WW CI - Mutton yesterDay, mutton toDay and mutton toMorrow

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Pardon me - would it be more accurate to say that in the beginning you suggested that it might be wolf-on-wolf but suspected me more, but later in the day you were basically sure of it (suspected Inzil just as much)?

Still inaccurate, but closer, I suppose. Dun rather quickly became a foregone conclusion in my mind; I could think of no reason he would do such a thing as an innocent. So yes, I put my focus elsewhere. Where did I put my focus? Where it should have gone, which is toward who I thought could be his mate. Guess what? I thought it was (and still think it could be) you. I realize I may be wrong, and that the exchanges about him waiting to vote you until later and your references to Dueling Wizards and the way you reacted to the Morsul lynch and everything else could all be coincidental, but no one else is even giving you a proper look, so by God, I'm going to do it for them.

I'm going to say this (hopefully only) one more time: Rikae is clever. She knows how to manipulate other players. Lynching a packmate so openly is a very bold, very risky maneuver, and one I can see a wolf Rikae making. It is not out of the question for her. Stop acting like she is not intelligent enough to do something like this.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If you are innocent I suggest you look over my answers, and everything else that has happened, without the bias that seems to have taken hold of you. This village is too small for an innocent to waste a vote.

Bolding mine. That is exactly why I am pushing so hard for others to suspect you. I'll not have this game end in a loss just because the innocents weren't doing their jobs.

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae. It's not the double standard that bothers me, but rather the way in which some of you have resigned yourselves to your fate if Rikae is a wolf, going so far as to say that even if she is a wolf, she won't be lynched. What sort of an attitude is that? I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.


I need a drink.

[Rikae]

Okay, so looking over it again myself, it seems to boil down to (correct me if I'm wrong) Sally thought I was suspicious because I initially suspected Morsul, then went after the people who followed me in suspecting him. She mentions that this is what Pom did on Day 1.

Fair enough. If you really can't believe that an innocent would do that, or see why I did it, fine. I have to say, though, would hate this game if it were reduced to suspecting someone at the beginning of the Day and sticking with it forever, never changing one's mind as information emerged, let alone (God forbid!) bluffing about one's suspicions to get a read on others. I mean, if you really think I had no reason to change my mind, or didn't make a serious effort to save Morsul, fine. I said I thought it looked wolfish and Inzil in particular did, but at the time no one seemed interested in what I had to say (certainly not Sally). I can't control people as much as she seems to think I can.

At any rate, earlier she mentions having thoughts in another tab, which I suppose could have been that; later she talks about not lynching me in terms of "we just give up?", which is odd since she seems to be the only one who suspects me.

She could be a wolf with a plan but on second glance, she could be an innocent with a preconceived idea and now everything is seen through that lens. But yeah, Sally, if you're basing all this on my "flip-flop" on Morsul, maybe reread that Day; if you have decided changing one's mind in werewolf is simply a no-no, well, I can only shake my head on you.

EDIT: X'd with Sally.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae.

Well there is a remarked difference between how Brinn talked about Rikae and how she talked about you - and with a seer the point (and the devil?) is in the details.

But seeing you come down to this kind of "arguments" actually makes me suspect you more. Not to talk of this...

I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.

Would you self-vote next?

Okay, sorry about that, but what you say does really more scream wolf that sound reasonable.

But really Sally. If you're an innocent (which I seem to doubt more and more now), you should understand that what we had from Brinn is not anything conclusive but it is something.

I mean Brinn is a clever person as well and even if she might have been a bit too overconfident that she's not going to be killed, or over-cautious with giving any hints, but still her treating of Rikae looks well enough for the time being.

I don't think none of us others thinks Rikae would not be able to pull a super-show off and to use the situation to her advantage if she were a wizard. It's just that there are more reasonable explanations so far than that.

I need a drink.

I think we all need one, or two.


EDIT: X'd with the clever one...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I realize I may be wrong, and that the exchanges about him waiting to vote you until later and your references to Dueling Wizards and the way you reacted to the Morsul lynch and everything else could all be coincidental

You are wrong. And what is this nonsense about Dueling Wizards and the way I reacted to the Morsul lynch? What are you even talking about?

I'm going to say this (hopefully only) one more time: Rikae is clever. She knows how to manipulate other players. Lynching a packmate so openly is a very bold, very risky maneuver, and one I can see a wolf Rikae making. It is not out of the question for her. Stop acting like she is not intelligent enough to do something like this.

Yeah, great. I'm actually proud of catching that one wizard you keep calling "obvious", though, so apparently I'm not as clever as you believe.

Originally Posted by Sally

Bolding mine. That is exactly why I am pushing so hard for others to suspect you. I'll not have this game end in a loss just because the innocents weren't doing their jobs.

A loss for whom, I wonder.

People, please! We should not assume Rikae is innocent just because Brinn seemed to trust her. Brinn also trusted me, and I see none of you treating me in the same way you all seem to be treating Rikae. It's not the double standard that bothers me, but rather the way in which some of you have resigned yourselves to your fate if Rikae is a wolf, going so far as to say that even if she is a wolf, she won't be lynched. What sort of an attitude is that? I am sick of this village turning a blind eye to the antics of someone who is certainly intelligent enough to pull them off, and if you're not at least going to consider what I've been saying, I'm just going to let you kill me and pay the price for your ignorance. I've done my best this game, but if the village isn't going to fight back, I might as well be done.

