Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread - Page 19 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Folwren · 06-22-2006, 01:08 PM

Jenny, you're probably right with what you're saying about what happened here in America. I only used that as an example (having what Formy just said in mind). But we're not discussing America.

Quote:

Farmer B is a claimjumper.

EDIT: and who cares if A let his land lie fallow? It's his decision. Perhaps he hadn't the hands to work it himself, but was planning to send the field as his daughter's dowry when she wed. Perhaps the land had been poorly stewarded and overworked by a previous owner, and needed to lie fallow for more time. Perhaps the man wished to put cattle on it, but was saving his money to purchase the livestock. The Rohirrim are not serfs, are they?

Well, see, these problems do have to be addressed. I don't know if the land was poorly stewarded, or if he was keeping it for later, or what. We can decide that if we want. If he didn't have enough hands to work it himself, then that means he didn't have the ability to keep it, and if he wasn't doing anything with it and if he couldn't do anything with it, but his neighbor had the ability to work it and plant it, then technically, they both should have talked it over and brought it to Eodwine before it came to what it is.

I have not considered all the different possibilities of A. I merely wrote the problem down, and I mostly did it from B's point of view. What happened here is not an unlikely occurance, you know.

If A does end up having a good reason for letting the land lie unused, then perhaps there is no guilt on his side.

If A knew that B was planting his land but he didn't say anything, there is some guilt there.

Because B has planted outside his claim, he's in fault, too. But is it enough to loose all of his work and all of his crops?

Consider this:

If B is allowed to keep what he planted (that's what they're arguing over - not who's land it is, really), A looses nothing, because he wasn't doing anything with his land anyway - UNLESS A was intending to plant a later crop, in which case, he would have been working the ground around the same time B was.

The reason they brought this to court was because A wants to take B's work and crop after all the really hard work is done and B is putting up a fight. A think it's his right because it's his land, B think's it's his right because it's his work.

Back to what Jenny said:

Quote:

Perhaps he hadn't the hands to work it himself, but was planning to send the field as his daughter's dowry when she wed.

If that's the case, it might be easily resolved. Farmer B is not asking Eodwine to give him the land. He's asking him not to let Farmer A take away his crop. Here's the case as I put it:

Quote:

One man (A) claimed that his neighbor (B) had planted an entire crop of oats on one of A's outlying fields. Because it was land granted to A, A should now own the crop growing on it. The other man (B) interjected - the field had lain fallow for two years, the owner (A) wasn’t using it as it should be used, A didn’t do the work, if A wanted the field for A's own use, A should have been out there breaking the ground instead of leaving it for his neighbor (B) to do.

Now, if A ups and says 'I can't work it myself, but I want to keep it until my daughter get's married' Eodwine can grant that to him, but say - 'Until then, B can use it for crops, so long as he lets it rest as often as it needs to' or whatever.

If you want to ad fines or whatever to it, Elempi, you can. I have no clue about anything like that.

-- Folwren

JennyHallu · 06-22-2006, 01:15 PM

If Farmer A is owner of the land, then in my opinion it doesn't matter what he does with it. If I own a plot of land and do nothing with it, then it is still wrong for my neighbor to plant a field there. It isn't his. Farmer B doesn't dispute the land isn't his, nor does he claim he didn't know who the owner is, just claims he is entitled to it because Farmer A isn't using it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who is using it or isn't.

If Farmer B planted the land of Farmer A, knowing the land wasn't his, it isn't Farmer A's responsibility to give Farmer B permission. He has no obligation to give Farmer B permission, or to say anything to Farmer B before bringing the matter up in court.

That's just my take on the situation: if Farmer A owns the land, he can do as he please with it, and isn't obligated legally to plant it. If Eodwine owns the land, perhaps it is a different story.

Folwren · 06-22-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If Farmer A is owner of the land, then in my opinion it doesn't matter what he does with it. If I own a plot of land and do nothing with it, then it is still wrong for my neighbor to plant a field there. It isn't his. Farmer B doesn't dispute the land isn't his, nor does he claim he didn't know who the owner is, just claims he is entitled to it because Farmer A isn't using it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who is using it or isn't.

...

That's just my take on the situation: if Farmer A owns the land, he can do as he please with it, and isn't obligated legally to plant it. If Eodwine owns the land, perhaps it is a different story.

Oh! Oh, my dear Jenny! No, no, no!

I've been confused with your argumentativeness up to this point, but now I understand entirely where you're coming from.

No, the land does not belong to him. It is Eodwine's and he grants the property to these different free holders on the condition that they use it to the best of it's ability. That is why they pay rent to the Eorl. They pay him for the use of his land. If they do not use the land to the best of their abilities, then they don't get to use it because it's going to waste and is not raising food when it could.

That is what I understand the matter to be. If that's not what's happening, then it appears I am confused and mistaken as well. But that the understanding that I've been writing with.

-- Folwren

JennyHallu · 06-22-2006, 01:56 PM

My argument then, would still be with renters' rights. (I rent, by the way...)

