Tapestry of Dreams, Part 2 Discussion

[mark12_30]

WOw. Guess my stuff's easy compared to that.

I will do the best I can. I am in the middle of a spring like no other. BUt being done by april 10 is a good goal for me too. I think.

[mark12_30]

In case a bit of clarity is wanted, here's what I think I was thinking: Avarien "Followed the child" as in, Indil knew where Nimrodel is. The men did the tracking to find Indil &co; Avarien knew that Nimrodel was somewhere nearby but without clarity. Indil showed her where (or at least gave her a clear direction, 'thataway'.)

If anyone doesn't like it I'll edit. Just trying to make progress.

[littlemanpoet]

Fascinating. Helen, you have a mind for Elves. But I'm interested in the human side of this. I know that Roy will feel a joy just as powerful, if not more so, than that of the Elves, but for a different reason. The other humans, however, are going to find the laughter catching, but not knowing what their laughing about, and there should be some embarrassment and confusion among them as they must deal with these suddenly "beyond them" strong personalities. In addition, the humans would not be able to so easily dismiss the matter of Roy. There has been betrayal, and the humans probably don't understand much less agree with Erebemlin's pronouncement that Roy's doom is his own. THey'll want an explanation and certainly they'll want to be brought up to date as to what has happened.

Jorje, meanwhile, should be feeling the laughter and barking his canine head off with delight, maybe even howling with glee.

I can see writing that. But I'm wondering if Formy wants to take a stab at it too, and Helen, what about you maybe writing Ravion doing that wondering? And I'd sure get a kick out of how Indil would fit into this.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I can see writing that. But I'm wondering if Formy wants to take a stab at it too, and Helen, what about you maybe writing Ravion doing that wondering? And I'd sure get a kick out of how Indil would fit into this.

Formy, unfortunately, is starting to descent into paper-hell, and is fighting a rearguard battle with a cold, so it'd be best not too wait on him. That being said, I am still keeping up, and a quick post with Bergil's reaction would be fun... so if I have time, I'll try and put one up in the next day or so, but don't wait for me if you're ready to move on.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So I have come to the realization in the past few weeks that

1) sharks can jump out of the water
2) da Vinci was painting when Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue

but more applicably,

3) Indil has unresolved parent issues.

I need her to 'come to terms' with her parents' death. And by that, I mean not that she has to move beyond is psychologically/emotionally/etcetera, but that she simply needs to realize that her parents are dead and react to it, instead of having a mental block to it. Indil needs to know her parents aren't coming back. Anybody have any suggestions as to how I could bring this about without it feeling uncomfortably convoluted?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Fascinating. Helen, you have a mind for Elves. But I'm interested in the human side of this. I know that Roy will feel a joy just as powerful, if not more so, than that of the Elves, but for a different reason. The other humans, however, are going to find the laughter catching, but not knowing what their laughing about, and there should be some embarrassment and confusion among them as they must deal with these suddenly "beyond them" strong personalities. In addition, the humans would not be able to so easily dismiss the matter of Roy. There has been betrayal, and the humans probably don't understand much less agree with Erebemlin's pronouncement that Roy's doom is his own.

That 'pronouncement' was partly due to Erebemlin's sensing multiple-- er-- layers in Raefindan, but also from the sense that Nimrodel was nearby, and his king's joy at hand, so, more pressing things to do.

THey'll want an explanation and certainly they'll want to be brought up to date as to what has happened.

Indeed; I think that is why I left the humans unwritten. Ravion will be quite torn about it all. WIll Roy indeed laugh? Interesting! I did not see that. THe rohirrim I don't see clearly either. Nethwador will catch Amroth's laughter (good call) but that's all I clearly see.

Jorje, meanwhile, should be feeling the laughter and barking his canine head off with delight, maybe even howling with glee.

Good dog!

I can see writing that. But I'm wondering if Formy wants to take a stab at it too, and Helen, what about you maybe writing Ravion doing that wondering? And I'd sure get a kick out of how Indil would fit into this.

