TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)

You are creepy. Full stop.

Evil scheming wolf.

[Thinlómien]

Sally and Huinesoron

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)

It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Sally and Huinesoron

My reaction exactly!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

Ah, sorry. One of the many gaps in my education.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

She’s my cousin

[Galadriel55]

The outlaws knew that this was their last chance to rid themselves of Sauron’s last shapeshifter. Either they would find it among their midst, or they will not live to see the next Day. It was a blessing that Gorlim appeared to them at dawn. He whispered in Ghostlotte’s voice of the innocence of Pitch and Soriman, but counseled the Living that their fallen brothers can only help them so much. True men, worthy men, must write their own destinies.

Lommy and Morsul stood face to face, as realization dawned upon them. Morsul drew his sword first, and Lommy followed swiftly after. (Some have felt a vibration through the air, as if some dead eyebrows just twitched). But they both knew that neither would be able to defeat the other alone, they would need aid from the other outlaws. Soriman lifted his sword and stood behind Lommy, but Pitch moved towards Morsul. “Ghostlotte speaks truly. We must all decide for ourselves, and my heart tells me that Morsul is innocent.”

“But this makes our strength even,” Lommy said. “We should leave it up to the dead to decide which of us two is to meet his forefathers today.”

(A keen person may have caught some words on the wind.
NO.
NO THEY DIDN’T.
Can they not make your own choices? We don’t want to decide the game.
The wind died.)

“Really really good disguise, Sauron’s puppet whichever body you may possess!” were the shouts coming from both sides.

“What a good idea, to leave it to the justice of our fallen. I bet they are having a blast!” said Morsul. “I bet they even have Oreos!”

“They have Beren and Barahir to guide them in their judgement,” Pitch added.

(The heather rustled.
WE ARE NOT HAVING A BLAST.
AND WE DO NOT HAVE OREOS.
AND BEREN’S SPIRIT IS WITH THEM, USING GORLIM’S SHAPE.
Then silence fell.)

“Why does Gorlim not say anything more?” asked Lommy. “The Dead should really give us more information, why are they being so obstinately unwilling to help us in this decision?”

(The water in the lake rippled.
We’ve cleared the names of two of the four survivors. Those living have to do something for themselves.
Do they not realize that even in death, the world is not pure? We have evil spirits among us, who would darken our thoughts and beguile our senses and warp our meager words to you!
The Living are infuriating. They should both die.
They should all die. They’ve just abdicated responsibility for their fate to a bunch of corpses. I don’t know that anyone deserves to survive this.
And it was still again.)

There was a long silence, as the four survivors looked at each other.

(A pine needle fell.
Do they really deserve to be judged so harshly? Can they not trust us, even when death proved us clean?
But how, when we cannot trust ourselves?
A pine cone rolled.)

“Well, it’s out of our hands now,” said Lommy, “I kind of enjoy it.”

(The earth trembled.
Well that does it. She’s in for it. I am getting hungry, and I am voting now, and just for this alone it deserves to be her!
Well, if it was me in their place, she is the one with the innocent behaviour.
Enough! Let us subject them to the trial of the Deadline Chicken!
There was a distant sound of thunder.)

Suddenly, both Morsul and Lommy stepped back, as a humongous chicken fell out of the sky and started thrashing about. It sent feathers flying into everyone’s eyes, and was cawing so loud it made ears pop. Soriman tried to catch the chicken, but it flailed too much and slid out of his grasp. As it regained footing, its eye turned on Pitch, and it immediately tried to peck his eyes out. Pitch barely escaped the vicious animal but tripped over a tree root as he was scrambling back. Morsul reached to help him up, but he underestimated the chicken. The animal was rabid and beyond all reason. As its evil eye landed on Morsul, it clawed at him and pecked his head. Morsul tried to defend himself, but to no avail - his arms were no match for the bird. Eventually, his arms went limp.

But at that moment the world itself seemed to have bokeh asunder. What must have been a hundred chickens fell out of the sky. And with them came the shades of the fallen, all the outlaws that once have sought refuge on the shores of Tarn Aeluin.

When the chickens were cleared and the feathers and the dust settled, the living could see clearly: Morsul’s form lay dead in its human shape. And Lommy too seemed human, very very human.

Everybody looked around in confusion.

“What, you thought I would be the werewolf?” asked Lommy. “Well… I guess you’re right!” Within a moment she was no longer the outlaw that they knew, but a vicious beast. She charged - first at Soriman, who did not raise his sword in time to defend himself, then at Pitch, who fell backwards (again!) over the same tree root. His last cry of “I told you so!” was lost amid the din of the Ghosts.

Having feasted on the prey and the chickens, Lommy licked her chops. She then changed her shape again, turning into a bat, and flew off into the twilight to report her success to the Dark Lord Sauron.







The Living
Lommy - The One True Werewolf

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)
Kath (Night 4 - Seer)
Legate (Day 4 - Wolf)
Boro (Night 5 - Ordo)
Morsul (Day 5 - Ordo)
Pitch & Soriman - killed in endgame


WOLVES WIN.


