Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Celuien]

*Raises hand nervously*

The court proceedings seem awfully important. And there are some other issues *coughDegasSaeryncough* that would realistically come up in detail as soon as possible after the crowd currently present dispersed. I wouldn't mind getting a little out of sync, at least for this special occassion. It would make a bigger jump for changing the time again, but my humble opinion is that it would be nice to finish off court and related business before moving on to real time. If only to give these bombshells that Eodwine's been dropping the attention they deserve.

[JennyHallu]

Plus I'd like some time to work on the Lin/Degas relationship and explore how that's changed since the kidnapping. That may take more than just the court proceedings...the evening after would be the very least I could use.

[Firefoot]

And Aedhel and Leof need to have some kind of making-up.

[Folwren]

Post placed.

Elempi, Thornden is also curious about what is going to be happening to Lys once the boy is healed and able to get onto his feet. Would this time at the court, before he steps down, be a good time to ask whatever question he has? Or should he wait until later to bring up that topic?

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

Wait until later, Folwren, please.

Okay, the consensus seems to be to have this day go a full day, which I intended all along anyway. Jenny's request to have the next Day be the next DAY, now, that will have to be a shortened up day, posting-wise, but I'm okay with that.

So the upshot is that we need to tie up some loose ends on that second Day. If you could all work toward that, it would help; that way character development can progress without too much of a feeling of disconnect.

Please don't see this 'skipped time' thing as an abysmal blockade to what you are trying to do, but as a 'problem of the form' that needs to be worked with rather than against. It's kind of like poetry in rhyme and meter, or like the need for a children's book to have shorter chapters. Limitations to the form can actually AID instead of detract, but we have to LET it do that. I hope that makes enough sense. At least I know what I mean....

[Folwren]

Well, I think I understand what you're saying.

I don't think I have any loose ends to tie up save one, but if it doesn't look like I can resolve it very nicely with only my thinking on it, then I might PM you about it and see what your opinion on the matter is and what I can do with it and the time change.

And I mentioned that I might bring my sister into the Hall this day. Well, I think I'll skip on that for this day. It seems that it's going to be busy the whole time. If it turns out that there is some time freed up, I might. . .

-- Folwren

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Please don't see this 'skipped time' thing as an abysmal blockade to what you are trying to do, but as a 'problem of the form' that needs to be worked with rather than against. It's kind of like poetry in rhyme and meter, or like the need for a children's book to have shorter chapters. Limitations to the form can actually AID instead of detract, but we have to LET it do that. I hope that makes enough sense. At least I know what I mean....

Understood. I think it's an interesting way to run the Hall. Sort of nice to go through the seasons along with the characters. But there are just a lot of loose ends for this particular day that I think make it worth holding off on the time change.

Oh, and I don't know if Garstan will have loose ends with Eodwine because I don't know what the Eorl is planning yet... There are definitely some loose ends between my characters and Linduial, but those might be better handled on the AiE thread. Jenny knows what I'm talking about. (A surprise. )

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Oh, and I don't know if Garstan will have loose ends with Eodwine because I don't know what the Eorl is planning yet...

Actually, Garstan's "court date" will be the next month rather than this, because Garstan and kids came in the middle of everyone else's "month-long review". I don't recall that any kind of formal time period was even set up for Garstan, was there?

[Celuien]

I don't recall that any kind of formal time period was even set up for Garstan, was there?

No. There wasn't. He sort of came in unexpectedly and wound up staying at the Hall to work. We never really formalized what was going on with him. I thought he might have a court date for that reason. Up to you, of course. I don't know what the proper custom would be. And I don't even know what transpired during the events of the rescue, other than taking that knife wound for Eodwine.

[littlemanpoet]

Ah. Good point. I think a little exchange between Eodwine and Garstan would be most appropriate on court day. I shall arrange it, as soon as Jenny speaks for Marenil....

[Celuien]

Sounds good.

[JennyHallu]

I'm sorry, LMP, I know you're fond of it...but this time-jump thing is an abysmal blockade and I'm frustrated with working against it, for several reasons, and these are a major factor in why my post for Marenil is a long time coming. You can call it a limitation of the form if you please, but if I wanted to write haiku, I would. Here, I will:

Elempi's time jumps
mean my characters are not
people whom I know.