If the man is not using the field, the other Farmer should have petitioned Eodwine for use of the land before planting, not planted and then asked, no matter the schedule of the crop. He is not paying the rent on the field, so he shouldn't get to use it.

And are we sure the folks are renting? Are there freeholders on any of Eodwine's jurisdiction?

Folwren · 06-22-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

My argument then, would still be with renters' rights. (I rent, by the way...)

If the man is not using the field, the other Farmer should have petitioned Eodwine for use of the land before planting, not planted and then asked, no matter the schedule of the crop. He is not paying the rent on the field, so he shouldn't get to use it.

And are we sure the folks are renting? Are there freeholders on any of Eodwine's jurisdiction?

Right. That's what's snagging this up. Farmer B should have petitioned to Eodwine before planting, that's why Elempi is considering having him get into more trouble than Mr. A.

And I do not know who are free holders and who are not.

-- Folwren

Formendacil · 06-22-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

and who cares if A let his land lie fallow? It's his decision. Perhaps he hadn't the hands to work it himself, but was planning to send the field as his daughter's dowry when she wed. Perhaps the land had been poorly stewarded and overworked by a previous owner, and needed to lie fallow for more time. Perhaps the man wished to put cattle on it, but was saving his money to purchase the livestock. The Rohirrim are not serfs, are they?

Well, from a medieval point of view... Eodwine would care. King Eomer would care.

IF Farmer A had other plans/reasons for letting the land lie fallow, then that would obviously affect Eodwine's decision- but from what we know, there's no such evidence as yet.

The Rohirrim weren't serfs, or so I would hazard, but they ARE being given a VERY Anglo-Saxon feel, and in that period of history, the land belonged to King -all of it-, and was held by his vassals, the Eorls. Depending on the size of the Earldom (or the Emnet), there would possibly be another layer of lords beneath the Eorl, who would hold the land as his vassals. Finally would be the final layer of vassals- the farmers, or landholders. I don't think they'd necessarily be serf. A serf is tied to the land, whereas it would seem to me that the Rohirrim had physical mobility within their class.

But, as I said, the land was NOT the property of the farmer alone. As a vassal, he is it's owner under Eodwine, and subject to him, just as Eodwine is beneath and subject to Eomer. And Eodwine not only holds the right to command obedience from his vassals, but has the obligation to his subjects to provide for them as well- and that means that all land not currently in its fallow year ought to have been planted, if normally used for cropland.

Again, if there ARE extenuating circumstances, as you have suggested there may be, then that obviously changes things up. And, obviously, Eodwine (meaning LMP) gets to make the final decision, and none of us commentators. But it IS fun to speculate.

Formendacil · 06-22-2006, 03:14 PM

Been crossposting, I see....

To concur with Folwren, and to restate in a slightly different manner my previous point, we are dealing with a more feudal system of ownership than of American West. So obviously, modern and American precedent should be taken with a grain of salt- though there is applicability.

littlemanpoet · 06-22-2006, 04:37 PM

Let's set out the issue in terms of the facts. (uh-oh, LMP's in loyer mode, now we're reeeeelly in trouble)

1. Anglo-Saxon and therefore (we are implying) Rohirric codes are what we're dealing with.

2. Both farmers A and B are tenants, not owners.

3. Until a month ago, the land was leased of the King.

4. Now by order of the King it is leased of the Eorl of the Middle Emnet, all rights and responsibilities adhering thereto. (snicker)

5. Rights of ownership adhering to the Eorl include: (1) rent, paid quarterly, in fee or kind, depending on the agreement formerly made between king and tenant; (2) upon the death of the primary tenant, the land may be handed down to the tenant's heir, which is most likely in normal situations, or to another freeholder depending upon circumstances (criminal activity, the former family line running out or dwindling, etc.).

6. Rights of tenancy: (1) use of all crops harvested (after rent is paid); (2) tenancy for the life of the tenant.

There are probably more rights, but this will do for now.

Now for the case at hand:

1. Farmer B wrongfully sowed and seeks to harvest crops on land not in his tenancy.
2. Farmer A was negligent in not notifying the proper authority (a shire reave for example) of the wrongful activity.
3. Farmer A must pay rent to King or Eorl for the fallow land whether or not he uses it for crops; he is expected to use it for crops, but in the semi-feudal Anglo-Saxon society, is not required to. (In post William the Conqueror Britain, by contrast, tenants were more strictly regulated.)

In fact, Farmer A may be letting the field lie fallow so that it can be transformed into a horse pasture, something that is not at all uncommon in Rohan. I have half a mind to use this particular twist for the sake of our little disagreement.

As for "the best use of the land", that would be more of a concern in a more tightly regulated feudal society, which Rohan (as understood as a developed Anglo-Saxon culture) is not.

Farmer B should have gotten permission from our nameless Shire Reave, or else directly from the King, as there was no Eorl of the Middle Emnet when all of this happened.

Formy, the feudal structure you outline is actually more in keeping with post-Williamite Britain. In the pre-Williamite there would be a King, his Earls, freeholders, then peasants. Four levels, tops.

