Riddles in the Downs

[mhagain]

I am actually quite convinced that what we are talking here is not a person or a being, and that the "I", "me", etc references in the riddle are a typical example and imitation of Tolkien's tendency to personify such things. In that sense it's almost a riddle within a riddle, but then don't all the best riddles contain misleading things of such nature?

We're looking for a river or other natural feature here, people. I will now guess that it's either one of two things: the Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood, or The Paths of the Dead. There are parts of the riddle that I can't totally fit to them, however (specifically "you'll beat me" and "your friend is now lost"), but each one we rule out is one less to have to guess.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The net is really closing in. I think we can expect a correct answer in a matter of... posts

I am waiting for the person who posts a correct answer with proper explanation of all the lines (since a blind shot with random success might be unfair for those who have worked here so hard and so long). Don't worry, I don't want any super-hyper-precise explanations. Just try to think hard, make a conclusion, try to verify your answer going through all the lines of the riddle, and then post it.

[mhagain]

OK, rather than attempt an answer at this point, I'm going to post some speculation. Some of it may be bang on, some of it may be miles off. If anybody else uses this to determine the correct answer, well all's fair in love, war and riddles.

Some of this is in question form, but I don't expect an answer - it's merely intended to stimulate thought.

"I'm as dark as night"
Not the night, just night. How dark is night anyway? Some nights can be fairly bright... And what is meant by "dark"? Mere absence of light, or "The Shadow"?

"I run far from light"
Run need not be the physical act of running, as I said a few posts back. What is meant by light? It need not be daylight... Again though, it's not the light.

"Spell is upon me"
I read this as referring to something enchanted. Maybe not specifically enchanted (otherwise it would say "spell is put upon me"), but enchanted in nature.

"As you will now see"
See may refer to vision or to realisation.

"You'll beat me I know"
Legate has already confirmed that "I know" may be misleading here, and just exists to make the rhyme. Beat as in "defeat", or "overcome"?

"But I bring the woe"
A consequence of beating?

"Your friend is now lost"
Is this a reference to a specific incident?

"But that was the cost"
Again, is this this a consequence of beating?


And I'm afraid that my post had it's intended effect ..... on me.

So I will attempt an answer. Based on the above, I guess...

The Ring

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It's not the Ring But I like your "little" interpretation of the riddle. I'm not saying anything, though, about if it is correct or not (or what of it is correct and what not). I think also no more hints from me are needed. So from now on I'll just post "yes" or "no".

[The Might]

Maybe Ungoliant

I'm as dark as night, - which she was, also in earlier versions an incarnated form of the Darkness
I run far from light, - she fed on light, still she hid herself from it
spell is upon me - maybe because she had followed Melkor in the past
as you will now see. - and was summoned by him later
You'll beat me, I know - perhaps talking about the balrogs
but I bring the woe: - destroyed the trees
your friend is now lost, - Finwe killed at Formenos
but that was the cost. - To get the Silmarils

[mhagain]

Another possibility, it matches better in the second half than in the first, but with a small stretch of the imagination, "as dark as night" and "run far from light" could refer to the shadows under the trees in Doriath.

The Girdle of Melian

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Again, no. Both wrong. TM, I already said somewhere before that "you" means the same "you" all the time - I doubt Finwë was Melkor's friend (from his side surely not). mhagain, I think you started to (quite unnecesarrily) go too far from your original thoughts. Rethink everything.

[The Might]

I'm thinking of Turin

I'm as dark as night, - In reference to his sword and perhaps secrecy
I run far from light, - He did run through the tunnel of the Noldor twice
spell is upon me - doomed by Melkor
as you will now see. - as seen after he slays Glaurung
You'll beat me, I know - talking to his sword
but I bring the woe: - not sure which one is meant here, Turin was responsible for many
your friend is now lost, - Beleg Cuthalion, the former owner
but that was the cost. - perhaps the cost for Turin to receive the sword

[Shards of Narsil]

It's been ten days since the riddle was posted, and I've been racking my brain without success (as it seems have others as well).

Maybe throw us a bone Legate?

That is, if The Might and Mhagain agree since they have been actively involved in this one.

