WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide?

Just because it's never happened in a game that I've been in, it doesn't mean its not allowed. That's why I wanted to know

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...

Oh my. I'm repeating Lommy now... Just as I thought you were loking a bit innocent you wrote this!

This is a different game Boro, and you know it! In this game the mutineers don't want "half-known innocents" killed by Night as they can then contribute with some credibility and are not blown away from the game entirely - so if you're innocent you could sleep half-free of concern for your own life.

You don't need the suspicion in this game as you need in normal games (trust me, I know what I'm talking about with the normal games... my only lifeline is suspcion... ). But it's different here. Were you an innocent you would know it personally but as a mutineer (or a co-conspie) it would be just theory you just didn't come to think about?

Boro, that is mutineer-talk.

[Thinlómien]

Hooray I finally managed to get Mac on the defensive! *evil grin*

Okay, first he tries to discredit my case all in all. Later he claims I had "nothing" in my accusation. Has he been reading this thread with a bag on his head. Please, Mac, go back and see I really had reasons, as much reasons as anyone can have and has had in this game.

Originally Posted by Mac

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?

Yous start sounding like Aganzir... Of course you weren't agreeing about every single thing but close enough that it disturbed me. And you can't really say your new points were of the most remarkable sort. You admitted that yourself later (you said you haven't had much points against anyone).

Originally Posted by Mac

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.

Yes and that's exactly what a wolf not under too much suspicion would do. Don't you dare to tell me that's not true. It does not prove your guilt but it is certainly not a point in favour of your innocence.

Originally Posted by Mac

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?

Well yes you continued "and with Boro afterwards" but that was not the point. The point was that if you have to go back to Day1 to find where you really disagreed with people (or, to phrase better, if that's the one you mention first) you have to admit you've been agreeing a lot.

Originally Posted by Mac

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!

But I can use it because I was the first (or the second) to say that. I'm sorry I cannot really analyse why I think so, but in this game you have to go a lot by gut-feeling and that's my gut-feeling. I can give you a general explanation and that is that there was something too purposeful in the attacks to be the sort of innocent testing attacks.

Originally Posted by Mac

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please!

With pleasure. Seriously though, I don't think Rikae's accusation was a joke even though it was phrased "light-heartedly". We can have her clear up this mess but to me it seems like she accused you of a real thing in a joking tone and you ignored the serious side and took it as a joke and that's what I think a baddie would have done - avoid the nasty question and later say "oh it was just a joke".

Originally Posted by Mac

Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

Good, good, now you're slowly turning your boat so that you can get me lynched with your swarming allies so that you don't have to incriminate yourself by killing me at Night. That's smart.

And I'm not really mad at you, I'm sorry if I sound like that, I just really think you're evil and I'm determined to get you lynched rather sooner than later. When you're dead we can be friends again.


edit: xed with everyone

[Isabellkya]

o.O @ Boro. No kidding buddy.

Innocents have no reason to twist words. Nor do they have a reason to make an assumption - based on nothing, and stick with it regardless.


You have too many or's there Lommy. It pretty much makes that entire list pretty null and void.


Hmm.
Vote time. Nerwen? Boro? Mac? Lommy?
Whoo knows.

[Eönwë]

OK... I have to go now and my brain's not working- it's too late. So I shall go with my gut feeling and vote the suspicious:

++Inziladun

Who seems to have been completely forgotten by the crew and is totally under my radar today.



G'night. If I be I still I live I be seein' ye scurvy-dogs toMorrer.


edit: x-ed many

[Boromir88]

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...~Nogrod

We had a different philosophy Nogrod, that doesn't make me evil and you know it. Did I suspect you for disagreeing with me about Mira? No. I may have not trusted your intentions when you didn't want to, but that's not why I was suspious of you. I was suspicious because of the Greenie and Eomer kills and the Day 1 lynching.

I defended my reasons, I gave what I thought was beneficial, as did Rikae. Yet you did not find Rikae suspicious over Mira's lynching just me. I won't say anymore about it, because I defended my reasons, we think differently about the subject. That's all.

And I think I've defended the reasons for wanting a double-kill suitable enough too. The more frustrating thing is this should have occurred on Day 1, like I tried to get going and talking about. But only Greenie felt the need to comment, and all you felt like saying is throwing it aside at what "little" I had to offer about the topic.