My next post is going to be an attempt at the exchange between Eodwine and the two farmers. I have a writers' group meeting starting in 1 hour, so I don't know how far I'll get.

littlemanpoet · 06-22-2006, 05:13 PM

By the way, Folwren, Eodwine's words need to be changed post #367 in one small regard: In place of “You should have come to me before you broke ground and planted crops. It might have saved trouble.” - please put this: "You should have gone to the King or his man before you broke ground and planted crops. It would have saved trouble." Also, please change this: "Later today I will have made up my mind." to "Later today I will have more questions." - Thanks!

****************
Eodwine and Saeryn took their seats again (it had been a most interesting discussion between the two of them regarding tenancy rights), and Thornden called the court to order with a thump on the floor of the staff Eodwine had procured for him recenlty. The two farmers stood before the Eorl.

The first freeholder, Edelfrid, who tenanted the disputed land, stood on Eodwine's and Saeryn's right; the second, Radweld, who had planted the crops, stood to their left.

"Edelfrid," Eodwine began, "did you pay tenancy to the King for the field while is lay fallow the second year?"

"That I did, lord."

"Did you know that Radweld was planting crops in your field?"

"I knew, lord."

"Why did you not speak of it to your shire reave or bring it to the king?"

"Lord, am I on trial, or this man's misdeed?"

"You are not on trial. But I need to know as much as I can before I make a ruling. Answer the question."

"Lord, we have been unfriends for many years, and I admit that I hoped to win at his cost."

"That is ill-thought by you, Edelfrid."

"Yes, lord, I am sorry."

"Your unfriendship should be redressed, but the matter of the crops must be ruled on first. Why did you leave the land fallow the extra year, Edelfrid?"

"I plan to buy horses, lord, and I need a field for pasturing."

"That field is not big enough for horse pasturage!" Radweld scowled.

"You, neighbor," Edelfrid sneered, "have no right telling me what my land is good for!"

Thornden raised the staff and brought it down hard three times. The three knocks on the floor got the two opponents' attention. "There will be order in my lord's court," Thornden said smoothly.

"Thank you, Thornden," Eodwine smiled. "Here is my thought on the matter. Radweld, you did wrongfully to plant on a field not in your tenancy. For that you must pay. If Edelfrid was preparing his land for pasturage, you have stolen not only the use of his land for a crop year, but you have stolen time Edelfrid needed to turn the land to pasturage, and if Edelfrid is to hold to his plans to buy horses, he will have to pasture them elsewhere, paying rent for the right."

"But-" Radweld interrupted.

"I am not finished, Radweld!"

The freeholder subsided.

"On the other hand, Edelfrid allowed Radweld to do all the work on the field, with the hopes of gaining at Radweld's cost. This is wrongful. There is no law against it, but I would not have such things be the way things are done in my Emnet. Therefore, I rule thusly. First, that Radweld must pay a fine to me of two tenths of the worth of the crop for his wrongful use of Edelfrid's land. Second, that Radweld pay to Edelfrid double the yearly rate for rental of pasturage for two grown horses. Third, that these fines covering Radweld's wrongdoing, he is ruled as tenant of Edelfrid for the planted field, and will pay to Edelfrid a normal tenant rate for one year's use of the field, and may keep all that is left, for the sake of the work he has put into the land."

Neither Edelfrid nor Radweld looked completely happy, nor crestfallen. To Eodwine's mind, that was as it should be.
*************
Well? What do y'all think?

Feanor of the Peredhil · 06-22-2006, 05:22 PM

I think that I'm ecstatic that Saeryn didn't actually have to say anything about either farmers or land rights.

Folwren · 06-22-2006, 05:49 PM

I will do so when I've more time. I'll also read your post later.

-- Folwren

Celuien · 06-22-2006, 06:47 PM

I like it, lmp. As fair as possible to both of them, I think.

Formendacil · 06-23-2006, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Formy, the feudal structure you outline is actually more in keeping with post-Williamite Britain. In the pre-Williamite there would be a King, his Earls, freeholders, then peasants. Four levels, tops.

Well, I've never claimed to be an Anglo-Saxon expert, so I'll take your word for it... though Saxon England was a feudal society. And they did have King, Earls, and Freeholders. They were simply a little less rigid about it...

Anyway, good to see the debate is getting back to the game, where it belongs... Rohirric law is more appropriate to Eodwine than Elempi.

Folwren · 06-23-2006, 07:19 AM

Elempi, corrections in my post are made.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to change one thing in yours. I don't think that Thornden would have to shout his order. It's not very much like him to shout. You could put- "Quite!" Thornden commanded. Or something that would imply he said it in a louder than normal voice and possibly in a dominating sort of way (that is what you wanted to imply, right?).

The post looked good. Great job wading through all of the debate posted here and coming out with that.

-- Folwren

Thinlómien · 06-23-2006, 08:35 AM

...just to inform I managed to fumble again.