Or another:

If I have a plan
that is my own, I must weave
a separate tale.

Here's one:

What happens next day?
Elempi informs me it
has no importance.

There is a major difference between a format and a stumbling block. A format is just that, a form, within which infinite creativity is possible. Poetry in rhyme and meter is not a stumbling block, it is a form. I can say what I wish, it's a matter of phrasing.

Your belief that children's books require shorter chapters is an insult to all the children who read Harry Potter, not to mention all the people here who refused to adhere to such restrictive ideas of their capabilities.

I am having a hard time writing with my characters because I do not know what happens to them. I can not say how Lin has grown and changed because I don't know. That story isn't done yet, and your "problems of form" mean I can't start my own storylines in this Hall. There are characters with which I cannot interact without ruining what I wished to be surprises in my own storyline. I cannot make any further plans, because I have no way of knowing when you will skip time ahead nor how far you will do so.

Yes, this is a rant. I am irritated and frustrated. Please do not belittle my frustrations by telling yourself you've created a great "challenge" for us writers. It's not challenging, it's annoying.

Feelings expressed may not be the shared opinion of anyone other than myself. You'd have to ask others.

[Folwren]

Before anyone else errupts, I'd like to say real quick that whoever might get mad on account of Jenny's last post should all take a very deep breath and not loose their temper. I'd like to remind people that this game is being played for fun and I don't like games wherein people get mad at each other. There can be differences of opinion, and I think they can be made out peaceably.

Jenny, don't get mad. I'm not saying you should not have said what you just wrote at all.

Elempi, don't get mad, either. Consider what she's saying and try not to take it personally. Perhaps your plan of keeping up with the real date won't work after all?

I refuse to say what I think on the subject because I think if I got started, I'd end up like Jenny - getting frustrated and irritated - and I won't do it. I'll go with whatever is decided and be happy, so long as people don't bite each other's heads off in the process of deciding.

-- Folwren

[JennyHallu]

I solemnly swear that everyone's heads are still attached to their bodies, and shall remain so.

I am frustrated, and angry, but I am trying to stifle the angry. It's difficult, I'm a short-tempered Scottish firebrand, with tendencies to anger in long slow simmers punctuated by violent eruptions. My family history has records of epic feuds on both sides. Trust me, it sounds way more romantic than it is.

I mean everything I say, however. I have been thinking this through and trying to come up with a solution for several days. I have also tried to be subtle in my concerns, and it doesn't work. This is a group effort, and I would really like to see our Innkeeper put more weight on group input.

I'll hush now, and see what plays out. But I will put more effort into remaining calm. We're all adults here, anyway (or nearly there, for some of us).

I'm rather pleased with my haiku though.

EDIT: Folwren, I respect your desire to avoid conflict here, but I think you should still say where you stand on the issue if you have any preference at all, even if you never mention it again. I know I am, and trust LMP is, mature enough not to take personal offense at disagreement, and I think it's important that everyone weighs in.

[Firefoot]

I guess I fall on both sides of the argument. In some ways, I like the time jumps because realistically, character development doesn't happen so quickly on a day to day basis... think about your own lives. Interesting stuff doesn't happen every day. In RPG's like the inns, just doing every day doesn't work very well because we really are working in these characters everyday lives - not like other RPG's where you're in the middle of a journey or war or whatnot. In everyday life, people just don't change that quickly - change takes time. For example, I had (have, I guess) a character in the Green Dragon that fell in love - but this was something of an awkward situation since the whole scenario took place over the course of about three days. As another example more pertinent to the thread, what about Undome's characters? Personally, I found them a great addition, but if we did do a day-to-day sort of thing, we really wouldn't be seeing much of them because honestly, they can't be away from their farm all the time, and they weren't just going to follow Thornden to the Hall the next day.