Or maybe they think it is unlikely I'm a wolf? You know, for that matter, you have gotten a pass for a while because of your Pom vote (even though Cab's wolfishness reduces that halo effect now). People get moved onto the "innocentish" list for things like being defended by a seer (and no, I don't see any parallel between what she said about you and about me; I scoured her posts for anything useful and I didn't find anything else) and ensuring that a wolf would be lynched. Of course it's no guarantee someone is innocent, but to use logic to discern who is more likely innocent is not "being resigned to your fate". This is totally ridiculous.

I bet you wish you could have killed me without worrying about a ranger save, but this is your only option now. Right?

EDIT: X'd with Nog.

[Rikae]

You know, I still don't know what Sally means about the Dueling Wizards stuff, but it is interesting:

Right before posting on Day 1, I had the vague idea "I'll joke about the rules being like those in Dueling Wizards, and baddies will be the first to comment on this".

That's where my post about Cab, Pom and Zil came from - they commented on it.

Now Sally is trying to make something out of it. If she is a wizard, that's just beautiful: I think I'll have to do things like that more often!

[Rikae]

In before Sally accuses me of planning it all that way!

[Nogrod]

Sally / D6

Looking back at yesterDay, what kind of catches my eye is the suddenness of Sally's attack on Rikae.

It's about 4 hours in to the Day when Rikae votes Zil. Zil snaps twenty minutes later and self-votes.

Sally comes in twenty minutes after Zil's self-vote with a few comments on some people (not even mentioning Zil or Rikae). Then about an half an hour later she posts a full attack on Rikae just out of the blue. And she makes her case on other things than what had just happened, only coming to the Rikae -Zil exchange in the end of her post speculating that if they both could be wolves...

She comes back much later (after a night's sleep) and in a more conciliatory tone (understandable whatever her role), but seems to underline the possibility that if Zil is a wolf then Rikae might be one too just bussing her mate. Or that we should take what Brinn said about Rikae with a pinch of salt - speculating with the different possibilities why she might have said what she said about Rikae.

Then she says she will be back shortish and look for all, especially Zil only to come back fifty minutes before the DL saying she's still on D3, and finally posting a pretty random-looking collection of points (mostly on the first Days) 7 minutes before the DL - deciding that Zil is evil (at that point Zil had two votes and Sally herself had one).

What? Thinking Zil must be a Wizard on the basis of the first Days (last post she refers to is #383 while her own post is #660)? And then adding that Rikae could be his packmate...


This could fit a Wizard trying her best when things start to roll the wrong way.


EDIT: X'd with Rikae X2

[satansaloser2005]

Nog, there's a marked difference in that nothing. I understand how you've come to the conclusions you've come to, I really do, but you're putting too much meaning into Brinn's actions just as much as Rikae accuses me of doing with hers. Seers can be mistaken in their opinions just like the rest of us. I trust Nerwen right now more than the lot of you put together, but that doesn't mean I know her role. Why? Because the only gifted left alive is the ranger, and the only information they have is from the first Night's kill. Thus, we're all in the same boat: none of us have any concrete information.

I understand giving her some benefit of the doubt. I understand why you think she might have (repeat, might have) been dreamt by the seer. What I don't understand is why you won't use your brain and look at what she's done rather than what others have said about her. If you do a careful, thorough reading of her posts and you still think she's innocent, then fine, but stop acting like it's a foregone conclusion.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Would you self-vote next?

Obviously not. I said I'd give up, not do the wizard's job for them.

Oh, and here's Rikae herself. Lovely.

And what is this nonsense about Dueling Wizards and the way I reacted to the Morsul lynch? What are you even talking about?

Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go back through the thread, especially the last two Days. You're going to see my posts. You're going to actually read them. Then you're going to come back and realize you know the answer to that question.

Actually, I didn't make the Dueling Wizards thing clear in my post yesterDay, which is my own fault, and thus I shall explain now.

I don't think you're actually referencing the game itself. I think you're gloating about wolf-on-wolf tactics (dueling, after all, and the wolves in this game being called wizards). I think you not only were willing to resort to bussing your packmates, but happy to do so, possibly even planning to do so, because you are clever enough to realize that sort of thing works. I think the "I always suspect him, simple as that" and Dun's "++Rik.... Not yet" were clever but telling comments. I think you went for him (and thus away from Morsul) the Day before yesterDay because you wanted a solid setup for sacrificing Dun if it became necessary, which I think it did when you saw that Cab had died. I think you needed that little bit of extra leverage to get into the position you're in toDay, which is that of a trusted innocent. I think you've put on quite a show, and I think it's brilliant, but I think you need to die.

The Morsul bit is here.

Originally Posted by Rikae

....To use logic to discern who is more likely innocent is not "being resigned to your fate". This is totally ridiculous.

Oh, so you didn't read this post either.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I said- if Rikae is a wolf after all, we've aleady lost, because there's no way she's going to be lynched now unless she climbs the gallows and sticks her head in the noose. Or someone manages to make a truly damning case on her. Short of that, I think we just have to assume she's innocent now.

"We've already lost," she says. "We just have to assume," she says. We don't have to do anything, which is why I think I'm getting so upset about all of this. There's no possibility for a case against you because people have already decided you've been dreamt by the seer. You can do anything you want, short of flat out saying you're a wolf, and the rest of the village will bat their flipping eyelashes and say, "Well, Brinn spoke nicely of her, and she hasn't been that bad, so we can't lynch her."


I know I'm getting rude about this, but I've seen wolves get away with being "seer-dreamt" before, and I have no intention of it happening again.