I was the last few weeks in Nogrod's place and started writing the post there. When I came back home yesterday, I forgot to take the half of the post with me. As I wouldn't like to rewrite it and Nogrod's now in our summer cottage, I must wait 'til Sunday that he sends it to me via e-mail and I still have to finish it, so it will be up on Monday probably. I hope that doesn't cause any trouble: I suppose we're still having the same day going on, right?

littlemanpoet · 06-23-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folwren

Elempi, corrections in my post are made.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to change one thing in yours. I don't think that Thornden would have to shout his order. It's not very much like him to shout. You could put- "Quite!" Thornden commanded. Or something that would imply he said it in a louder than normal voice and possibly in a dominating sort of way (that is what you wanted to imply, right?).

The post looked good. Great job wading through all of the debate posted here and coming out with that.

-- Folwren

Post edited. Eodwine has provided Thornden with a "staff of office", which Thornden uses like a judge's hammer. Let me know if it's okay, Foley.

Thinlómien · 06-23-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

. . .so it will be up on Monday probably. I hope that doesn't cause any trouble: I suppose we're still having the same day going on, right?

LMP, could you confirm this now that you're online?

littlemanpoet · 06-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

LMP, could you confirm this now that you're online?

Sorry, I was pressed for time. Yes, we're still on the same day. We'll make the post you put up on Monday be the final event of court. There may be more posts to wind up the day.

Okay, now for that all important issue: I'm taking nominations for how far into the future we jump. Let's here what you want to do.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 06-23-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elempi in the Game

Assured by Thornden that these were the last freeholders, Eodwine opened the court to the needs and desires of peasants and aliens.

I can't remove the image of little green men mucking about in Rohan.

Time jump:

Will we still have 'tomorrow'?

I have several things that need to be done 'tomorrow':

Farahil and Lin leave, therefore Farahil will be saying goodbye, Degas will be reacting to the news, and Saeryn will be upset to see her friend and *blush* Farahil leaving. Those things can be done in retrospect, though I'd prefer to write it as it happens.

What is a lot more awkward to write reflectively is the series of topics that Saeryn and Degas need to cover in conversation.

Also, Saeryn and Eodwine will be wanting to discuss the court proceedings rather immediately after they end, one would think.

And Degas will be wanting to have a private word with Eodwine. That one can wait a few 'days' if it must, but my other posts really want for 'tomorrow'.

So if the time jump goes from this night to something not the chronological next day, I'll be rather put out and have to rethink a few things, but I'll deal with it.

If my concerns are superfluous and of course we have tomorrow and the time change will happen AFTER that, then I can work with just about anything, though the shorter the jump, the easier to keep up with some quickly developing characters. Farahil is pretty static, but Saeryn and Degas have recently been through some interesting and are changing as quickly as hourly for it. They need their development time or what I see happening to them will be very awkward to convey well to readers and fellow writers.

So yeah... I need my tomorrow and then the shorter the jump the better, at least for now.

Thinlómien · 06-27-2006, 03:53 AM

The post's up, a day late. Sorry.

I think we shouldn't jump in time right now. It seems Cnebba and Garstan's children are just getting to know each other; I think it would nice that there would still be at least one post for them for the current day in the Mead Hall. Furthermore, when is Stigend's hiring to take place? Then, after a few today-posts we could move to tomorrow, as Fea seems to have a lot of things to write about. Then, maybe, we could jump in time. This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

littlemanpoet · 06-27-2006, 09:49 AM

Okay, we'll take a pit stop into the following Day before moving on. Please try to get all you need to write into one or two posts, as I'd like us to move on to at least a week later rather soon. Don't want this to drag any more than it has started to (I realize my court date has not helped one bit, and I'm sorry about that). If you need to write more than one post for the following Day, just let me know and we'll work it out.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 06-27-2006, 10:04 AM

It will depend on how Jenny works Lin's departure. I might not even need/want to write a Farahil post. I can handle Saeryn and Degas in one post, though it will probably be absurdly long. LMP, do you want Eodwine and Degas to have their erm... chat

... sooner or later?

Because if you want to hold off on it, I can keep "tomorrow" down to one post and be quite content to move on.

Oh, and are Saeryn and Eodwine going to share thoughts on the court proceedings "tonight" or do you just want to do it in retrospect?

Thinlómien · 06-27-2006, 10:29 AM

I let it to Noggie to drag our little family along from now on; I will be running around Finland for the next four weeks...

JennyHallu · 06-27-2006, 11:42 AM

That's all I wanted to say.

Nogrod · 06-27-2006, 11:52 AM

I'll try to come up with a post yet today (after the football mach is over...

), so we can see what is Eodwine's answer to our family.

littlemanpoet · 06-27-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

It will depend on how Jenny works Lin's departure. I might not even need/want to write a Farahil post. I can handle Saeryn and Degas in one post, though it will probably be absurdly long. LMP, do you want Eodwine and Degas to have their erm... chat

... sooner or later?

Sooner. As in this Day after court proceedings are done.

