20 Questions on ME

[Mithalwen]

Alive? No
Place? No
Has a name in a language created by Tolkien? No
Object? Yes
First Age? No
Man-made? Yes
Third age? Yes
A sword? No.
Could it be picked up by Aragorn? Yes
Is it a hobbit thing? Again an ambiguous question but no.
Made by Feanor? No, well neither known to be or likely to be.
Made of wood? No
A Jewel? No
A standard? No
Made from material of plant origin? No
Could Eowyn wear it? Yes
A helmet? No

[Galadriel55]

So what can you wear that is not plant-based in an age without polyesther? Woolen clothes. Metal armour. Weapons that aren't swords. Jewelry/decoration without an actual jewel in it. Belts and brooches. Horns. Leather shoes. Crowns. Detachable Balrog wings.

Joking about the wings, but that aside - we haven't narrowed it down one bit!

I agree with Hui that other weapons are unlikely as spears, arrows, bows, clubs all usually contain an element of wood, and shields as well. Woolen clothes and leather shoes - it would have to be a specific enough item, not just that hobbit's other uncle's cousin-in-law's friend's woolen cloak. Is there any specific note of clothes and shoes that you recall with reference to their material? Metal armour and chainmail are more than possible. So are decorations, brooches, belts, crowns, and horns.

Going through specific items knowing that it's not a "hobbit thing": none of the hobbits' gear, including the knives, mithril coat, Merry and Pippin's Lorien belts, Merry's horn, Frodo's pearl, One Ring and its chain, Sherrif feathers. I am not sure if I can exclude Lorien brooches altogether, but as Pippin's was the only notable one and we're talking singular object they can be put aside.

Enough about what it's not; what could it be still? Boromir's remarkable gear - his horn and Lorien belt. Aragorn's crown, and various lesser known crown-like objects. Any unnamed Ring - in particular Thrain's Ring, Saruman's makeshift ring. Ring of Barahir is out because First Age too. The Hobbit stuff: the necklace Bilbo gives to Thranduil. Stuff from earlier times. Lots of things I can't remember.

Oh, and there is the matter of "not likely" made by Feanor, ie maker unknown. Therefore horn is out, unnamed Rings are out, Lorien wearables are probably out as they were made tailored to the Fellowship. Orcish / outright evil stuff is also out.


So... three questions left...

Would Eowyn wear this thing on her head?

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Mithalwen;720430]Alive? No
Place? No
Has a name in a language created by Tolkien? No
Object? Yes
First Age? No
Man-made? Yes
Third age? Yes
A sword? No.
Could it be picked up by Aragorn? Yes
Is it a hobbit thing? Again an ambiguous question but no.
Made by Feanor? No, well neither known to be or likely to be.
Made of wood? No
A Jewel? No
A standard? No
Made from material of plant origin? No
Could Eowyn wear it? Yes
A helmet? No
Would Eowyn wear it on her head? No.

Any other answer would be too loose an interpretation of wear and also not something in my humble opinion to be likely behaviour.

[Galadriel55]

Well darn.

[Mithalwen]

There has been a lot of good thinking unfortunately allied with a rather scattergun approach to questions But I am not going to comment any further just now.

[Urwen]

Would she wear it on her body?

[Mithalwen]

What do you mean by body? I can’t see where else she could wear it. Or do you mean torso? Or are you making a distinction between could and would?

[Urwen]

Armor?


(And I meant covering her whole body, like an armor would.)

[Urwen]

Hello?

[Urwen]

Still waiting for a response to my guess...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Still waiting for a response to my guess...

It's ok, there's no rush. Think what would be the most probable thing should armour not be the case - after all it seems like a fairly specific object, not just some vague armour of soldier #3. Is there any specific armour that would be remarkable in a way you can easily name? If not, what would be the next guess? What else seems likely given what we know?

[Urwen]

Not sure? Maybe a shield?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Not sure? Maybe a shield?

That isn't made of wood? We gotta be careful with the next question, we have only 1 guess left before we reach 20 which is the technical endpoint of the game.

[Huinesoron]

First up, an apology: I messed up with 'plant-based'; I forgot that clothes in LotR are more likely to be wool than cotton. Either animal-based or metal would have been a better choice to rule out.

Okay. Where do you wear things? Your head (ruled out), your hands, your feet, your legs, your torso, or as an accessory.