I need to be off of here for a while. I'm going to look at the rest of you again, just in case the wizard isn't Rikae, but I don't know when I'll be back (though knowing me, I won't be able to stay away for too long, because this is really, really starting to bother me).


x'd since the post of Rikae's I quoted

[Nogrod]

Going to bed now.

Looking forwards to some input by Nerwen and espacially Kath.


EDIT:X'd with Sally

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What? Thinking Zil must be a Wizard on the basis of the first Days (last post she refers to is #383 while her own post is #660)? And then adding that Rikae could be his packmate...

I had read through the entire thread, but had only made notes on the first three Days or so. Again, I was unexpectedly handed a lot of work and obviously had to attend to that before Werewolf. I sincerely apologize for not being able to share more, but I had no choice.


x'd with Nog. Good night, dear. Sleep well.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I understand giving her some benefit of the doubt. I understand why you think she might have (repeat, might have) been dreamt by the seer. What I don't understand is why you won't use your brain and look at what she's done rather than what others have said about her. If you do a careful, thorough reading of her posts and you still think she's innocent, then fine, but stop acting like it's a foregone conclusion.

I don't think it is a foregone conclusion. Anything but.

And I could even see what you mean by telling us to read her posts. I agree she doesn't make it easy to believe in her innocence!

But Brinn sorting her out on D1 as the innocent one and then coming strongly to defend her on D3 when she was suspected by her self-vote do speak louder than other considerations right now.

If we end up lynching you Sally and you turn out innocent (your innocence being I think the least probable scenario at the moment), then it will be sure those alive toMorrow need to seriously reconsider Rikae's role.

Well everyone's role...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go back through the thread, especially the last two Days. You're going to see my posts. You're going to actually read them. Then you're going to come back and realize you know the answer to that question.

Well, that was incredibly snotty, and no. I don't. You simply mentioned it, as though it meant something. I'm actually considering not reading any more of your posts at all now, though. I don't appreciate being given orders like I'm a mentally challenged child.

I don't think you're actually referencing the game itself. I think you're gloating about wolf-on-wolf tactics (dueling, after all, and the wolves in this game being called wizards). I think you not only were willing to resort to bussing your packmates, but happy to do so, possibly even planning to do so, because you are clever enough to realize that sort of thing works.

Um, wait, so you think I'm so clever, I hinted about what I was supposedly planning on doing as a baddie? Very clever. Thanks so much for that great compliment.

I think the "I always suspect him, simple as that" and Dun's "++Rik.... Not yet" were clever but telling comments. I think you went for him (and thus away from Morsul) the Day before yesterDay because you wanted a solid setup for sacrificing Dun if it became necessary, which I think it did when you saw that Cab had died. I think you needed that little bit of extra leverage to get into the position you're in toDay, which is that of a trusted innocent. I think you've put on quite a show, and I think it's brilliant, but I think you need to die.

Just vote me and be done with it: you apparently aren't going to consider any other possibility.

Oh, so you didn't read this post either.

I read all of the posts. Unfortunately.

"We've already lost," she says. "We just have to assume," she says. We don't have to do anything, which is why I think I'm getting so upset about all of this.

IF I'm a wolf, she says. But apparently you missed the bit where she doesn't think I am. You think I am: great. Go on and vote for me. Do your best to get everyone else to. I'm done talking to you, though.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, that was incredibly snotty, and no. I don't. You simply mentioned it, as though it meant something. I'm actually considering not reading any more of your posts at all now, though. I don't appreciate being given orders like I'm a mentally challenged child.

I didn't simply mention it. It's quite a bit of the post, actually. But again, I'll explain. You were set to lynch Morsul. You said so yourself. Others started voting for him, you cried setup, and then you backed off like crazy. The next Day, you acted as though you knew he'd be innocent. I know you said you changed your mind. Fair enough, but also convenient. You prepared for the lynch, but you had no blood on your hands because you didn't actually vote for him. What a delicious place for you to be in.

It's not my fault you seem to have blatantly chosen to ignore that post, belittle it, in fact, and then be rude to me afterward. I don't appreciate you saying I'm "terribly ridiculous" or that you're going to shake your head at me. It's rude. It's uncalled for. So yes, I've snapped, but only because you're being incredibly frustrating and, after I decided to leave you alone earlier in the game because I didn't want to upset you, this is the thanks I get. Gee, thanks a lot. What would you prefer? Should I have said something earlier on and had you rage quit? Would that have been better? It certainly wasn't my desire, but at this point, I'm regretting not saying anything sooner.


I'm off here for the night. I'm getting too angry and I really have better things to do.

[Rikae]

And that has what do do with dueling wizards?

No, you didn't explain your (absurd) dueling wizards theory until now, or if you did I somehow completely missed it.

Bah. I told myself I'd get out of this discussion.

If you aren't evil, the real wolf is laughing in the shadows now.

after I decided to leave you alone earlier in the game because I didn't want to upset you, this is the thanks I get. Gee, thanks a lot. What would you prefer? Should I have said something earlier on and had you rage quit? Would that have been better?

What? Really? Is that what you think of me?

Wow, and I thought you were insulting before.

I don't even care what your role is anymore.

++Sally

[Rikae]

Incidentally, if I ever think about signing up for one of these games, someone please remind me that I don't want to play them anymore.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I don't appreciate you saying I'm "terribly ridiculous" or that you're going to shake your head at me. It's rude.

Not "you are ridiculous". Your point. Your idea (if that's what it was). But I'm not surprised you didn't understand that. Fits the pattern.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

What? Really? Is that what you think of me?