Edit crossed with a lot...Nogrod and I both managed to tell eachother "you know it" in a cross-post

[Boromir88]

You don't need the suspicion in this game as you need in normal games (trust me, I know what I'm talking about with the normal games... my only lifeline is suspcion... ). But it's different here. Were you an innocent you would know it personally but as a mutineer (or a co-conspie) it would be just theory you just didn't come to think about?~Nogrod

No offense met Nogrod, because I love WWing with you and "you know it." But don't tell me how I decide to do things and presume what is the "innocent" and "wolf" thing to do in a game like this one.

Innocents have no reason to twist words. Nor do they have a reason to make an assumption - based on nothing, and stick with it regardless.~Izzy

Words can be mis-interpretted, and thus twisted, unintentionally and innocently...it all depends upon how someone reads it. You can have two different people read the same thing and get the completely opposite interpretation.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

Now I understand what's behind it all...

Hey, that does not explain my suspicion of you, it only explains the physical agony I feel about this all.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent.

Originally Posted by Mac

What about incomplete quotes and populist tone?

Populist tone?!! *would crack up if wasn't feeling like jumping up and down*

Originally Posted by Izzy

You have too many or's there Lommy. It pretty much makes that entire list pretty null and void.

I can't. Ignore all the options, then, if it's better.

I should go to sleep now but then I'm pretty sure then Mac won't get lynched. (And I bet there's even smaller chances of getting him lynched toMorrow.) Then you all just owe me a big rep once the game is over. And I will really eat my head gladly if I've been wrong about him, I know I can get it totally wrong in ww but for now both my reason and my gut-feeling tell Mac is not innocent so I'm trusting myself about this.


edit: xed with Boro

[Isabellkya]

You keep digging yourself a hole Boro.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

You keep digging yourself a hole Boro.

You got a shovel, you can help me make it deeper.

[Thinlómien]

*raises an eyebrow*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

No offense met Nogrod, because I love WWing with you and "you know it." But don't tell me how I decide to do things and presume what is the "innocent" and "wolf" thing to do in a game like this one.

No offence intended either. I love to play with you as well...

But I think you missed the point there. I was not telling you how to play but describing the difference between this game and more normal games - and just saying that what you said about you needing suspicion to stay alive is not true in this one. It is probably true in the more normallish games but not here and you know that. So why did you defend yourself that way as it is clearly not the case in this game?

Talking about differing philosophies: you really think we should waste another lynch? As I said before (on Day1 I think): the Night kills have only us innocents as targets, the lynches include the possibility of a mutineer getting killed. And in this situation - where we have already lost one lynch - you suggest we should lose another?

Okay, different philosophy, if you wish...

[Isabellkya]

Nope. No shovel here.

You've got it all to yourself.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Sally

By the way, I'm a bit confused/curious. Can someone be killed their second time at Night, or just by lynch?

From the admin thread:

Originally Posted by Rules

When a player first dies, they become a ghost. But if they were to die again, they would no longer exist. Basically this means that the crew, aggressors, and avenger have the option to kill a player a second time if they choose, for whatever reasons.

So yes, ghosts can get killed at Night and the avenger could've hunted one.

Originally Posted by Kath

Brinn are you around? Can you tell us what's happening about Gwath?

As I've stated before, no modfire will be confirmed for a player until the beginning of the next Day. Gives the one who failed to vote twice one more chance to provide me good reason why they deserve to stay alive.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

No, that would be cheating.

Eonwe, if you're still around, you may want to bold that vote so it counts...

[Macalaure]

Okay, first he tries to discredit my case all in all. Later he claims I had "nothing" in my accusation. Has he been reading this thread with a bag on his head. Please, Mac, go back and see I really had reasons, as much reasons as anyone can have and has had in this game.

If so, then I have overlooked them. Please educate me: Show me the reasons, but please show me reasons that merited a defense.

Of course you weren't agreeing about every single thing but close enough that it disturbed me.

And if you would have put it like that earlier, I wouldn't have had to explain myself.

Yes and that's exactly what a wolf not under too much suspicion would do. Don't you dare to tell me that's not true.