Quote:

Oh, and are Saeryn and Eodwine going to share thoughts on the court proceedings "tonight" or do you just want to do it in retrospect?

That can happen toNight if you like. Do you think we need to do a PM built post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'll try to come up with a post yet today (after the football mach is over... ), so we can see what is Eodwine's answer to our family.

Sounds good!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenny

That's all I wanted to say.

That looks funny on the post history screen....

Nogrod · 06-27-2006, 03:34 PM

lmp: The last decision for the Eorl to ponder is in. I hope I didn't make you too nice a man...

(and surely, that one could have been just a misinterpretation)

Feanor of the Peredhil · 06-27-2006, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Sooner. As in this Day after court proceedings are done.

Okay.

Quote:

That can happen toNight if you like. Do you think we need to do a PM built post?

It would probably be easier that way.

Celuien · 06-27-2006, 08:19 PM

AIM built post coming shortly for Lin and Garstan...

littlemanpoet · 06-27-2006, 09:18 PM

AIM, eh?

That explains it. I'm intrigued by the talk of propriety and impropriety, honor and dishonor. I'm talking as a fellow writer, not as moderator, just so that's clear. Part of me wonders how important that was to a Rohirrim as compared to a Gondorian. Doubtless, that Degas and Linduial are upperclass would make it more important than to a lowly Rohirric craftsman. I wonder if Garstan and Linduial aren't taking it all a bit more seriously than need be? Just a fellow writer wondering....

Feel free to tell me to mind my own business if you like, it's just that I'm intrigued.

Celuien · 06-27-2006, 09:23 PM

The class standing definitely figures into Mr. Honor and Propriety bound Garstan's thoughts. He also has other reason to be really interested in Lin's doings that I can't post yet. That part of the equation explains his seriousness now, as well as his seriousness earlier at court...

So Garstan most likely is taking things a tad too seriously, but he has his reasons.

Jenny says:

"Lin's almost 18, and thus her sense of melodrama is unrivaled. Too self-conscious. And I should think the honor and dishonor of great importance to a nation of semi-nomadic warriors."

We're still on AIM...

JennyHallu · 06-27-2006, 09:26 PM

AIM is fun. But really...Lin understands what's at stake between Garstan and herself, and also (a bit more of a superficial concern here, but she is a teenage girl, in the middle of her first real romance) really doesn't want to have to deal with her brothers, who will be greatly aware of propriety and honor in the situation, especially since she's been rather minimally chaperoned.

Celuien · 06-27-2006, 09:40 PM

So anyway, that's where we were coming from.

Is there anything in particular that you think needs changing, Elempi? Say the word and I will adjust Garstan's part of the post.

littlemanpoet · 06-28-2006, 03:25 AM

Just something to consider. Whereas the noble born Linduial and Degas would be very aware of propriety and honor (must save the lady's honor for her future husband and all that), Garstan, being a humble freeman, might have a more earthy attitude toward such things. Typically in the middle ages, for example, marriage occurred after pregnancy was proven. That said, Garstan could still be quite concerned over the honor of the noble lady, the standards for whom he would know are different than those for his own class. Carry on!

Kath · 06-28-2006, 04:32 AM

Sorry, need to sort out the emailing system on this thing.

Ooh as to Kara, does she need to do anything right now?

Bêthberry · 06-28-2006, 07:39 AM

If I may step in here and comment on this most interesting discussion...

The honour and propriety bit in older times was dependant upon descreasing the worth of a family's goods and chattels, young girls being merely the property of the family, or, as LMP points out, the future husband. The concern was for damage to property, not to the personal well being of the female. As well, medieval concepts of chivalry and the like of knights and damsels and lady loves don't really pertain to Anglo Saxon culture.

Reading Tolkien's letter to his son Michael might make for some interesting discussion here on 'canonical' depictions of young women. See Letter # 46, 6 -8 March 1941, pp. 48 - 54 in the HarperCollins paperback edition of 1990. What, indeed, would Tolkien do?

JennyHallu · 06-28-2006, 07:55 AM

http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html

Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate.

I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing?

littlemanpoet · 06-28-2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html

Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate.

I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing?

Actually, Jenny, I agree with you pretty much entirely. A lot of what I've been writing about this is "thinking out loud". So go with my conclusions at the ends of posts rather than how I get there because the in between stuff may not agree with the conclusion. I hope that made some sense!

At least in the case of the posts about this topic.

Anyway, I'll provide the content for that Letter when I get home.

One minor nitpick: the Dark Ages (450 - c.1000) and Medieval period (c.1000 - 1500) are two different times.

Kath, whatever you want for now.

Celuien · 06-28-2006, 12:28 PM

And of course, Garstan's concern is that the young lady's responsible relatives haven't given their approval to any courtin'.

The 'business' side of her family's ability to match her properly for their purposes would be concerning to him.

That letter.

"In this fallen world, the friendship that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman...This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails."