You'd self-voted, you had RL things going on (if I didn't already say it, my condolences, by the way), and things were already heated enough (mostly between you and Nerwen) without me getting involved and yammering on about how I thought you might be a wolf too (though I'll admit I was more focused on Morsul and Gil at the time, so leaving you alone wasn't much of a chore). I hadn't entirely made up my mind, and I didn't want to make things worse, so I moved on. So is that what I think of you? Is what I think of you that I didn't want to make your day even worse when I had better candidates to go for? Is what I think of you that I actually care more about your feelings than the game? Yeah. That's what I think of you. So if you're going to get even more upset because I "suddenly" suspected you, that's what's going to happen, and if it gets me lynched, I'll be upset, but I won't regret it.

Originally Posted by Sally

Rikae seems like the stressed and overreacting innocent Rikae I've seen in the past. Leave her alone, at least for toDay. I'm not touching the other side of that show either. Nerwen is stressed out, and I'm going to let these shenanigans be bygones and move on. I think the entire thing has been blown out of proportion. We can review it toMorrow when everyone has calmed down and go from there.

As for my "sudden" suspicion, I'll remind everyone of Sally's participation during the Days in question.

The Day Gil was lynched: I gave Rikae a pass for the Day because of everything that was going on (as quoted above).

The Day Morsul was lynched: I wasn't even around. The few posts I made were from my iPad without even having read the thread. I thought I'd be able to read through and do more posting when I got home, but it wasn't possible; for anybody who cares, we had quite a bit of bad weather and I didn't make it home until after deadline.

The Day Dun was lynched: Well, we know that already. I went for Rikae right off (after making one post reflecting briefly on the Night's events) and have been doing so ever since.

When was I supposed to share my suspicions between Gil's lynch and Dun's self-vote? Really, when?

Bah. I really need to get away from this. Curse me for needing to check my e-mail and being unable to avoid the Downs. Then again, this (which I'd missed before, whoops) makes me feel a bit better.

Originally Posted by Nog

I don't think it is a foregone conclusion. Anything but.

And I could even see what you mean by telling us to read her posts. I agree she doesn't make it easy to believe in her innocence!

At least I'm not crazy. Granted, it's coming from my next top suspect (given my feelings at the end of yesterDay anyway), but at this point I'll take whatever I can get. Thank you, Nog. Seriously, regardless of anybody's role, thank you for at least acknowledging that something's shifty there. I appreciate it, and it helps a lot.


I'm going to go to bed, I'm going to stop thinking about Werewolf, and I'm going to get some sleep. When I wake up in the morning, I will decide how I feel about the other three players in the game. You'll hear from me again then.


x'd with Rikae

[Rikae]

No, you're not crazy. I suppose your reasons to suspect me are as good as any of the reasons I suspected anyone, and they just look absurd to me because I know they're false. In fact, they're very similar to some of the stuff I said about Inzil (about things possibly being wolfish sarcasm/joking).

I'm probably just being hypocritical here, both with the rudeness (not realizing how bad the stuff I say sounds) and with the suspicion.

I mean, two people think I'm suspicious = I know at least one of them is telling the truth!

Not saying I think anybody is more or less evil on that basis, just that I realize my perspective might seem to make more sense to me than it really does.

I still think, and I don't want to be insulting about this, but anyone who is in the situation I was in (changing your mind but not influencing anyone else) could be accused of being a wolf avoiding participation in a bandwagon. I would hope the details would be of some importance. I mean, for a wolf to come out all gung-ho with a blatant accusation, and then just as blatantly accuse the people who follow it, is anything but subtle and safe! I think if I had wanted to influence a lynch without getting my hands dirty, I would have gone about it in a less memorable fashion!

But yeah, that's what I say and you can believe it or not.

[Rikae]

That last line had the wrong tone. I mean, that's what I say and people can always disbelieve it; nothing I can do about that.

[Nerwen]

Just to lighten the atmosphere, I wish to say that I really found this little aside aside quite amusing:

Originally Posted by Sally

...Rikae's flip flop (though not in the style of either of our wonderful mods)...

[Nerwen]

About yesterDay: what I'm thinking is that Zil and his comrades, McCaber and The Unknown Wolf might have thought they were likely to lose him soon, and might even have come up with a plan to bus him. But– as I said here, McCaber's death would have been a nasty shock to them, and obviously changes the dynamic quite considerably. So it's a question of whether they would have stuck to such a plan after that. Zil, at least, gives me quite the impression of someone who would have preferred to stay alive– I think the motivation behind his self-vote was that "it worked for Rikae", rather than that he was truly resigned to being lynched.

[Nerwen]

Also, about Rikae:

Thing is, I don't, and never did, agree with the consensus that Rikae's self-vote and loss of temper "screamed innocent". I have seen her act just like that as an innocent, and I've seen her act just like that as a wolf. Not that I mean she would fake it, but, you know, wolves can get angry and frustrated too. (Besides, two of those strongest in pushing that line were Zil and McCaber.)

On the other hand, this "flip-flopping" business on Morsul the Day before yesterDay, that Sally sets so much store by– no, I really don't see anything in that. Sometimes one sees a player as guilty early in the piece... and then comes back towards the end of the Day and finds that *everyone's* for lynching that person– and wonders why the calvary hasn't ridden to the rescue.

[Nerwen]

Having read through yesterDay, I must say things don't look good for Sally. Her scorching attack on Rikae does indeed look as if she's trying to provide an alternative target, or at least a distraction. Later, after other players concur in finding Zil suspicious, she starts heavily pushing the notion that Rikae and Zil are packmates. And at all times her focus is on Rikae rather than Zil– even though he was the main issue of the Day, Sally barely mentions him except to try and connect him with Rikae.