Everyone is now welcome to read the Dead Thread. For those who think it's too long, I would argue that it lacks the Wall of Text posts of the Living, and is generally a highly entertaining read.

[Boromir88]

Goodnight Greenie!

I'll take the plunge too and go for the person who I think is acting more suspiciously...wild card...I might disagree with it...holding something back...but didn't want to explain why.

++...

Hey I'm quite proud of the D&D campaign I joined where for my Goliath character I picked up the "disarm" ability because I thought you know getting an enemy to drop a weapon would be quite useful to have...only to find out the factions our group is up against are werewolves and vampires. So I successfully convinced the DM my character was strong enough to disarm vampires...as in literally just rip their arms off. But then vampires can still bite you, so the DM had his vampires go Black Knight to hop on over and attempt to bite me.

--GhostOmir88

Edit: Crossed with the Mod. hehe epic narration. Well, I had your back Morsul. Sadly, the dead outnumbered me.

Well done Lommy and Wolves! Players of the game for me are the 3 ghosts. We would have been stumbling around in total darkness without you. You really saved us and gave us a chance.

[satansaloser2005]

VICTORY! CHEERS, MY SESTRA AND BROTHER SESTRA.

I'm so happy right now.

[Loslote]

What a game!!! Congratulations, wolves, that was a hard-fought battle. It really could have gone either way, but Lommy, you did an incredible job all game long. Well deserved win!

[Soriman the Whide]

Very well played, sorry Pitch & Morsul.

[Thinlómien]

AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO








YAY

INCREDIBLE


ASDFGHJKLKJHGFDSDFGHJKL

KJHGF







SORRY NO BRAIN





I LOVE YOU all just so you know

[Huinesoron]

Congratulations wolves! Excellently played, right down to the wire.

G55 - I was doubled over with my hand over my mouth through the entire Epilogue, trying desperately not to wake the house after midnight with fits of laughter. Very good work.

Actual comments in the morning, goodnight you bunch of crazy types.

hS

[Kath]

Ahaha congrats Lommy! A very well deserved win. Should've trusted my gut back on Night 2 when I nearly dreamt you instead of sally but I seemed determined to only dream of innocents.

Right, I have to go to bed, and should have done long ago. But thank you everybody for such a fun game. Quote Bilbo and excellent and admirable hobbits and too short a time and all that.

G55 and BG thanks for modding. The Ghost role was fab and I have loved being part of the Dead Thread too.

Until next time!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Of Túrin Turambar

Then at last Turin knew that doom had overtaken him, and that he had slain Brandir unjustly; so that the words of Glaurung were fulfilled in him. And he laughed as one fey, crying: 'This is a bitter jest indeed!' But he bade Mablung go, and return to Doriath, with curses upon it.

'And a curse too upon your errand!' he cried. This only was wanting. Now comes the night.'

Originally Posted by The Pyre of Denethor

But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.

Ghost

[Thinlómien]

You have no idea how happy I am right now

I was so so sure we would lose

like you have no idea

what kind of pits of demotivation I was in for the last two Nights

only to psych myself up to face the Days and finding things unfolding in a manner I could never ever have foreseen

amazing



also *sending kisses to Sally and Legate* WE DID IT

[Morsul the Dark]

I don’t care what the narration says a cowboy only goes out one way

[Pitchwife]

WOW


Lommy, that was --- incredible. A well deserved win! *bows*


And I need to get up in 5 hours. See you all tomorrow!

[Morsul the Dark]

Well done Lommy Et al

[Thinlómien]

Yes, thank you everyone xoxo and especially our moddesses, for the ride!

It was a great game. I think both sides did pretty epic things.

I'm off to bed too, but I'll certainly read the dead thread and participate in the post game discussion tomorrow.

Just for the record, I was like 90% telling the truth about everything toDay. I feel like the feelings of despair and hysteria can easily be shared between the wolves and the innocents.

And whoever said I was trying to save Sally while not looking like I'm doing it can pat themselves on the back, because you were right. Also Soriman for saying I voted Legate to look better on Day5. (More about that tomorrow. Day4 was crazy. I didn't want to bus Legate, but let's say I considered my options and decided that taking the chance that he would get lynched instead of Pitch was better than putting all our eggs in one basket. I think it was, dare I say, a coin toss whether it would work or not.)


PS. I think Pitch owes me an Oscar (per what he said on Day2) and I owe Morsul an apology. (Also I was very impressed by you in this game in general, including setting the scene for getting Sally lynched on Day3!) Very very sorry but after Pitch being revealed a known innocent, I had no other options.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Very very sorry but after Pitch being revealed a known innocent, I had no other options.

Right back at you. We both only had one option. If nothing else we made dead work for it

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

VICTORY! CHEERS, MY SESTRA AND BROTHER SESTRA.

I'm so happy right now.

Cheers, sestra! This was an absolute joy, and an absolutely unexpected and totally insanely epic finale.

All the quotes that occur to me are, sadly, from the wrong fandom.