I can think about Ravion for a little and then put up a post perhaps this evening.

I needed recreation, and this is just the medicine. Thanks to the three of you.

Fea: Da Vinci painted the great blue sea in 1493??? Wow. Did not know that. Umm, so... INdil's parents. Hmm. Perhaps Bergil and Avarien can combine for this. Perhaps Avarien/Mellonin takes a maternal interest in Indil (meep, I'm not sure I can write it, feel free) and then perhaps Bergil confides in Mellonin that Indil's parents likely came to a bad end. Once she gets that hint, perhaps Avarien can gently explore Indil's mind together with her, and help her remember, in order to help her grieve.

Formy or Fea, Feel free to write it if you like it. My head isn't in that space, at least not this afternoon.

[littlemanpoet]

My sense for Indil and the parents issue is that it rises to the surface when all the adventure has quieted, at least for a spell. That's when Indil's own emotions will take over and surprise her as well as everybody else. Something as simple as mildly tearful wish with words like "I wish papa and mama were here." And then the words themselves can evoke the stronger emotions of fear that they're never coming back and all the turmoil that goes with that.

I could post for Roy soon, but I'm not sure when. Busy night tonight (concert) and then busy day tomorrow (men's group & then youth group "boot camp" over night), so Sunday afternoon/evening may be my first chance to post.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Something as simple as mildly tearful wish with words like "I wish papa and mama were here." And then the words themselves can evoke the stronger emotions of fear that they're never coming back and all the turmoil that goes with that.

Perfect. I love it.

I'm busy this weekend too. Mostly painting, since I have a pile of professional quality paintings due to be judged on Wednesday.

But maybe this afternoon before everybody's out of classes, I can slip in and write something nice.

[littlemanpoet]

Well it's cool to see all this flurry of activity! Next time someone suggests splitting a party late in an rpg, I'm going to put my foot down and say "no way, you're asking for trouble!" Of course, there may not be a next time, depending on my other current commitments..... . I'll wait for Fea's save to be filled and perhaps for Formy to post by the end of Sunday.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Save filled. Short and sweet.

[littlemanpoet]

That was deft, Fea.

I will now wait for Formy to do the uncomfortable Bergil post that must be written before I post again.

[Formendacil]

Your words had more confidence in my likelihood of writing than I did, Elempi... Passion Sunday weekend and into Holy Week are not unbusy times for a seminarian.

However, it seems your faith was well-placed. Though posted after you, there is in fact a Bergil post up, awaiting Indil's reply that, in truth, her family is not around to be found... or whatever.

As always, I'm open to comments/criticisms...

[mark12_30]

Formy, I like that Bergil is eerie of the elves. Nice touch.

Fea. That was wow.

[littlemanpoet]

While Helen was posting, I was reading. Both of you, Formy and Fea, Wow! Fascinating writing! I'm stunned by the maturity in little Indil in the last post. It came sooner than I expected, but it just has the feel of rightness. Wow!

Helen, can you post Ravion's or anybody else's reactions to Raefindan's confession? I could post for Ædegard, but I fear I have a bias that Ædegard would not understand.

[mark12_30]

Um... we'll see, here goes.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Fea. That was wow.

Thanks very much.

Originally Posted by elempi

I'm stunned by the maturity in little Indil in the last post. It came sooner than I expected, but it just has the feel of rightness. Wow!

Gracias. It just seemed right. So I trusted in the instinct, and based on your reactions, I'm glad I did.

[mark12_30]

lmp,

Be blunt about exactly what you'd like changed, and I will make it so... meanwhile the pillow calleth.

Sigh no more, pine, til the wind of the morn
Fall, moon; dark be the land;
hush, hush, oak, ash and thorn,
hushed be all water til dawn is at hand.