Really, on the face of it, it seems as if there should be no question about whom to lynch toDay.

And yet– I am worried that maybe things are not as they seem. Just as I have seen a guilty Rikae act just like a "frustrated innocent", I have seen an innocent Sally act much like this. Also– would a Sallywolf fasten on Rikae? I'd say anyone else would have made an easier target at that point.

I'm just saying, it's entirely possible they're both innocent, and the real wolf is maybe Little Miss Submarine.

[Nerwen]

It could be Nog, too. The McCaber revelation may make him look better, but it doesn't actually clear him, since it would have been a matter of which fellow to sacrifice. Still, if it were me I'd have tried to save the more experienced wolf, i.e. McCaber.

[Kath]

Nog! Never have I been so insulted! Except I really have been no use and I am sorry. I'm here for a little now and then will be here for the last few hours before deadline.

Kath, Nerwen, Rikae, Nog and sally left. One is a wolf, one is the ranger, three innocent.

Is it worth the Ranger revealing toDay? Say if sally was the Ranger and revealed, that leaves us with 4 unknowns rather than 5. Bad luck we lynch an innocent we're down to 1 wolf and 3 innocents. Ranger gets Night killed we're down to 1 wolf and 2 innocents and have to get it right toMorrow.

The maths is still the same even without the reveal but it would give a bit of a rallying point. I'm just flat out fed up of coming to read the thread and wanting to leave because I'm uncomfortable with these horrible exchanges. That's not werewolf, that's personal. To have a 'known' innocent (assuming we trust the reveal or there's not a counter reveal or a triple, double bluff reveal!!) would be nice!

On to more thread-based topics. I do still suspect sally but whether innocent or guilty I can understand her frustration with the easy ride Rikae seems to be getting. That said, I would like some evidence for sally's assertion that 'Brinn trusted me'. We saw the Rikae evidence but was there actually any for sally?

Nerwen is also right about Rikae. I have seen her behave this way as many times guilty as innocent. Our own reading of Brinn's dreams could well be wrong. However, that's all we have. Maybe it's a mass delusion but I'm with Nerwen on having to hope it's not.

Nog - now for as much as he says he has no read on me I have to say I feel the same about him. Will definitely have a proper look at him later.

My POV just based on read through not actually analysing anyone:
Gut says sally.
Annoyance says Rikae.
Unknown-entity-fear says Nog.
Appear to feel fine about Nerwen.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

On the other hand, this "flip-flopping" business on Morsul the Day before yesterDay, that Sally sets so much store by– no, I really don't see anything in that.

I agree. Let's also remember it was Morsul we are talking about: hardly someone you'd have to push subtly or very openly to make other people think he might be suspicious...

With players like Gil and Morsul suspicion comes quite naturally because of the way they play. One can agree with a suspicion or even point it out, but can also jump from frustration if most people take the "easy way" bandwagoning a lynch on that kind of players.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Nog! Never have I been so insulted! Except I really have been no use and I am sorry.

Oh, please Kath, don't you start that as well...

Is it worth the Ranger revealing toDay? Say if sally was the Ranger and revealed, that leaves us with 4 unknowns rather than 5. Bad luck we lynch an innocent we're down to 1 wolf and 3 innocents. Ranger gets Night killed we're down to 1 wolf and 2 innocents and have to get it right toMorrow.

It's a complicated issue and naturally should be left to the ranger to decide.

Yes the ranger coming forwards would give us one innocent toDay - and quite for certain as the Wizard would probably not try to counter-reveal as we'd win then either toDay or toMorrow knowing another innocent wouldn't fake.

But it has a downside which is that the ranger would be dead toMorrow and couldn't try to save anyone the coming Night.

Sure there is at least one wild plot we could try to pull out with this revealment-stuff but I'm afraid it is too risky and could only confuse us.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

Is it worth the Ranger revealing toDay? Say if sally was the Ranger and revealed, that leaves us with 4 unknowns rather than 5. Bad luck we lynch an innocent we're down to 1 wolf and 3 innocents. Ranger gets Night killed we're down to 1 wolf and 2 innocents and have to get it right toMorrow.

I don't see the point of this, unless the Ranger is actually in danger of being lynched. Unless he or she can give us a second innocent, i.e. the person protected Night One is still alive. Not sure how likely that is, though– in fact, I suspect that might have been Volo.

[Nerwen]

Okay. I just have to vote now. I've delayed it as long as I could– and it's unlikely I'll be back again toDay.

I just can't sort out the Sally-Rikae business. It's either two innocents having a row or a wolf having a fight with an innocent– that much is certain, but at the moment I'm just not sure which.

++Kath

for possibly voting to help Zil yesterDay and for possibly trying to draw out the Ranger just then. Note that I said "possibly". That's all it is. I certainly don't claim I could make any proper case on her.

I'm sorry I can't be more help toDay. Good luck, anyway.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, about Rikae:

Thing is, I don't, and never did, agree with the consensus that Rikae's self-vote and loss of temper "screamed innocent". I have seen her act just like that as an innocent, and I've seen her act just like that as a wolf. Not that I mean she would fake it, but, you know, wolves can get angry and frustrated too. (Besides, two of those strongest in pushing that line were Zil and McCaber.)

I'm actually glad someone recognizes this. Ever since that game where I was a wolf and got mad at people going after an innocent Mac, people have been saying I'm so tricksy and false and everything, when I was actually genuinely mad.
The same things often annoy me regardless of my role (people saying things that seem simplistic, don't make sense to me, or seem to take werewolf itself in a direction I don't appreciate). Besides, I'm not proud of my temper and wouldn't want to benefit from it in any way.