"A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one."

"You have done that yourself."

(And the latter can actually be applied both to Lommy and to the Innocents.)

***

Seriously - I would not even know where to start - this was a great game on so many levels for so many different reasons. The Ghosts, like I said already a million times, were amazing. Form, Hui, Lottie - your quotes were great and it was a joy to read them even as a Wolf (and even when I was able to decipher only half of them as well as I would like and definitely half as much as they deserved).

My packmates: sally - you held on even under heavy fire AND went away with such a blast, that was amazing. I wanted to say "outing the Seer may have won us the game", but the thing is - this whole game was just a series of these situations that won us the game.

In any case, one thing I need to remark on - you are the first and only person I can claim to have been Wolves with twice in a row and won both times. So, we're officially epic eternal packmates, Sestra Wolfcake.

And Lommy - well your whole performance especially both the Day you voted me and even more now when you were on your own - that was exactly just what I said, a string of situations that won us the game.

I must say I did not believe that we would win, especially given the odds in the final Days (with the info-drops, plus the Dead having the power to decide a tied vote). But I did not believe my eyes when I saw toDay unfold. Lommy certainly managed to convince the Living AND Dead!

I probably have something to say to each of you, but I will try to do so once I have slept, and via reps, if that fits.

Last but not least, amazing narrations, both BG and G55, and thanks for great modding! This was also a great experiment with the Ghost role and now that we have seen it in practice, it can be used in the future and now we have an idea how to balance the environment to support it.

Will be back to respond or say more in the morning... just now... it is two hours past my bedtime.

So thanks all! It was a great game, and one to remember (said he whose memory has been proven to be rather imperfect this game! )

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well done Lommy Et al

If you ask me, you were quite a MVP in this one. I was convinced at multiple instances throughout the game that you were going to win the Innocents the game. It was this close.

[Galadriel55]

Great game everyone! I have to say I enjoyed modding this game tremendously, even though it took up way more time than I meant to commit to this game. You were all amazing! I was keeping tabs on what I thought were some highlights of the game. I will post that at some point, maybe tomorrow. But for now, may I present, in recognition of your performance and achievements this game - THE WEREWOLF AWARDS!

Soriman: 95% Innocent
Boro: Ghostbuster
Formendacil: Saucepan's Lawmaker
Greenie: Fenris Ordo
Huinesoron: Lynched For All The Wrong Reasons
Morsul: The Phantom (with glitches)
Pitch: Honourary Cobbler
Kath: Serious Calf
Lottie: Not The Seer
Sally: Seer By Multiple Requests
Legate: Most Suspicious Squeaky Clean Player
Lommy: Deliberately Confused


And a very special thank you to my co-mod, who wrote most of the narrations and was instrumental in making the DL+6 infodrops happen. BeiGei, your narrations were wonderful and a pleasure to read. You were a great co-mod, and I really enjoyed our doing this together!

[Blind Guardian]

Great game guys! Good job with that win Lommy! Although I was rooting for the village... I swear! It's so hard writing your deaths when I love you all so much. I don't want to see you die!!

I loved the Deadline Chicken and enjoyed co modding with you G55! I'm sorry I wasn't really here the last few days. We've been having all kinds of trouble with the RV.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by The Last Stage

In short Bilbo was "Presumed Dead", and not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong.

A Little Ghost

[A Little Green]

Beautiful job, wolves. But the innocents put up a good fight, too - lynching two wolves in a row was impressive. Kudos also to Form, Huin and Lottie for brilliant Ghost performances!

That last Day in the Dead Thread was particularly insane, my favourite moments including

- Morsul in the Living Thread: The Dead must be having a blast
Every non-wolf in the Dead Thread: NO WE ARE NOT
- The anticipated game of Deadline Chicken
- The suggestion that we be allowed to double-lynch Morsul and Lommy (I still think that would have been a great ending )
- The suggestion that we just vote for Pitch instead (we might as well have).

Sally, I'm still waiting for those speech-to-text wolf hints you promised.

Seriously though, village, this should teach you never to force dead people to make your decisions for you.

[A Little Green]

I remember saying, already on Day 2 or something, that one of Sally and Pitch is a wolf, AND one of Lommy and Pitch is a wolf. Note to self: next time you say something like this, when Pitch is proven innocent and Sally is proven wolf, the next logical step is to LYNCH LOMMY.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Huinesoron: Lynched For All The Wrong Reasons

Story of my lives.

Looking back, I'm really impressed with all the wolves - Legate who I never suspected, Lommy who always managed to be so believable that I rejected whatever doubts I had - but most especially Sally. I know you were first to die, but before that happened, you:

• Night-killed someone who could only point directly at you, and yet somehow didn't get lynched the following day. There wasn't even that much discussion of how bad it made you look!
• Drew out the Seer for your fuzzy fellows to tear apart.
• Deprived us of almost any information from the votes! Not voting Day One meant there was no way to track your fellows, and on Day Three you managed to draw I think every single vote onto yourself, meaning the other wolves blended seamlessly into the crowd.