[Thenamir]

I'm barging in here, with not a single post on this thread heretofore (and kudos to Legate for not only the composition, but the artful replies to the guesses so far) but something jogged my mind in the last two lines of this one. My guess is the Ring itself, speaking to Gollum, perhaps at the Crack of Doom, but I can't make it all fit. Here's what I have:

I'm as dark as night, - not sure about this one, perhaps though it was shiny gold, it was dark in purpose, not in color.
I run far from light, - the darkness of the Barad-Dur and perhaps also of Gollum's cave?
Spell is upon me - the spell of the Dark Lord at the Ring's forging, perhaps the inscription? (hmmm...spell...inscription...could this be a horrible pun?)
As you will now see. - another I'm not sure about, perhaps the fact that the inscription appears when heated, as it undoubtedly did when cast into the chasm, depicted in the movie but not explicitly mentioned in the book.
You'll beat me, I know - Gollum was the cause of the eventual destruction of the Ring
But I bring the woe: - fairly obvious for all who carried or desired the Ring
Your friend is now lost, - the murder of Deagol
But that was the cost. - Smeagol could not obtain the Ring otherwise

Not as creative as some of the guesses so far, but I had to get rid of the tickle in my mind. Knowing the creativity of the riddles so far, it can't be that obvious...or can it? Great thread, keep it up!

EDIT: I thought I'd read the progress of the riddle carefully, but I see that someone already guessed the Ring. My apologies for the side trip. But I contend, based on the explanations above, that the Ring fits fairly well, if not exactly.

[mhagain]

I'm not sure if hints are necessary or wise at this stage. We've covered quite a lot of possibilities, and any hint that's useful may very well end up giving the entire thing away.

I still have this thing in the back of my mind going "dark enchanted river running underground" over and over again, but I'm going to ignore that just now and guess:

The Mouth of Sauron

Dark as night: he is a Black Numenoran, so check
Run far from light: more figurative that literal
Spell is upon me: did Sauron enchant or enslave him?
As you will now see: as you'll notice/observe
You'll beat me: Sauron was overthrown, and the mouth speaks for him
But I bring the woe: which the next bit
Your friend is now lost: Frodo, so check
But that was the cost: the cost of sending Shire-rats into Mordor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

First, sorry TM and sorry Thenamir and sorry mhagain, the answers are not correct, but nevertheless they were quite creative.

But now some important thing for all riddlers around here. I won't be posting any more hints. You don't need it. Trust me Your guesses here are almost enough for making alternative answers. But, only almost. Remember:

I am waiting for the person who posts a correct answer with proper explanation of all the lines (since a blind shot with random success might be unfair for those who have worked here so hard and so long). Don't worry, I don't want any super-hyper-precise explanations. Just try to think hard, make a conclusion, try to verify your answer going through all the lines of the riddle, and then post it.

I don't want the explanation just to bother you with it. I want to know that the person who posts the answer is really sure about it. I dare to say, as in all of my riddles, when the person really knows the correct answer, he/she will know it. Or at least would have no trouble of checking whether it fits - and after checking it, he/she would know.

Also I want just to ensure you that if you post something and it is not correct, I say an explicite "NO" to you. Thus, if some of you, like Thenamir, have some idea of an answer, you can verify whether the same answer was not already posted here and if I said "no" to it. This will save you some time.

[The Might]

Great riddle I must admit...I have been thinking about a possible answer the last few days, but nothing really good came to me until know

I personally think of the Dark Door, the entrance ot the Paths of the Dead

I'm as dark as night, - obviously since it is called the dark door
I run far from light, - it is found in a dark glen
spell is upon me - the prophecy made by an old man sitting there to Baldor of Rohan ([font=Verdana][size=-1]"The way is shut. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes.")[/size][/font]
as you will now see. - now means that time had come, Aragorn had arrived to fulfill the prophecy
You'll beat me, I know - just as above, it was time for Aragorn to pass the door and enter the Paths of the Dead
but I bring the woe: - I explain this below
your friend is now lost,- talking about Halabarad of the Dunedain, he himself says as he reaches the door [font=Verdana][size=-1]"This is an evil door, and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless..."[/size][/font]
but that was the cost. - the cost of Aragorn passing

As you said, I think now I feel I found the right answer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No. Although very good, TM. Great explanation, but there are moments which are not completely ok. Basically, "the spell is upon me" and "I bring the woe: your friend is now lost" are much more simple than how you portray them. Also if that were just the door, they certainly don't "run" (the path maybe, the doors don't). I wouldn't consider that "the way is shut" a spell, there is no spell, there are the Dead and to pass is a destiny, not a spell. Similarly with the friend. Much more simple.