About Kath: well, I was kind of hoping for a ranger reveal and a known innocent myself, so I can't suspect her on that basis. A vote for her feels like a shot in the dark.

Nerwen and Nog are both ringing alarm bells and either one could have been my top suspect in a different group. The wolves have done a good job of leaving people alive who are difficult to read and trust (myself included).

On that note, (to Sally in particular), if Brinn did dream of me on Night 1 she almost certainly did so because I'm supposedly so hard to read/always suspicious or whatever my reputation is, in which case it would be a shame to throw away the one bit of useful information our seer managed to give us. I mean, I suppose the wolves left me alive on the assumption I could still talk my neck into a noose, or at least lead people astray. I might be doing just that: I wish there were retractions, because I wanted to vote thoughtfully toDay, not impulsively!

About Nog and Nerwen: the former is playing very carefully, and doesn't really seem to be making that much effort to find wizards. From an innocent Nog I'm used to seeing wild schemes and trickery, rants about submarines, etc.
Nerwen doesn't seem quite right either; in this case, it's all the talk of what the wolves are thinking, and vehemence about what that might be and why wolves do this or that. No, that's not always suspicious, but if there is anything a wolf might get genuinely annoyed at, it is being suspected for the wrong reasons! Perhaps she speaks the truth about gunning for the seer? Didn't Volo also suspect her? Perhaps their plan was "kill Volo and try to pass off the reason as Rikae rather than Nerwen"? I'll have to go back and look at Volo's posts to see if this makes sense, because right now I just remember Nog mentioning Nerwen as a possibility.

And, on the other hand, the fact that Sally got that upset about having her theories dismissed suggests those theories are honestly held.

No, I'm really not very sure about my vote anymore at all. Yes, I could do that as a wolf: pretend to make a vote in anger and then regret it, in order to absolve myself of responsibility and set up my suspicions for the next day. I could, but it would be extremely risky when I'm already under fire for "flip-flopping", and it would also border on unethical by my standards (like I said, I'm not proud of my temper and don't want to benefit from it. I start every game hoping to play it cool, regardless of my role, and I fail every time. )

[Nogrod]

Nerwen's vote on Kath was a welcome reminder to me that this is not over yet - even if I tend to suspect Sally a bit more than anyone else at the time (although puzzled with her freaking out - you know Rikae you have a talent in drawing that behaviour on others? ) and am afraid that if we don't lynch her toDay we'll be facing a real dilemma toMorrow unless we get the last Wizard (other than Sally, that is) toDay.

Nerwen's vote both reminds me of the possibility that she is the last Wizard as it speaks volumes on behalf of her innocence! I'm leaning towards the latter though as it seems the last Wizard would not like to appear controversial at this point - and argumentwise I'd say Sally looks the clear favourite to be the lynchee. So going againts that would be unnecessary for the Wizard.

Btw. the point I had between the relation of Volo's death and Nerwen's innocence was and is, shortly made, the following: Volo made those seer-remarks early on D1 (in his first post) and Nerwen was one among the few he suspected. On the next Day he dropped his suspicions on her - and even went on to say this (bolding mine):

Originally Posted by Volo

I've done quite a lot of rethinking about my attitude towards her yesterday, since it bugged me that I ended up voting her while not too sure about her guilt, the other candidates felt less suspicious. I admit, I have a hard time getting a read on her, but I feel like I've lost my case.

So both pointing to doing something yesterday aka. by Night + saying he feels he's lost his case against her.

Now if Nerwen is an innocent - which the Wizards would know - that would look pretty seerish. And well, Volo is dead after that.

Also, while I agree on the substance of what you say Rikae about the possibility that Brinn wished to check you for the reasons you state, I'm kind of uneasy with the fact that you think it important to actually state them yourself at this point.

Tricksy this is...

[satansaloser2005]

Hello, all. I have returned, and am currently working on a more thorough (hopefully) analysis of Kath in another tab. I will be around for the rest of the Day with a large glass of chocolate milk, My Little Pony, and fuzzy blankets. Ahhhh. Wonderful.

[Rikae]

Of course it's important to mention it, Nog. If Sally is innocent we can't afford to have an innocent vote wasted on me at this point in the game.

I'm really getting tired of everyone pointing out how awful a person I am. I'm not going to say any more about it, but I'm getting tired of it. I know people dislike me, and I know they have good reason to, but can we just drop it and finish the game, please?

[Nogrod]

That said, here's what I think now.


Sally - It's firstly and foremostly her sudden attack on Rikae yesterDay after Zil got majorly suspected - and the small things matter; she seemed to have more or less concentrated on Rikae and not paying too much attention to the possibility that Zil could be the Wizard. Surely an innocent had also tried to think about that possibility, but if you have a mission to accomplish that kind of things are easily forgotten.

That point I need to check back though before voting as even if that is how I remember it went yesterDay and someone (Rikae?) commented on it toDay - I have to read it myself to be sure I'm not being blindly walked by someone (especially Rikae if it was her) here.


Rikae - Even if her temper and self-votes - and other early votes - do not make it any easier to trust her, I'm still leaning on her being our safest bet for an innocent just because of what Brinn said and how she defended her vehemently in the tightest spot. And while saying that I'm very much aware I could be wrong here.

I'd not be happy to see her lynched toDay, but if we don't get a wizard toDay, I'd say toMorrow she should be as liable to be lynched as anyone. So no eternal vetoes for her, but yet I think we have better candidates toDay.