It was a spectacular showing. Bravo.

I also want to call out Boro for spot-on interpretations of the Ghost's meanderings - and for having a name which was really easy to direct replies to. Faced with the possibility of needing to clue Kath via the Cats of Queen Beruthiel, and Lommy with Dor-lomin, you were a breath of fresh air.

(I did have Salgant for Sally, which I was quite pleased with, but overall am glad I never needed to employ.)

~

Looking at the game itself... both mods did a wonderful job, and it was good fun having you haunting the DeadThread. There was some confusion over the voting rules; I think someone at one point described the dead as having 1.5 votes, which is probably the best way to put it in future! But once understood, the rules worked very well.

The infodrops were well-tuned; it was fun running through all the consequences of them. Out of interest, what were the possible infodrops that the Wolves rejected?

The Ghost was heaps of fun, but maybe too powerful. We came within a handspan of a final day with three Confirmed Innocents and the ability to easily convey them, which really shouldn't happen. A couple suggestions:

1/ The idea of allowing each quote to only be used once per game sounds like a good way of limiting the Ghost. It means that if you find a perfect line (such as the one with innocent in quote marks), you have to weigh up using it now versus saving it for a maybe Seer reveal later.

2/ Rather than limiting the Ghost to a given number of appearances - we basically sent it in every chance we got here! - how about 'may not be used on consecutive days'? That works for both long and short games, and gives a play-off of "we know a lot now, but what if the Seer gets killed...?'

hS

[Galadriel55]

As promised yesterday, I will post the anthology of some of my favourite moments of the game. I think the Day 5 DT in its entirety deserves to be here, but rather than copy everything over I will merely direct those interested to page 6 of the DT. And now, a few moments that I really enjoyed with the omniscience of a mod.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife @Day 1

So, could it be Lottie, Kath and X?

I mean, the vibe sensor is brilliant, it's just colourblind.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife @Day 2

To which I'd add "X doesn't suspect me, does that mean they're an innocent who has a good read on me or a wolf trying to buddy up to me? I don't really suspect them either, does that mean I should? If I don't suspect them, is it just because they don't suspect me? But I'm actually innocent, so if they don't suspect me that's OK, isn't it?"

Which is a perfect parody of Day Ones. Both posts make me chuckle.

Originally Posted by Formendacil @Day 2

I agree with your last post: while it looks good, surely it's too easy. I feel like there should be a Law about situations like this--Saucepan's Law or something: if it sees to have been uncovered too easily, it's either completely true or it's totally, horrifically wrong.

SaucepanWolf was before my time, but I wholeheartedly agree that this should be some Law of Too Easy To Be Possible.

Originally Posted by Lommy @Day 3

Not a fan of Morsul's plans, for reasons that I don't feel confident expressing in public.

Part of me wondered if the reason you could not express it in public was because the Downs would censor all of the batexcrement and bovine feces?

Originally Posted by Formendacil @Night 4

Guiding the Living is like herding cats, so that's a bonus not the meat of the matter.

^.^

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005 @Night 4

I think the serious calf.

Go read the DT for context. ^.^

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc @Day 4

You tried getting night killed? When?

Legwolf: Wait, we were supposed to kill you?

Originally Posted by Soriman the Whide

I'm being trolled by a ghost help!

This was amazing, and Lottie - I love you for putting an actual troll post in there!


Day 2 almost turned into a Gifted vs Wolf wagon race, before the village got distracted by the [then mostly absent] Hui.
Day 3 - when I read Morsul's first couple posts, calling for the village to do as he says or else, my thought was that we clearly have more than one Ghost haunting as he is clearly being possessed by The Phantom! In the meantime, Boro was absolutely on point with the Ghost interpretations, he and Form were on the same brainwave. I even thought this Ghost set up is just too easy. But then Legate and Lommy added on some alternative interpretations and questioned meaning, and Pitch brought some absolutely innocent confusion to the mix, and it was balanced again.
And Day 4 - Lommy I still do not get it but you pulled it off so you get all the bragging rights.


It was a pleasure to mod with you guys. This was a very fun game to mod - though I did spend quite a bit more time doing this than I expected, I may as well have played for the amount of studying that got done while this went on. *facepalm*

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Ghost was heaps of fun, but maybe too powerful. We came within a handspan of a final day with three Confirmed Innocents and the ability to easily convey them, which really shouldn't happen. A couple suggestions:

1/ The idea of allowing each quote to only be used once per game sounds like a good way of limiting the Ghost. It means that if you find a perfect line (such as the one with innocent in quote marks), you have to weigh up using it now versus saving it for a maybe Seer reveal later.

2/ Rather than limiting the Ghost to a given number of appearances - we basically sent it in every chance we got here! - how about 'may not be used on consecutive days'? That works for both long and short games, and gives a play-off of "we know a lot now, but what if the Seer gets killed...?'

Another possible limitation is if the Ghost could only quote from one text (per Day? per Game?). e.g. Form would only quote from ROTK, Hui would only quote from TH, Lottie would only do The Sil, etc. And I agree about an every-other-Day restriction, I think that can also curb the amount of information flowing backwards to the Living.