[littlemanpoet]

Raefindan deems himself culpable for Aeron's death because in his mind he lied to himself; in his will he chose to do so; and in his actions he did so. These self-deceits, as minor as they seemed, left him open to the manipulations of Tharonwë.

So he is most apt to say something like, "I own Aeron's death in mind, will, and deed, though if not for the evil mind of he who killed Gwyllion I would not have done so."

However that is tortured, and I cannot think in this short time of a better way to say it.

[mark12_30]

Let me know if you'd like me to mod the post, otherwise I assume-- forward.

[littlemanpoet]

Change the first part of Raefindan's last sentence to this:

"Though my will, mind and body were used, it was another who sought to kill,..." and then finish it the way you have.

[mark12_30]

OK, done.

[littlemanpoet]

So I've been saying that it's not far from the pass to the vale. Are we satisfied with the springs of the Gwathlo as to where the vale is (in general)?

[mark12_30]

I was thinking, they march thru the night and arrive at dawn. Reasonable? Or too quick?

Gwathlo is in Eriador. Did you mean Gilrain?

[mark12_30]

Gilrain is too far west. What pass did we go over? I know we never made it as far aw Erech, not nearly. I'll try and figure out where we crossed the mountains.

[mark12_30]

lmp said:

Okay, I'm cool with that too. Celuien has already said she's okay with it. So okay, let's keep the momentum going, and have Nimrodel (map 45 now) near the source of the Gilraen. That way she has been consistently about 3,000 feet up, from the Paths of the Dead to near the Gilraen. I'm cool with that. That gives everybody a little farther to travel, which is fine too.

Okay. Gilrain. Rechecking map.

If we want Gilrain then apparently we are south of the the beacon of... Minrimmon.

Erelas might have a nicer "pass" thru the white mountains, though. that would put us at the stream of Celos rather than Gilrain. But I guess it doesn't really matter. Either of those stream s show up on the map fairly far north into the mountains. And they would be little bubbly streams, far up into the mountains, with little pools and glades. So pick one. Gilrain, or Celos?

I was a bit stressed about the travel times; but we have been wandering and hunting, whereas the Rohirrim went from Dunharrow to Minas Tirith in four days hard riding. So we did some slow-and-steady, a few loopbacks. I guess its' okay.

Rougly fifty miles, or a midge more, from Erelas to Celos, or, from Minrimmon to Gilrain. maybe. How long have we been travelling from Saethryd's cottage? And how far up the mountainside was Saethryd's cottage? Let's say it was a fiull days' travel but not up to the treeline? I'll go look at what we've been doing since we left Saethryd's house.

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry, Gwathlo was off the cuff memory, which is apparently poor. Looking at Map 45 in the Journeys of Frodo book, I have been writing under the working assumption that we're talking about the first pass west of Mindolluin so that the party comes down from the mountains between the Celos and the Sirith. The Vale would therefore be near the sources of Celos. Or maybe they could be beyond the Celos, near the Gilraen. We could simply narrate (tell rather than show) a couple days journey through the heights until that point, with little happening except movement. That doesn't hurt our rpg, I don't think. Whatever you want to do.

[mark12_30]

Leaving Saethryd's house: post 119. Presumably we rode all day. (Somehow all those horses disappeaed by post 137 and Roheryn is alone. This just ain't right; When Roheryn goes down the mountainside all the rest should go with him.)

Nighttime when Mellonin rested under duress: post 133

daylight, at what sounds like a mountain pass: maybe over the ridge?-- : post 137 )GLad to notice that Roheryn went DOWN the mountainside)

This same post also has sundown; and there they find INdil.

Then we march downhill all night til dawn. And that's where we are now.

So .... if Saethryd's cottage was a day's journey up the mountains, call that eighteen miles on horseback. We left Saethryd's cottage: slow riding in deep snow: Call it Twelve miles. So we've gone thirty out of fifty when we meed up with Erebemlin &co. Rest one night. Hard march the next day: call it ten, turning the horses loose. So now we've gone forty.