Nerwen - Well I wrote about why I think her more likely innocent than not on my post above. What scares the living daylights from me is that at the same time I know her being one of the smartest and most coherent players there are - and it's hard if not impossible to catch her lupine-version from a slip or a blunder as she just doesn't seem to make them.


Kath - I'm really torn with her, the basic point being what I made earlier, that she is out of time and plays reasonably. The problem being, that both a troll and a wizard, if being intelligent and facing the situation Kath has, could have done the same thing.


EDIT: X'd with Sally & Rikae

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm really getting tired of everyone pointing out how awful a person I am. I'm not going to say any more about it, but I'm getting tired of it. I know people dislike me, and I know they have good reason to, but can we just drop it and finish the game, please?

I love you Rikae. Remember that. And I think that at least all of us who know you love you - with all your temper.

But yes, let's get this game packed, preferably toDay.


And everyone: let's play civil for the rest of the game.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kath

"If ever oh ever a wiz there was the wizard of Oz is one because; because, because, because, becaauuuuusssee ..."

Wait, wait, wait, wrong kind of wizard right? I mean I haven't seen any green city round here, and no hot air balloons either. Maybe that clears Green of being an evil wizard type. Or maybe that's what she wants us to think and she's really green as ... as ... a really green evil thing. Like spinach.

Eurgh. Spinach. Just thinking of that has me feeling sick. I'm out of here.

This was a basis of suspicion for some people. I can see it, and if Kath were a bold wolf, this could have been an overt attempt to let the cobbler know who's boss, but honestly, given how early it was, and how she responded to others' reactions to it, I think it was just random. There wasn't much to go on at the time, and Kath does enjoy the wacky, so I think this was just silliness. Innocent or wizard silliness, I don't know, but I really don't think anything was meant by it.

Originally Posted by Kath

Had found myself worrying about Volo. There seemed to be a lot of looking at what everyone else had done and not giving much away. Then suddenly he comes out with big bold statements which made me feel a lot better about him.

Originally Posted by Kath

Am still worried about Volo having re-read my thoughts. Don't like that he was suspicious of me for possibly deliberately failing to respond to a comment on me being Cobbler-ish. Also he did spend nearly the whole Day not giving strong opinions on anything. Will see if looking at toDay changes my mind on that.

I think these two bits about Volo are Kath legitimately not being able to make up her mind. In the former, she says she worries about him, then that some of his posts make her feel better, but in the latter she goes back to being worried.

The point I would like to make here, however, is that she doesn't call him suspicious. She doesn't say he might be a wizard. She says she worries about him. If we go back to the theory (which I hold at least a little stock in) that Volo was killed because the wizards thought he might be the clever troll, it's entirely possible Kath could have picked up on that and been making a note there, either for her own benefit or for that of her guild mates. Speaking of which....

Originally Posted by Kath

Quick note having read the narration - I don't think it's a surprise Volo was killed. When I was posting about him yesterDay I kept having freak-outs that his weird behaviour could be Seerish. Least we got lucky with him being the Cobbler rather than the actual Seer!

She even says she thought he could have been the seer. So, you know, not good.

Originally Posted by Kath

Question about the Rikae debacle: has she actually quit? 'Cause if she has we're down another player assuming Bane is modkilled toDay. And if she has quit when will her death occur. ToNight? ToMorrow's end of Day? Having dead weight hanging round without knowing the role will be irritating for trying to work out roles. How many wizards are we after, if the Seer (assuming she isn't it) is lynched/killed are there Gifted's left to be aware of etc.

Kath is asking questions here I'm not entirely comfortable with. I understand the desire to know what's going on, but if Rikae is innocent, I could see this as a Kath jumping up and down to see who all will be struck down without effort.

In fact, the fact that she specifically said, "Are there gifteds left to be aware of, etc." really looks quite bad. After all, who would be the most interested to see if the gifteds are dead? The wolves.

Originally Posted by Kath

I am a weeny bit confused. sally posts this, stating she thinks Gil is unlikely to have been dreamed a wolf as Seer-Brinn would have pushed much harder for the lynch had she dreamed him.

But there's no explanatin of how Gil is suspicious in a way other than being a potential dreamed wolf. sally then votes Gil with no further explanation than 'you're suspicious'.

I don't like it.

This was explained by Nerwen and possibly others. I have no problem with Kath finding that strange, as I know she's been pressed for time. I could see an evil Kath using this to try to spin people against me, but I could just as easily see an innocent Kath missing something and acting on inaccurate information. This could really go either way, so....nothing here, I guess?

Originally Posted by Kath

I would say it is the 'if it came between him and Rikae' bit that's important. She is making a very clear statement that she won't vote Rikae. I'd say she was the dream there.

I won't completely dismiss Kath's point here. Yes, Brinn seemed to trust Rikae more than Morsul, but let's add some context to her (Brinn's) statement. We all know how Morsul was acting. Between Morsul and Rikae, on any given Day, Morsul is probably going to be acting more suspicious. Again, I'm not denying the fact that Brinn could have dreamt Rikae, but she also could have expressed this preference because of their actions or because she didn't have a clue and flipped a coin or simply because she enjoys playing with Rikae. Between Rikae and Morsul, she preferred to lynch Morsul, but that was also a choice between Rikae and Morsul, so let's not forget that. And I swear, that's all I'm saying on that matter.

She then brings up the thing about me and Gil again, which at this point no longer seems like a Kath who didn't know any better, but rather a Kath with an agenda.