On the other hand, I think that trying to stick to real time is a little unrealistic as well. We just don't write fast enough to get all the things that need to be said and done said and done. We're constantly having to catch up on missed time, and in that time nothing really big can happen because then you're trying to coordinate activities of several characters in flashback and not really moving forward at all. That's not saying there won't be times when larger time jumps won't be appropriate - actually, even without the RL time consideration, I could see one coming up once all these loose ends are tied up, as long as people don't go on creating more loose ends (now there's the tricky part, isn't it?).

I do think Jenny made a very valid point when she said this:

I am having a hard time writing with my characters because I do not know what happens to them. I can not say how Lin has grown and changed because I don't know. That story isn't done yet, and your "problems of form" mean I can't start my own storylines in this Hall. There are characters with which I cannot interact without ruining what I wished to be surprises in my own storyline. I cannot make any further plans, because I have no way of knowing when you will skip time ahead nor how far you will do so.

By trying to write Lin's story both here and in AiE, I could see where that's definitely a bit difficult. A lot of times, you might have some idea where your character is going in an RPG, but a lot of it depends on other characters as well, and it's a sort of "we get there when we get there" thing. Because if you plan it all out ahead of time and know exactly where the characters are going, what's the point of continuing to write the tale? I like it when my characters surprise me. It's one of the reasons I'm glad I left Leof out of it (other than the fact that I really don't see him having much place there, but whatever).

So that's my take on it. I don't think we should forego the time jumps, but I'm also not sure that we necessarily need to stick to RL time.

[Celuien]

Another fence sitter. My position is similar to Firefoot's, especially since my characters are involved in the AiE surprise...

But, please, everyone, let's not forget to have fun with the process here. We can make things work! I'm sure.

[JennyHallu]

Firefoot has really elaborated (and calmly, too!) most of my biggest concerns. I don't necessarily mean that I want to play every day, dawn to dusk, no matter what. But while not every day is significant, more are than our rush through the year, game-time, reflects. I don't mind skipping a week here and there, but months are too much. And skipping months for no conceivable reason other than to keep up with some artificial real-time thing does bother me.

And it is a MAJOR concern that we can't introduce our own storylines unless we are willing to own a game. Yes, I agreed to do so in this instance, but I expressed my concerns with doing so before I did, and they still stand. I chose to run the story because I could make it more extensive in the format of a second game, and I'm putting very real effort into it, despite the lack of interest or push from many of the players (those playing evil characters there, you're great!) It still bugs me, though, that I ran the idea of the kidnapping by LMP before I did it, and no mention was made then that I would need to be willing to own a separate game in which to play it out.

But LMP also wanted to push the smaller (in scope, not importance) matter of Anguirel's capture outside the Hall thread, and I see here a trend that makes me wary of trying to introduce anything new or major concerning my characters. If LMP does not feel any obligation to make time for our storylines, that makes it very difficult to write here.

[Anguirel]

Time-jumps...well...my only problem with them is that I feel so blasted guilty when I haven't had a chance, or an inclination, to finish a conversation properly, on time. Things do get slightly more deadlined and intense.

But I think Inn characters are different from RPG characters, in a similar way that a long, ongoing regular column is different from a book, sort of thing. At least where my style is concerned, I feel far more able to pick them up and drop them for a bit, in RPG or real time, before taking them up again with some new traits added-eg Manawyth's Rohirric getting better, his acclimatisation to Rohan, that kind of thing.

[Celuien]

Well, I'd post on AiE, but all of my characters are waiting for an opening. Garstan needs Haleth to take charge (he's the lowest ranking member of the party and won't suggest anything unless Eodwine and Haleth give him permission first) and Leodern needs the spies to arrive.

But back to the Mead Hall...

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I solemnly swear that everyone's heads are still attached to their bodies, and shall remain so.

Thank you. But for now, it's mostly Elempi's reaction to your post that I'm worried about. You've had your explosion, and being a girl myself, I realize that that's probably the worst that it will get from you, unless Elempi infuriates you in another way.

I am frustrated, and angry, but I am trying to stifle the angry. It's difficult, I'm a short-tempered Scottish firebrand, with tendencies to anger in long slow simmers punctuated by violent eruptions. My family history has records of epic feuds on both sides. Trust me, it sounds way more romantic than it is.