I know 99% that the next answer will be THE answer.

[The Might]

well, I first thought of the Stone of Erech, but it doesn't run either...so maybe it's the King of the Dead himself
he seems to fit all the lines...though I am not so sure about the "I'm as dark as night" one...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I was not right in assuming that it'd be correct

No. I don't think the King of the Dead had something in common of bringing the woe and "your friend is now lost". If you think about Halbarad in this point, there was certainly not in any way the King of the Dead's active involvement in this. He didn't know about Halbarad's death (possibly), and therefore if he would be the narrator (since here narrator=object of guessing) of the riddle, he wouldn't say that.

I think I can divide the attempts to guess this riddle more or less to two parts: at start, most of the guesses have not yet reached the right stadium and were not ingenious yet enough to reach the right answer; later, the guesses were mostly overlarge - too much complicated, unnecessarily.

[Gil-Galad]

well the Witch-King fits in there for me... but it is probably far from the anwser...


i wonder if Legate can amuse us with anymore hints relating to the actual anwser...

[The Might]

Well...I have had no better idea till now
Maybe it is the secret tunnel in the Lonely Mountain

I'm as dark as night, - and it is
I run far from light, - beneath the Lonely Mountain
spell is upon me - the spell that it is only accesible when the it is opened with the key while the last sun ray on Durin's Day shines on it
as you will now see. - as was seen by the Dwarves and Bilbo
You'll beat me, I know - the Dwarves swore to return to Erebor one day
but I bring the woe: - but...
your friend is now lost, - The Dwarves thought that Bilbo was lost at first after hearing strange sounds
but that was the cost. - for entering Erebor and stealing something from Smaug's treasure

I really can't think of anything else, and since you said the net was closing tight when talking about the Paths of the Dead I thought it must be some tunnel
Since Moria already was mentioned I guessed I should at least give this a try...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sorry, but again, no, TM, and Gil-Galad, if your post was supposed to be a guess, I can't tell you anything to it, because as I said before, I want you to post explanation with it (reasons above).

Sorry, but I am afraid I cannot tell you anything more. No hints further. The situation is... well...

[Gil-Galad]

sigh... i would suggest hints to keep this thread moving or else it'll die


I'm as dark as night, - Witch-King is a "Black" rider
I run far from light, - ran away from Gandalf when he used his staff
spell is upon me - Bound by the one ring
as you will now see. - the elves noticed how the Nazgul were driven to the ring
You'll beat me, I know - deals with the propechy of "No man can kill the Witch-King"
your friend is now lost, - not quite sure about this yet, too early for me
but that was the cost. - again too early for me

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I cannot give more hints, because you even don't need them. And one thing I can provide you with to make the guessing easier for you, perhaps to save you some time. Here is the list of already posted answers which are not correct:

Ancalagon (Gil-Galad)
Aragorn (Gil-Galad)
Boromir (Gil-Galad)
the Dark Door, the entrance ot the Paths of the Dead (The Might)
Draugluin (The Might)
Durin's Bane (Shards of Narsil)
Frodo (Gil-Galad)
Girdle of Melian (mhagain)
Gurthang (mhagain)
King of the Dead (The Might)
Luthien's Hair Addressing The Two Remaining Silmarils In The Iron Crown (mhagain)
Maeglin (Gil-Galad)
The Mines of Moria (mhagain)
Morgoth (Shards of Narsil)
The Mouth of Sauron (mhagain)
the Nazgul (Gil-Galad)
the Ring (mhagain, later Thenamir)
Sauron (Gil-Galad)
the secret tunnel in the Lonely Mountain (The Might)
Túrin (The Might)
Ungoliant (The Might)
the Witch-King (The Might, later Gil-Galad)

Then:
1. I want you to post explanation of all the lines to be sure you just don't shoot randomly, since you could then send seven random guesses in one post, and this in my opinion is not the point of this riddling. I want to know you are not random guessing but you are posting because you know.
2. Sending the explanation, I am quite SURE, wouldn't be a problem for the person who stumbles upon the correct answer - since he/she could verify whether all the lines fit (I think TM might tell you about that from earlier riddles).
3. Try to look back in this thread, at the earlier stages of guessing this riddle. It seems to me your thoughts headed better way and you had generally more constructive thoughts there, I think.