THen we find INdil &co, and instead of resting (what are we, NUTS) we march all night again. Call it another ten miles or fifteen. So we'd be fifty or fifty-five miles total, most or all of the way down the other side. (Are we that athletic?)

Maybe we should reconsider. Elves desperate to go on; humans MUST rest. Maybe even Erebemlin has a moment of sanity and realizes that Mellondu's body can't handle the constant work, let alone the weakened Mellonin; and Erebemlin calls for a rest.

But they are almost to the end of the quest. NO, it doesn't make sense. THey HAVE to push on. Mayvbe the Rohirrim fall behind but the elves have to push down the mountain and find her. Nothing else makes sense.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Sorry, Gwathlo was off the cuff memory, which is apparently poor. Looking at Map 45 in the Journeys of Frodo book, I have been writing under the working assumption that we're talking about the first pass west of Mindolluin so that the party comes down from the mountains between the Celos and the Sirith. The Vale would therefore be near the sources of Celos. Or maybe they could be beyond the Celos, near the Gilraen. We could simply narrate (tell rather than show) a couple days journey through the heights until that point, with little happening except movement. That doesn't hurt our rpg, I don't think. Whatever you want to do.

Whether we came south from Nardol to Tumladen, or from Erelas to Celos (I'd prefer the latter) I think we are okay-- as long as it's a LITTLE stream high up on the mountainsides, which pauses in a high glade to form a pool, and then goes downhill again, building strength as it goes tumbling downhill.

I think we're almost there.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

THey HAVE to push on. Mayvbe the Rohirrim fall behind but the elves have to push down the mountain and find her. Nothing else makes sense.

If the Elves can't wait, surely Roy and Indil/Angela and whoever else can't hang out in the background, arriving once everything's already happened. I think everybody who needs to show up needs to show up at the same time...

[mark12_30]

I just called a nap. It should be at least two hours, while the herd of horses pick their way up the hillside. Maybe when the horses arrive, Mellondu and Mellonin are fast asleep and unwakeable?

Which woudl be a good thing because we haven't had enough dreams. The tapestry should be taking final shape about now.

It would be kind of cool to do one more days travel, or something, and get there by starlight, or at the next dawn. Erebemlin and Raefindan between the two of them can corral Tharonwe, right? And maybe Erebemlin watches over Tharonwe alone, so that Raefindan (mortal body) can get some rest too, and then Raefindan can also dream some more.

[littlemanpoet]

Wow, Helen. Good stuff! I'm going to have to wait until Sat. for inspiration for dreaming, I fear. I'll see what I can do with Roy.

I'm wondering if there is something that can be done like this: the Elves and Raefindan - carrying Indil as needed - push ahead, Raefindan being rested compared to the rest of the men. And the Rohirrim fall behind (what are they doing for food???). That way, some Elvish stuff could happen when first they get to the Vale, and then the Rohirrim arrive and see some of the results, and then whatever denouement they need, and so on. ????

[mark12_30]

Having slept on it, I'd really prefer Celos. "Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui." Legolas has introduced it to us. Since he introduced Amroth & Nimrodel to us as well, it seems only fitting.

[littlemanpoet]

Now what? Shall we have them arrive? If so, what do they find there, and who handles what, how?

I do have a notion to post Tharonwe's thoughts...

[mark12_30]

When they do arrive, I will be focused on big stress between Amroth and the mad Nimrodel. They will reunite, sort of-- but it will not be an easy reunion, not cheerful-looking at all, not particularly uplifting for any of the mortals involved.

And there will be serious stress in Mellondu's heart, who has also fallen for the Nimrodel that Amroth once knew. No happy ending there.

THose are my two main foci. What are everyone else's plans? Anyone has a happy ending for somebody? I do have happy ending planned for Mellonin and Ravion. And Nethwador and Bella can be happy too.

Erebemlin will go back to Marigold.

Avarien will find peace.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

What are everyone else's plans? Anyone has a happy ending for somebody?