Someone asked about infodrops. The first two were fun to write, and BG and I had a plethora to choose from. The third one was more difficult, as generic statements about the game became increasingly narrow. I almost resorted to either/both logic statements to get around that (e.g. either both Kath and Lommy are ordos or Pitch and Boro are not both wolves, but not both). Thankfully there were sufficient normal phrases to avoid that. What ended up going to Sally was:

There was at least one wolf among those who voted for Hui on D2.
At least one wolf did not receive any votes yet.
Both remaining wolves voted for Hui at some point in the game.

I was surprised that she went for #3, which in my opinion gave the most definitive info. But I was not privy to the pack's plans and opinions, so maybe it made more sense from their perspective.

For the final infodrop, the DT knew everyone's alignment except for Morsul and Lommy. And because BG and I didn't think it fair to reveal the roles so openly, we gave the wolves a statement that could apply to either person and opened it up to their suggestions. Evidently no better thoughts have occurred, as that one statement was still the only one on the drawing board by posting time. I was not supposed to be awake at the DL+6 time, but I could not help it, every time I tried to sleep I would keep thinking that I miscounted the votes, or misphrased the sentence, and it would implicate one of the survivors, and I would have to get up and check to make sure it was still good.

For the future, I would probably make it an implied rule that infodrops will not contain new information that would instantly take the game out of everyone's hands. If it wasn't for the Ghost, it might have been possible to reveal LomWolf and leave it up to the voting to determine the balance. But with a Ghost who can just declare everyone's roles unchallenged, it seemed too unfair.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

G55, since you started about this - if we are talking infordrops, I actually think they are, by themselves, the most dangerous part of the game that can easily get out of hand.

Let me start with the Ghost though - I believe it works fine the way it is and this gameplay has proved it, I think. I would however not be opposed to limiting the quotes in some way like it was suggested simply in order to keep them fresh. It might become repetitive once we have discovered the best universal quote for saying X, and the creativity of the process - which I think should be the main reason for the Ghost to exist - would go out of the window.

But I also acknowledge that the idea to have the Ghost appear only every second day is actually pretty ingenious as limitation. Of all things, that sounds good (and if it is not as good for the village, that could be balanced somewhere else, like by what Gifteds there are etc.). Because having the Ghost appear three times, on an average game, anyway essentially means "every Day". Because:

-Ghost obviously won't appear on Day 1
-and on Day 2 it very likely won't have much information to add anyway
-which means that in most games, it would start appearing from Day 3 onwards. And most games hardly last past something like Day 6. So with three visits, the Ghost could appear nearly every Day.

***

My main problem however is with something else, and like I said, it is the infodrops. In retrospect, I think - despite the fact that the Wolves won - that the rules were strongly on the side of the village (I acknowledge I did not give the rules enough thought beforehand to imagine how it would look in practice; I probably would have said something had I realised it). But:

-while 3 Wolves in a village of 12 was certainly considerably imbalanced in favour of the WWs, and even with 2 Gifteds and the ability of the Dead to vote (which can be ambivalent, as we have seen) the village would still have been at a disadvantage,
-the Ghost returning essentially meant +1 dream conveyed for the Seer even after the Seer had died - that is a big bonus; though even that is arguably not necessarily balancing it (and for example in this game, we Wolves were lucky that the Seer dreamed quite a lot about people who died quickly after - though I guess that also had a lot to do with the numbers, in bigger village this would be less likely to happen.)
-but what in my opinion already went over was the ability of the Dead to decide a tie - I think the Dead's vote should have been counted simply as it was, as the last one cast, and the tie would be broken by whichever vote came first in the Living thread. This would btw also limit the dumping of responsibility on the Dead - while it was entertaining and somehow fitting, I still think it should generally be discouraged, and this would be part of it.
-and finally, what definitely went over, even if we argued that the former didn't, were the infodrops and I think they are problematic for multiple reasons.

Firstly, it puts a terrible pressure on the Mod, and somebody could still theoretically reveal too much to the Dead even by accident.
Secondly and more specifically, it works a bit like a sudoku in the sense that as you go, you crosscheck more and more information. By way of elimination your knowledge rises exponentially, and the longer the game runs, the less space for error there is. You eventually arrive at a point where the next info you'd reveal would simply say "X is a Wolf". We in fact ran exactly into that problem already in our game on, what was it, Night 4? I cannot belive one could possibly run a game that would last, say, six Days. Even with a large village, because information like "at least some Wolves voted in bandwagon for Greenie" may cut away like half of the village.
And thirdly, even the best Mod with the most careful plan not to reveal too much cannot control how the game develops. If you reveal that there is one Wolf among Legate, Morsul and Lottie, and then Lottie is lynched and Morsul Nightkilled, you just gave the village bulletproof info.