Hands: either a ring or a glove. Almost all rings are ruled out because we know exactly who made them, or because they're around in the First Age. I can't think of anyone wearing gloves.

Feet: does anyone have noteworthy shoes or boots? It can't be a dwarf, because they presumably wouldn't fit Eowyn. Tom wears big boots to confront a troll, and Tom Bombadil has yellow boots that Eowyn could probably get her feet into.

Legs: I... don't think there's any significant trousers? Tolkien doesn't really go much in for clothing descriptions outside the Hobbits, and we know it's not theirs. (Though, hmm... 'Hobbit thing' is ambiguous; does that imply that it was owned but not made by a Hobbit?)

Torso: armour is a possible, and is going to be a nightmare - about the only one we can rule out is the Mithril vest! If not armour, we're looking at some sort of leather jerkin or wool top (but not Bilbo's weskit). Perhaps a costume someone disguises themselves in, though the only one I can think of is Frodo's Orc-armour. (Is Gollum's loin-cloth from the book?

Accessory: a cloak springs to mind. I don't think we know what the Lorien cloaks are made of, and they could have been made by Feanor. Or we could be looking for an item of jewellery, like a brooch or necklace (without a prominent jewel). Bombadil pulls a brooch out of a barrow, Pippin drops one in Rohan, and the Rangers of the North wear a silver star. Necklace... there's the Necklace of Girion, which has jewels in it but isn't one. And I suppose there's the chain the Ring hung on. (Would Pearl Took's pearl necklace count as a jewel?)

Or how about backpacks? Most of the Fellowship have them, and they could be either wool or something like canvas. Something like 'Sam's pack' might be unique enough to be a 20 Questions answer (though that one would be a Hobbit Thing).

And belts, as well... Boromir's is the only one that jumps to mind, though others are mentioned (Balin has one when he comes to visit Bilbo).

There... really doesn't seem to be an easy way to narrow this down.

hS

[Urwen]

Actuallz, those could be Narya/Nenya/Vilya, as none of them were made by Feanor.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That isn't made of wood? We gotta be careful with the next question, we have only 1 guess left before we reach 20 which is the technical endpoint of the game.

There are shields made of metal too.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Actuallz, those could be Narya/Nenya/Vilya, as none of them were made by Feanor.

It definitely couldn't be those three, because they have Elvish names (see question 3).

I don't think it can be any of the other Great Rings, because Mithalwen responded to the Feanor question with 'neither known to be or likely to be'. We know exactly who made the Great Rings (and Saruman's ring for that matter), so they wouldn't just be 'not likely' - they definitely weren't made by Feanor! The only other notable ring I can think of is Barahir's, which could be Feanor's work - but was extant in the First Age (see question 5).

Originally Posted by Urwen

There are shields made of metal too.

I didn't look at shields because I didn't consider them as 'worn', but they kind of are, aren't they? Gil-Galad notably has a silver one, but that's not attested in the Third Age. Other than that...

... well, there's a fair few people noted as having shields, but how many do we know for sure they're not wooden? There are 22 instances of 'shield' in The Hobbit, for instance, and aside from the numerous 'Oakenshield's, none of them specify a material. So would Mith firmly state that it's not wooden if we didn't know for sure?

hS

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I was busy and a bit confused by an armour. Also really 2 guesses which ain’t in the spirit of things . So will answer the first question in light of the clarification.
If you don’t get in under 20 do yo want to carry on to decide the next setter or be told?

[Mithalwen]

Alive? No
Place? No
Has a name in a language created by Tolkien? No
Object? Yes
First Age? No
Man-made? Yes
Third age? Yes
A sword? No.
Could it be picked up by Aragorn? Yes
Is it a hobbit thing? Again an ambiguous question but no.
Made by Feanor? No, well neither known to be or likely to be.
Made of wood? No
A Jewel? No
A standard? No
Made from material of plant origin? No
Could Eowyn wear it? Yes
A helmet? No
Would Eowyn wear it on her head? No.
Would it cover all /most of Eowyn’s body? No.

I think it would be perfectly possible to have got this in 20 with a bit more narrowing down early on but I guess it is easy if you know the answer.

[Galadriel55]

Re: Shield
Though shields probably had some metal component to them, I doubt they were made solely of metal. More likely to be wood with metal plating. Just imagine carrying around a solid block of metal that size.