Eh, well, you'll be able to manage, especially since we don't get your real reaction, only that which you choose to type down. We won't see your flushed face, burning eyes, and rigid attitude, nor will we (hopefully) see your first draft of the post you write and then think better of and replace with another one, not quite so fiery.

I mean everything I say, however. I have been thinking this through and trying to come up with a solution for several days. I have also tried to be subtle in my concerns, and it doesn't work. This is a group effort, and I would really like to see our Innkeeper put more weight on group input.

Yes, yes, I believe you. I'm not asking anyone to hide their opinion on the matter if they don't want to, I'm asking them to not loose their heads.

EDIT: Folwren, I respect your desire to avoid conflict here, but I think you should still say where you stand on the issue if you have any preference at all, even if you never mention it again. I know I am, and trust LMP is, mature enough not to take personal offense at disagreement, and I think it's important that everyone weighs in.

No. I said earlier that I refuse. I will not put my weigh in. It's not so much fright of conflict - goodness knows I don't refuse an argument very often - it's just that I don't want to undermine Elempi. I'm not the leader or organizer of this entire thing. If I were, I'd up and say something, but I'm not. It is not to say that I don't think people should voice their opinions, but I think enough people have said something that I don't need to. I can work either way. I'm easy to make happy and I'm not going to add strife. I may quarrel often for real, but once in while I like being the peace maker, and this is going to be one of those times.

So, continue, but be nice.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

Wow. Three adversities in one morning and the least important is the most knotty and malign. Least important only because it's not about ultimate destiny nor a person's RL livelihood. Nevertheless important because, even though it's a game, it's real people. Knotty because it's a complex problem. Malign because there's more at work here than just the issues at hand, but that's my problem. The two other adversities I can do little if anything about; this one I can do a lot about, and so it is the most fraught with danger.

First of all, Jenny, I apologize for any insults or offenses that I have caused you. They were not intended. I sympathize with your frustration and forgive your unkindness.

Jenny, I am not the monster, nor enemy, that three days of stewing has probably conjured in your mind (believe me, I know personally what stewing can do to one's thoughts about someone). I'm not mad. Just sad and troubled.

The last time I capitulated to someone regarding a fundamental part of the creative process that I had set up, I lost heart (not meaning to), and my will to keep the thing energized became seriously curtailed. The resulting ennui caused the ultimate demise of the thing. I don't want that here.

The last time I laid down the law and said "deal with it", there was open revolt and voting with feet. I got disgusted and quit. I don't want that here either.

I wish that I had never thought of and suggested starting a sideline thread that runs concurrently with the first thread. It's causing way too many problems. What we're ending up doing with Anguirel's Manawyth situation seems to work better (you'll see soon what I mean). Nevertheless, we have to deal with it, and I don't for a minute envy the position Jenny is in, and would relieve her of it if I could. The only way to do that is to get the thing written and completed, and perhaps ----- perhaps(!) ----- we should halt the proceedings at the main site in order to accomplish that? Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Jenny

I don't necessarily mean that I want to play every day, dawn to dusk, no matter what. But while not every day is significant, more are than our rush through the year, game-time, reflects. I don't mind skipping a week here and there, but months are too much. And skipping months for no conceivable reason other than to keep up with some artificial real-time thing does bother me.

I'm quite agreeable with this middle ground approach.

Originally Posted by Jenny

And it is a MAJOR concern that we can't introduce our own storylines unless we are willing to own a game.

This isn't something that I insist on.

Originally Posted by Jenny

It still bugs me, though, that I ran the idea of the kidnapping by LMP before I did it, and no mention was made then that I would need to be willing to own a separate game in which to play it out.

I'm sorry you took this as some kind of law. You never had to run your own separate game. It was only a suggestion, and one that I thought of only after saying "go ahead if you want" to the kidnapping idea. I have to admit that I wasn't too keen on the idea, but I wasn't going to stop you.

Originally Posted by Jenny

If LMP does not feel any obligation to make time for our storylines, that makes it very difficult to write here.

I hope you don't really believe this. It's just not true, and is a rather hurtful thing to have said.