(Feel free to disagree)

***

In any case, even if we say that this system is unfair, it obviously poses the question what to do about it. I do not have an answer ready for that. Discarding the whole idea would eliminate 75% of the reason for the Ghost's existence in the first place. I don't want that. One possibility would be for example to limit how often the Ghosts get the infodrops (like also every second Day, or somesuch, starting perhaps with N2 so the first dead person has something to pass time thinking about). But I am not sure whether it is enough, or whether it doesn't have other problems (like making the odd Days uninteresting for the Dead).

The ideal solution of course would be to use the infodrop only in a game where roles of dead people don't get revealed upon death (however I loathe such games). There, either the Dead could get info about everything (ie about both living and dead) in this "sudoku" form and then send it back, or else the Dead could simply just receive the knowledge of everyone's roles after they died - so the roles would not be revealed in the Living thread narration, but in some Dead thread narration - and then they would have to just decide when to send it back. But the second option at least is perhaps somewhat boring and would make the content of what the Ghost is going to say fairly monotonous.

But that would disqualify the use of the Dead in "normal" games, and wasn't the idea to have the Dead in every game?

Anyway, these are my thoughts on future use of these rules. I think this game gave us a lot of input and I am hoping that we can discuss this before some next game where it could be implemented. To be sure however, let me say that despite the fact that I believe this was slightly tilted in the village's favour, the Mods handled it exceptionally, both by providing fairly balanced infodrops and also by modifying the rules ad hoc when it became clear that this would no longer work - I think that kind of common-sense flexibility is important, and it is good if the players can agree on that too, if some rule is discovered mid-game to be "broken" in some way.

***

TL; DR: I don't believe that the Ghost was too powerful; it was the infodrops that were too powerful. We should do something about those while making sure that the Ghost still has something to say. And I would also not have the Dead have a tiebreaking vote, also in order to further motivate the Living to make important decisions for themselves.

[Formendacil]

I agree with Legate's basic premise: that the infodrops are the main source of potential imbalance. I think G55 did great with figuring them out as the game went along, and I think the hardest thing to provide feedback on here would be HOW to find that sweet spot of "some, not too much" info.

I think a Ghost with no info (or only whatever info the Dead may possess--say via the Seer) wouldn't be completely useless if, say, the Ghost had a vote--as distinct from the Dead or perhaps in place of the Dead. That would make for an overall weaker Dead thread, but that's not NECESSARILY a bad thing.

I do still think there should be some limitations on the reuse of quotes--Legate used the word "stale" and I agree strongly. I also think that being limited to only a single quote in the game helps "Phantom-proof" it a little.

(Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)

[Morsul the Dark]

Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)

You mean like me screaming you had a seer?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Sorimon I just looked at the admin thread G55 clarifies Kath had one more dream. Vote Lommy let them decided they have extra information

^^^^

[Morsul the Dark]

To Legate’s point one possible way to make the DT a bit more interesting/fun and make the ghost a bit more balanced is to infodrop two pieces of information. One true one false. The DT would then have to discuss which they think is true based on the information they have on hand and the live thread.

For example:

Morsul and Greenie both get 3 votes day 1
The info drop is;
No wolves voted Morsul day 1
No wolves voted Greenie day 1.

Well now the DT has to decide which group of voters is more innocent seeming and could potentially clear them. But also if they choose wrong they might lead the village astray. And of course the live thread will always have to be wary relying on them too much.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I agree with Legate's basic premise: that the infodrops are the main source of potential imbalance. I think G55 did great with figuring them out as the game went along, and I think the hardest thing to provide feedback on here would be HOW to find that sweet spot of "some, not too much" info.

And it is not just about that, the chief problem in my opinion is the "sudoku effect" combined with the unpredictability of how things unfold. I'd be curious to hear more about how did G55/BG experience this having less space to maneuver in for making the infodrops as the game continued.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I think a Ghost with no info (or only whatever info the Dead may possess--say via the Seer) wouldn't be completely useless if, say, the Ghost had a vote--as distinct from the Dead or perhaps in place of the Dead. That would make for an overall weaker Dead thread, but that's not NECESSARILY a bad thing.

That actually sounds good. I think (my memory is hazy) there were similar things in the past, along the lines of that the Dead did not really vote, but they sent a representative who then cast the vote for them. Another option would be to give the Dead two votes this way - one cast by the Dead Thread itself, counted last and therefore with no chance to break a tie, and one cast by the Ghost, at any point they decided, counted just like a normal Living vote. This would have the added value that the Ghost's info would be one Night old (which could be important as we have seen in this game, when the Dead already had Kath and her dream, while the Ghost was still fairly supportive of the notion of the Living that Pitch may be a Wolf).

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)

I must second this. In any case I think all the phantom-schemes are just a complete perversion of the game. Then again, there was not really so much the Living could force the Dead to do in this game that would be of use to them.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

To Legate’s point one possible way to make the DT a bit more interesting/fun and make the ghost a bit more balanced is to infodrop two pieces of information. One true one false. The DT would then have to discuss which they think is true based on the information they have on hand and the live thread.