Re: Accessories
I don't know if I'm interpreting the "hobbit thing" too broadly, but a bunch of stuff is out because it was worn by hobbits (though not made by them) - Ring chain, Lorien brooches.

Re: Clothes materials
Plant based materials might still be used - linen and such. Don't know what silk counts as, hough probably not plant. But I believe for most clothes we don't have enough info to conclusively say it's not plant material either - unless wool or leather are specified.


Yes, we probably could have gotten it in 20 if we were wiser with the questions. But here we are, going past the limit.

Given the speculations in Huey's post, I think it's time to ask what should have been asked way earlier before we got sidetracked into clothing material:

Is it a piece of jewelry?

[Mithalwen]

I wasn’t intending to disparage just to state that it is not something really mean. It isn’t something from a HoME footnote. Since a further question has been asked. I’ll take the moral victory and let you guess on to decide who sets next.

You have been closer than you realise. A couple of things made me gasp so I was glad to be across the ether. Please note that I mentioned that a couple of questions were ambiguous but then gave unqualified answers.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Mithalwen;720458]Alive? No
Place? No
Has a name in a language created by Tolkien? No
Object? Yes
First Age? No
Man-made? Yes
Third age? Yes
A sword? No.
Could it be picked up by Aragorn? Yes
Is it a hobbit thing? Again an ambiguous question but no.
Made by Feanor? No, well neither known to be or likely to be.
Made of wood? No
A Jewel? No
A standard? No
Made from material of plant origin? No
Could Eowyn wear it? Yes
A helmet? No
Would Eowyn wear it on her head? No.
Would it cover all /most of Eowyn’s body? No.
A piece of jewellery?No

And since someone else has had a turn I will now answer Urwen’s next question as best I can.

Armour? Yes

[Urwen]

There are only two named armors left, and there is only one question left, so I will nab Huey's reasoning, to hell with consequences, and say Mithril shirt.

[Mithalwen]

1 Alive? No
2 Place? No
3 Has a name in a language created by Tolkien? No
4 Object? Yes
5 First Age? No
6 Man-made? Yes
7 Third age? Yes
8 A sword? No.
9 Could it be picked up by Aragorn? Yes
10 Is it a hobbit thing? Again an ambiguous question but no.
11 Made by Feanor? No, well neither known to be or likely to be.
12 Made of wood? No
13 A Jewel? No
14 A standard? No
15 Made from material of plant origin? No
16 Could Eowyn wear it? Yes
17 A helmet? No
18 Would Eowyn wear it on her head? No.
19 Would it cover all /most of Eowyn’s body? No.
20 A piece of jewellery?No
21 Armour? Yes
22 Mithril shirt? no

[Urwen]

Then I guess it's over.

[Urwen]

Dwarf mail?


If it's not one, it has to be the other.

[Mithalwen]

Dwarf mail No.

[Urwen]

But those two are only known armors that aren't worn on the head, at least according to TG.....


(Mind if I take over, since this round already bypassed 20 questions?)

[Huinesoron]

Okay; so here's everything described as 'armour', 'plate', 'corslet', 'hauberk', or 'mail', that could reasonably be the answer (so not 'the armour the goblins wore in Goblin Town):

From The Hobbit
-Mithril vest (explicitly no)
-Thorin's armour of gold-plated rings, which was rent when he was killed (probably too small & confirmed not Feanor's work)
-Dwarf-mail as worn by Dain's folk ('a hauberk of steel mail that hung to his knees', so might fit Eowyn, but I think confirmed dwarf-make).
--No obvious candidates here.

From Fellowship
-Earendil's armour of 'chained rings', from Bilbo's poem. (Either First Age, or invented by Bilbo and therefore a Hobbit thing)
-Aragorn's elven-mail, seen by Frodo in Rivendell. (May not have actually existed; the text is unclear.)
-The Orc-chieftain's 'black mail from head to foot' in Moria. (Given that he was 'almost man-high', this would have covered most of Eowyn's body.)
-The grey mail of the guards of Lorien. (Entirely possible.)
--The two Elvish mail sets are possible, but seem a bit obscure.

From Two Towers
-The 'shining mail' given to Aragorn and Legolas by the Rohirrim. (Perfectly plausible; Aragorn's is mentioned later as 'the armour of Rohan', and ultimately they come from Gondor, so could potentially but not likely be Feanor's work.)
-Gimli's 'short corslet' (explicitly made by dwarves).
-The 'corslet of overlapping brazen plates' worn by the slain Easterling. (Also plausible.)
-Eowyn's silver mail. (I mean... yeah.)
-The missing hauberk from the lament for Eorl. (I'm gonna go with no.)
--A few options, but none that spring out as being notable.