Dare. Of course a wolf might do that. But what would an innocent do who is attacked by someone who he thinks is innocent? Change his opinion immediately and counter-attack, or point out what's wrong and carry on without much consequence?

Well yes you continued "and with Boro afterwards" but that was not the point. The point was that if you have to go back to Day1 to find where you really disagreed with people

Err, I think you asked me that on Day3? So Day1 is not all that far back. Also, I wanted to cover all days and state that at no time I had just been agreeing with everyone.

I can give you a general explanation and that is that there was something too purposeful in the attacks to be the sort of innocent testing attacks.

I wouldn't consider that generic, actually. If you'd add an example or two, I'd be pleased.

We can have her clear up this mess but to me it seems like she accused you of a real thing in a joking tone and you ignored the serious side and took it as a joke and that's what I think a baddie would have done - avoid the nasty question and later say "oh it was just a joke".

I don't think I ignored the serious side. At any rate my reply was not just joking. Maybe my reply wasn't very in-depth, but what would you reply to a question like that?

Good, good, now you're slowly turning your boat so that you can get me lynched with your swarming allies so that you don't have to incriminate yourself by killing me at Night. That's smart.

Oh, boy... Maybe you should read what I wrote over again. I said I still don't think you're a mutineer.



Eonwe - you didn't bold your vote!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent.

Haha! I had to check this one and you're right Lommy. The rules say it quite clearly indeed: the second lynch / kill will eliminate the player for good - and reveal her/his role.

I could see why you wished me to shut up Boro... Hopefully I've done enough damage toDay for you not wishing to pursue that any more.

[Thinlómien]

Ladies and getlemen, I'm going to sleep. Good night and Night! Lynch well (ie lynch Mac ).

But seriously, please consider my points against him before you cast your votes and please consider the strange veil of ignorance and goodwill he's wrapped on. Are so many people refraining from suspecting him or even commenting on my suspicions on him because my theory has not even the tiniest crumb of credit, or because he's evil and so many people are on his side and know it?


edit: xed with Brinn, Mac (oh no I predict I can't go to sleep yet) and Nogrod

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

*raises an eyebrow*

It's irritating because you would think people could tell when someone's trying to help or not. Then to get continually criticized for a decision you made, even after you spelled out in lots of detail why you thought it was beneficial.

You presume there's a right or wrong in how an "innocent" should act, and how a "wolf" should act, and whoever fits your presumptions, that's what you follow. But this is different, because this is a completely new set up, and it's annoying because there is an assumed "right" or "wrong" way how to win in this set up as an innocent. What did I say a couple days ago about "right" or "wrong?" In this set up there is none, because it is unfamiliar...and you have to decide between the lesser of 2 evils, but both cases suck. At least I made a decision and I could defend it, you would think whether someone agrees with you or not could see that.

[Boromir88]

I could see why you wished me to shut up Boro... Hopefully I've done enough damage toDay for you not wishing to pursue that any more.~Nogrod

I'm beginning to think I was wrong about you, and when I am, I will gladly admit it. Sometimes you have to get a little testy with people to figure them out, "I know that"

[Boromir88]

where we have already lost one lynch - you suggest we should lose another?~Nogrod

But that's the whole point of the disagreement! Whether we lost a lynch or not. Ok we did, but we either gained a day phase back, thus nullifying the loss, or a night phase allowing the Ranger and Hunter to make another choice. That's the whole point of the disagreement! You believe we lost something, Rikae and I showed the benefits of the decision and the fact that we didn't lose something.

As far as the double-kill, I said I would crunch the numbers, but it's virtually impossible to determine how many days we have left. To which I said, we may justh have to continue to go in the dark.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

As I told Rikae. Most, if not all of the times someone(s) have called my lists "fabricated" - it is because they have nasty intentions.

Yeah, and I've been proven to be the hunter now, so you really should be eating those words, not repeating them.

[Nogrod]

So Lommy raised an eyebrow for you? And that merited the kind of defence?

Over-reacting, aren't you Boro?

Heh, saw your last before sending this... "Testing" is the backbone of any game but also the most controversial thing to do - and also dangerous at times (if others join it before you have a chance to assess the reactions).

But yes, you know it and I know it... and many around know it.