For example:

Morsul and Greenie both get 3 votes day 1
The info drop is;
No wolves voted Morsul day 1
No wolves voted Greenie day 1.

Well now the DT has to decide which group of voters is more innocent seeming and could potentially clear them. But also if they choose wrong they might lead the village astray. And of course the live thread will always have to be wary relying on them too much.

This is absolutely terrifying idea, but brilliant in my opinion, and it would be great fun. I am only afraid that while it looks like fun in theory, there's no telling how it would look in practice and whether it would be a fun chaos or just nerve-wrecking chaos.

Most importantly, it, too, would be prone to reveal too much, even more than the normal infodrops. Especially since you would know that one is false, so you effectively are giving TWO pieces of info instead of one. Once the villagers disqualify or confirm one part of the info, they also learn the negative information via the other piece.

Again, it looks good in theory and in isolation. But I think with the infodrops, the key is to imagine what it would look like with them on, say, Day 5.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by G55

Lommy: Deliberately Confused

Deliberately confused about who's a wolf and why the Night kills happened, yes, but I was not lying when I said I couldn't decipher the ghosts' messages. I think Boro and Morsul must have some inhuman powers to have parsed many of them so easily!

That being said: Form, Huin, and Lottie, you totally made the game! The ghost was so fun.

Even though next time, I think it is too powerful. I haven't yet looked at what kind of hints the dead got, but I would probably take those out altogether, and leave the ghost just a messenger of the dead thread's opinions/ a visiting known innocent who gets to express their opinions. Also, I had the same thought as Huin did: there could be a rule like that once a particular quote has been used once, it cannot be used again, because I think it would be both more challenging and more fun if the same quotes couldn't repeat over and over.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Part of me wondered if the reason you could not express it in public was because the Downs would censor all of the batexcrement and bovine feces?

Oops, this game was genuinely very swearing-inducing because it was so crazy. Also I can see I have been haunting other corners of the internet because these days the autocensorhip gives me trouble it didn't before - but I think it's just fair. Also "bat excrement" is a pretty good expression if I may say so myself. But here I was just randomly implying that the wolves could take advantage of Morsul's plans and conveniently without having to think it through and explain how exactly...

And I second Legate that the dead being the tie-breaker by default made this much harder for us. In a normal game, an early misguided innocent vote such as Morsul's for Pitch can doom the whole village. In this game, the village could afford making that kind of mistakes while we had to think really really hard. Partly this is because we were a little time zone impaired (I did say the DL was fine but if I'd known I was going to be a wolf with Legate who's on the same time zone, I may have protested...) but it's not just that. Basically we concluded we needed two innocents to vote for the same other innocent (in a village with only 4 innocents left, that's a tall order) or else we can't really bandwagon on anything, or it's going to look really bad for us, because it will look just like that, two wolves bandwagoning. Especially if we are the ones voting early. A 3-3 situation with the dead as the tiebreaker was something we could not have, because the dead likely had more information (they did indeed) and we would have been in deep trouble if the game continued.

Incidentally, that's why I voted for Legate. I didn't want to bus him, but since I was unsure about our odds of winning on Day4, I figured that my voting him would be the only thing to give one of us a fighting chance if there was one more Day.

My Day4 plans were rather phantomesque and absolutely too ambitious - I was trying to convince Boro that I was wolves with Pitchwife (hence my somewhat more wolvish behaviour than before and also letting Pitchwife off the hook for believing Sally) while trying to convince Pitchwife I was innocent and the wolves were Legate and Boro. I was hoping this would result in a situation where (after Morsul's vote for Pitch), me and Pitch would have voted for Legate and Legate and Boro (and Soriman if he was around) would have voted for Pitch, and it would have been game over and wolf victory. Well that was obviously too complicated to work and I see I overdid the "making Boro suspicious of me" part. (Or then Pitch was just too convincingly innocent. I didn't take that into account!)

Anyway I was very afraid that Legate and I would vote and go to sleep early and after we were gone, Boro and Pitch would have a nice little chat and decide we two were the wolves and we'd be done for. (Hence my opening up on Day5 about my pessimism when casting my Day4 vote, switch a few words and it was absolutely genuine.)

Also if anyone wants to know why Boro on N5? Morsul and Boro were almost as good as known innocents to me; I didn't think they'd be under heavy suspicion on the last Day. I obviously had no idea Pitch had been dreamed innocent. I thought the last day would be me vs Pitchwife, and given the events of the previous Day, I wanted rather Morsul and Soriman to decide than Morsul and Boro (whom I had deliberatedly but perhaps short-sightedly convinced of my wolvishness). So I decided to go for Boro - I also thought that if he was around, they could have a nice long chat with Morsul before us Europeans would wake up and they would get to set the tone of the Day, and I didn't want that. Furthermore, I knew Morsul would vote before I'd have a chance to even read the thread, so I thought I didn't want to give him Boro for company who might convince him to rather vote for me than Pitch. Also apologies to Soriman, who albeit having expressed great sharpness for a newbie at times, I thought was going to be much more manipulatable on the last Day than Boro.