[Kath]

A suggestion:

If we are in April game time and June RL time, perhaps we could skip forward in two-weekly bursts.

So, we finish up the day at court and jump two weeks ahead. Then 'thinking back' scenes could perhaps be done to show people settling in to their new roles. Here only a few posts would be needed, and Leof could tell Eodwine about his secret (if Firefoot's plan works along those lines) and we could have the introduction of Nogrod and Lommy's characters.

After this we could skip ahead another two weeks and have Nogrod and Lommy's characters interacting with people, simply assuming that they have made their introductions already. Perhaps here Leof could make up with Adhel and Saeryn, Eodwine and Degas can have their conversation about Eodwine's intentions, now that things have calmed down a bit.

That should bring the timelines a little closer without damaging anyones storylines too much, though there would still have to be some compromise.

Jenny - I assume the basic storyline of AiE is that Linduial is freed (whether via rescue or escape I don't know as I've not seen the thread) and returns to the Mead Hall. Therefore for the first section of this time jumping she would presumably be recovering from her ordeal, so you could post her thoughts of being trapped in a comfy room rather than a cell but still trapped or something along those lines, and Marenil's thoughts on looking after her. By the second jump she would be up and about again, and you will be further on in the other thread and will have more of an idea of how she will be afterwards.

What does everyone think?

[JennyHallu]

If we can go to a more middle ground on time jumps (even if that means the real-time correlation is lost) I would be satisfied. I will certainly not ask that the MH be stopped for my own story; for better or for worse, it is semi-independent right now, and not everyone here is involved there. (Though all are welcome to make cameo posts, if they wish)

I have a couple ideas of how to work around my own personal frustration with defying physics (people in two places at once), and I actually think I'll be taking the easy way out.

I should be able to work with Marenil with no problem, as he's not really in a developing mood . Age is a great steadier.

Lin, however, will be recovering from her ordeal by returning home for a while, either with a guard on loan from Lothiriel, or with her brother. She wishes to rest, and has some matters to discuss with her father, but she shall certainly be returning (conveniently after the end of AiE) to a warm welcome, and perhaps with a more former role than anti-marriage visitor. She has matured and grown significantly, but this will allow me to delay revealing precisely how, and let Degas stew over what relationship the two young people might have.

Any questions/objections? If not, I will work out a post this evening for both of my characters.

EDIT: crossed with Kath:

I'd rather jumps be more flexible, but that's something to discuss. However, I think Lommy and Nogrod, since they're already here, shouldn't be delayed 2 weeks.

[Kath]

I'd rather jumps be more flexible, but that's something to discuss. However, I think Lommy and Nogrod, since they're already here, shouldn't be delayed 2 weeks.

But they won't, not in RL. We finish up the Court in a day or so RL, and then do the time jump. Lommy and Nogrod could then make the first posts on the new day with entering the Hall. Then they can be greeted etc.

As to your idea of sending Lin home and just having Marenil potter about a bit until AiE finishes, that would probably solve a few problems

Basically the idea is just to get the two timelines closer. If we could get court finished in a couple of days and then skip that takes up to halfway through April, right? Then say a week on introducing Lommy and Nogrod at the most and do the second jump, taking us to the beginning of June. That way in RL we would still only be halfway through June and the timelines would be almost equal.

[littlemanpoet]

I was going to suggest Linduial spending time in Gondor, but I - uh - didn't think it wise for that to come from me, considering the current 'air' in these here parts....

I'd like Lommy and Nogrod to appear in court day as they have planned. Sorry it's taking so long....

[Kath]

I'd like Lommy and Nogrod to appear in court day as they have planned. Sorry it's taking so long....

OK, so how about they appear and introduce themselves to Eodwine, and then we skip forward and we can have a few 'remembering' posts to start with?

If that's ok with Lommy and Nogrod that is.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

OK, so how about they appear and introduce themselves to Eodwine, and then we skip forward and we can have a few 'remembering' posts to start with?

If that's ok with Lommy and Nogrod that is.

After the court is over we will introduce ourselves to Eodwine. After he's answered us we can jump in time.