And I have no vote in my hands anyway (thank God, it would be really hard to decide toDay).

Now off to Arda Football for a moment and then to sleep - via a look in here.

PS. Losing a possibility to lynch a mutineer twice in a game as mad as this where we have no clue is no question of different goodie-philosophies; it's a difference between good and evil...

Let's discuss that more later if you feel like it, but I'm off for a while now...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

If so, then I have overlooked them. Please educate me: Show me the reasons, but please show me reasons that merited a defense.

If you're interested, you must go and see them for yourself, I won't start playing games like this at 4.30am.

Originally Posted by Mac

And if you would have put it like that earlier, I wouldn't have had to explain myself.

I seldom mean everything I say totally literally. Okay, I know, you could disregard everything I say based on this but just generally, use of common sense is allowed.

Originally Posted by Mac

Dare. Of course a wolf might do that. But what would an innocent do who is attacked by someone who he thinks is innocent? Change his opinion immediately and counter-attack, or point out what's wrong and carry on without much consequence?

Wonder why the attack came and if the accusator is merely mistaken or if s/he's evil.

Originally Posted by Mac

Err, I think you asked me that on Day3? So Day1 is not all that far back. Also, I wanted to cover all days and state that at no time I had just been agreeing with everyone.

Fair point. I feel like this game has lasted for a dozen days already. Anyway, my point remains. Day1 is Day1 (ie random and yes I know all in this game is random but Day1 is still more random than others) and it is weird you mention it first. Nit-picking maybe, yes, but that's a wolf-catching trick I learned from Aganzir the Queen of Nit-picking. It shows clearly what went through your mind.

Originally Posted by Mac

I wouldn't consider that generic, actually. If you'd add an example or two, I'd be pleased.

Alright, it might be good for myself too to look at it more in-depth, but like I said it's 4.30 now and I've been silly enough to stay awake this long so I won't stay here anymore... but I'll look at it toMorrow if you two are still alive and it feels relevant.

Originally Posted by Mac

I don't think I ignored the serious side. At any rate my reply was not just joking. Maybe my reply wasn't very in-depth, but what would you reply to a question like that?

I don't know, but if I was innocent I wouldn't reply anything so wolvishly phrased. I took your reply as just joking, but if it wasn't, I must take your word for it.

Originally Posted by Mac

Oh, boy... Maybe you should read what I wrote over again. I said I still don't think you're a mutineer.

Yes, you said this:

Originally Posted by Mac

Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

And while you're not suspecting me really yet, it is like you were preparing to change your mind publicly.


edit: xed with everything

[Isabellkya]

Nope, no reason to.

You can though. I'll even sprinkle some pepper on 'em to make them go down smoother. xD

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wait a second, wait a second. How is lynching Mira (danger of being modfired) any different than lynching Gwath (danger of being modfired) and why are people flipflopping on the issue?

[Thinlómien]

I think Boro wanted to get that off his heart and doesn't want to lose my good opinion of him. Not that it tells anything of his role, any of it.

Now I'm really going! Good night everybody.


edit: xed with Shasta - there's no difference imo and no idea why they're flip-flopping unless they've seen the light

[Boromir88]

Over-reacting, aren't you Boro? ~Nogrod

Yes, I am in drama-queen mode right now...what's your point? This stinks, because you know nothing, you feel like you can't do anything about it, and when you actually do something that can be proven to have helped, you get people telling you are either an evil wolf or you made a stupid decision.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

or a night phase allowing the Ranger and Hunter to make another choice.

Which hunter? And the chance that the ranger will still be alive by then is not exactly great either (3 in 11, I think).

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wait a second, wait a second. How is lynching Mira (danger of being modfired) any different than lynching Gwath (danger of being modfired) and why are people flipflopping on the issue?

Because it's a different day, and a different situation. On Day 2, I'd rather lynch someone going than randomly choosing someone for a senseless reason.

Now, there are fewer people, a better chance of getting a wolf, and even though we have no votes, or real "evidence" there has been some better reasons against Mac, and Kath, that there simply wasn't on Day 2.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Which hunter? And the chance that the ranger will still be alive by then is not exactly great either (3 in 11, I think).

I was talking about the decision we made at the time when there was a Ranger and there was a hunter.