Tolkien meets When Harry Met Sally?

littlemanpoet · 06-28-2006, 03:07 PM

It's too long a letter to reproduce in full. Celuien's quote from it give as good a summary of Tolkien's point of view as any. With one addition: Men are looking for their "star". Women are more practical. So it's all about interaction between the sexes. Quite interesting reading! Some of his insights would be considered decidedly man-centered these days.

06-22-2006, 01:15 PM	#722
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	If Farmer A is owner of the land, then in my opinion it doesn't matter what he does with it. If I own a plot of land and do nothing with it, then it is still wrong for my neighbor to plant a field there. It isn't his. Farmer B doesn't dispute the land isn't his, nor does he claim he didn't know who the owner is, just claims he is entitled to it because Farmer A isn't using it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who is using it or isn't. If Farmer B planted the land of Farmer A, knowing the land wasn't his, it isn't Farmer A's responsibility to give Farmer B permission. He has no obligation to give Farmer B permission, or to say anything to Farmer B before bringing the matter up in court. That's just my take on the situation: if Farmer A owns the land, he can do as he please with it, and isn't obligated legally to plant it. If Eodwine owns the land, perhaps it is a different story. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

06-22-2006, 01:56 PM	#724
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	My argument then, would still be with renters' rights. (I rent, by the way...) If the man is not using the field, the other Farmer should have petitioned Eodwine for use of the land before planting, not planted and then asked, no matter the schedule of the crop. He is not paying the rent on the field, so he shouldn't get to use it. And are we sure the folks are renting? Are there freeholders on any of Eodwine's jurisdiction? __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

06-22-2006, 03:14 PM	#727
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	Been crossposting, I see.... To concur with Folwren, and to restate in a slightly different manner my previous point, we are dealing with a more feudal system of ownership than of American West. So obviously, modern and American precedent should be taken with a grain of salt- though there is applicability. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

06-22-2006, 05:13 PM	#729
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	By the way, Folwren, Eodwine's words need to be changed post #367 in one small regard: In place of “You should have come to me before you broke ground and planted crops. It might have saved trouble.” - please put this: "You should have gone to the King or his man before you broke ground and planted crops. It would have saved trouble." Also, please change this: "Later today I will have made up my mind." to "Later today I will have more questions." - Thanks! ************** Eodwine and Saeryn took their seats again (it had been a most interesting discussion between the two of them regarding tenancy rights), and Thornden called the court to order with a thump on the floor of the staff Eodwine had procured for him recenlty. The two farmers stood before the Eorl. The first freeholder, Edelfrid, who tenanted the disputed land, stood on Eodwine's and Saeryn's right; the second, Radweld, who had planted the crops, stood to their left. "Edelfrid," Eodwine began, "did you pay tenancy to the King for the field while is lay fallow the second year?" "That I did, lord." "Did you know that Radweld was planting crops in your field?" "I knew, lord." "Why did you not speak of it to your shire reave or bring it to the king?" "Lord, am I on trial, or this man's misdeed?" "You are not on trial. But I need to know as much as I can before I make a ruling. Answer the question." "Lord, we have been unfriends for many years, and I admit that I hoped to win at his cost." "That is ill-thought by you, Edelfrid." "Yes, lord, I am sorry." "Your unfriendship should be redressed, but the matter of the crops must be ruled on first. Why did you leave the land fallow the extra year, Edelfrid?" "I plan to buy horses, lord, and I need a field for pasturing." "That field is not big enough for horse pasturage!" Radweld scowled. "You, neighbor," Edelfrid sneered, "have no right telling me what my land is good for!" Thornden raised the staff and brought it down hard three times. The three knocks on the floor got the two opponents' attention. "There will be order in my lord's court," Thornden said smoothly. "Thank you, Thornden," Eodwine smiled. "Here is my thought on the matter. Radweld, you did wrongfully to plant on a field not in your tenancy. For that you must pay. If Edelfrid was preparing his land for pasturage, you have stolen not only the use of his land for a crop year, but you have stolen time Edelfrid needed to turn the land to pasturage, and if Edelfrid is to hold to his plans to buy horses, he will have to pasture them elsewhere, paying rent for the right." "But-" Radweld interrupted. "I am not finished, Radweld!" The freeholder subsided. "On the other hand, Edelfrid allowed Radweld to do all the work on the field, with the hopes of gaining at Radweld's cost. This is wrongful. There is no law against it, but I would not have such things be the way things are done in my Emnet. Therefore, I rule thusly. First, that Radweld must pay a fine to me of two tenths of the worth of the crop for his wrongful use of Edelfrid's land. Second, that Radweld pay to Edelfrid double the yearly rate for rental of pasturage for two grown horses. Third, that these fines covering Radweld's wrongdoing, he is ruled as tenant of Edelfrid for the planted field, and will pay to Edelfrid a normal tenant rate for one year's use of the field, and may keep all that is left, for the sake of the work he has put into the land." Neither Edelfrid nor Radweld looked completely happy, nor crestfallen. To Eodwine's mind, that was as it should be. *********** Well? What do y'all think? Last edited by littlemanpoet; 06-23-2006 at 09:05 AM.