That's all for now.

[The Might]

Please don't think I'm absent from the thread, I keep thinking of possible answers but somehow none really fit the riddle
But I have another idea: Cirith Ungol

I'm as dark as night, - Cirith Ungol was a dark place
I run far from light, - and ran far from light
spell is upon me - or so it was said by Gondorians when talking about Shelob's presence
as you will now see. - as seen by Frodo and Sam
You'll beat me, I know - Frodo and Sam were able to pass
your friend is now lost, - Frodo was taken captive
but that was the cost. - for attempting to take that road

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good try, TM, but no. The "answer" is telling the words: and it was the Gondorians who thought there is a spell, Cirith Ungol didn't certainly "think" there is a spell, it "knew" what lives inside it.

[Gil-Galad]

well i'll give another stab, not my best though

Orthanc

I'm as dark as night, - Dark stones
I run far from light, - Saruman turned it againest men
spell is upon me - Saruman working his magic
as you will now see. - as seen by Frodo and Sam
You'll beat me, I know - stumped here
your friend is now lost, - Saruman betrayed them
but that was the cost. - bah can't think of words here..



its probably wrong...

[Elmo]

It's not Eol by any chance

I'm as dark as night, - Hello he is called THE Dark Elf
I run far from light, - he doesn't like light
spell is upon me - I dunno he might be under the Doom of Mandos
as you will now see. - when his son causes the downfall of the last stronghold of the Noldor Gondolin
You'll beat me, I know - The foresight of Caranthir (or was it Celgorm?)
your friend is now lost, - Aredhel
but that was the cost. - FOR HIS REVENGE!!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, neither of your answers is correct.

[Garen LiLorian]

Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood

I'm as dark as night, - The waters were black
I run far from light, - In the depths of the wood, where no light reached
spell is upon me - The sleep spell
as you will now see. - When Bombur fell in
You'll beat me, I know - They pass the river
your friend is now lost, - But Bombur is lost in his dreams
but that was the cost. - Of passing the river

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

CORRECT.

Congratulations. I don't know if I shouldn't apologize now to those who have so long, hopelessly, wandering on this thread trying to come up with something, but I think the main problem is everyone "over-thinked". It is not that hard, I hope, or is it?

Anyway, good job, Garen LiLorian, please take over the thread.

P.S. I have also a slight feeling that people here in general don't read the Hobbit much, eh? Otherwise I cannot explain myself why would everyone seek Paths of Dead & co. behind it but not the river, which runs, let's say, more naturally (or at least it seems to me) than the underground corridors.

(Oof.)

[The Might]

I don't think this was very fair.
The answer was already given once by mhagain, without an explanation and Legate's answer made me think it is wrong.

"We're looking for a river or other natural feature here, people. I will now guess that it's either one of two things: the Enchanted River (Gulduin) in Mirkwood, or The Paths of the Dead."

I personally considered this as an answer a long time ago but I never posted it because I thought it was wrong judging by your answer to mhagain.
So either everyone answers with an explanation or you say nothing to answers without an explanation
I must admit I feel quite frustrated because after searching for the answer so long it turns out to be something I had considered long ago but as said above never thought of posting.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was afraid someone would say something like that. However, this is the situation I have been in since I made the decision not to mark mhagain's post as answered.
Why I did this (and I hope you catch it from my constant rumbling about posting reasons from then on) is that I was not sure whether mhagain is sure about what he is saying. It seemed just like a blind shot from him, as he said: 'There are parts of the riddle that I can't totally fit to them, however (specifically "you'll beat me" and "your friend is now lost"), but each one we rule out is one less to have to guess.' It seemed to me more likely at that time that mhagain is actually helping the "collective effort of solving" and not really guessing.
My biggest mistake, for which I apologize, was possibly that I didn't say just "yes mhagain, you are correct, now just post the correct explanation". Instead, I chose not to say in the post after that he is right nor wrong, but wanted from that point the explanations along with the answer. From when I made that decision, it went bad, because everyone started thinking about something else. However, I couldn't see your thoughts, so I didn't know if someone is not on right track. When TM returned to the Paths of the Dead pattern, I supposed he's on track and will try the Enchanted River next. And since Thenamir guessed the Ring even though it was already posted before, I tried to use it and told you that if he checked, he would see that I explicitely have said it is not right. I was hinting by it that there is one answer which does not have explicite "no" to it.