Indil has been through quite enough to deserve a happy ending. I see no reason why she shouldn't get one. Ie: a loving family, however untraditional it may be.

First though, Elempi and I need to resolve how Indil and Angela are intertwined.

[littlemanpoet]

Ædegard and Leafa will get their happy ending. Jorje is already happy, and will remain so no matter what, considering present company. Raefindan is a tricky one. My plan used to be that he "Enoch'd" out of modern day life but got detoured by the Hand of Eru to this here and now, and that once his task was performed, he would continue to his Enoch adventure. However, with the advent of his Imrazor-ness and the possibility that he is actually an Elf in (what he thought was ) a Human body, radically changes everything. With Angela as Indil's "soul", when Indil arrives at the glade, there will be an immediate joining and Indil will think thoughts and speak words beyond her years.

But here's where it gets sticky. Angela has an "old soul" compared to Indil, but it's still a question of whether the memories of Angela's future will have any effect on Indil. Perhaps there is some kind of magical/spiritual "time-release" such that the initial lucidity in the glade disappears and as Indil grows up, more of Angela's mind and memory and wisdom wake up into her, matching her years.

But here's where it gets even stickier. Is Roy an Elf? That calls into question his parentage in modern times; after all, his lineage has had the span of years of humans for time untold. Is Roy a Human with a suddenly woken up Elven fëa? If so, how does that mesh with his modern experience with all its connections (such as his Christianity)? Assuming, for the sake of this story, that Roy really was Imrazor and has been (by special dispensation) reincarnated for the purposes of the Mysterious One, I can imagine Raefindan reuniting with Mithrellas and them adopting Indil as their daughter. Maybe that will work. Raefindan/Imrazor can eventually die at a ripe old age, being in a Human body (he can last with an Elven fëa because of the power he brings with him from his Faith), and so not "cross over against" his Roy Edwards persona. Can't have the poor bloke in two places at once.

What do you think, Fea? Happy enough ending? Are there any holes in it?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Tharonwë. I'm leaning toward no redemption. I can see him having a Saruman-like death.

One final thing. My storytelling energy is at an ebb at the moment, as I am again ill with some nasty bug that has me weak in body if not in mental planning; but story writing is different, and I'm tired. I'll write as soon as I feel up to it.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

it's still a question of whether the memories of Angela's future will have any effect on Indil. Perhaps there is some kind of magical/spiritual "time-release" such that the initial lucidity in the glade disappears and as Indil grows up, more of Angela's mind and memory and wisdom wake up into her, matching her years.

I can imagine Raefindan reuniting with Mithrellas and them adopting Indil as their daughter.

Say Raefindan reunites with Mithrellas and adopts Indil, who grows up to be incredibly Angela-esque: where does Roy Edwards's feelings for Angela fit into this? In his incarnation as Mithrellas's lover, do the romantic inclinations of Roy dissipate? I can see them raising Indil, certainly, as Indil is a human descendant of Mithrellas and Imrazor anyhow, and that makes total sense. But with the presence of Angela in her, I'm worried it complicates the situation...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Say Raefindan reunites with Mithrellas and adopts Indil, who grows up to be incredibly Angela-esque: where does Roy Edwards's feelings for Angela fit into this? In his incarnation as Mithrellas's lover, do the romantic inclinations of Roy dissipate? I can see them raising Indil, certainly, as Indil is a human descendant of Mithrellas and Imrazor anyhow, and that makes total sense. But with the presence of Angela in her, I'm worried it complicates the situation...

Let it do so. No-one ever said story resolutions don't have their "next story" possibilities. I think it would make for a fascinating tale, don't you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think it would make for a fascinating tale, don't you?

Yes. But if we ever do a specialized sequel... can it wait a few years?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Yes. But if we ever do a specialized sequel... can it wait a few years?

Certainly. But that means that I'll have to bug you in a few years and ask if you want to write it.