06-22-2006, 05:22 PM	#730
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	I think that I'm ecstatic that Saeryn didn't actually have to say anything about either farmers or land rights. __________________ peace

06-22-2006, 04:37 PM	#728
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Let's set out the issue in terms of the facts. (uh-oh, LMP's in loyer mode, now we're reeeeelly in trouble) 1. Anglo-Saxon and therefore (we are implying) Rohirric codes are what we're dealing with. 2. Both farmers A and B are tenants, not owners. 3. Until a month ago, the land was leased of the King. 4. Now by order of the King it is leased of the Eorl of the Middle Emnet, all rights and responsibilities adhering thereto. (snicker) 5. Rights of ownership adhering to the Eorl include: (1) rent, paid quarterly, in fee or kind, depending on the agreement formerly made between king and tenant; (2) upon the death of the primary tenant, the land may be handed down to the tenant's heir, which is most likely in normal situations, or to another freeholder depending upon circumstances (criminal activity, the former family line running out or dwindling, etc.). 6. Rights of tenancy: (1) use of all crops harvested (after rent is paid); (2) tenancy for the life of the tenant. There are probably more rights, but this will do for now. Now for the case at hand: 1. Farmer B wrongfully sowed and seeks to harvest crops on land not in his tenancy. 2. Farmer A was negligent in not notifying the proper authority (a shire reave for example) of the wrongful activity. 3. Farmer A must pay rent to King or Eorl for the fallow land whether or not he uses it for crops; he is expected to use it for crops, but in the semi-feudal Anglo-Saxon society, is not required to. (In post William the Conqueror Britain, by contrast, tenants were more strictly regulated.) In fact, Farmer A may be letting the field lie fallow so that it can be transformed into a horse pasture, something that is not at all uncommon in Rohan. I have half a mind to use this particular twist for the sake of our little disagreement. As for "the best use of the land", that would be more of a concern in a more tightly regulated feudal society, which Rohan (as understood as a developed Anglo-Saxon culture) is not. Farmer B should have gotten permission from our nameless Shire Reave, or else directly from the King, as there was no Eorl of the Middle Emnet when all of this happened. Formy, the feudal structure you outline is actually more in keeping with post-Williamite Britain. In the pre-Williamite there would be a King, his Earls, freeholders, then peasants. Four levels, tops. My next post is going to be an attempt at the exchange between Eodwine and the two farmers. I have a writers' group meeting starting in 1 hour, so I don't know how far I'll get.

06-22-2006, 05:49 PM	#731
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I will do so when I've more time. I'll also read your post later. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

06-22-2006, 06:47 PM	#732
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	I like it, lmp. As fair as possible to both of them, I think. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

06-23-2006, 07:19 AM	#734
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Elempi, corrections in my post are made. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to change one thing in yours. I don't think that Thornden would have to shout his order. It's not very much like him to shout. You could put- "Quite!" Thornden commanded. Or something that would imply he said it in a louder than normal voice and possibly in a dominating sort of way (that is what you wanted to imply, right?). The post looked good. Great job wading through all of the debate posted here and coming out with that. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

06-23-2006, 08:35 AM	#735
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Popping in again... ...just to inform I managed to fumble again. I was the last few weeks in Nogrod's place and started writing the post there. When I came back home yesterday, I forgot to take the half of the post with me. As I wouldn't like to rewrite it and Nogrod's now in our summer cottage, I must wait 'til Sunday that he sends it to me via e-mail and I still have to finish it, so it will be up on Monday probably. I hope that doesn't cause any trouble: I suppose we're still having the same day going on, right? __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

06-27-2006, 03:53 AM	#740
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	The post's up, a day late. Sorry. I think we shouldn't jump in time right now. It seems Cnebba and Garstan's children are just getting to know each other; I think it would nice that there would still be at least one post for them for the current day in the Mead Hall. Furthermore, when is Stigend's hiring to take place? Then, after a few today-posts we could move to tomorrow, as Fea seems to have a lot of things to write about. Then, maybe, we could jump in time. This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

06-27-2006, 09:49 AM	#741
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Okay, we'll take a pit stop into the following Day before moving on. Please try to get all you need to write into one or two posts, as I'd like us to move on to at least a week later rather soon. Don't want this to drag any more than it has started to (I realize my court date has not helped one bit, and I'm sorry about that). If you need to write more than one post for the following Day, just let me know and we'll work it out.