(And also, to be honest, I was tired and I didn't have much faith in my chances of winning alone, so I thought I can at least do myself a favour and kill Boro so I don't have to argue with him for the whole miserable last Day. Well... then I ended up arguing with him even though he was dead. Also since Boro had been trying to get killed the whole game, I thought only fair that we'd off him before the end. By the way, Boro, you were a recurring Nightly headache since N2 - we were like "ok so Boro is an ordo pretending to be a gifted obviously - no, wait, but if he was an actual gifted wouldn't he pretend to be an ordo pretending to be a gifted??" )

Anyway, you can only imagine how surprised I was to log in on Day5 and find out Pitchwife was declared innocent via the ghost and Morsul had already done me a huge favour (or so I perceived it) by going defensive even though no one had really suspected him for Days. I was like "well, looks like I will have a fighting chance after all..."

[Thinlómien]

By the way, I have to say that Legate and I have lived together for 8 years soon (geez we're getting old) and there have been many werewolf games and it's never been a problem until now! We'd never been wolves together before and being in the same room with your fellow wolf during the Days and being unable to communicate... that's the worst thing ever. Especially Day4 and Night5 (when we were not allowed to communicate because one of us was dead and one of us was living) were absolutely insanity-inducing. Fortunately the Moddess was kind enough to listen to my rants so I was just texting her while Legate was sitting literally next to me.

Also wolves living together does have the advantage of extra Nightly plotting time. On N4 we came up with a rather complicated, very subtle scheme how to communicate to each other during the Day on the thread - and it turned out to be so complicated and subtle that we missed/misinterpreted each other's communication and it was absolutely useless.

[Pitchwife]

Now I've had a decent amount of sleep at last - staying up till after 1am twice a week when you're working isn't healthy at all, and I feel for our Finns for whom it was even worse. Also had a few peeks at the Dead thread - I'll read the whole thing one of these days, but let me say I just loved Formy's colourful expletives ("By Manwë's blue nether regions" ).

I think I'll start these comments by apologising to Hui for that braindead vote on D2. That was definitely another episode in the continuing series of games featuring Ordwife as the Honorary Cobbler (although TBH I didn't see another option, as I still thought sally was being framed at the time, and I didn't want to vote Lottie or Boro). Also great job picking the Ghost quotes!

Next has to be ++Morsul for MVP. Never ever again pretend you're not smart! You played an awesome game, and I'm sorry it took me too long to trust you on D5 - we could still have won. (Also I hope the car thing will sort itself out.)

Wolves sally, Lommy, Legate - well played, like I said, you deserved to win. I don't think I would have suspected sally without the Ghost info, not until she contradicted herself about her Seer dreams. And it's funny I suspected Lommy on D1 and Legate on D2, but then you, Lommy played the Deliberately Confused part well enough to keep me in doubt. (Btw when I saw your triumph howl post after the final narration I knew exactly how you must be feeling, and I was so happy for you I almost didn't mind losing. These are the moments we play WW for, aren't they?)

Boro - excellent work as a Ghostbuster, and you deserve to be MVP along with Morsul. Having to convince you of my innocence on D4 was tough but fortunately it all went well.

Kath - sorry for my part in drawing you out and getting you Night killed, but I'm glad you dreamed me when you did!

Lottie and Form - you both rocked the Ghost roles, it was both helpful and fun to have you haunting us (especially the troll quote)!

Greenie - wish we could have had you around longer, even if you suspected me for suspecting Lommy who actually was a wolf!

Soriman - that wasn't bad at all for a first game! I hope you enjoyed your first foray into this bloodthirsty and mind-twisting corner of the Downs, and we'll see you again!

G55 and BG - thank you both for modding such a great and fun game! I loved the narrations, and the Ghost role was a fun addition to the game.

As for the balance issues that have been discussed, I concur that Ghost + infodrops + tie-breaking Dead vote is a bit much. I'd say

• either keep the Ghost and eliminate the drops, so the Ghost can only communicate the speculations of the Dead and dreams of a dead Seer (I almost wrote Songs of a Dead Dreamer here), and also limit the use of quotes
• or keep the drops and eliminate the Ghost, and also make the Dead vote count as a normal vote, or have the Dead empower the vote of a living player, as in the last game.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Next has to be ++Morsul for MVP. Never ever again pretend you're not smart! You played an awesome game, and I'm sorry it took me too long to trust you on D5 - we could still have won. (Also I hope the car thing will sort itself out.)

A. I’m just waiting to schedule the repairs since the shop is closed until Monday and I couldn’t call them in time yesterday, the fault is very clear so their insurance is not fighting it. So easy peasy.

B. Oh I am very smart(self pat on back) I’m just not a schemer. The “say whatever is your head damn the consequences” thing isn’t an act. A regular remark from my boss is I tell my direct reports too much. But why lie to the people that work under me. They should know the score . So when I get called out for these deceptions and schemes that’s way too much credit and not in my wheel house. Heck my best defense as a wolf is to pretend to be a simple cobbler Ha