From Return of the King
-Merry's 'stout jerkin of leather' from Eowyn. Taken from the Rohirric camp, it could presumably be worn by Eowyn (but is a 'Hobbit thing').
-Pippin's Gondorian armour (was made for him, and would not fit Eowyn).
-'armour of the Citadel'; general Gondorian armour. (Is this specific enough, though?)
-Forlong's mail. (Could work.)
-The 'bright mail' of the sons of Elrond. (Possible.)
-The gilded hauberk of Prince Baldor of Rohan, lying with his bones in the Paths of the Dead. (Very possible.)
-Hirgon's 'fine mail'. (Possible.)
-Denethor's mail, which he wore all the time. (Possible.)
-Prince Imrahil's 'shining mail'. (Again, possible.)
-Frodo's 'stout ring-mail' of his Orc disguise, noted as being too big for him, so a possible fit for Eowyn. (But a Hobbit thing.)
-A 'coat of gilded mail' given to Sam. (Also Hobbitish.)
-Aragorn's 'black mail' from his return to Minas Tirith. (Possible.)
-The Witch-King's hauberk. (Entirely possible.)
--Quite a few possibilities here.

From the Appendices
-The mail-collar of Nain, which didn't save him from being killed by Azog. (Presumably dwarf-make.)
--Probably not then.

Going through all that, I think there's 13 plausible answers:

-Three sets of Aragorn's mail.
-An Orc in Moria.
-Easterling.
-Eowyn's mail.
-Armour of the Citadel.
-Forlong.
-Baldor
-Hirgon
-Denethor
-Imrahil
-Witch-King

Six of them were used during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, which might be a way to narrow things down. Equally, seven were worn by people who were killed while wearing them (assuming the Witch-King counts as being 'killed'); eight if you include the fact that Guards of the Citadel certainly died in battle. All of them are mail except the Easterling's scale-mail; I didn't realise that Tolkien didn't include plate armour!

Five of them are not silver in colour (assuming the Witch-King wasn't prancing about in shiny mail). Only three are worn by evil characters (assuming we exclude Denethor and Baldor from that!). Seven were worn by royals (ie, Aragornx3, Baldor, Eowyn, Imrahil, and the Witch-King). I dunno, there's lots of options.

I think the time-fix is going to be the most useful, so I would like to ask:

Was it worn at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields?

hS

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

(Mind if I take over, since this round already bypassed 20 questions?)

Never surrender!

hS

[Urwen]

None of those are named, though?

[Urwen]

Also, wanna take over 6 degrees, Huey?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

None of those are named, though?

I haven't seen Mith indicate that it needs to be, just that it's not super obscure. We know it doesn't have an Elvish name, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, wanna take over 6 degrees, Huey?

Nope, go for it.

hS

[Urwen]

I already had a turn there, and I don't want to have 2 turns in a row.

[Mithalwen]

Worn at Battle of Pelennor fields? Yes.

[Urwen]

Worn by a commander?

[Huinesoron]

Current list:

Commanders:
-Aragorn's mail from Rohan.
-Forlong's mail
-Imrahil's armour
-Witch-King's mail
[-Denethor's armour]

Non-commanders:
-Eowyn's mail.
-Armour of the Citadel.

+anything anyone else thinks of; I'm not so arrogant as to think this is a comprehensive list.

Given Mith's 'gasp' reaction, if it's not a commander I think it might well be Eowyn's armour (since there was no obvious reason to name her, so it would have been a lucky shot in the dark).

hS

[Urwen]

If you do get it, could you set something easier (ie. named) as an answer, Huey?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If you do get it, could you set something easier (ie. named) as an answer, Huey?

Named, yes - but no promises on 'easier'.

While we're talking about the future, can I get a rules clarification?

a Person, a place, an event or an item of ME

-Could the answer be a group of people?
-How about a language?
-Or a concept like 'the Unseen'?
-Does the answer have to be from Middle-earth itself, or just from the Legendarium as a whole?
-What about older versions of the Legendarium?
-How about non-Legendarium Tolkien (eg, the Father Christmas Letters)?

hS

[Urwen]

You do realize you're giving away just what kind of questions we'd need to ask in the future?