06-27-2006, 10:04 AM	#742
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	It will depend on how Jenny works Lin's departure. I might not even need/want to write a Farahil post. I can handle Saeryn and Degas in one post, though it will probably be absurdly long. LMP, do you want Eodwine and Degas to have their erm... chat ... sooner or later? Because if you want to hold off on it, I can keep "tomorrow" down to one post and be quite content to move on. Oh, and are Saeryn and Eodwine going to share thoughts on the court proceedings "tonight" or do you just want to do it in retrospect? __________________ peace

06-27-2006, 10:29 AM	#743
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I let it to Noggie to drag our little family along from now on; I will be running around Finland for the next four weeks... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

06-27-2006, 11:42 AM	#744
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	Angst is good. That's all I wanted to say. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

06-27-2006, 11:52 AM	#745
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	I'll try to come up with a post yet today (after the football mach is over... ), so we can see what is Eodwine's answer to our family. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

06-27-2006, 03:34 PM	#747
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	lmp: The last decision for the Eorl to ponder is in. I hope I didn't make you too nice a man... (and surely, that one could have been just a misinterpretation) __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

06-27-2006, 08:19 PM	#749
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	AIM built post coming shortly for Lin and Garstan... __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

06-27-2006, 09:18 PM	#750
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	AIM, eh? That explains it. I'm intrigued by the talk of propriety and impropriety, honor and dishonor. I'm talking as a fellow writer, not as moderator, just so that's clear. Part of me wonders how important that was to a Rohirrim as compared to a Gondorian. Doubtless, that Degas and Linduial are upperclass would make it more important than to a lowly Rohirric craftsman. I wonder if Garstan and Linduial aren't taking it all a bit more seriously than need be? Just a fellow writer wondering.... Feel free to tell me to mind my own business if you like, it's just that I'm intrigued.

06-27-2006, 09:23 PM	#751
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	The class standing definitely figures into Mr. Honor and Propriety bound Garstan's thoughts. He also has other reason to be really interested in Lin's doings that I can't post yet. That part of the equation explains his seriousness now, as well as his seriousness earlier at court... So Garstan most likely is taking things a tad too seriously, but he has his reasons. Jenny says: "Lin's almost 18, and thus her sense of melodrama is unrivaled. Too self-conscious. And I should think the honor and dishonor of great importance to a nation of semi-nomadic warriors." We're still on AIM... __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

06-27-2006, 09:26 PM	#752
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	AIM is fun. But really...Lin understands what's at stake between Garstan and herself, and also (a bit more of a superficial concern here, but she is a teenage girl, in the middle of her first real romance) really doesn't want to have to deal with her brothers, who will be greatly aware of propriety and honor in the situation, especially since she's been rather minimally chaperoned. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

06-27-2006, 09:40 PM	#753
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	So anyway, that's where we were coming from. Is there anything in particular that you think needs changing, Elempi? Say the word and I will adjust Garstan's part of the post. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

06-28-2006, 03:25 AM	#754
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Just something to consider. Whereas the noble born Linduial and Degas would be very aware of propriety and honor (must save the lady's honor for her future husband and all that), Garstan, being a humble freeman, might have a more earthy attitude toward such things. Typically in the middle ages, for example, marriage occurred after pregnancy was proven. That said, Garstan could still be quite concerned over the honor of the noble lady, the standards for whom he would know are different than those for his own class. Carry on!

06-28-2006, 04:32 AM	#755
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Sorry, need to sort out the emailing system on this thing. Ooh as to Kara, does she need to do anything right now? __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

06-28-2006, 07:39 AM	#756
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	If I may step in here and comment on this most interesting discussion... The honour and propriety bit in older times was dependant upon descreasing the worth of a family's goods and chattels, young girls being merely the property of the family, or, as LMP points out, the future husband. The concern was for damage to property, not to the personal well being of the female. As well, medieval concepts of chivalry and the like of knights and damsels and lady loves don't really pertain to Anglo Saxon culture. Reading Tolkien's letter to his son Michael might make for some interesting discussion here on 'canonical' depictions of young women. See Letter # 46, 6 -8 March 1941, pp. 48 - 54 in the HarperCollins paperback edition of 1990. What, indeed, would Tolkien do?

06-28-2006, 07:55 AM	#757
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	http://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/rohanletters.html Tolkien states the Rohirrim are not medieval. I think we run a terrible risk in assuming all aspects of culture to be identical to that of the Dark Ages, and highly doubt that a couple of Degas' and Lin's rank would be year-and-day handfasted, anyway. Nor does that happen without the interest of both families. Besides, Tolkien speaks of no couple in his histories who had children or were expecting before the fact, even among the Hobbits, who were probably the most "earthy" beings on Middle Earth. Remember, Elempi dear, that you protested hints that Saeryn might have taken a "tumble in the hay". Private trysts, I truly believe, would not be appropriate. I am sorry, Bethberry, but I have no access to the Letters. Could you provide a synopsis of the information you're referencing? __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

06-28-2006, 12:28 PM	#759
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	And of course, Garstan's concern is that the young lady's responsible relatives haven't given their approval to any courtin'. The 'business' side of her family's ability to match her properly for their purposes would be concerning to him. That letter. "In this fallen world, the friendship that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman...This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails." Tolkien meets When Harry Met Sally? __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

06-28-2006, 03:07 PM	#760
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	It's too long a letter to reproduce in full. Celuien's quote from it give as good a summary of Tolkien's point of view as any. With one addition: Men are looking for their "star". Women are more practical. So it's all about interaction between the sexes. Quite interesting reading! Some of his insights would be considered decidedly man-centered these days.