]() Time jump: Will we still have 'tomorrow'? I have several things that need to be done 'tomorrow': Farahil and Lin leave, therefore Farahil will be saying goodbye, Degas will be reacting to the news, and Saeryn will be upset to see her friend and *blush* Farahil leaving. Those things can be done in retrospect, though I'd prefer to write it as it happens. What is a lot more awkward to write reflectively is the series of topics that Saeryn and Degas need to cover in conversation. Also, Saeryn and Eodwine will be wanting to discuss the court proceedings rather immediately after they end, one would think. And Degas will be wanting to have a private word with Eodwine. That one can wait a few 'days' if it must, but my other posts really want for 'tomorrow'. So if the time jump goes from this night to something not the chronological next day, I'll be rather put out and have to rethink a few things, but I'll deal with it. If my concerns are superfluous and of course we have tomorrow and the time change will happen AFTER that, then I can work with just about anything, though the shorter the jump, the easier to keep up with some quickly developing characters. Farahil is pretty static, but Saeryn and Degas have recently been through some interesting and are changing as quickly as hourly for it. They need their development time or what I see happening to them will be very awkward to convey well to readers and fellow writers. So yeah... I need my tomorrow and then the shorter the jump the better, at least for now.
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#740 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The post's up, a day late. Sorry.
I think we shouldn't jump in time right now. It seems Cnebba and Garstan's children are just getting to know each other; I think it would nice that there would still be at least one post for them for the current day in the Mead Hall. Furthermore, when is Stigend's hiring to take place? Then, after a few today-posts we could move to tomorrow, as Fea seems to have a lot of things to write about. Then, maybe, we could jump in time. This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#741 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Okay, we'll take a pit stop into the following Day before moving on. Please try to get all you need to write into one or two posts, as I'd like us to move on to at least a week later rather soon. Don't want this to drag any more than it has started to (I realize my court date has not helped one bit, and I'm sorry about that). If you need to write more than one post for the following Day, just let me know and we'll work it out.
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#742 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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It will depend on how Jenny works Lin's departure. I might not even need/want to write a Farahil post. I can handle Saeryn and Degas in one post, though it will probably be absurdly long. LMP, do you want Eodwine and Degas to have their erm... chat
![]() Because if you want to hold off on it, I can keep "tomorrow" down to one post and be quite content to move on. Oh, and are Saeryn and Eodwine going to share thoughts on the court proceedings "tonight" or do you just want to do it in retrospect?
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#743 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I let it to Noggie to drag our little family along from now on; I will be running around Finland for the next four weeks...
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#744 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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Angst is good.
That's all I wanted to say.
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#745 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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I'll try to come up with a post yet today (after the football mach is over...
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#746 | ||||
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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#747 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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lmp: The last decision for the Eorl to ponder is in. I hope I didn't make you too nice a man...
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#748 | ||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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#749 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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AIM built post coming shortly for Lin and Garstan...
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#750 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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AIM, eh?
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#751 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
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The class standing definitely figures into Mr. Honor and Propriety bound Garstan's thoughts. He also has other reason to be really interested in Lin's doings that I can't post yet. That part of the equation explains his seriousness now, as well as his seriousness earlier at court...
So Garstan most likely is taking things a tad too seriously, but he has his reasons. ![]() Jenny says: "Lin's almost 18, and thus her sense of melodrama is unrivaled. Too self-conscious. And I should think the honor and dishonor of great importance to a nation of semi-nomadic warriors." We're still on AIM...
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#752 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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AIM is fun. But really...Lin understands what's at stake between Garstan and herself, and also (a bit more of a superficial concern here, but she is a teenage girl, in the middle of her first real romance) really doesn't want to have to deal with her brothers, who will be greatly aware of propriety and honor in the situation, especially since she's been rather minimally chaperoned.
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#753 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
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So anyway, that's where we were coming from.
Is there anything in particular that you think needs changing, Elempi? Say the word and I will adjust Garstan's part of the post. ![]()
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#754 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Just something to consider. Whereas the noble born Linduial and Degas would be very aware of propriety and honor (must save the lady's honor for her future husband and all that), Garstan, being a humble freeman, might have a more earthy attitude toward such things. Typically in the middle ages, for example, marriage occurred after pregnancy was proven. That said, Garstan could still be quite concerned over the honor of the noble lady, the standards for whom he would know are different than those for his own class. Carry on!
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#755 |
Everlasting Whiteness
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Sorry, need to sort out the emailing system on this thing.
Ooh as to Kara, does she need to do anything right now?
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#756 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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If I may step in here and comment on this most interesting discussion...
The honour and propriety bit in older times was dependant upon descreasing the worth of a family's goods and chattels, young girls being merely the property of the family, or, as LMP points out, the future husband. The concern was for damage to property, not to the personal well being of the female. As well, medieval concepts of chivalry and the like of knights and damsels and lady loves don't really pertain to Anglo Saxon culture. Reading Tolkien's letter to his son Michael might make for some interesting discussion here on 'canonical' depictions of young women. See Letter # 46, 6 -8 March 1941, pp. 48 - 54 in the HarperCollins paperback edition of 1990. What, indeed, would Tolkien do? ![]() |
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#757 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html
Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate. I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing?
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#758 | |
Itinerant Songster
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![]() ![]() One minor nitpick: the Dark Ages (450 - c.1000) and Medieval period (c.1000 - 1500) are two different times. Kath, whatever you want for now. |
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#759 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
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And of course, Garstan's concern is that the young lady's responsible relatives haven't given their approval to any courtin'.
![]() That letter. "In this fallen world, the friendship that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman...This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails." Tolkien meets When Harry Met Sally? ![]() ![]()
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#760 |
Itinerant Songster
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It's too long a letter to reproduce in full. Celuien's quote from it give as good a summary of Tolkien's point of view as any. With one addition: Men are looking for their "star". Women are more practical. So it's all about interaction between the sexes. Quite interesting reading! Some of his insights would be considered decidedly man-centered these days.
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