The next Day(s) she goes after me and has been consistent more or less ever since. Okay, fair enough, I suppose, but....you know you misunderstood the whole Gil thing, right?

Originally Posted by Kath

Is it worth the Ranger revealing toDay? Say if sally was the Ranger and revealed, that leaves us with 4 unknowns rather than 5. Bad luck we lynch an innocent we're down to 1 wolf and 3 innocents. Ranger gets Night killed we're down to 1 wolf and 2 innocents and have to get it right toMorrow.

The maths is still the same even without the reveal but it would give a bit of a rallying point. I'm just flat out fed up of coming to read the thread and wanting to leave because I'm uncomfortable with these horrible exchanges. That's not werewolf, that's personal. To have a 'known' innocent (assuming we trust the reveal or there's not a counter reveal or a triple, double bluff reveal!!) would be nice!

I'm sorry, but no. As Nerwen said, I don't like the push for the ranger to reveal; at this point, the only thing it's going to do is get them killed.

Originally Posted by Kath

I would like some evidence for sally's assertion that 'Brinn trusted me'. We saw the Rikae evidence but was there actually any for sally?

Not much, to be honest. I mostly used myself to make a point. Here is what Brinn had to say on me.

Originally Posted by Brinn

I don't like all of Sally's bantering, but then again it is Sally.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Sally: Voted for Pom. Most of her posts are banter, which isn't helpful. But her late vote for Pom makes me inclined to think she's innocent.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Looking Innocentish
Sally
Rikae
Copper
Greenie
Shasta

Originally Posted by Brinn

Sally: I suppose there's always the possibility she's a very sneaky wizard who threw her mate under the bus, but I see no reason to suspect her.

So, you know, Brinn never suspected me either, which is the point I was trying to make earlier. It doesn't mean she dreamt me though, just that she trusted me (which again, is the point I was trying to make earlier, blah blah).

Originally Posted by Kath

Nerwen is also right about Rikae. I have seen her behave this way as many times guilty as innocent. Our own reading of Brinn's dreams could well be wrong. However, that's all we have. Maybe it's a mass delusion but I'm with Nerwen on having to hope it's not.

Nog - now for as much as he says he has no read on me I have to say I feel the same about him. Will definitely have a proper look at him later.

Kath has spent much of the game having no read on people. I'm not implying she's done it intentionally -I honestly believe she's been busy- but it's also a convenient place for a wolf to hide.


Conclusion: Suspecting someone (who suspected her, by the way) of being a seer and having that person conveniently die, continuing with a flawed logic even after it was explained to her, being pretty vague on everyone but the person she's been voting, suggesting the ranger reveal toDay, saying she might vote Rikae just out of annoyance....yeah, I'm not so sure now the wizard couldn't be Kath.

You know, I think maybe you're all evil.

[Kath]

Oh bless you Nog I was kidding! I am not the least bit offended. Will remember to put a smiley next time.

Now, it has taken me 40 minutes to get to a posting screen for this thread. For that reason I am going to vote now because there is no guarantee that I will actually be able to post again.

Having read through since I left Nog's post about Nerwen has made me feel much better about him. I think trying to push another player as innocent would be an odd thing for a wolf to do. I am going to trust Brinn and assume Rikae is innocent.

That leaves me with Nerwen and sally. Now, Nog's point on Nerwen regarding Volo is a very interesting one and tallies with my feeling that Nerwen probably is innocent.

For good or ill I'm sticking with:

++sally

Fingers crossed we finish toDay so my stupid issues stop affecting the game!

[Rikae]

Aw, thanks Nog.

Originally Posted by Sally

she doesn't call him suspicious. She doesn't say he might be a wizard. She says she worries about him.

and

Originally Posted by Sally

the fact that she specifically said, "Are there gifteds left to be aware of, etc." really looks quite bad

Yeah, it really does. I didn't notice Volo's comments about Kath and her reaction to it, but it could very well be that her "worry" was about a seer.

Especially since she later says he looked like a seer to her! I found that comment a bit odd at the time because I see no reason why he should have looked seerish, but in light of her "worried" remark and possible wizardry, it makes sense.

EDIT: X'd with Kath.

[satansaloser2005]

Entirely too quick summation of a few of my problems with Nog, in case I don't have time to do a longer one:

The Day Oz died, a wizard Nog would have been in an excellent position (with the targets being Morsul, Volo, and Oz). Thus, his willingness to wait for me (as it were) could have been an innocent wanting to unite or a baddie waiting to see where the wind was going to blow. His "This turns out interesting indeed!!!" still rubs me the wrong way.

YesterDay toward the end, he actually seemed to be considering voting for someone other than Dun, offering the possibility of me and Nerwen as a wolf pair and wanting to act upon that. Why do this at so late an hour?

And then toDay, after saying for a while that Rikae couldn't be guilty, he admits that her behavior has in fact been suspicious. I'm not sure if it's just an attempt to make me feel better, but....I don't know, man, this whole situation's gone nuts, so I'm going to ignore that for the moment and look at it again later.

We have another hour. I'll try to look at Nog more closely, but I have other things to do as well, so it'll probably not be all that long. I won't get to Nerwen, I believe, but I stick to my opinion of her. My gut is never right (and thus never wrong) with Nerwen. Besides, she won't be back, so if she happens to be the ranger, she'd have no opportunity to defend herself.

x'd since my last

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, and this!

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I love you Rikae. Remember that. And I think that at least all of us who know you love you - with all your temper.

Ditto. *snuggles Rikae and Nog*