[JennyHallu]

Let's not shorten the time we intended to spend on this day, and jump after Lin's leavetaking early tomorrow morning.

[Kath]

Hey we have agreement! How's that sound to you lmp? Your game, your rules. But this should work out ok for everyone I think.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kath

Hey we have agreement! How's that sound to you lmp? Your game, your rules. But this should work out ok for everyone I think.

It'll work. As long as nobody thinks that I don't feel any obligation to make time for others' storylines; far be it from me to make it difficult to write here.

[Kath]

lmp, I'd say that by allowing half your players to join a whole other side story while still being sure that they'd be able to commit to the main story, you've definitely made time for others' storylines

[JennyHallu]

There...sorry for the delay, now the court can continue.

I plan to occasionally post with Lin through her absence, as away posts. I still need to transition from frightened post-kidnapping Lin to the true woman I plan to bring back to the Hall.

LMP, I have some rather unconventional thoughts on Lin's return (whene'er that happens) that I would like to discuss with you and see if we can get the kinks worked out of. AiE should give us enough time to make this idea work, if you think it's decent. Mostly a change in role...it's time for Lin to grow up, and I think the shock of the last couple of weeks will prove a perfect catalyst. Her return should somehow reflect that, and I wish her to step into an adult role and adult duties. Lots of ideas. Want to discuss. PM me or something.

[littlemanpoet]

After yesterday's difficulties I'm not ready to write a post on the Eorling Mead Hall. I'm not sure I can work with Marenil's writer that closely. Trust needs to be rebuilt first. I need some reassurances.

[JennyHallu]

Agh! I'm not mad! I have trust! I meant nothing personal by anything I said, and if you took it that way, I am sorry. Please do not delay the thread or punish others disconnected from this disagreement through your personal issues with me. I'm allowed to disagree, and I thought the discussion yesterday was friendly and productive. I feel I understand where many of the writers here are coming from more fully, and didn't think to hear of it again. My excitement over the doings in this hall had returned in force...I'm sorry there's still an issue.

If you don't trust me enough to write with me, LMP, I'll leave for a time if that's your wish. All Eodwine has to do is nod or something at Marenil.

[Folwren]

*Folwren looks very sadly and very shyly at lmp*

Please, lmp? Please write something. She didn't mean to make you mad. I'm sure she didn't mean to do anything like that.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I thought that was very productively managed. Every story has a few setbacks, most especially with collaborative writing. Surely, LMP, you remember the right snit I got into regarding the introduction of Roggie into ATM1? We worked it out and look, we've finished game one, moved on to game two, and a challenge we faced turned into a pivotal role in the story. A legitimate concern has been voiced here and it seems to have been dealt with in a way that appears acceptable on all sides. Unless there remains an issue with it that hasn't been voiced? With the group we have here, all ages and personalities working as one to create something not only fun to write but great to read, I'd hate to see hard feelings cloud the process or the result.

Now, if there's anything I can do to provide a bit of comfortable middle ground?

[littlemanpoet]

There appeared to be baseless assumptions that looked like personal attacks and aspersions on my character. Apparently that was debating method, and, apparently, during an already bad day, I misread them. I'd like to think so. In fact, none of what I've reread of your posts, Jenny, seems as bad as it seemed yesterday.

Therefore: Jenny, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Please do the same for me. If that's agreeable, we can move on.

[JennyHallu]

Lovely. I'd like to think this is finally behind us. Onward and upward!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Very good.

On a different note, I don't see myself posting on the game thread in the next week or two. Apart from entertaining guests and several other things, I'm starting a new job and dealing with the looming death of my great grandmother. I hope Saeryn and Degas (or Farahil) aren't needed.

Jen, feel free to write Farahil, if you're comfortable with the idea of it. He was going to ask her to return for safety reasons and big brotherly ones, but you beat me to it.

Ye Impish One, feel free to write Saeryn. You know her well at this point. Degas... well... he's just Degas. We can save that Talk until I'm better able to participate in it.

[JennyHallu]

I think delaying the Talk between Degas and Lin until her return will make it all the hairier...especially if lmp and I are able to get some of my ideas for said return hammered out.