Finally, I know it was silly, I knew it turned wrong, but it was too late to suddenly interrupt riddling saying for example "Ok, the current Gil-Galad's guess is wrong, but in fact mhagain was right about a week ago, so he wins." I apologize again to those who would feel offended and I promise you if there'll ever be next time, I'd try to avoid these things. Well, at least for all my riddles for all the times: Post only one answer at a time, since posting two means you don't know, and I still stick with the thought that my riddles are quite transparent when you happen to know the correct answer (i.e. if you know the correct answer, you couln't be unsure of it).

[The Might]

It's not your fault actually Legate.
I also apologize for posting Draugluin as an answer without exact explanations, I was going to do that later, but seeing it is wrong anyway I didn't bother.
If the rules had been followed, and explanations had been posted for each guess something like this would have been avoided and the riddle already solved.
Anyway, I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally will try to only post guesses with explanations from now on. Otherwise solving riddles is pretty much pointless.
All in all, good riddle and congrats GarenLiLorian for solving it

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, it could have been even better riddle had not there been this unfortunate issue about it

Anyway, I am glad that you (at least) don't hold grudge against me, and I hope the others who have watched this thread or trying to answer do not as well (especially mhagain, for obvious reasons).

But not to forget the main purpose of this thread, it would be Garin LiLorian's turn now. We are eagerly awaiting!

[Garen LiLorian]

Huh. I hadn't even considered the possibility of winning and thus, having to come up with a riddle. Ah well. I've posted this before, but it was a long, long time ago... so no using the search function to cheat, 'kay?


My treachery leads to your great deeds,
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm.
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to.
My protection lasts only tonight.

Who am I, and who am I talking to? Extra kudos if you can tell me when. (It is LotR related)

[The Might]

Well, the only idea I had was Saruman and Lotho

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - it was through Saruman's treachery that
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - the ruffians locked Lobelia up
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - not really sure what is meant by this
My protection lasts only tonight. - he then ordered Grima to kill him

[Garen LiLorian]

'Fraid not. Also, this riddle is pretty obscure... 'because of me you had to' especially is a bit of a stretch.

[Elmo]

Is it Sauron talking to Gollum?

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - the treachery of Sauron by betraying the Elven Smiths creating the one ring led to Gollum getting it so he can perform his great deeds
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - Sauron's ring led to Gollum getting cast from his family
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - This could mean either when the Orcs sprung Gollum from the Elves or when he allowed Gollum to walk free of Mordor.
My protection lasts only tonight. - Sauron rescued Gollum from the Elves but if he if ever caught by Orcses he will get killed

[Garen LiLorian]

I like this answer, but it isn't right.
"Protection lasts only tonight" means quite literally only one specific night.

[Gil-Galad]

Melkor to Hurin


My treachery leads to your great deeds, - without Melkor betraying the Valar, Hurin might not have accomplished what he did
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - killed Hurins relatives, but did not kill Hurin
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - Hurin escaped from Angband, and melkor let him
My protection lasts only tonight. - Melkor allowed Hurin to travel his lands after he left, but once caught he'll be killed

[Garen LiLorian]

Another great but wrong answer. I think you guys are far cleverer than I am. Again, 'protection lasts only tonight' refers to one literal night, not simply a short space of time.

[Gil-Galad]

Saruman to Gandalf?

My treachery leads to your great deeds, - without saruman betraying, gandalf might not have turned into the white
I've broken your family, then protected you from harm. - seperated gandalf from frodo and radagast and so on
Because of me you safely escaped, because of me you had to. - saruman's greivance with sauron allowed gandalf more leeway
My protection lasts only tonight. - gave Gandalf a day to join him


i'll give a better guess later