[Boromir88]

--Nogrod

I'm doing no good here, either wolves are intentionally getting me riled up to make me go crazy or people just like seeing me blast off.

Edit: changing the "=" signs to "-" signs

[Macalaure]

One thing to the people who've been complaining about the lack of information in this game setup: Don't forget that the mutineers got lucky and killed the seer right away. On average we'd have a lot more information with this setup. Also, we don't know how well or badly we are actually doing, so I think this criticism is rather early.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

One thing to the people who've been complaining about the lack of information in this game setup: Don't forget that the mutineers got lucky and killed the seer right away. On average we'd have a lot more information with this setup. Also, we don't know how well or badly we are actually doing, so I think this criticism is rather early.

True, we don't know...and my complaining isn't an attack against Brinn. (I hope you, Brinn, haven't taken it as such). I'm here, I may kick and scream about it, but I'm here and I'm participating because I want to be. And that is the testament to Brinn's creativity and ingenuity. I whine, but that doesn't mean Brinn's made any kind of mistake or done an awful job.

I just gripe, because the truth is it sucks to not know anything. It sucks to not be able to do what I normally would do, and when I actually do feel like I made a good choice, it sucks to get bombarded with more griping from mates about what a stupid decision you made. Even after defending it, and arguing for it, it's still "how could you even make that mistake...oh and Boro led it!" I'll admit a mistake, but in my opinion, I didn't make one with Mira...maybe I have somewhere else, only time will tell.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Nope, no reason to.

So the "one time" that person didn't have evil intent and you were the ranger is this game, then?

When you're in no danger of being lynched toDay, and have failed to protect anyone (therefore having no knowledge to offer us) you claim to be ranger?

Oh, and the votes are spread all over the place, people! At this point in the game, this is really a bad idea- wolves and cobblers can control lynch! Get your act together

[Rikae]

Possible one of "cobblers" wolf posing as cobbler...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I'm thinking this Lommy vs Mac thing looks really.... staged, for lack of a better word. I've never seen Lommy be so aggressive (unless Agan is playing... ), and Mac seems to be using all his (rather formidable) powers of intellect on barely defending himself.

[Isabellkya]

I don't claim to be Ranger.
Previous Game.

That would be an example of..... word twisting.

++Nerwen

The more I see. I don't believe the claim of Greenie, and subsequent "known-innocence" of Nerwen. She sure isn't acting like an innocent.

X'd with Shasta.

[Boromir88]

I want to trust Lommy on this one, about Mac...that was certainly a spirited back and forth.

But I don't know, there's something that doesn't sit right with those keeping out of things, and showing in with comments, or nothing at all. It gets a feeling of mutineers sitting back to watch the people trying to figure out something tear eachother apart.

I can be fairly sure, barring the unexpected, Mac will be involved tomorrow. If I can deal with the agony of not knowing about Nogrod until the end, maybe Lommy...you can handle the pain of Mac not being lynched?

++Kath

Mac will be involved, which means if he's a wolf, we'll get him Lommy. Maybe not today, but we'll get him. Mac, if you can prove you're an innocent as you say you are, than do it. (How you can prove it to me, I'll get back to you, I only read Lommy's first post against you and your response).

I chose Kath, because I don't like her vote for Gwath. It's very hypocritical of me, but I admit to being a hypocrit. It just looks like she's taking a chance to latch on to Mira's lynching. It looks like she isn't "truly" suspicious of Gwath, and just decides to cast to make a safe vote, for someone who could be mod-fired, and she can avoid the "heat."

Edit: wish I hadnt cross-posted with Izzy...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Edit: wish I hadnt cross-posted with Izzy...

Why? Please enlighten us... Because Izzy is A) a co-conspie, B) a mutineer C) you feel your vote got obsolete, D) other?

[Macalaure]

Alright, I expected to have to use my vote to save myself today, and now it suddenly seems like I actually have a chance to survive anyway and vote for someone whom I suspect. Now I need to make my mind up, which I couldn't really all day.

Vote count first, I need to know where we stand.

Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Izzy
Lommy -> Mac
Kath -> Gwath (2)
(Eonwe -> Inzy)
Izzy -> Nerwen
Boro -> Kath

Gwath is in the lead?? Yikes!